A 1st April joke that didn't go well for the SR 4-guys, sadly.
Full Version: Here be dragons
I think the joke's really just on the developers. We ridiculize them for being always late with publishing stuff, and we also simultaneously take into consideration that this might be real because of their bad grammatics and many typos...
A 1st April joke that didn't go well for the SR 4-guys, sadly.
A 1st April joke that didn't go well for the SR 4-guys, sadly.
QUOTE (raverbane @ Apr 2 2008, 04:40 PM) 
The reason I am hoping so hard for this to be a joke is the fact it is so poorly written and so full of typos and grammerical errors.
Sweet, sweet irony.
QUOTE (Particle_Beam @ Apr 2 2008, 05:25 PM)
I think the joke's really just on the developers. We ridiculize them for being always late with publishing stuff, and we also simultaneously take into consideration that this might be real because of their bad grammatics and many typos...
A 1st April joke that didn't go well for the SR 4-guys, sadly.
A 1st April joke that didn't go well for the SR 4-guys, sadly.
...yeah, but look at the date and time of the posting...
QUOTE
This entry was posted on Wednesday, April 2nd, 2008 at 18:00:25
...if so, someone needs to reset their computer's "Time and Date"
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 2 2008, 08:24 PM)
...and if anyone insists on playing a dragon I will politely remind them that there has been a sudden quantum leap in fully autonomous precision targeted rapid fire Thor Strike capability ushering in the era of TungstenStorm™ technology
...brought to you by the forward thinking folks at Aeon Technologies).
...brought to you by the forward thinking folks at Aeon Technologies).
well, at least it's not a cow =P
anyways, just because it's a day late doesn't mean it's not a joke. honestly, all the signs point to this being a joke. the companion is at the very least behind unwired and whatever the next location book is, and maybe a few others as well =S
besides, rules for dragons as PCs should *clearly* be in running wild. c'mon guys, get with the program! =P
QUOTE (Jaid @ Apr 2 2008, 07:53 PM)
well, at least it's not a cow =P
I so wish it were a COW! I would play Bessy the Hellcow in an instant!!
More Cowbell!!
Don't the rules seem really... balanced for a joke? It's like they spent a lot of time making sure that dragons would be cool, but far from overpowered, by giving them such an enormous BP cost. I'd expect that in a joke, they'd be really ultra broken and horrible, and it would be really obvious. If it's a joke, it's delivered in an absolutely serious deadpan way... And it would be the first April 2nd April Fools joke I've ever heard of. 
QUOTE (raverbane @ Apr 2 2008, 08:57 PM)
I so wish it were a COW! I would play Bessy the Hellcow in an instant!!
More Cowbell!!
More Cowbell!!
i was referring to the tungstenstorm actually... you know... orbital bovine bombardment? i suppose they could be using cows made of tungsten, but i have my doubts
In my games, certain cows have the innate spell (Levitation(Self)) power and fly around all the time. Cows falling on characters aren't an arbitrary punishmend for players stealing my snacks but the mere result of mana static in the lower atmosphere causing bovine spell disruption 
QUOTE (Jaid)
i was referring to the tungstenstorm actually... you know... orbital bovine bombardment? i suppose they could be using cows made of tungsten, but i have my doubts
...actually we experimented with tungsten bone laced cows but it only made for a minor improvement in the resultant impact. Furthermore Aeon R&D has concluded employing standard tungsten rods still has an economic advantage over laced bovines at this juncture. However, Project BS-X (BovineStorm™) is still undergoing testing as I write.
Aeon Labs
It's not magic, just superior technology.
QUOTE (raverbane @ Apr 3 2008, 02:57 AM)
I so wish it were a COW! I would play Bessy the Hellcow in an instant!!
More Cowbell!!
More Cowbell!!
well, there is allways this:
http://starcraft2.com/features/terran/taurenmarine.xml
...mmmm cows with guns...
QUOTE (raverbane @ Apr 2 2008, 06:40 PM)
Ok, let me say that I really hope this is some kind of late April's Fool joke. It would make sense it is late. It is coming from a game publisher we all know they never do anything on time. The reason I am hoping so hard for this to be a joke is the fact it is so poorly written and so full of typos and grammerical errors. But, given the plethora of poor grammer in Arsenal, I just don't know. I will post a few examples.
"Evidently a dragon is exempt from Piloting Tests to move about normally,"
Evidently? Why is that disclaimer even there in a non-fluff rule sentence?
"Every time a dragon loses Essence to implantation he must make a Willpower + Magic Test with a Threshold of 3. If he fails he automatically gains a 10 point Mental Negative Quality."
Every dragon has a combined base Willpower + Magic of 11. Just raise either one more point and they can beat this with just buying successes.
