Except that Uberadeptboy's attack is against Ballistic Armor, whereas Mr. Standard's is against Impact. Mr. Standard's attack is also (usually) silent, where as that is not always the case for Uberadeptboy. Mr. Standard is never without his weapon, where the same can't be said for the gun-toting Uberadeptboy. Uberadeptboy can't combine other 'neat and awesome™' Powers with his attack, but Mr. Standard can stack on all those other Adept Powers along with his Distance Strike.

If you say so.

I don't see how any of that demonstrates that someone using Distance Strike at melee range and their opponent not being able to retaliate because of that is unbalanced.
There are obviously advantages to Distance Strike, but my point stands unless you'd care to explain how your argument negates it.

~J

Your inability to comprehend it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Under the current rules, your not-so-uberadept boy is SOL if someone sneaks up and smacks him across the face. He has no chance to counterstrike and has to take it like the little bitch he is. On his next act, he can either take a +2 TN modifier for shooting in melee or try and move to a better position (and thereby allow another free attack on him, though I'm not sure if I'm messing up game systems here or not).

Now if he has Distance Strike and purchased his points in Improved Ability (Martial Art), he wouldn't have that problem at all. He could counterstrike the sneaky little bastard, then on his turn use Distance Strike to smack him into next week without giving him a chance to counterstrike whatsoever. No movement and no target number modifier (an arguable point, I know; on one hand it is a ranged attack, on the other it's still a melee attack) required, either.

Many other scenarios are available, too, and most of them have been pointed out numerous times (though not always in the massive amount of detail you seem to need) in the thread.

Yeah. As I said, there are advantages to having Distance Strike. We could go for days thinking up situations that highlight our given characters' strengths and weaknesses (what is DSboy going to do when the opponent is 40 meters away and hosing him down with AR fire?).
My example was created to disprove a contention, that contention being that an adept with Distance Strike getting a "free", unable-to-be-retaliated-against attack is unbalancing. I showed how you could create much the same situation without difficulty using another method, one that few people would claim is unfair.
As for the +2 TN modifier, that's the entire point of the Smartlink. I wasn't putting it in there for my health, y'know.

~J

Also, adding to Distance-Strike-type-person's costs are killing hands if he wants to do more than (str)M Stun. The gun-person can just buy a better gun; no karma need apply. So, yeah, in some situations the Dist.Stike Adept is better, but he has to pay for those advantages. And there are definatly some situations in which he'll be worse.

Some people advocate the use of the Maneuvers Zoning and/or Herding to negate the Close Combat Maneuver.

For God's sakes gentlemen, the "reach"/range of Distance Strike is only (Magic) meters. Just bring out ya gun and plug him if you are that close.

You ever think that the best thing to challenge a melee specialist might just maybe not be melee?

~J

Of course, Rattler. Ever taken a look at those "Streetfighter"-type games? How much more difficult is it to fight someone without range combat abilities?

Under the standard rules, a melee combatant gets to counterattack anyone else making a melee attack. With Distance Strike, that ability is rendered completely useless; opponents now stand no chance to defend themselves against the Distance Strike using combatant.

Example: You have two opponents. One has Kung Fu 10 while the other is an adept with Kung Fu 6. In a fight, the adept gets his ass handed to him, but not for several turns as he's still able to counter many of the non-adept's successes.

Now give him Distance Strike. In one phase, the adept can now send all 12+ dice at the non-adept Kung Fu master... and the Kung Fu master's skill is rendered completely moot. The only option he has is to dodge.

The house rule, on the other hand, still gives the Kung Fu master a chance. If he had Close Combat, even moreso as it keeps Distance Strike in check. The canonical version does not and is impossible to keep in check outside of using insane mana warps and the like.

What he said.

...
Ok, this isn't worth my time, as it's fairly obvious that no one's actually been understanding what I've been saying. Have fun playing your way; I think it'll result in an increase rather than a decrease of the power of this ability, and I also think that the canon way the power works is fine, but as long as I'm not playing in your game it doesn't matter enough to me to keep arguing.

~J

I don't see how that's different than any cheap punk with a smartlink and a holster, though. He can just whip out his gun and pump the same uncounterattackable dice into the kung fu guy, and he even gets to shoot twice.

But the said punk suffers from firing a firearm in melee modifier.

Which is the POINT OF THE SMARTLINK. TN back at four. MAGIC.

~J, who is a glutton for punishment

The big thing you guys are missing is that yes, Distance Strike does roughly equivalent a gunslinger.

But what you're ignoring is that gunslingers still can get the bejeevus smacked out of them by a melee specialist. The only way to avoid it is to take a +2 TN modifier, and even then they still have no means of defending against the melee specialist's unarmed strikes (unless they invest in the points to get an unarmed skill of their own).

An adept with Distance Strike doesn't have that problem. Not only is he completely crippling melee specialists by making their unarmed skills wholly useless when the adept makes his attack, but the adept gets to fully defend against the melee specialist when he makes his attack.

