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Dr Funfrock
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 8 2008, 11:31 PM) *
Didn't you read the bit where frank pointed out the flaws in that approach. Ie that I can use manabarrier instead and it has less drain and comes up faster. It's even more effective, as while it defends those inside, friends of the creator are completely unaffected by it, so you can still lay down a barrage on those outside.


A mana barrier does not have many of the additional utility effects of mana-static. It doesn't also shut down enemy mages for one thing, which can be really useful when facing large numbers of awakened forces. What's more, a spirit can force it's way through a mana-barrier, but if they come into mana-static they are guaranteed to suffer some kind of ill effects.

I don't disagree that tweaking the effects of mana-static might also warrant tweaking the drain-code, I'm just arguing that there is a place in the game for effects which take a little time to prepare. It's the same as, say, setting a bunch of trip-wire explosives; a perfectly valid and effective tactic if you have the time, and if you do it properly. Not every group of runners is going to make use of it, but then not every group of runners makes use of many of the more interesting spells. They're still there for the people that do find interesting ways to build tactics around them.

In the end, nothing else out there can match the ability to deny 10 enemy phys-ads access to their powers whilst your party of mundanes wails on them, all for the cost of your mage not casting some spells which enemy spell defence would likely nullify anyway. If that effect comes with some required preparation, I don't particularly see that as unreasonable. Sure, not every party has just a mage and a bunch of norms, but then not every party is going to make use of these kind of tactics.

As always, your mileage may vary, but I'm offering up a different way of looking at the game. I've never really seen Shadowrun as a pure "run-and-gun" action game, and that should be reflected in more than just the legwork, but also in how your players react to situations during play.
Cthulhudreams
I guess my problem is that in my experience the only things worth having are offensive capabilities, low profile defense capabilities and ambush capabilities. 'static' mana static is none of those things. It is big, obvious and many of the people that would be effected by it can see it. The reason static visable defenses are useless is much the same reason that panther cannons are useless. You need to avoid a symmetric conflict to live in SR verse, because team corporation has bigger guns.

It is a huge world apart from tripwire explosives. That is a very deadly ambush that is very hard to see. Mana static doesn't do that though. Mages can actually see it from quite a distance off, so they won't walk into it and will in stead shell you from outside. For those that cannot see it, they step in, know they are in a very nasty background count, and take a step backwards, then overcast a force 9 stunball that really isn't affected by a force 4 mana static because they are not standing in it. Or throw a grenade. Or whatever.

Its really not even in the same league. You've actually gone backwards, because your magic 6 mage standing in the r4 count is unable to cast spells, but the magic 6 mage standing outside IS able to cast spells and can get right on with killing you.

Now if you changed it so it had no obvious indicators until someone tried to do something, it might actually be quite good because I can use it as an ambush. But, alas, no, it doesn't, it just says "Killing ground here, please grenade or suppress overlooking positions"

Now for the other problem. While it would still have uses, I have to spend 3 BP and use one of my 8 spell slots to take the spell. It has to be better than shape metal, control thoughts or detect life.
Apathy
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 9 2008, 03:52 AM) *
Mages can actually see it from quite a distance off, so they won't walk into it and will in stead shell you from outside. For those that cannot see it, they step in, know they are in a very nasty background count, and take a step backwards, then overcast a force 9 stunball that really isn't affected by a force 4 mana static because they are not standing in it.

My understanding of background count is that the force 9 stunball would effectively be a force 5 stunball for all targets operating inside the perimeter of the mana static spell. Not nearly as good as if he stayed in the perimeter and had his magic reduced to 1 (and therefore could only cast at a max power of force 2), but still a significant benifit.

A related question might be: where would this spell see common use?
    Quickened into tanks and APCs to keep manifesting spirits out.
    Cast on airplanes to enforce rules against magic use.
    Cast in bottlenecks that the runners have to go through when entering/leaving a secure facility.
    Where else?
FrankTrollman
Quickening Mana Static is impossible because it is already "permanent."

Putting Mana Static on an airplane is a bad tactic because you could have put a spirit on the plane instead that would protect and enhance the plane with Guard and Movement. If you have that kind of Drain code to spare on a single plane, you'd want to use Conjuring, not Sorcery.

Putting mana static on a "bottleneck" is a worthless tactic because it makes the killing ground visible. There's no such thing as an area that people "have" to go through, if nothing else they can use magic or explosives to cut through a wall. There are merely areas that are easier and areas which are harder to go through. If you put traps on areas that are easy to go through they may well work because enemies are likely to take easy routes. But if you label those trapped areas you're just giving tactical tempo to the enemy. Suddenly they only go through those areas if they know something you don't instead of vice versa.

So no, none of those plans are good. Mana Static is good if you want to suppress all magic in a small area in an emergency situation. That's it. That's all it does. If you make it so that it doesn't happen in an emergency amount of time, it doesn't do anything at all.

-Frank
Faelan
I have certainly come around on my thinking as regards Mana Static. It really does need to be full effect right away, or it is useless. And seeing as how I misread it previously (I thought it provided a negative background, which it apparently does not), it no longer bothers me from a metaphysics standpoint. I denying someone an area in an obvious way does have uses, but I could just as easily do it in a mundane fashion. Using a slow build up in an area, would result in a spell very rarely used.

Tarantula
My only complaint with mana static (as well as physical barrier/mana barrier and the like) is that they don't give an enemy mage(or spirit if it has magical guard) in their area of effect a counterspelling roll against them. Give that, and they'd be A'OK by me.
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