DS + Multi Strike combat manuver = You can wage an assualt on many opponents in a 6 meter area around you. To top it off, it seems they don't get the modifiers for such things as cover and movement (the attack is made using the Melee Combat rules, which have no modifiers present for movement and cover). While it doesn't make you uber as hell, it is a nice move for goon clearing.

Full Offense combined with DS is just nasty. As long as you keep yourself at a distance from your opponent, you can use it with impunity.

Personally, I like combining Distance Strike with Smashing Blow. Being able to blow out walls and doors at a distance is pretty cool (one player I saw once used it to shatter down a sky light on his opponents, the distraction it caused allowed him to escape).

Because by investing in Distance Strike, beyond picking up a simple 6 dice and a smartlink for a firearm skill (which is purely a backup weapon), the adept is free to invest in unarmed combat improvements. He'll be equally devestating in hand-to-hand combat as well as short ranged combat, and the investment alone is worth it because it completely eliminates another melee specialist's melee abilities for all intents and purposes.

In otherwords, a 2-point investment in Distance Strike allows an adept to make mince meat of anyone else who would normally have been a challenge in melee combat. Said opponent has no chance to defend against his blows, of which the adept is applying *all* of his unarmed specialty upon. Improved Ability, Killing Hands, Smashing Blow, Delay Damage... what have you. Normally the opponent would be able to use his own unarmed prowess to defend against the attack... but that possibility is wholly eliminated by the power.

Can the adept have shot the guy? Sure. But then he'd be limited to everything that entails; a set Damage Code, Ballistic Armor, and everything else. There is no limits with Distance Strike save for range, hence having the firearm as a back-up option.

for what it's worth, there's the limit that it can only be used to attack. you can't use it in counterattacks.

No, it's not.

You can't spontaneously increase your Pistol's Damage Code to D damage just by taking one adept power, or increase its base Power by pumping iron or taking yet another adept power. He also gains no advantage for shooting through a barrier. And he can't shoot spirits or projecting magicians, either. etc.

It's fine. You don't want to see it. Groovy. I really don't care if you want to be blind to the problems of it. I don't game you, so it's not really a problem. Doesn't mean that I'm blind to the problems of it, and that I don't see how DV8's original idea had some merit for improving some of those problems. So feel free to deal with that, too.

One four-point power.

~J

One four-point power that can't be used to improve a pistol or any other weapon for that matter. What's your point?

You can't load your psychic knucles with APDS or capsules of DMSO, hyper and peper punch.

It allows you to attack once with melee rules and the opponent cannot counterattack but can use full defense (unless there is a specific refuttal that I don't remember right now). Good skill with a gun can allow you to shoot twice.

If you want to compare the functional benefits of one versus the other, also look at the karma costs of initiating to get more adept powers versus buying a skill up to level 6 (or 5/7). To gain distance strike after chargen requires a minimum of 19 karma, up to 39. To gain pistols 6 assuming a quickness of 3 is 38 karma.

Using a pistol allows for less BP spent on powering up your unarmed attack, using distance strike allows you to make all your combat skills be strength linked.

I am undecided as to which is "more powerful."

Once again, the adept can have a pistol and a damn fine skill, too, without much sacrifice (6 Skill Points, 0.5 Essence and a Geas, and 3,500 nuyen). He's getting the best of all worlds. Everyone else... SOL.

No, they don't, and I don't know why you guys have trouble grasping this as it's been repeated ad infinitum. The gunslinger has no defense against a melee specialist; if one were to walk up to him and smack him around, he'd have to sit there and take it. The adept wouldn't; he'd not only get to defend himself, but because all of his magic is devoted to unarmed combat, he'd likely be able to turn that defensive reaction into an attack.

But whatever. Do what you want in your games, as I've stated before. Have a blast. If you don't want to see the problems with it, that's your decision.

Not to mention that because of the way melee combat already works, this just gives a less-skilled opponent a chance at one hit every initiative pass, as if he's more skilled it doesn't matter whether or not the opponent has a chance to retaliate, they won't do so successfully.