What's more, the adept gets to pour all of his Power Points into powers that improve that one, single skill. Killing Hands works just as good at range as it does in melee. Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat) gives him bonus dice in both situations. etc.

The gunslinger, even an adept gunslinger, has to invest in twice as many things just to hope to have a chance. While the Distance Strike adept is not only turning all melee combatants into his personal bitch, but doing the same against non-melee combatants to boot.

Basically, under the current rules, the only way to challenge an adept with this power is to bring in a sniper or find some way to negate all of his magic. He has *no* challenge in combat, especially combat in close quarters like what you're likely to find in most shadowruns.

It's what, Magic meters of range? That's really not that much... more than a few situations will end up above that.

~J

Not as often as you suggest unless you regularly get into firefights in the open. Most of the ones in my games, for instance, take place indoors. 6 meters is a pretty good distance.

And again, even in those situations where it's not, it's infintely easier for the adept with Distance Strike to pick up a Firearms skill and slap on a Smartlink than it is for everyone else to equal their Unarmed Combat prowess -- not that it would matter, because Distance Strike completely renders it a wasted investment.

Gotta go with Kagetenshi. Most firefights end up at more than 6 M. Most of mine are at medium range, which is.. well, with a pistol is starts at 6M. Most often mine, at least, are nearer to 20M. Plus, the adept is going to have other problems with ranged attacks - like visibility penalties, for example - that the vast majority of gun characters won't have as many problems with.

Also, this is a 2 power point ability. Its not cheap. What else can you get with 2 power points? Well, for example, you could pick up S killing hands. Or better Increased Reflexes (or both depending on if you already have Increased Ref or not). 2 power points is not nothing. Its a pretty hefty investment, 1/3 of your adept's original ability points. He should get something decent with it.

Regardless...

Wouldn't a better house rule just be to establish a min. range? If you want to tone it down, just say that, yes, you don't have to actually hit through the last bit of air and touch your opponent to do damage, but you still have to go through the motions and if you're in melee range they can still grab your arm and break it, i.e. if you're fighting in melee, its a normal melee attack and not a ranged attack. If your opponent is in melee range but holding a gun or not ready for unarmed or melee or something it works like it normally would (i.e. as ranged).

I still don't think its overpowered. I think this houserule underpowers it, personally. But for those of you who are bitching about its insane unbeatability, is this something you would consider?

Nope. My answer is to totally remove the ultra-cheesy Anime Power from the game.

Small and extremely basic example of how gun bunny and Distance Strike Uberadepts encounters end up:

I will definitely have some sympathy tears for the poor (not even munchkin) gunbunny who at char gen gets:
- Wired Reflexes 2 (or lvl 3 with second hand cyber)
- Smartlink 2
- the now ubiquitous Ambidexterity, with two CUSTOMIZED & smartlinked(Handgrip is good) PM in Burst Fire
- the innocuous Suprathyroid Gland + Enhanced Articulations
- basic unarmed combat skill, with of course Close Combat
- PM skill (without specialization, or signature weapon) at 6
(the list is FAR from being remotely exhaustive...)


So poor bunny guy, with all cyber senses, reflexes and all will have a tough time against uberadept (let's give him Improved Martial arts skill at lvl 4 + Distance Strike + Killing Hands M: all his Power Points are already spent).

Now poor gun bunny gets initiative, doesn't he? Nobody seriously pictures the char gen adept with Distance Strike + Improved Unarmed Combat getting Init!
It's a statistical fact that an average 9 + 3D6 beats an average 5 + 1D6.

[B]Now gunnie, having Init, rolls:
- short distance case: 8 dice for his 1st PM against target # of 2 (no combat pool needed), we call it 6 statistical successes with every two successes staging one Level up from 10G!!!
- melee range case: 14 dice for his 1st PM against target # of 4 (6 combat pool dice), we call it 7 statistical successes with every two successes staging one Level up from 10G!!!


Odds are Uberadept's Combat Pool and Body + Armor won't let him make it to his Action Phase to retaliate with the Distance Strike![/B]


THEN THE BEAUTY OF IT, IS GUNNIE GETS TO FIRE HIS SECOND BURSTS...

- medium range case: (Distance Strike out-ranged) gunnie fires in Burst mode twice with each PM, shreds of Uberadept fail to reply

Uberadept's epitaph will read something like "I was too tough for him, but I was fucked cause couldn't counter-attack his hail of bullets"

You want game balance, then let's talk game balance!
I PROPOSE TO ALLOW THE ADEPTS SOME SPECIAL ADDITIONAL POOL EQUAL TO HIS MAGIC ATTRIBUTE FOR DODGING BULLETS, SPELLS AND DRONES, I'M NOT EVEN TALKING OF COUNTER-ATTACKING THEM, keep my ambitions low, ain't Keanu!


And thanks stop whining about how adepts are unbalanced, BECAUSE it's not the case.
They generally excell in few fields and are out of their league in most others.

The thing is that most players having adepts play them more tactically and cleverly than the average sammies, whom as already mentionned in this thread, get very bad publicity for character survival, as they are often played by newbies or other people who don't use all factors of the system.