"Fortunately the development of AR has made it easier than ever to interface with technology—though this requires specialized nanotrodes custom-made and configured to the draconic brain which are both expensive and difficult to acquire on open market (Cost: 50,000Y and Availability 20) but might be possible to procure from certain corporations in return for services rendered."
Then the very next paragraph on the next page contradicts this!!
"Dragons in their natural form have some difficulty using trode-nets, since they must be custom-designed for them, costing 20 times the normal amount."
"All cyber, bio, nano and geneware augmentations for dragons must be custom-designed, of course, making them automatically the equivalent of deltaware with an additional cost multiplier of 4 (for a total multiplier of 12 times the normal cost)."
Last time I checked, deltaware costs x10. And 4+10 doesnt equal 12.
"kept to dragonkind. which allows higher level"
Need to capitalize the 'W' in which and the black box isn't the correct size for the paragraph.
"Evidently a dragon is exempt from Piloting Tests to move about normally,"
Evidently? Why is that disclaimer even there in a non-fluff rule sentence?
"Every time a dragon loses Essence to implantation he must make a Willpower + Magic Test with a Threshold of 3. If he fails he automatically gains a 10 point Mental Negative Quality."
Every dragon has a combined base Willpower + Magic of 11. Just raise either one more point and they can beat this with just buying successes.
"Fortunately the development of AR has made it easier than ever to interface with technology—though this requires specialized nanotrodes custom-made and configured to the draconic brain which are both expensive and difficult to acquire on open market (Cost: 50,000Y and Availability 20) but might be possible to procure from certain corporations in return for services rendered."
Then the very next paragraph on the next page contradicts this!!
"Dragons in their natural form have some difficulty using trode-nets, since they must be custom-designed for them, costing 20 times the normal amount."
"All cyber, bio, nano and geneware augmentations for dragons must be custom-designed, of course, making them automatically the equivalent of deltaware with an additional cost multiplier of 4 (for a total multiplier of 12 times the normal cost)."
Last time I checked, deltaware costs x10. And 4+10 doesnt equal 12.
"kept to dragonkind. which allows higher level"
Need to capitalize the 'W' in which and the black box isn't the correct size for the paragraph.
And....
"Metahuman Form
While unable to shift into a human form at will as great dragons do, dracoforms are capable of using magic to assume metahuman (and other) forms, but it is not an innate ability for them, meaning that the dragon must possess the Shapechange spell and must be sustain and maintain it for it to be persistent."
If this isnt a joke (heaven forbid) I guess that settles the on again / off again arguement about whether or not metahumans are critters for the sake of Shapechange. But....
"Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less than her own."
Given the the base body for dragons ranges from 9-12, I guess dragons won't be using thier Shapechange spell to become humans or elves.
QUOTE (raverbane @ Apr 2 2008, 09:57 PM)
And....
"Metahuman Form
While unable to shift into a human form at will as great dragons do, dracoforms are capable of using magic to assume metahuman (and other) forms, but it is not an innate ability for them, meaning that the dragon must possess the Shapechange spell and must be sustain and maintain it for it to be persistent."
If this isnt a joke (heaven forbid) I guess that settles the on again / off again on whether or not metahumans are critters for the sake of Shapechange. But....
"Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less than her own."
Given the the base body for dragons ranges from 9-12, I guess dragons won't be using thier Shapechange spell to become humans or elves.
"Metahuman Form
While unable to shift into a human form at will as great dragons do, dracoforms are capable of using magic to assume metahuman (and other) forms, but it is not an innate ability for them, meaning that the dragon must possess the Shapechange spell and must be sustain and maintain it for it to be persistent."
If this isnt a joke (heaven forbid) I guess that settles the on again / off again on whether or not metahumans are critters for the sake of Shapechange. But....
"Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal) critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating is 2 points greater or less than her own."
Given the the base body for dragons ranges from 9-12, I guess dragons won't be using thier Shapechange spell to become humans or elves.
The simple solution is the use the rules in Street Magic to create a custom spell that gives you the appearance of any metahuman race, I would think.
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 2 2008, 07:04 PM)
...mmmm cows with guns...
Why am I thinking of Dana Lyons?
Oh, yeah, that's why.
QUOTE (Larme @ Apr 2 2008, 08:02 PM)
Don't the rules seem really... balanced for a joke? It's like they spent a lot of time making sure that dragons would be cool, but far from overpowered, by giving them such an enormous BP cost. I'd expect that in a joke, they'd be really ultra broken and horrible, and it would be really obvious. If it's a joke, it's delivered in an absolutely serious deadpan way... And it would be the first April 2nd April Fools joke I've ever heard of.
Why do they require balancing? They are dragons! They are balanced in this world by very well connected organizations out to kill them, opportunists dying to make a mil on all the reagents their bodies provide, and by rarity. I am not saying it is not possible for a PC to play one, but I don't see how you could logically fit one into a standard campaign.
