Okay, I see that point. That kind of does make sense.


Uhm, what was the BT april fool's? Could I have a link please?

I'm inclined to believe it's a joke since if it was a preview it's come out a long time before release, which isn't normal.

I have to admit that I wouldn't want a PC dragon, but the stats are useful if you wanted to know exactly what a dragon Johnson could or would do, and so you can put up a reasonably balanced NPC dragon against your Prime Runner group. It really would be annoying to have them swat it in the first IP, but equally you don't want to swat all of them in the first IP.

As for AI possessed toasters... Howdee Doodly Doo

Which could feasibly be part of the joke considering the amount of whining that people make about missed release dates.

hermit: here you go

Kinda falls into the same vein as the dragon thing, really.
Less subtle, though.
I found it quite funny, although I'm not into BT at all...

Another reason why I think it's a joke is the inclusion of obsidimens.
If the devs decided to add obsidimens to the game, they wouldn't just insert them as a new PC race. They'll have them appear in a plot book. Adding a whole new metahuman race (not just a metavariant) is a big deal.

Joke aside, it seems to be a pretty solid base for house ruling Dragon PCs.

First off, I agree completely with you that dragons as PCs are going to go a long way toward making SR lame. But I will play devil's advocate and point out that Shadowbeat provided rules for rock star characters, and then went on to devote much (maybe even most?) of the book to the concept. And Shadowbeat STILL managed to be one of the most awesome SR books out there. So I'm not saying dragons are going to be great fun, I'm just saying that a book could include them and still not be ALL bad.

But back to bashing dragon PCs, the "young dragon" theory doesn't seem to make sense to me. Isn't it established that dragons start out as wyverns? Or has that not been the case since SR1, and got retconned to make way for ED stuff?

Been busy for few days and logged on to make a comment about the twitter feed. Way too much gushing over the new Battle tech book and not nearly enough about unwired.

And I come across the "RC" preview. Hmm Obsidianmen and dragons as PC's. I came to SR for its mix of man,machine and magic and lately it seems to be more man and machine and less magic. Why not add such things for a more awakened angle. I could see having an optional set of rules presented in a book full of optional stuff showing us how to use dragons and others as pc's. Joke or not the idea is interesting.

While I'm ranting about flavor unwired is always mentioned as the last "core" book. (Show us an unwired preview! ;P) What about the critter book, lackluster in 3rd edition it deserves to return to a core status.




I've played since the day SR1 landed on my FLGS's shelves. To the best of my knowledge, wyverns were never mentioned as being young dragons.

Reactions (for I have more than one):

• PHEW!
• Heh heh heh, that was a good April fools joke (must have been to get this kind of reaction)
• Now I am even more impatient to see the REAL Runners Companion preview! Would be cool if you posted it April 2nd 2009
• Go-go-gadget "Unwired"!

I think the BP cost is fair for the racial package. The problem, though is cramming that into a 400BP build.

Most dragons see metahumans as a resource to be hoarded and manipulated, like livestock, or perhaps power tools. Some might look at metahumans with curiosity and amusement, like housepets. A 400BP metahuman isn't significantly more impressive to a dragon than a 200BP meta.

A 400BP dragon is a different story. To a dragon, great or otherwise, dragons exist in a way metahumans don't. Or perhaps it's better to day they matter in a way we don't. I think all dragons see all other dragons as a threat to their hoard. An "ally" just means less of a threat.

I think a 400BP dragon will quickly be murdered, or more likely, dominated by another dragon.

The game is based on you having roughly 375-400 points after you pick your race. I think it's only reasonable to do the same for dragons. So, unless I start a 700 BP game, I wouldn't allow dragons.

Agreed.

And... mildly disappointed.

Yeah, I'd have liked it if Dragons were put to PC status. Would have made them less idolised.

The theory came up (in-game) in "Creatures of Barsaive". It has never been stated officially as true.

I see someone has already posted the BT April Fool's, so I won't repost, but I have to say (and this is a scary thought), but what if the joke is that it isn't a joke?

"haha, they posted about powerups on April Fool's, that's a good joke,"

Meanwhile the Devs laugh because it isn't a joke, and everyone is going to think that it is until the book comes out...

