martaindv: So the devs should go back and redo books because some people don't like them? That doesn't seem like a very good way to stay in business. I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but out curiosity what didn't you like about Loose Alliances? Or rather, what were you expecting it to be?

------

I am a little curious why so many people would want a rewrite of Shadowbeat? I have a copy and I can't remember the last time I felt the need to actually read it. The cover alone usually deters me from wanting to open it.

I don't mean to say that anyone's idea for their "dream book" is bad but, it seems to me like a lot of people want 4th edition updates of fluff books that are perfectly usable except for a few numbers here and there. Why redo things like Prime Runners, Loose Alliances, Threats 1 and 2, Target:Wastelands, the Sprawl Survival Guide or Shadowbeat when you could just buy an old or used copy and update the fluff to fit your campaign? Do you really need a book to tell you how things have developed?

BTW Shadowbeat is available on Amazon for only $8 US.

Good God Man That Cover is ATROCIOUS!!!

A book the size of Shadows of Europe devoted entirely to the espionage game and spies. Done in a generally serious and realistic manner, but with a section on how to play it in a more Queen & Country style for players that want a bit more action.



If you don't mind my asking what did you consider that was mis-sold about it?

Kind of. It just helps set the tone for the game. Which I could do on my own of course, but it would be nice if I knew I was on the same page as everyone else. Basically, the more "fluff" there is, the more common ground I'm going to have with other SR players when I run into them. I used to be able to say "Nerps." and people I'd never met before would know what I was talking about. That was nice. NERPS in general are nice.

HA!

Yeah. That'll happen. But this is definitely the thread for it. You're just begging for more Games of State nonsense.


It's been so long since I tossed it aside that I can't quite say. But all I remember is that its description was of a book that I really wanted because it'd be useful. What I got was a useless book with nothing I wanted.

Method, my point is this: I want a book like Secret Societies of Barsaive. Not Loose Alliances. They are two distinctly different books in style, content, and utility.

I swear to God. I wanted to vomit, punch whoever wrote the Neo-Communist section in the throat, and then suffocate them in my puddle of vomit. It was a fucking travesty and whoever wrote it should be ashamed of themselves.

I have a very simple request: I would like to see a novel about Shadowrun that is written by someone who has won a Nebula. The reason for demanding a Nebula writer is someone who is a real writer of science fiction and not a 16 year old boy with raging hormones and a keyboard.

-Chrysalis

How about a 28-year old with raging hormones and a keyboard?

I think I aught to start a poll, for what its worth it would send a clear message of which book we as players are most itching for. Good marketing info at the very least.
Lemme see, we got:

Fortress
Rigger 4
Critters
Playelf/troll
Comprehensive Historical Atlas

I am leaving Shadows of Latin America out because apparently it is already in the making. I forget anything?

Book of Stuff that did not make it into outher books, for whatever reasons . .

Is in all likelihood not going to be made in the format as originally described.



It has already been announced that there will not be a Rigger 4.



Running Wild is already scheduled, and may already be in (pre-)production.



Um ... yeah.



Something akin to this was put out in German (Die 6 Wold?), but it was somehow decided that an English release was not warranted.



It was 'made' years ago, even before the switch to 4th edition. As such, it is not likely to see the light of day in that format. The information is probably being cannibalized for other location books and the upcoming Ghost Cartels.

Well damn. If only I'd checked this thread before I went and made the poll. I feel nice and silly now, don't I?

Yeah, I pulled up Die .6 Der Welt in an earlier post. Even found a copy of it on German Amazon!

But alas, no one follows my carefully hidden links.

***

I want a 4e Shadowbeat because it was a wealth of information on the culture of the Sixth World...in the '50s. That's twenty years ago game time. A lot has changed since. It was a good fluffy book that gave us trid channels, Urban Brawl teams, the music industry...and gave rules and guidelines on how to do non-standard Shadowrun games. It was an interesting snapshot of 2050, basically.

Why not a good snapshot of the world of 2070? There's the world info in the beginning of the BBB, but it could be expanded while giving guidelines on different kinds of games as well.

But I realize that it's probably never going to be in the works, and I am in the process of trying to convert around some of those pop star / investigative reporter rules (when I'm not killing myself trying to write a book and other roleplaying pursuits) - it's just a wish

Well if we're going to shoot for the moon then, how about a revised Lone Star book?

Do you write yourself and leather clad supemodel look alike elves into your stories so that they can save the world and "fall in love"?