GM: "LS shows up"
Player: "I eat them"
This is how dragons should be. What are the legal ramifications for a dragon? It was always my impression that they did whatever the f*ck they wanted, and were only held in check by other dragons. How are you supposed to work in Dragon social hierarchy and rituals that weren't even detailed to entirety in the Dragons of the Sixth World sourcebook? Seriously, I want to know. To hell with power balance, I want a good reason why this trusted team of companions doesn't butcher the sorry ass wurm as soon as he turns his back (thus promptly retiring).
Also, what can an AI PC bring to the table? Sure they can do things with code that even TMs have a hard time grasping, but does this make the game more enjoyable? Do they just have an obscene hacking pool, cause I can see some pretty obscene figures from a Hacker Adept. What reason is there to risk entire armys of corporate
And while we are on the subject of turning virtually all powerful NPC types into PCs, let's think about spirits. Now it would totally suck to play as a bound spirit, as you have to listen to this whiny pink fleshy punk order you around for a few minutes and you are always on call. I mean, how are you supposed to get time for a run in the mean time?
"Sorry guys, some one just summoned me again."
"Dammit Carl, thats the 10th time today! We need you on point for this man!"
Now of course I was just being sarcastic, but what about Free Spirits?
QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 2 2008, 05:23 PM)
Seriously though, I just don't see what kind of roleplaying purpose this could have. I mean, how did a dragon get to the point that it needs to beg Johnson's for scraps? I just don't see it. As for AI's, make TMs playable first! They are close enough, just need some help in the BP and DP section.
Just because a dragon works for a Johnson, do not make the mistake of thinking that he is begging for scraps.
Unless the wyrm has a gambling problem.
Just a reminder, dragon shadowrunners have a long and glorious history in Shadowrun. Everybody remember Hart's original partner in the Secrets of Power trilogy?
Just a reminder, dragon shadowrunners have a long and glorious history in Shadowrun. Everybody remember Hart's original partner in the Secrets of Power trilogy?
It's been awhile since I read 'em, don't remember. But I do recall a dragon nightclub owner in one of the sourcebooks...Damien, I think?
Hey, I finally found some rules that'll let me make a full-on Mage (instead of a Magic Adept) and not feel like a pansy!
OK I was playing around by making a dragon character in the SR4 character generator. I was using an Eastern Dragon, but this could also be the same for a western dragon:
Attributes: Base Dragon
Skills: 56 BP
Spellcasting 5
Counterspelling 3
Conjuring Skill Group 1
Perception 2
Etiquette (Dragons) 1 (3)
Qualities: -20 (I for one am going to assume that the Magician and Sensitive System count against your maximums)
Bad Luck
Spells: 18 Points
Foci: 3 Point Sustaining Focus
Money: 11 Points (6 to buy the focus plus 25k left over)
Left over: 7 for contacts.
I personally don't find this to be too over powered.
Attributes: Base Dragon
Skills: 56 BP
Spellcasting 5
Counterspelling 3
Conjuring Skill Group 1
Perception 2
Etiquette (Dragons) 1 (3)
Qualities: -20 (I for one am going to assume that the Magician and Sensitive System count against your maximums)
Bad Luck
Spells: 18 Points
Foci: 3 Point Sustaining Focus
Money: 11 Points (6 to buy the focus plus 25k left over)
Left over: 7 for contacts.
I personally don't find this to be too over powered.
It does remind me of Hart's Partner Ancient history, in fact that was the first thing that sprung to my mind. He wasn't exactly a bruiser either. Fearsome yes, but not a night invulnerable tank. Either way, I just thought of yet another thing that'd really make a dragon's life difficult. Can you imagine first aid for a dragon? First off you need someone who knows how to handle such anatomy to administer first aid. Once you hop that hurdle you need the proper tools and strength for the job. No drugs that work on humans would work on dragons in those doses (that's even assuming the drugs are compatible with dragon anatomy). And then you gotta figure out how to adminster the first aid to something significantly larger then you. Trying to sew shut a wound that's bigger then you are with scaley armor-like hide would probably be a pain in the rear. Somehow I don't think Doc Wagon has a special unit for dragons as well. This all amuses me more and more, the more I think about it. And then there's probably people in the shadows who're liable to go "Ah slot it! He's made outta expensive reagents anyway."
I will use my ultrafine logic skillz to break this down two ways:
IF A: lawl.
IF B: Retarded.
Also, in shadowrun novels? Dragon runners are still retarded. The fact that someone else somewhere thought it was a good idea does not reduce the stupid involved.
IF A: lawl.
IF B: Retarded.
Also, in shadowrun novels? Dragon runners are still retarded. The fact that someone else somewhere thought it was a good idea does not reduce the stupid involved.
QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 2 2008, 09:51 PM)
I will use my ultrafine logic skillz to break this down two ways:
IF A: lawl.
IF B: Retarded.