Mmmm....paranoia.

Maybe just the obsidimen paragraph is a joke

As for life cycle, it goes

Hatchling (first 200 years or so, doesn't leave the nest really, watched over by a Guardian), Adolescent (Wyvern? wild and unpredictable, almost feral 50-100 years), Metemorphosis (5-10 years), Adult Dragon (2000+ years, this is what RC seems to have stats for), Great Dragon (Based on the ED book, I don't think DotSW gives as much details, and the Wyvern is considered to be linked to the Dragons, but not actually a Dragon...kinda like humans and chimps).

It's also mentioned in the Earthdawn Dragons book, IIRC.

Vasdenjas takes great exception to being asked if the adolescent dragons were wyverns, but I believe one of the other books puts for the possibility that the "Deny wyverns are dragons" is to protect them. Since they're at their most vulnerable then, dragon hunters could target them specifically, and the denial is one big smokescreen.

For the record, I got totally pwnd by this. Teach me to be busy at work and not really follow gaming news for a while.

Hilarious.



The exact opposite of my thoughts.

The C.O.W. (Complete Obliteration Warhead) is an advanced weapons systems by Ares. An orbital prototype is rumoured to be fully functional.

So any mention of wyrvens as dragons is from Earthdawn references? I always thought wyrvens were looked after like you'd look after your idiot cousin. Dragons of the Sixth World has a birth,youth and adulthood sections with no mention of wyrvens. I have always considered DotSW to be the authority for SR dragons.

Paranormal Animals of North America. Looking back on it, it's in the shadowtalk. I guess I just liked the idea (I LOVE explanations for dragons and such that don't involve the 4th World), and have just been thinking that in my games, that particular shadowtalk is reliable.

Well there have already been some oblique references to them being active in the Sixth World in the shadowcomments of a couple of the sourcebooks so you never know.

...precisely. Considered putting in a link myself but didn't want to milk the joke further.

...bad cow pun

Wyvern vs. Dragon fans might also be interested in the back of Paranormal Animals of Europe, in the description of European wyverns.

You, sir, understand exactly what I meant when I was talking about toasters.
"You paid 2000 dollars for a toaster with AI... And you don't even like toast!"

LET THEM EAT...... TOAST!!

Possessed toasters?Amityville Toaster!

My current feelings on the dragon PCs is thus: I hope dragon PCs do get a few pages in Runner Companion. Will I ever use them? I don't know. But I might, and enough other people will that it is worth a few pages as an optional (remember, the whole point of a companion book is to add the wacky optional stuff that shouldn't be in the core rules) zany character option. No one is saying, "Hey, in 5th edition you can play an Elf, a Troll, or a Dragon, hur, hur" You don't like it? Great. I'm not sure I do either. (As in, I'm trying to keep my inner fanboy in check) But some people will like it, some people will use it, and if it's done well they'll have a lot of fun. It's worth a few pages.

Now anyone who shows up for a SR game with a dragon PC all made and ready to go expecting to play it deserves to get laughed away from the table, but c'mon. It would be a lot of fun for some people in the right game, and if done well is probably worth 6-10 pages in a book full of zany character options in the first place.

As for demystifying dragons: Batman is cool because he doesn't have super powers. Damien Knight is cool, not because of some mystical alignment completely beyond his control, but because he's a cool guy who did cool things. And a Lofwyr can be cool because he's clever and savvy enough to survive for thousands of years, rather than because dragon=unstatted inherent awesomeness. I'd prefer if, rather than being a Great Dragon making you inherently awesome, hard-earned awesomeness is a prerequisite to surviving and becoming a GD.

I must also agree with Adarael that just because it is in the novel doesn't mean it should be in the game. That is kind of the point of the novels.


The idea is not that they go outside of "what is a shadowrun?" they go outside of what is "metahuman"? Drakes/Shapeshifters/Ghouls/Metas/Metavariants/Otaku (now TMs) are all at least close to being human. Dragons are just a different realm. I guess it comes down to how do you realistically role-play them? I don't know how since I'm not a dragon and I don't think with the same logic they do. After that point it boils down to "Sweet, I'm a dragon!"