~J

Cool! So if I ever game with you, you won't have ANY PROBLEM WHATOSEVER with me having a gun that has a Concealability of 1,000,000 (and even that pales in comparison to the adept's Concealability of his ranged weapon), that does (STR)D or (STR)M Stun damage at will with no limit to the base Power whatsoever (so if I'm playing a troll or other augmented-strength character, I'll easily be able to "shoot" past heavily armored vehicles and drones), and bonus dice equal to my Essence score. Oh, and it's also one that let's me counterattack, too, without having to invest in an unarmed combat skill. Oh, oh, and it also has a switch that let's me make it totally silent (not Silenced, but utterly silent), oh, and another switch that let's me delay the damage in such a way that not only does the damage kick in whenever I will it, but can also inflict the wound without the target even realizing he's been hit. Oooh! And then another switch that let's me attack the target's Quickness to paralyze the target instead of doing normal damage! I almost forget, it also can't be taken from me and I never ever have to make a Quick Draw test... and even while using it, my hands are considered free! Naturally it never needs to be reloaded either, and sure it has a SS mode and relatively short range, but that's a small price to pay for this perfectly reasonable weapon! Sweeeeeeeet!

Yeah, I see how that's a perfectly reasonable weapon now! You guys were SO right! Sadly, even that perfectly reasonable weapon still doesn't compare to the potential of an adept with Distance Strike. Shucks.

Doc: are you describing the insanely game balance breaking advantages of ranged attacks with DMSO vectored toxins/drugs?

Guns can be:
- silent without paying any karma for it
- can not be counter-attacked without paying any karma for it
- can have AV amo without characters paying any karma for it
- can be fired twice an action in SA without paying any karma for it
- can have TN # 2 as long as you got them smartlinked without paying any karma for it (I'm not even talking about smartlink-2 which opens a new world of easy mayhem to his happy owners!!)
- can easily raise their damage codes in BF or FA modes without paying any karma for it
- can be changed easily (you break your gun, you get another one; you get your arm chopped off, you don't spank as many as asses) without paying any karma for it
- Infiltrator type guns, in holsters and Long coats are practically un-detectable without paying any karma for it
- tailored toxins have a range of effects, delivered by DMSO vector which is unparalleled without paying any karma for it
- ranged attackes let you have a bonus to your TN equal to your skill (skill 6 when you take time to target victim give you a TN - 6 modifier!!!) without paying any karma for it

For me, it's perfectly fine to use DMSO vectored toxins (I used it a lot in my games) as prepared and intelligent characters can kick ass of anything, and I don't see any problem about it, whatever the means at their disposal.

One word: Hyper

Mages can't concentrate enough to cast stuff right (+4 TN), additional boxes from wounds equal to half the original as Stun.

Sure, it's expensive, but it does the trick.

So now we're going from how unbalancing one rule is to pointing out all the others, eh? Interesting.

...

~J

Doc,

Instead it looks to me like he is pointing out that your version of gun combat was a straw man; that while you made certain to point out all the strengths of ranged melee combat you failed to properly account for the diversity and power of firearms and therefore [failed to] properly compare the power of the two.

His comparison is hardly unrelated. You declared 'unbalance' without placing all the power of the firearms on the scale - he was merely adding legitimate weight to your own scale.

-3Threes

No, because -- once again -- the adept can easily acquire those abilities with minimal difficulty. Pistols 4 to 6 and a Smartlink is essentially a freebie for a starting character; even with Resources E and Skills E, a character can easily acquire both of those and still have plenty of room leftover for everything else. Yet the same is not true of every other character in the game who doesn't have Distance Strike.

Joe Blow the Gunbunny will get his ass handed to him if a god-of-melee approaches them. At best, he can try to shoot them, but that still pales in comparison to what an adept can do. The adept not only gets to use his hyped-up unarmed talents to not just defend but counterattack, but he gets to blow the living bajeevus out of even the most insanely powerful melee combatant. At best, the opponent can use Full Defense, at which point he can't even use Combat Pool to augment the defense.