P.S.: of course, joking bout the Dodge pool, but it has already been considered in now caduc Canon.
Current Canon is quite well balanced, so I really fail to understand all this perpetual fuss about adepts...

No reason for Killing Hands M, so a few more levels of Improved Ability, but otherwise exactly.

~J

I still fail to see your point.

Distance Strike, Improved Ability 6, and Improved Reflexes 2 (all geased) is available to a starting adept. And with only 6 Skill points spent on a Martial Art (12 with Maneuvers) and no financial obligation, he still has plenty of points and resources to pick up Pistols and a Smartlink-2, which he can geas off again. Not that it matters, really. He'd be better off getting Vision Magnification (or shaving a point of Improved Ability off to get Vision Magnification) and slapping a laser sight on his pistol, since he'd only need to use it at Medium range or greater, at which point the laser sight meets or beats a Smartlink's bonus.

Hardly a massive investment, leaving tons of potential for the character to do whatever else he likes. The gunslinger you designed above is still SOL if forced into a melee situation. He has no defense or remotely equal potential against the adept. The adept, on the otherhand, is on the same footing as the gunslinger in his one and only "area of expertise."

Note that I personally don't like Distance Strike at all -- this house rule or not. I'm just saying that this house rule makes it a much more sane power, not that that's saying much in the first place.

DOC: your adept is so geased up to the bone that I really wonder how he will ever effectively use any combo of his Powers.

+ I kept to the basic example.

Then, if you want average Init, in my book it's:

adept: (R=6, I=4), even with your geased Improved Reflexes 2: 5+3D6

gunslinger as per my basic example: (R=6, I=4) + Reaction bonus (Suprathyroid=1 + Reflexes=4 to 6 + Enhanced Articulations=1) + Reflexes 2 or 3: worst uncrunched case: 11 + 3D6 to easily 13 + 4D6.

Statistically the odds of the adept acting first are extremely low, so I stand my point.

(I had orgotten to mention in previous post about Recoil Compensators for the PM...)

Yeah, say a Talisman and a Condition (Sober) is so crippling 99% of the time. Woe is he.

And if you really want to put your knickers in your twist, replace the adept's Improved Reflexes 2 with Quick Strike. Now your gunslinger's initiative doesn't mean much of anything unless he can withstand, what, 18+ dice from an unarmed strike that can't be resisted and is using his Impact armor instead of Ballistic?

That's providing the adept can get within range, which is nonassured.
As for the geasa, a point that I recently had pointed out to me is that with adepts, the GM chooses the geas rather than the player, and so it may well be rather more crippling than the example you suggest.

~J

Exactly, and the GM job is to ensure that exotic powers like Distance Strike for example should come along with exotic/contraignant geasa, as Distance Strike adepts are rumoured to exist as per Canon.

I would never allow Distance Strike power without suitable background!!

Btw, "condition: sober geas" always echoes in my mind the cool centering skill: Flame thrower

<rolls his eyes>

Geasa are NOT designed to be limiting most of the time. They are designed to be limiting on occassion. Some moreso than others. They are not crippling in any way, shape, or form unless you go out of your way to do so. In practice, they're effectively equal to Alphagrade implants for cyberware enthusiasts (hence the 25% discount and occassional problems versus a 20% discount and double cost).

Or what, do you only allow characters to take a Gesture Geasa if they're quadraplegic? And let me guess, Incantation is only a valid geas if you're mute? Only people in a wheelchair can take the Dancing Geas? The Talisman geas can only be taken if you regularly leave it at home? That's pathetic GMing.

Disabling an adept with Condition (Sober) is as easy as hitting him with a narcojet or exposing him to tear gas. Disabling an adept with a Talisman is as easy as taking the talisman away from him. Should either be a regular scenario? No. Should it come up on rare occassions? Yes.

Get a frellin' clue and stop trying to prove your point by making such lame little accusations like that. The two I listed above were right off the top of my head and perfectly reasonable for an adept. You just have your panties in a twist 'cause it counters whatever point you were trying to make.

And Kage, the GM only selects the geas if the adept suffers Magic Loss (and that's arguable; the reading suggests that the GM selects which powers get the geas, not the geas itself). Read the paragraph after that one where it talks about accepting geas for lowering the cost of a power.

@ Rice Bowl: I totally agree, except: not allowing Distance Strike in because its only rumored. If you're going to allow magicians to use, say, metamagic or summon watchers or use any of the totems or spells from MitS, why would you limit the adept powers as rumored?

@ Doctor F:

Yes, I can see how you translate "not meant to be limiting most of the time," which you even quoted, into meaning "never limiting whatsoever." Despite examples and a more indepth description of what I was talking about.

Silly me. You were right and I was wrong. I bow before your infinite wisdom and incredulous insight.

@Prospero

Actually, what you are describing is similar to the Initiatory Groups/Ninja (martial arts) strictures/drawbacks. But there are people who simply "manifest" abilities or are guided by their imagination/psyche etc, so purposely limiting a power, any power, is quite ridiculous.