-Chrysalis

Doesn't everyone?

I would if that was part of my p-fix BTL chip and I was actually a shapeshifter being used as a mobile food source by a group of ghouls.

Alright I totally stole that from Hyz.

But were they really that bad? Were they Gorean fantasy bad?

Gorean fantasy at least had men without shirts.

Did these leather clad elf ninja's happen to fall in love with other similarly clad female elves?

I've noticed that as a theme over the years.

I gave up on the novels sometime after Dragonheart... did I miss a Mary Sue trend?

And I vote for a "dark and gritty underworld sourcebook" written by Chrysalis.

Well, the Elf was leather-clad, but he wasn't any supermodel. Although, he was buff enough for Mr. Olympia, but that's because of the Muscle Augmentation that screwed up his NASCAR career.

And I haven't written myself, no. *Points at sig for stories*

If someone is willing to fund me I would be happy to work on a Shadowrun sourcebook. I used to write Edgerunner the Cyberpunk 2020 fanzine, a (self)published work, so I even have credit to my name. I currently do proofreading professionally from journal articles to doctoral discertations.

I have also walked on the dangerous side of life.

I will warn though that I can be a bit of a bastard behind the 'board.

Did we need an Arsenal book when Catalyst could have simply given us an conversion table for Street Samurai Catalog, Rigger Black Book, Fields of Fire, etc. etc. etc.? No, but I'm glad they did as it took what was best of all those books and smushed it together in a convenient SR4 package. That's what I'd like of a Neo-Anarchists Guide to Real Life, Sprawl Survival Guide, and Shadowbeat mash-up. Also an update on the newer game concepts and how they affect the game world, like AR, and updated rules on custom cost-of-living, domestic drones, etc.

After all I can only fit so many books in my backpack when I go GM at a friend's house. I'd like them to be compact... and good.

Yeah, the cover is corny, but really, that was one of the coolest little books they put out. Popular culture, news and entertainment are important and I think Shadowbeat really is a showcase for just how much thought was put into those things. A lot has changed since it came out. For example, who could have predicted the rise of the blogosphere back then? Plus, I want to know who got new expansion teams and whether or not Baking With Aunt Sally is still on the air.

Well fair enough then. I guess I just kind of assume that all that stuff is still there and run with it, but you guys do present some good reasoning.

To answer Wesley Street's question though:

Did we really need Arsenal? Yes. The gear lists are cool, but thats not the only thing in the book. It has some essential core rules that needed to be updated to the 4th Ed (advanced vehicle rules, weapon and vehicle mods, sensors, indirect fire, martial arts, hostile environments, etc). A lot of the value of those other books (NAGTEE, Shadowbeat, SSG, etc) is fluff that is not affected by the drastic change in game mechanics. When you make radical changes to the core game mechanics, rules DO require updating. Fluff no so much.

I should point out that many of the actual rules in those fluffy source books have worked their way into the core rules over the years (simsense recorders for example were introduced in Shadowbeat and can now be found in the BBB). Also, many of the weapons and armor in Arsenal are in fact updated from books like the Neo Anarchists Guide to Everything Else.

That's debatable and depends on what kind of game you run. For me, up-to-date "fluff" and background material are equally as important as optional rules on combat and tricking out your ride. After Unwired and the Paracritter books are released what other Shadowrun-essential rules need expanding?

Well, you're right. After Unwired and Running Wild we will have a complete up-to-date rules set. Which I think is great. In fact, as cool as Ghost Cartels and Feral Cities sound, I'd rather have Unwired and Running Wild before any more story arch or location books.

And to be clear, I don't mean to detract from anyones enjoyment of the game. Fluff is equally as important, no doubt about it. My point was more so that fluff is not dependent on game mechanics.

Agreed. Releasing core rules books, then locations books, then story arc books/adventure modules would have made more sense but we're always going to be at the mercy of license/property changes and internal editing and politicking from the publishers and developers.

Cities of Intrigue, Running Wild, Strange Places, and Feral Cities are all on the burner.

I would like War Zones, Destroying News, and The Monofilament Edge to get onto the burner. But of course, I have no control of that nor do I have any more input into the process than anyone else here.

-Frank

do you OR ANYBODY ELSE LEGIT wish to elaborate/comment on those last 3 ?

Actually, I'd like to hear a little about what Cities of Intrigue, Running Wild, and Strange Places are about?