Also, in shadowrun novels? Dragon runners are still retarded. The fact that someone else somewhere thought it was a good idea does not reduce the stupid involved.
IF A: lawl.
IF B: Retarded.
Also, in shadowrun novels? Dragon runners are still retarded. The fact that someone else somewhere thought it was a good idea does not reduce the stupid involved.
Yeah that is some ultra-fine logic you have there.
Just because you don't like the idea, does not mean that no one will and does not mean that it is inherently stupid. If you don't like the idea, then there is no need to use it. It is an optional book after all. It's meant to allow rules for all sorts of games and dragon-play is just one kind of play. It's no different then making a book on LA or any other city. I don't want to go play there, but it doesn't mean no one will.
QUOTE (True Believer @ Apr 2 2008, 09:57 PM)
Yeah that is some ultra-fine logic you have there.
Well, I'm a big fan of boiling retarded down to the bare bones.
QUOTE
Just because you don't like the idea, does not mean that no one will and does not mean that it is inherently stupid. If you don't like the idea, then there is no need to use it. It is an optional book after all. It's meant to allow rules for all sorts of games and dragon-play is just one kind of play. It's no different then making a book on LA or any other city. I don't want to go play there, but it doesn't mean no one will.
You're right! Thankfully, that's totally not what I'm saying. I'm saying that even if I liked it, it would still be retarded. Like adding Star Trek to an other wise totally mundane Dragonlance game, or including the Real Ghostbusters (in all their cartoony glory) in Batman Begins.
Seriously. Dragons will not be running around with criminals who have been rejected by society, because Dragons can sell their toenails to make more money than any runner will see in a year. Dragons can simply start a talk show and become world famous by virtue of merely existing. The only reason a dragon would run around with Shadowrunners is because that dragon is... (please insert drumroll here)
...retarded. Like, he's got draconic downs syndrome or was dropped on his head or something.
It's stupid to paint a target on your head to begin with. It's even more stupid if every living thing that sees you will remember you for the rest of their lives and your entire body is made of money.
QUOTE (True Believer @ Apr 3 2008, 12:57 AM)
Yeah that is some ultra-fine logic you have there.
Just because you don't like the idea, does not mean that no one will and does not mean that it is inherently stupid. If you don't like the idea, then there is no need to use it. It is an optional book after all. It's meant to allow rules for all sorts of games and dragon-play is just one kind of play. It's no different then making a book on LA or any other city. I don't want to go play there, but it doesn't mean no one will.
Just because you don't like the idea, does not mean that no one will and does not mean that it is inherently stupid. If you don't like the idea, then there is no need to use it. It is an optional book after all. It's meant to allow rules for all sorts of games and dragon-play is just one kind of play. It's no different then making a book on LA or any other city. I don't want to go play there, but it doesn't mean no one will.
I personally agree with what you are saying. I am all for having plenty of options for a GM and players to have access too. I am the last person to promote the dimishing of other's ideas.
That being said. If you are going to do something, atleast try to do it right.
If the rules are real, they should have put alot more time and thought into them. There are way too many blatant, simple rules errors and contradictions.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...mp;#entry660618
And if this is real, I still want to know if this means Unwired is being pushed back and RC is being released first.
In one of the chats the Devs said they were contemplating having AIs as a PC option in RC. It might be prudent to have Unwired released before publishing the rules for playing PC AIs.
In one of the chats the Devs said they were contemplating having AIs as a PC option in RC. It might be prudent to have Unwired released before publishing the rules for playing PC AIs.
QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 2 2008, 09:03 PM)
Well, I'm a big fan of boiling retarded down to the bare bones.
You're right! Thankfully, that's totally not what I'm saying. I'm saying that even if I liked it, it would still be retarded. Like adding Star Trek to an other wise totally mundane Dragonlance game, or including the Real Ghostbusters (in all their cartoony glory) in Batman Begins.
Seriously. Dragons will not be running around with criminals who have been rejected by society, because Dragons can sell their toenails to make more money than any runner will see in a year. Dragons can simply start a talk show and become world famous by virtue of merely existing. The only reason a dragon would run around with Shadowrunners is because that dragon is... (please insert drumroll here)
...retarded. Like, he's got draconic downs syndrome or was dropped on his head or something.
It's stupid to paint a target on your head to begin with. It's even more stupid if every living thing that sees you will remember you for the rest of their lives and your entire body is made of money.
You're right! Thankfully, that's totally not what I'm saying. I'm saying that even if I liked it, it would still be retarded. Like adding Star Trek to an other wise totally mundane Dragonlance game, or including the Real Ghostbusters (in all their cartoony glory) in Batman Begins.
Seriously. Dragons will not be running around with criminals who have been rejected by society, because Dragons can sell their toenails to make more money than any runner will see in a year. Dragons can simply start a talk show and become world famous by virtue of merely existing. The only reason a dragon would run around with Shadowrunners is because that dragon is... (please insert drumroll here)
...retarded. Like, he's got draconic downs syndrome or was dropped on his head or something.
