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Iota
Hi all!

Today there are a lot of different secret services agencies covering the various fields of espionage, security matters and other stuff.

In the SR 4 rules so far only the FBI is covered, but I was wondering whether there still would be some other secret service agencies.

Since there are a bunch of people out there doing a lot of great work improving the sixth world with their own stuff, I wanted to ask if anyone already had some ideas on this topic.

CanRay
Well, there's "No Such Agency". nyahnyah.gif

And, IIRC, the Department of Water and Wastewater, "DWW", has special teams for dealing with issues in the sewers... Which have gotten much worse after Magic came back...
nezumi
Good catch on the DWW. They were involved one of the novels (my first introduction to Shadowrun, actually).

In the US, we currently have the NSA, FBI, CIA, Secret Service, DOD branches and DHS all involved in what you might consider 'spying' or intelligence gathering. I expect that the corporations have also all invested themselves in some degree or another into the business, both contracting out to government, and for corporate purposes (keep in mind, like all other lines of business, government operates very different from corporate, even if you're just a contractor). Corporate Court most likely has one as well, for what it's worth.
vladski
QUOTE (Iota @ Jun 10 2008, 10:12 AM) *
Hi all!

Today there are a lot of different secret services agencies covering the various fields of espionage, security matters and other stuff.

In the SR 4 rules so far only the FBI is covered, but I was wondering whether there still would be some other secret service agencies.

Since there are a bunch of people out there doing a lot of great work improving the sixth world with their own stuff, I wanted to ask if anyone already had some ideas on this topic.


While it's not exactly "canon" per se, the 2006 Gencon Tournament "Third Law" (sponsored by the kind folks that produce SR) featured runners composed of several UCAS agencies, including:
CIA
FBI
ATF
Federal Marshals
Homeland Security

The mission was a joint deal seeking out a terrorist.

In my own world, my players are Federal Marshals that were hired from the ranks of Lonestar to make up a special task force. Their commander is the character I played in that tourney, Marshal Nelson ("I am NOT a field agent!") who was assigned his own task squad about a year after the timeline of the adventure ended.

Vlad
nezumi
(grr.. post got stuck in the tubes...)

I'm really wondering what ATF is up to in 2050. In 2008, they mostly harass legitimate gun vendors. However, seeing as the illicit gun trade isn't just flourishing, but seems to be generally encouraged, I don't think they're into that any more. They won't be heading into the barrens to shut down any illegal stills either, although they could be active in combating BTLs. Regardless, makes me think either they've completely reinvented themselves again (certainly not unheard of), or they disappeared with the creation of the UCAS and were never revived. I won't be shedding any tears for them.

Secret Service was originally formed to deal with counterfeit currency. They were part of Department of Treasury until 2003. Now they're part of DHS and have mostly dropped the whole counterfeiting gig. I'm sure, however, there's a special division of people who deal with counterfeiting, especially counterfeiting SINs and electronic bank information. It would have to be a branch of hackers with lots of cop thugs at their beck and call. Kinda scary, now that I think about it.
Wesley Street
SOMEBODY's gotta harass those legitimate gun vendors. And who is going to control unregulated booze and tobacco if not the ATF? wink.gif I may be wrong about this but I believe the Lone Star Sourcebook stated that the ATF, along with the DEA, was purchased from the UCAS government by Lone Star.

One of the most (in)famous corporate intelligence agents were the Seraphim, under Cross Applied Technologies. But since Cross is either gone or greatly reduced in scale with the death of its CEO and an aggressive take-over by arch-rival Ares Macro, I don't know what the final fate of the Seraphim would be.

If the USSS is part of the DHS now who handles counterfeiting?
Drogos
I have the Seraphim infiltrating Ares and the leaders defecting to Horizon to continue their war against Damien Knight (the devil). Knight believes he is getting control of the information database and the spy network with his aquisitions, but he is in for a rude awakening in a handful of years. But that is just my storyline for them. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
Wesley Street
Ex-Seraphim would make for a most excellent runner backstory.

There's a listing of civilian government agencies working in Seattle in Runner Havens but unfortunately I don't have my copy on me at the moment. I'd assume Joint Task Force Seattle would have an Army HUMINT and SIGINT unit attached to it.
nezumi
Secret Service still does counterfeiting, it's just not their number 1 priority (#1 is protecting the prez, obviously).
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 10 2008, 12:46 PM) *
Secret Service still does counterfeiting, it's just not their number 1 priority (#1 is protecting the prez, obviously).