Joe Blow the Gunbunny has to get past checkpoints and have to deal with MAD scanners and visual inspections to get into high security areas, meaning they either lose access to their gun in such areas or have to find some other way to get past all the security. An adept with Distance Strike doesn't have to worry about that; at worst, he has to deal with Astral Perception or Wards, both of which are easily bypassed just by deactivating the power until you need it.

Joe Blow the Gunbunny has a finite limit on the Power of his weapon. Even with AV ammo, he still has trouble destroying moderately armored vehicles or drones. An adept with Distance Strike and just a few points in Improved/Boosted Strength (or even just a naturally high Strength) can get past way more armor, and they don't ever run out of ammo or have to deal with high Availability ratings.

Joe Blow the Gunbunny, even if he he has a melee/unarmed skill, still has to deal with things like Reach. The adept with Distance Strike never has to worry about that again save for counterstrike attempts. And even then, he has the exact same option Joe Blow has available to get around that; Close Combat.

The list goes on and on. But obviously I'm just deluded, which is why so many people have house rules regarding Distance Strike... because I'm the only one on the face of the planet who comprehends that it's an unbalanced power. Yessir. It's all just in my head.

I've got an odd question.

How can character's dodge distance strike? It's an invisible attack, isn't it? And to top it off, unless you know that the adept has distance strike, then you are trying to dodge as a guy accross the room makes a punching movement at you.

What if you combine it with Delay Damage 2, all you need to do is point at someone, and it's like you punched them. I don't see how you dodge an invisible attack coming from an opponent that could be a point, maybe a nod, or even a blown kiss.

I would also like to point out atleast one area where distance strike can outdo a pistol. Multiple opponents. With Multistrike it's only a +1 to strike each additional opponent. So with a good dice pool you can strike 3-4 opponents each turn.

Additionally, DS characters (especially practioners of Wildcat) fair better against highly armored opponents. There is no cannon rule that allows you to shoot around armor (thanks to the very very broken called shot rules), but there is rules for using Melee Called Shots to strike around armor. So, when the goons in Security armoy roll out and your pistol shots richochet off their armor, the DS Adept can call a shot to their helmet, meaning they only have 2 impact to defend. Mind you, these are only rare situations, but they can atleast add a little bit to the arguement of distance strike.

Personally, I like using Distance Strike with Delay Damage 2 and Killin Hands Serious, great assassin character, all they need is a gesture in their opponent's direction to kill them, especially since they way the rules seem to point, body armor does not protect against this attack.

Despite all these arguements, I still stand by the old axiom, don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Guns are very good at their job of killing things.

I'm with Doc on this one. But even if I didn't see Distance Stirke as being highly unbalanced, it is still a cheesy Anime Power that I feel has no place in the relatively gritty Shadowrun world. Add to that the fact that, in my opinion, it really doesn't fit in with the normal Adept Powers that are based on self-enhancing Magic.

So... Being able to not put yourself in danger and still beat the snot out of the other guy isn't self-enhancing?

I was under the impression it was basically a "ki" strike, wher eyou extend your essence into a ranged attack... Seems perfectly befitting an adept to me.

I don't see anything wrong with distance strike.

* It is expensive with a cost of 2 for the first part.

* It takes a complex action to use.

* It doesnt have an extremely good range, 6 meters! I think I can throw a nade farther then that.

If it is bad because it is a cheesy anime move, well then might as well get rid of half the combat spells while we are at it.

You can take it as Obvious and do it that way. It'll handle correctly. However, for Silent, you have to brush against them.

Delay Damage, first sentence: "The delay damage power allows an adept to inflict damage in unarmed melee combat that does not take immediate effect." The second sentence explains it further, saying the adept gets to make a standard attack.