If you want to play a dragon, GM.

(I would like to see some functional rules for Drake PC's though)

All right, since we have the information, I figured, why not? Let's try out the rules. So here we go.

Please keep in mind that I'm still kind of new to SR4th, so if there are things screwed up, critique me lightly.

Pytho, Leviathan Archaeologist

See, this is the sort of coolness that can come from dragons. Thumbsup!

Doesn't seem like a runner, though. What, no shapechange?

a indiana jones style campaign?

This was primarily an exercise to see what I could do with the system and the 400 BP limit; right now he could be used as either a resource or contact, or even as a sort of "decker" who hangs back and maintains overwatch and explains things. In my head I was thinking of someone like Morgan Freeman's character in Kiss the Girls (I think that's who it was) who watched his partner through a camera and examined sites that way.

The 1.2 revision would mess around with the BPs to give him shapechange and some rudimentary physical and gun skills, like athletics and firearms. Maybe I'll pull that off today.

400 BP is definitely a squeeze though, as you can tell.

wow, get to a thread late...

1 see now the thing is, let's say this wasn't a joke, and the devs were just
"hey this is fun, let's throw them a bone and show them something we worked on and sure it isn't polished but hey, it's fun"
So what do people do? Bitch and whine about typos. I would figure that would make them gunshy about dropping any hints early.

2 Haezlich (sp) had a spell lock that allowed him to shape change to a human.

3 someone mentioned ED, LivingRoom games isnt doing ED anymore redbrick is

4 wyverns aren't really dracoforms, atleast according to the SR1&2 stuff

5 talkie toaster is fine but he's no Bob the Skutter!
*pats his skutter toy that came with series 8*

Well, LRG still holds an ED-licence which allows them to do 2nd edition stuff. Not that they have done much lately....
RB has another licence and can release whatever they want, as long as it isn't labeled "2nd edition". They're even planning a 3rd edition, but don't expect that in the next two years.

people seems to have a need for finding stuff to complain about. i even see people over on tech forums complaining about a news site spelling iphone with a large I and small p...

Your thinking of the movie The Bone Collector with Denzel Washington and Angelina Jolie.

Thank you! I couldn't think of his name, blanked, and went for Morgan Freeman instead.

Why is a GM able to roleplay a dracoform correctly, while a player isn't?

Playing a convincing sapient being, no matter which species, always requires forethought, imagination and empathy.
I don't see how playing a dragon is any harder than playing a human.
The dragon is more alien, of course (that's where the "imagination" part comes in), but as nobody at the table has ever met one, there's nothing to judge my performance against.

Depends on what you mean by tricked out. We've been around that power level with our longtime Earthdawn group and we wouldn't have tried it. In the FASA version (we stopped playing before anything else came out) we were running around with legendary level equipment, at about 3 to 3.4 million legend points. Everyone was multi-disciplined. We houseruled you could tie threads to your own pattern items for the boost. The in character responses to being asked to fight him would have varied, the out of character would have been along, "F you I'm going the other way."

First, to those who think it is a joke: If it was, someone would have come in and verfied it was joke!

Second, for those who think this preview is way early, I think we can safely say that the Runner Companion is on a par with the BBB for its importance, so they might start the preeviews for it while it is still in development.

Third, in the Twitter, I remember reading from Adam that he had laid out pages for the Runner Companion. I think we can say this are pre-proof pages, like the Alpha pages we got for Total Warfare and Tech Manual. In which case, I think they should explicitly state(Synner..paying attention?) that the Dragon Tradition uses logic as its Drain Stat, instead of implying it with the line about their higher willpower, logic, and magic allows them stronger spells then most.

Fourth, for those who say that Obsidimen should have their own plot book to introduce them..well, how do we know they aren't going to? Wasn't there the mention of an 'undisclosed plot book' being worked on? And, of course, in The Ancient Files, Ancient lists a reference to something that he said could be Obsidimen.

A thread which has finally enticed me to fall out of 'lurker mode' and actually post in a while. I hope the devs and other readers take this as it is meant. Constructive criticism, devil's advocatism, and a rare chance to try and throw some feedback at something before it's published. I don't believe this is an april's fool prank based on the day late.