Running Wild is a critter book. Think D&D's Monster Manual. Cities of Intrigue & Strange Places sound familiar but cannot remember anything about them. I may have to review the chat logs.

Regardless, I am fairly certain all but the last 3 have been explained.

cities of intrigue is crazy places . . there will be runner havens, corporate enclaves and cities of intrigue, all of those will be featuring some cities of a certain flavour . . strange places will most likely deal with things like the sox, australian outbacks and the such . . maybe shadowrun in space, orbital stations, moon and mars stations and such things . . under water places perhaps

Running Wild is going to be quite a bit more than just a Monster Manual. It is supposed to deal with all kinds of ways to incorporate Critters into the game. It isn't going to be just a list of Critter stats.

I never said otherwise, although it may have been implied with Monster Manual...

So far we know it will include statistics for critters, rules for rearing/training, equipment designed for critters, and we can assume, detailed information on their environment, tendencies, sociology, and culture (for the sapient ones).

Oooooooooooooooooooo...

My favourite Johnson loves to hunt Big Game, and, in Shadowrun, that means Awakened!

He's got his Holland & Holland .600 Nitro Express already oiled up after "A Night To Never Remember"...

(Link included in body, because noone reads my Sig )

It's cool. I just wanted to make sure people weren't thinking Running Wild was going to be just a big list of monster stats.

Releasing things in lumps of "rules" then "fluff" then "story" is very dangerous; you risk alienating those who are only interested in 1 or 2 of those three, and in the case of "rules before fluff and story" you can end up creating a game that's very hard for new players to get into -- they just see piles and piles of rules.

Nobody will deny that the SR4 release schedule wasn't good, but we've been working hard at Catalyst to get it up to speed, provide a good mix of book types, and fill some long-awaited requests [as long as they make good business sense. ]

Seemed like SR was in five kinds of hell for awhile, there, Adam!

As one long-time fan who has been wanting to play since '92, thank you!

We need like Shadowrun concert shirts so we can all clump off into cliches at con's and mutter about how the new guys just don't understand what it was like before the band made it big...

The focus of Running Wild was originally to be basically the Savage Species of Shadowrun. But with all the extra goodies being shifted into Runner's Companion, it seems that the focus of Running Wild is moving back to a Paranormal Animals book, though I would bet actual money that you'll see some tie ins with Augmentation.


Feral Cities is a location book based on lawless hellholes. Chicago receives top billing.
Cities of Intrigue is a location book based on espionage. London is highly expected by most.
Strange Places is a location book based on far out stuff. Probable inclusions would be one of the space stations, one of the undersea bases, and one of the metaplanar staging areas. Other contenders include the Antarctic City dig, Lhasa, and Alice Springs.

War Zones is a proposed book which is a combination location book and Fields of Fire update for SR4. Balkans, Central Africa, Central America, and Southeast Asia are obvious chapter headers.
The Monofilament Edge is a proposed book which is a combination of Awakenings and Shadowtech for SR4. Like a SotA book, but crunchier and crazier. Like Lugosi and Karloff crazier.
Destroying News is a proposed book which is a combination of Shadowbeat and Neo Anarchists Guide to Real Life. Meme warfare from street level up to nation building. Kind of a Horizon plot-book too I think.

No idea if the last ones are going forward, but I hope so.

-Frank

Damn, those looks awesome...

Really, really, REALLY wants Destroying News!!!

Secret Societies of the Sixth World, similar to Earthdawn's Secret Societies of Barsaive, about all the conspiracies out there in the Shadowrun world.

ZOMG!!! YES!!!!!! They could have art from SR1 on them. It would be SO cool! I'm in; let's make this happen.

yay! I'll go grab the crayons!

It's been so long since I've seen a 1st ed book. Was the art really as painful as I remember?

Well, the cover wasn't painful.

Let's see. Alex Ross and Tim Bradstreet were among the artists who did internal art on SR1 books, so...

No. You must be remembering wrong.

Or you're blind.



Real hardcore vets still have their swag from FASA.

Was it second edition than? I clearly remember one of the sample characters being colored in with what looked like crayons or... pastels... badly.

Cities of Legacy

A mixture of Archaeology of the 6th World mixed with T:AL formatted along the same lines as the other city books.

First edition had the crayon archetypes. Most of the rest of the art was pretty good though.

I think i just never got over the archetype art being so very not good. *sigh*
I guess i'll have to bum around for a 1st ed book, just to round out my collection.