It's stupid to paint a target on your head to begin with. It's even more stupid if every living thing that sees you will remember you for the rest of their lives and your entire body is made of money.
My point is that these books aren't all meant for shadowrunning per say. It could be used for all sorts of campaigns. Political campaigs, all dragon campaigns, high powered campaigns. Making all the books around one type of game doesn't allow for the world setting to be fully realized.
Um, no.
That's all!
That's all!
QUOTE (raverbane @ Apr 3 2008, 01:57 PM)
Given the the base body for dragons ranges from 9-12, I guess dragons won't be using thier Shapechange spell to become humans or elves.
Shrug. If you want to justify it, humans and elves have an augmented maximum Body of 9 ... 12 if you really want to push it. Doesn't really seem to be that much of a problem.
QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 3 2008, 01:13 AM)
Um, no.
That's all!
That's all!
No, he's right. Shadowrun, the game, has never been only about Shadowrunners. Entire supplements have been published based on the premise of a non-Shadowrunner team (be they Specops for a gov't or corp, Yakuza or Mafia thugs, a Docwagon team, gangers, you name it). The rest of the world exists as more than just a convenient backdrop for Shadowrunning teams, and for more than just backstory seeds for individual Shadowrunners.
In some games, a Dragon can fight in just fine (no worse than your average Ghoul, Drake, or Shapeshifter). In your games they can't. Heck, in most of my games, they can't. But that doesn't mean the idea of it is innately retarded, or someone who disagrees with your assessment of them is innately wrong (especially when they're saying Shadowrun isn't just for Shadowrunners, and that all sorts of other games exist, which is in every way a true statement no matter how clever and lulzy you think you're being).
This sounds like something for a Arduin Grimoire Campaign I played and GMed in long ago times. Dave Hargrave (may here rest peacefully)got me started, talk about a Killer GM.
You usually had multiple characters entering a dungeon he ran, and hoped one would survive to get out. 100 hp technological heat rays/beam, are deadly at low levels.
I one time allowed a player to play a Greater Demon Character in AG, I learned my lesson the hard way.
If not a joke, not in my games.
WMS
You usually had multiple characters entering a dungeon he ran, and hoped one would survive to get out. 100 hp technological heat rays/beam, are deadly at low levels.
I one time allowed a player to play a Greater Demon Character in AG, I learned my lesson the hard way.
If not a joke, not in my games.
WMS
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 3 2008, 12:15 AM)
Shrug. If you want to justify it, humans and elves have an augmented maximum Body of 9 ... 12 if you really want to push it. Doesn't really seem to be that much of a problem a problem.
Saying that one can Shapechange into the Augmented versions of critters in an interesting interp. Not a can of wyrms (pun intended) that I would want to open in my game.
But, even given that.
People shouldn't have to come up with interps and exceptions for the exceptions. The RULES should have that covered. They should not directly contradict themselves from one paragraph to the next. If this is real and this is any example of the writing for the rest of the book. We will be able to write a whole other book about all the FAQ's, Erratas and interpretations for this book.
Correct me if I am wrong: Shapechange makes you take on the physical stats of the new form, correct? If so, then..Dragons would lose alot using Shapechange.
I would also point out that requiring dragons to be Magicians is actually a limitation. It means you cannot have a Dragon Adept or Mystic Adept. We can, of course, assume they have an Essence of 10, and the standard 1 Edge of any creature outside of Humans.
But, over all, they really do not seem that powerful to me. I really do see the RP challenge to this: The "Phenomenal Cosmic potential! Itty-bitty starting skills!" problem. I could also see the reason to drop the Shapechange spell being when in a truly desparate situation(remember! when shapechanged, you lose any of your innate physical stuff, though I think a Dragon would keep their Dual-Natured disadvantage)
I would also point out that requiring dragons to be Magicians is actually a limitation. It means you cannot have a Dragon Adept or Mystic Adept. We can, of course, assume they have an Essence of 10, and the standard 1 Edge of any creature outside of Humans.
But, over all, they really do not seem that powerful to me. I really do see the RP challenge to this: The "Phenomenal Cosmic potential! Itty-bitty starting skills!" problem. I could also see the reason to drop the Shapechange spell being when in a truly desparate situation(remember! when shapechanged, you lose any of your innate physical stuff, though I think a Dragon would keep their Dual-Natured disadvantage)
Okay, since it's Critias, I'll respond slightly more sanely.
It's like this:
None of those ever presented "Megacorp CEO" as a starting character build.
None of those ever said, "Here, play a Horror for 400 BP."