Well, just to toss this out... I started by doing moon-hawk's math as well on the attributes... and then the innate abilities as well. By raw the numbers it strikes me as potentially unbalanced... but the more I thought about the problems with playing a dragon... the less powerful it struck me as. It also struck me that they're huge karma sinks, even worse than the previous title holder the mystic adept.

As has been pointed out... while the stats are nice... they're not really godly... and starting out while you can manage 4-7 dice pools in just about everything... you don't really have any overpowering dice pools compared to guys coming out of chargen with 10+ pools. Shadowrun is generally not kind to generalists. The caps are nice... but this is the mystic adept problem writ large... the karma amounts needed to raise them are obscene as well. You're looking at 18karma for your fist stat bumps, then 21... even with 100 karma you're probably sinking that mostly into mental stats and skills.


It strikes me as slightly powerful, but the offside is the risks such a player would be exposed to. As a sin-less resident you're almost every talisleggers wet dream to harvest. So much so, I wouldn't even trust my fellow PC's in-character to know that I'm a dragon. And if you do have a SIN... I don't even know where to begin that one being a registered dragon in the public databases. Dunky being obviously powerful and well-known enough in his own right for this not to be an issue, but for a low-power dracoform, probably a death sentence or slavery sentence. Dragons are known for manipulating not for being manipulated. Frankly, I would expect 'the norm' to be a fake-sinned shapeshifted favired form.

At this point I'm not quite clear on the rules... I read the shapechange spell as body score of "+2 greater" or "less" not +-2... the text is unnecessarily ambiguous. Why is it authors never state things nice and clear such as body stat of assumed form must be within 2 points of your own body score if that's what they meant, and I'm pretty sure the fiction has cases of shamans turning into birds and rats. But in any case, the dracoform section I think would overrule this as it explicitly states that dracoforms can use the shapechange spell to polymorph into metahumans. To me this would be a clear 'legalistic' exception to the rule provided that the form chosen was metahuman. It also strikes me as an absolute necessity for a dracoform to be able to function.

Two, shapechange refers to the critters section for stats. The stats given in the critters section are average stats not minimum stats. Does this mean if I choose human, the bod/str/agi/reac is 3 average +1 per hit on the spell? I take the average stats on a troll then to be 7bod/7str/2agi/3rea if shapechanged wihle taking a -2 penalty for sustaining the spell (or spending precious BP on a force3 sustaining focus 30k+3BP to bind 9BP). That to me seems the most reasonable reading of the spell. Again assuming 6-8 dice... that's probably 2 maybe 3 hits...

If you are shapechanged... background counts and dispelling could completely ruin your day. Your shapechange drops once and you can lose all that hard work towards keeping your identity a secret... especially if some astral gent dispels while you're not assensing!

While shapechanged a lot of the problems such as obscene str go away... at best the char is probably no stronger/beefier than a non-cybered troll shaman.

While in natural form, the claw/bite attack has a set DV. I see nothing stopping the use of a custom dragon specific weapon or even unarmed stun damage based on str/2. A western dragon starting at 18S tail slap/wing buffet/claw fist is still a mean threat. At the same time.. the dragon needs some kind of progression and lets face it the karma cost to raise str alone is nigh prohibitive! (you really want to spend 93 karma to raise your str from 30 to 31? especially if it started at say 20).

Medical care... HAH... how many medical services you know who can service dragons... even first aid is dicey. There should probably be a rule raising the penalty for working on dragons even while shapechanged from -2 for awakened by another -2 for a -4 medical penalty baseline. As a dragon do you REALLY trust docwagon to keep your 'sample' safe and secure.

While shapechanged would a normal trodenet work... I'd say no as I'd say it would need the extra cost of the 'draconic' software upgrade to handle the mind-reading. I'd say it's probably smarter to treat the 'special nanotrodes' as special software to interpret the dragons mind. In which case then the two costs make sense. 50k for the software/special trodes, and then 20x normal cost for the special trodenet to fit them in while in natural form/normal trodenet while in shapeshifted form.