Distance Strike, first sentence: "This power allows an adept to 'transmit' an unarmed attack over a short distance and strike a target without physically touching them."

The two powers are perfectly legal together by the rules. The silent version of Delay Damage doesn't change anything; the only thing it changes is that the attack doesn't appear to be a normal physical attack, but can be anything from a gentle bump or brush. With Distance Strike, it'd feel the same way, save that the target wouldn't necessarily know where it originated from.

That works. The spicey mustard must've gotten to me.

I'm not so sure he is... Thing is, nowhere does it say "This power cannot be used in combination with..." It would make sense, then, that they could be used together with no problem.

I thought Distance Strike didn't count as melee, but as ranged at (your magic rating)m which owuld say you can't do it.
It counts obviously as unarmed, but it doesn't say it is a melee, it acts like ranged...

Hmm, so if you wanted to use obvious delay-damage + distance strike dress your shadowrunner up as a Mime (Better add some acting skills in) and wait for the target to walk by. . . that gives me an idea.

Oh God... I hate you for thinking that up.

I would drop so many clowns on you it wouldn't even be funny.

Wait, yes it would.

Just wanted to say that Doc F is probably right on the combo of Dist Strike and silent Delay Damage thing.

A strict reading of the rules seems to say no. The delay damage power says that it works in "unarmed melee combat", whereas the distance strike power could not, by any stretch of the imagination, be called melee combat.

right, because unarmed combat is wholly different from an unarmed attack. honestly, if you have to diffentiate between unarmed melee attacks and all the other kinds of unarmed attacks, just call it a house rule. you'll get less argument that way.

as far as the "this doesn't belong in my gritty shadowrun world" argument--i dunno. i honestly don't see how it's any worse than great leap, or mystic armor, or killing hands, or any other adept power. described properly, any adept power can become Dragonball Z silliness; described otherwise, any adept power can also be gritty and hard.

From Dr F's quotes, above:
Delay Damage, first sentence: "The delay damage power allows an adept to inflict damage in unarmed melee combat that does not take immediate effect." The second sentence explains it further, saying the adept gets to make a standard attack.

Distance Strike, first sentence: "This power allows an adept to 'transmit' an unarmed attack over a short distance and strike a target without physically touching them."

Notice the Distance strike doesn't say melee...just unarmed. Being as they don't say melee, nor do they say ranged...Being as it works over a distance, I think the assumption should be ranged...Then it wouldn't stack... But if you assume you can do a melee attack from about 6m(20 ft) away from someone, go ahead and call it melee.

Oh good grief. If anything, "unarmed combat" is the broad term that includes "unarmed attacks," not forbidding them.

If Delay Damage wasn't compatible with Distance Strike, they would have said as much -- especially since the two powers are not only in the same book, but follow each other's descriptions. Just like they do with powers, spells, or cyberware are not compatible with other powers, spells, or cyberware. You know, like they did with the Improved Reflexes power, and I quote, "...and the increase cannot be comined with technological or other magical increases in Reaction or Initiative."

But whatever. Do what you want in your games. Just don't even try to pretend that the rules even come close to suggesting that the two powers are incompatible.

I would quote more from the powers, but somehow I get the impression that neither of you really care and are just too caught up on your dissmissive points about how absolutely reasonable Distance Strike is as a power. So screw it. Do what you want, just don't try and pretend you're right as you have nothing to back those claims up with beyond your own, erroneous opinions. Which, of course, you're free to have.

dude, you're the guy trying to say that melee is different from unarmed attacks.

I didn't need to write half a page of insulting condescending crap to let people know my opinion, though.

I would also like to point out, I did have something to back it up, you pompous windbag. I used YOUR quotes...I guess that's cheating though... I figure since the words vary distinctively, they meant it, maybe not. I am happy letting you do as you please, I was merely mentioning how it owuld easily be read another way.

Could everyone calm down a little? Mudslinging becomes nobody.

Yeah, shoot the mime shadowrunners instead. Everybody hates mimes.