In fact, none of them ever made playing something a PC if they are tiny in number. To quote shadowrun itself, if 'most people will go their entire lives only having seen a dragon with their own eyes once,' they are not numerous enough to have build rules allocated to them for PC use, EVER. Edit: To clarify, they would be better served by simply having the GM work shit out with the player on an individual basis.
Or to put it another way, nothing says I couldn't put out a sourcebook detailing how to play world-class chefs in the 6th world, each striving to create the best steak while juggling their hot-rod romances and snorting enormous amounts of cocaine. But you know what? This is not a valuable concept for Shadowrun, the game. This adds nothing except an air of ridiculousness. It takes something that, on its own, can be interesting and thought provoking, and reduces it to the level of daytime cartoons. I have nothing against cartoons. I just don't want them in my shadowrun. The rules in the BBB provide plenty of ways to use any of these things as NPCs, so there' s no reason to provide PC costs for them unless they're directly intended to be PCs.
The idea is innately retarded because it's like making rules for sentient toasters and wasting part of a book on them. It does not add anything to the game, and drags the level of awesome in the game down several notches.
For the record, I think it's a joke.
It's like this:
None of those ever presented "Megacorp CEO" as a starting character build.
None of those ever said, "Here, play a Horror for 400 BP."
In fact, none of them ever made playing something a PC if they are tiny in number. To quote shadowrun itself, if 'most people will go their entire lives only having seen a dragon with their own eyes once,' they are not numerous enough to have build rules allocated to them for PC use, EVER. Edit: To clarify, they would be better served by simply having the GM work shit out with the player on an individual basis.
Or to put it another way, nothing says I couldn't put out a sourcebook detailing how to play world-class chefs in the 6th world, each striving to create the best steak while juggling their hot-rod romances and snorting enormous amounts of cocaine. But you know what? This is not a valuable concept for Shadowrun, the game. This adds nothing except an air of ridiculousness. It takes something that, on its own, can be interesting and thought provoking, and reduces it to the level of daytime cartoons. I have nothing against cartoons. I just don't want them in my shadowrun. The rules in the BBB provide plenty of ways to use any of these things as NPCs, so there' s no reason to provide PC costs for them unless they're directly intended to be PCs.
The idea is innately retarded because it's like making rules for sentient toasters and wasting part of a book on them. It does not add anything to the game, and drags the level of awesome in the game down several notches.
For the record, I think it's a joke.
QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 2 2008, 09:26 PM)
The "Phenomenal Cosmic potential! Itty-bitty starting skills!"
That was terrific.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying, implying, believing, thinking, or even dreaming that this is real. Just pointing out that there could be a loophole in the Shapechange rules that might be utilized. Personally, I would just add 1 to the DV of the Shapechange spell to increase the Body difference capacity by 3 or 4 (and then make it Caster Only to reduce the DV again ). 
).
QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 3 2008, 12:29 AM)
The idea is innately retarded because it's like making rules for sentient toasters and wasting part of a book on them. It does not add anything to the game, and drags the level of awesome in the game down several notches.
So, if there are rules for AI PC's in Unwired(like was said they were thinking about), since those could be in your AR toaster, you will make this same assessment?
In a word, maybe.
An AI and a sentient toaster are subtly different. An AI could be like unto JackBNimble'd victims - ordinary people who are forced to run as agents, perhaps residing in a humaniform drone body.
A sentient toaster, conceptually, is an AI whose primary aptitude and skillset involves making the aformention toast. I like toast. But I don't think it's very shadowrunny.
Doing AIs is a tricky thing, and often results in stupid. But not always. A lot of my response would depend on what kind of AIs were playable and what they cost, etc. Unlike dragons, we really don't even have stats or expected behavior to fall back on.
An AI and a sentient toaster are subtly different. An AI could be like unto JackBNimble'd victims - ordinary people who are forced to run as agents, perhaps residing in a humaniform drone body.
A sentient toaster, conceptually, is an AI whose primary aptitude and skillset involves making the aformention toast. I like toast. But I don't think it's very shadowrunny.
Doing AIs is a tricky thing, and often results in stupid. But not always. A lot of my response would depend on what kind of AIs were playable and what they cost, etc. Unlike dragons, we really don't even have stats or expected behavior to fall back on.
QUOTE (Adarael @ Apr 3 2008, 12:47 AM)
Unlike dragons, we really don't even have stats or expected behavior to fall back on.
Now we have partial stats(the article ends in the middle), and the only behavior we really haave is Great Dragons. We do not know what young adult dragons are like. In fact, I would wager they are like a human young adult: they know just enough to get in trouble, think they are better then they are, and know more then they do, and tend to make bad decisions. Considering that said dragons would have a VERY small skillset? Overly specialized? Well..you know what Heinlein said about specialization...
Nah, there has been non-great activity in SR publications. We'd have to go back to 3rd edition at the earliest, probably 2nd - things like Bottled Demon, Paradise Lost, et cetera. It's not as common as GDs, but it's there - and frankly it's not terribly different than GD behavior aside from the fact that they tend not to fly over cities and fight attack jets or blow down Tehran.