Are innate powers active while shapechanged. never said, but I don't see why not. Or are the 'innates' while in dragonform, and the unique's available all the time, in which case they basically function as a preset spell list for most intents and purposes? EG: a trollshaped dragon wearing body armor would be one hell of a tank. But really that's not much different than the 'brick' the troll thread showing how clearly all cyberarmor stacks can get (that before even stackable armor in arsenal and armor upgrades came into play).

Is the innate 'elemental attack' of the classic breath weapon variety of legend. Or is it more akin to the spirit power which manifests in a manner appropriate to your whim. (I'm fond of the dwarven force6 mini-thor guardian spirit myself.. with a lightning hammer and elemental attack (electricity) when he throws it). If so, not much point outside of overcasting ability to learning a spell like acid stream or firebolt except to diversify your natural attack with alternate damage types.

Another problem, how do you appear astrally when shapechanged... in your assumed form or your true form? I'd probably treat the dragon's assensing test as akin to that for figuring out if a character is a technomancer at 4 hits and even then unless the char had knowledge or dragons and technomancers just leave it as there is something not quite right about the aura until they can figure it out. People have a hard time with cyberzombies etc. too as they're not well understood by most as rare occurances outside most peoples experience.

Given the above, 'Masking' is on my short list of things to pick up ASAP. In fact, it's probably the first karma buy. Probably even 'signature masking' which largely gets ignored.

A section to the GM on how to keep a dragon PC paranoid would probably be very good as well. As well as serve as a cautionary device to players trying to pull one over. Really, you think those covert ops nutjobs who 'if they know my face/name/whatever, they know too much are schizo'... a low-power dragon PC should absolutely put them to shame with it's paranoia and obsession with not being noticed.

The bits about personality quirks/flaws are nice. But not really enough guidance there I'd think.

Ultimately, this really requires the devs to flesh out what a low-power 400BP's rough place in the world is. If it's a bare wyrm barely out on it's own... what are it's major threats... how does it's family play into things, while mommy dragon may have just booted junior out to find his own footing. She probably doesn't want him used/abused by the first dragon to come along. What taboos/traditions does draconic society have to those lines? Frankly as my friends can tell you I generally shun playing what I see as blatently overpowered classes/feats. Normal societies basic rules of grow, learn a salable skill, get a job, work until retirable, rot don't quite apply here (not that shadowrunners fit that, but at least we understand or should have an impetus for why they're shadowrunners instead of wage-slaves). What motivates a young dracoform?

I wouldn't see how a dragon caught in questionable activities like running would be TOO far fetched. These are rather young and weak dragons here. The sort that if they try to jander into a town and take over like Ghostwalker did they'll be rendered into a king-sized smear on the ground. In fact a whole lotta things can make a a beast like this go splat, you might make the common man freak out, but a tricked out sammie will perforate you in no time flat. You certainly won't get any help from your fellow dragons either. Dragons have a darwinian outlook of survival of the fittest. If you can't manage on your own then you aren't fit to be a dragon.

So, let's presume a wyrm wakes up late, he's got almost nothing of value being a weak dragon. He's got minimal currency in this world, and considering the dragon hording mentality this'll probably rankle him to no end. Now he could try to hire out to a corp, but a wagemage probably has more versatility and wouldn't require facilities to be redesigned to accomodate him. There's always crime syndicates, but I'm certain the underbosses or whoever will be leery of a dragon working the ranks in their syndicate and liable to bump the drake off if he gets to suspicious. I certainly'd be leery of a dragon in my ranks for that sorta thing, more trouble then he's worth. I can see the same mentality biting you in the rear in the corps. They may be happy to take you initially, but when they find you to be a youngling with poor experience in modern day stuff they'll probably relagate you to guard duty or some other dead end job.

Besides if you're someplace like Denver, you sure as hell wanna stay under Ghostwalker's radar, dragons are territorial beasts. He doesn't mind Metahumans in his domain but who knows how he reacts to a Dragon who starts to act like he owns the place.