As to stats, sure, we're missing half the article. But we have a wealth of back story and stattage in terms of Dracoform writeups for 3 prior editions, 2 fully statted non-great dragons, DotSW, Survival of the Fittest, etc.
For AIs, really all we have is the plan of "Go crazy, take over arcology, torture people" with a side of "Get carted around by dodger and smoke otaku when you get mad."
As to stats, sure, we're missing half the article. But we have a wealth of back story and stattage in terms of Dracoform writeups for 3 prior editions, 2 fully statted non-great dragons, DotSW, Survival of the Fittest, etc.
For AIs, really all we have is the plan of "Go crazy, take over arcology, torture people" with a side of "Get carted around by dodger and smoke otaku when you get mad."
QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 2 2008, 10:57 PM)
Well..you know what Heinlein said about specialization...
Actually, I don't, and I am a fan of his. (R.A. Heinliein right?) So, care to enlighten me?
QUOTE (Narse @ Apr 2 2008, 10:13 PM)
Actually, I don't, and I am a fan of his. (R.A. Heinliein right?) So, care to enlighten me?
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
I think there's enough interest in playing Dragons, so it makes sense for Catalyst to make rules for such. It's not my cup of tea, especially not in my current campaign, but in a past SR3 campaign, a dragon would have fit right in next to the (non-compendium, full regeneration, NPC-rule) shapeshifter and the "maxed out on betaware, firearms in the double digit range" samurais.
Background-wise, runner dragons face the same problem as do runner mages - they need a reason why they are running, and not making lots of cash legally. And I think they could only run with "light shade of grey" runners, since the "darker shade of grey" runners would probably just kill them and sell their body parts.
Although I think if such rules are published, Dragons as a whole, including Greats, will become a lot more common, both in games as well as with regards to specialness. It's just harder to be impressed by something meant to be a god if one has been playing (with) its kid brother.
So, while I won't use such dragon rules in my games from what I can tell, I think it would not be a bad thing to have the rules, if only for the subtle changes they'll cause.
Background-wise, runner dragons face the same problem as do runner mages - they need a reason why they are running, and not making lots of cash legally. And I think they could only run with "light shade of grey" runners, since the "darker shade of grey" runners would probably just kill them and sell their body parts.
Although I think if such rules are published, Dragons as a whole, including Greats, will become a lot more common, both in games as well as with regards to specialness. It's just harder to be impressed by something meant to be a god if one has been playing (with) its kid brother.
So, while I won't use such dragon rules in my games from what I can tell, I think it would not be a bad thing to have the rules, if only for the subtle changes they'll cause.
QUOTE (Fuchs @ Apr 3 2008, 02:17 AM)
I think there's enough interest in playing Dragons, so it makes sense for Catalyst to make rules for such. It's not my cup of tea, especially not in my current campaign, but in a past SR3 campaign, a dragon would have fit right in next to the (non-compendium, full regeneration, NPC-rule) shapeshifter and the "maxed out on betaware, firearms in the double digit range" samurais.
Background-wise, runner dragons face the same problem as do runner mages - they need a reason why they are running, and not making lots of cash legally. And I think they could only run with "light shade of grey" runners, since the "darker shade of grey" runners would probably just kill them and sell their body parts.
Although I think if such rules are published, Dragons as a whole, including Greats, will become a lot more common, both in games as well as with regards to specialness. It's just harder to be impressed by something meant to be a god if one has been playing (with) its kid brother.
So, while I won't use such dragon rules in my games from what I can tell, I think it would not be a bad thing to have the rules, if only for the subtle changes they'll cause.
Background-wise, runner dragons face the same problem as do runner mages - they need a reason why they are running, and not making lots of cash legally. And I think they could only run with "light shade of grey" runners, since the "darker shade of grey" runners would probably just kill them and sell their body parts.
Although I think if such rules are published, Dragons as a whole, including Greats, will become a lot more common, both in games as well as with regards to specialness. It's just harder to be impressed by something meant to be a god if one has been playing (with) its kid brother.
So, while I won't use such dragon rules in my games from what I can tell, I think it would not be a bad thing to have the rules, if only for the subtle changes they'll cause.
Besides that, it is also good for a GM. Say a GM wants to have a "Weak" dragon agent of a Great be the Johnson for a series of runs? Rules like this could be the way: "just build him as a 400 point character." Still dangerous, but not going to flat out blast the characters..and I think rules like that are actually good because they DO provide a way for a GM to gauge things. It also allows the GM to have an idea of the Dragons, and, thus, be able to make that one different from what the players, let alone the PC's would expect. Once something moves to PC rules instead of "critter" rules, it becomes more flexible, because, then, it has all the options that PC has, or a Prime Runner NPC has.
(As far as the question whether this is a joke or a preview is concerned, my vote is on "neither" - I suspect Catalyst is testing the waters, so to speak, to see if Dragon PCs are acceptable by enough players/GMs. If not, they can always claim it was a joke.)
I still demand playable Passions and Totems, for a meta/polyplanar ultra-powered DBZ style campaign. If we're going insane, at least we should go REALLY insane. Besides, playing a character that could pummel Verjigorme is every Powergamer's wet dream, now is it?
Or, in line with spirits: What about playable Horrors? They already are a staple in the world (The wraith, arguably the corpselight too), and since everyone claims 'runners are rejects by society and have to be psycho to begin with, what better place to fit your average Horror into than a runner team? He wouldn't even need to be paid, so the team could propably divide his share more or less amongst each other, he'd do this for the food he gets from all the runners' psycho killing.
And, for the record I am with Fuchs on this. The testing the waters stuff.
Or, in line with spirits: What about playable Horrors? They already are a staple in the world (The wraith, arguably the corpselight too), and since everyone claims 'runners are rejects by society and have to be psycho to begin with, what better place to fit your average Horror into than a runner team? He wouldn't even need to be paid, so the team could propably divide his share more or less amongst each other, he'd do this for the food he gets from all the runners' psycho killing.
And, for the record I am with Fuchs on this. The testing the waters stuff.
QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 3 2008, 10:56 AM)
Besides, playing a character that could pummel Verjigorme is every Powergamer's wet dream, now is it?
Nothing impossible for a tricked out and well equipped group of 15th circle adepts of the right disciplines.
Oh, wrong game.
I would be fully inclined not to consider this a joke but for one thing - if it were not a joke, I would expect a developer to have stuck their nose in the thread and confirmed that it were not a joke. Ancient History sidestepped the issue, you'll note, and Adam merely said don't stick your middle finger up where people can't see it. (Or something like that.)
I've been waffling back and forth on the issue, and I think that allowing these would require a very special kind of campaign, the same kind of campaign I'd allow ghouls and any other sort of meta-variant. The focus would have to be on them, and not on the runners (or, the runners would have to be something special themselves). Same deal with AIs, though strangely I'm more welcome to the thought of an AI pc in a regular SR game. Weird that.
But, having a BP system for them is *great* because I can use them as NPCs. I'm not one for handwaving (I'm one of those "I have to justify this" sort of DMs) so having a BP cost to them is helpful. This'd be the same for, again, AIs.
But, having a BP system for them is *great* because I can use them as NPCs. I'm not one for handwaving (I'm one of those "I have to justify this" sort of DMs) so having a BP cost to them is helpful. This'd be the same for, again, AIs.
I like the rules, and I doubt they're an April Fool's joke, first it was released on the 2nd, and even the BT side of CGL managed to get the joke out on the 1st, and second because it looks too much like a workup of something that's a work in progress. It hasn't been proofread, it may not have been completely playtested yet, but it looks like something that's been thought out (thought, so did the BT one, to the point where people are planning on using it in games at conventions for the hell of it )
The third reason I think its real is because SR4 has been pushing the boundaries, letting people do what they want in the game. We have new cybernetics and genetic engineering that lets people do characters that might have pushed limits of house rules before, we have rules for "Jarheads" now and living drones, we know there's talk of AI PCs, why not continue the trend of letting people do what they want with Dragon PCs? It may not be fore your game, but its probably for someone's.
As for the rules itself, they look interesting, the drawbacks and benefits seem like they're varied enough that it should be interesting to play, but they're going to be limited beyond the standard magician fare for a little bit, since your skills are limited (plus we don't have the complete rules yet).
The rules as presented seem rather balanced, with starting Dragons quite possibly worse off than an equivalent runner in terms of abilities (outside of the magician bit). Do they need tweaks and some fixes? Sure. Considering the next book is supposed to be Unwired, with RC not out for several months, they have time for those fixes.
)The third reason I think its real is because SR4 has been pushing the boundaries, letting people do what they want in the game. We have new cybernetics and genetic engineering that lets people do characters that might have pushed limits of house rules before, we have rules for "Jarheads" now and living drones, we know there's talk of AI PCs, why not continue the trend of letting people do what they want with Dragon PCs? It may not be fore your game, but its probably for someone's.
As for the rules itself, they look interesting, the drawbacks and benefits seem like they're varied enough that it should be interesting to play, but they're going to be limited beyond the standard magician fare for a little bit, since your skills are limited (plus we don't have the complete rules yet).
The rules as presented seem rather balanced, with starting Dragons quite possibly worse off than an equivalent runner in terms of abilities (outside of the magician bit). Do they need tweaks and some fixes? Sure. Considering the next book is supposed to be Unwired, with RC not out for several months, they have time for those fixes.
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