So you got three options, sell out to a corporation or crime syndicate and be beholden to uncouth and unworthy metahumans settling for mediocre pay for someone of your stature, become a shadowrunner, do some menial tasks and build up some street cred and save your money biding your time until you get connected enough and gain enough resources to become a power player, or sell bits and pieces of your body on the black market for money.

I seriously doubt a dragon will go for option one unless he can get a leadership position early. I'm sure dragons probably won't like working under lesser beings, but when you're a shadowrunner you at least get the illusion of control. I'm sure a shadowrunner dragon is going to be a bitter song of a <female dog> however and would make a miserable face.

The rules are intriguing however I probably wouldn't make one myself at least not now. It looks like more trouble then its worth. Like something that'd be entertaining for 1 or 2 games and then a bother on the long haul. However, if I was running and a player tried to pull that, I'd allow it, like I said in an earlier post I certainly wouldn't pull punches, and the rest of the players probably wouldn't either. Being a paranoid bunch of runners tends to get a team harsh on guys who make them stand out and don't pull their weight. I saw a shadowrunner team evict one PC because of several bone-headed moves as a metahuman varient that left the team standing out like a sore thumb and then he failed to contribute when needed. Like I said before, playing a Dragon is not for the faint hearted, the sixth world will literally eat up a young dragon like that.

Consider the fact that dragons have a nigh infinite life span, I'm sure the various dragons out there have laid numerous eggs and sired numerous young in all the Aeons of their existence. Yet look at the amount of truly powerful aged dragons out there. They are few and far between, which means a whole lotta young'uns never make it to maturity. I see this much like those nature shows where some big predator, like a Crocodile lays a bunch of eggs. And from those eggs a bunch of baby snappers emerge and they are pretty low on the foodchain and at a young age they end up fending for themselves in the wild, most of them dying in the process, hiding in nooks and crannies snatching only small chance meals as they come by and if they are lucky they might be that one lucky bugger that manages to grow so large that nothing else will dare try to eat it and then it can live the easier life. I see dragon young rearing as something akin to that, they may raise their offspring at least until they can fend for themselves but after that they are probably on their own.

Of course the beauty of it all is the GM has the right to say no to any of this. It's better that the yes/no decisions be left in the hands of the GM rather then the developer. That way you give players and GM's options and let them sort out how to play it in the end. That way, if someone for some reasons wants to do a dragon only campaign, it's all laid out and ready to go. If you aren't interested in dragons it's easy enough to ignore. Personally, I'm mildly interested and find this to be an intriguing test of the flexibility of the SR4 BP system.

IMHO Adding things like Obsidianman and Dragon to Companion would be added selling points for me. Past versions were hit and miss with optional things our groups did'nt get much use from. As a fan a GM things like these get my interest.

Great marketing campaign don't say if its a joke or not till release day.

Mmm-hmm. You also know what he said about moderation, right? In SR4, specialization and excess go hand in hand.

...make that...Powdered Toast

How cowardish.

My group is around 11th circle and tracking down Ubyr at the moment - and I'm bloody sure they'll go against Big V soon.

Man, I'm getting old.

My first thought was "This has to be a joke. if it's not, jesus, CGL is going down the tubes..." Then I remembered that I was the guy who designed playable rules for Windlings, Centaurs, Wendigos, Vampires, Gargoyles (the Disney variety), and Highlander style Immortals. So, umm. yeah.

And worse, after thinking about it a while, honestly... In Bull's original campaign, a low-power lesser dracoform would have fit into the game pretty well, really. After 6 years and 600+ karma, excess really had become the name of that game. Hell, considering some of the regular NPCs and occasional PC's that sat in from time to time, it wouldn't have even been the weirdest thing at the table.

So, hey, cool. I probably won't use it in a normal game, and as a GM I don;t need rules to tell me how to build NPCs, but I could see a time and a place for them, in the long run.

And Obsidimen are long, long overdue. I tried like hell to get them into Year of the Comet, but we ended up settling on SURGE instead. Ahh well.

Bull

sidetrack:
One thing to remember about Heinlein does kind of put his quote in perspective. He wrote the book that quote came from simply to "show" that Polyamourism and incest were both enlightened and workable situations.


edit: because me grammar good very not