Which is funny considering the number of times that Presidents have survived only due to incompetent assassins compared to the number of assasination attempts that they actually stopped. (10 assasination attempts have failed due to assassin incompetence, 1 due to bystander intervention, 1 due to local police intervention (in Kuwait), and 1 due to secret service security measures). In 2005 someone threw a grenade at George Bush. It fell short because the the assassin accidentally hit a girl with it failed to detonate due to a defect of some sort. Had the Assassin actually had good aim and a different grenade Cheney would be President right now.
Method
If you want obscure check out the OST... you do know the OST don't you??

[edit]The DOE also maintains Special Response Teams which are supposedly some of the baddest of the bad when it comes to SWAT operations.[/edit]
nezumi
I didn't know their record was so weak. That said, Shadowrun notwithstanding, actually jumping in front of a bullet is pretty tough.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jun 10 2008, 03:47 PM) *
I didn't know their record was so weak. That said, Shadowrun notwithstanding, actually jumping in front of a bullet is pretty tough.


It is really an issue of the impossibility of building a perfect defense against modern weapons in public appearances combined with the fact that attackers can pick and choose their time and place to best exploit flaws in defense. Also, the vast majority of people who consider assasination are mentally ill and never get close to their targets due too poor planning. Those few who are sane and who plan well are far more likely to get close enough to actually make an attempt and far more likely to succeed.
Wesley Street
Another obscure agency is the Diplomatic Security Service (which is part of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security). Their agents come from all walks of life and they are unique in that they're both legal diplomats and law-enforcement officers. Their agents handle protection, cyber, info and physical security issues at embassies; and investigate terrorist activities caused by Americans on foreign soil.
Mäx
SOTA 2064 has a whole chapters about spies and differend inteligence agencies. It has a fluff pieces for:
-CIA(UCAS)
-UGB(Russia)
-Mossad(Israel)
-Argus(MET 2000)
-ERLA(CAS)
-Information Secretariat(Tir Tairngire)
-MI-5(UK)
-MIFD(Shiawase)
-Seraphim(Former Cross Applied Technologies)
-Watchers(Dunkelzahn)
Faelan
The Secret Service stops a multitude of potential threats to the president every year. The problem is that when doing executive protection you are inevitably at a huge disadvantage, all it takes is someone who knows what they are doing and is willing to die accomplishing their mission. It is a testament to their professionalism that pretty much any assassination attempt that might have a chance of success occurs at close range. The fact that they shut down the long range options so effectively, that ot have any chance of success it has to be up close, well then you are dealing with a crowd and the threats multiply. I don't care how good you are it's impossible to completely protect someone who is consistently doing things counter to good protection.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Iota @ Jun 10 2008, 03:12 PM) *
In the SR 4 rules so far only the FBI is covered, but I was wondering whether there still would be some other secret service agencies.

Since there are a bunch of people out there doing a lot of great work improving the sixth world with their own stuff, I wanted to ask if anyone already had some ideas on this topic.


Going from memory the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is still about and has now become the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Telesma (ATF&T) to cover the magic angle. The US Marshals Service merged with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aka. the Mounties when what was left of the US and Canada joined together to form the UCAS and seem to be the guys in charge of the matrix now, I want to say it's mentioned in Target: Matrix, as well as their current day jobs. The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is still going strong and now has BTLs to deal with as well. As you've already mentioned the FBI is also there and I'm sure that I've seen mentions of the Secret Service in one place or another but I'll let someone else drag out an actual reference for it. They also seem to have retconned the World Trade Centre terrorist attacks and creation of the Department of Homeland security into Shadowrun's back-history, something I have fairly mixed feelings about at best, so you've also got them as the central clearinghouse as well. I'm sure there are more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

For intelligence agencies I was working on collecting together what had been mentioned in the sourcebooks so far and Raygun used to have a sub-site on his pages about them that grew out of a thread I started here in the forums but unfortunately real got in the way of things for me and Ray's site disappeared during the last big maintenance overhaul of the main dumpshock site IIRC. And since he's not really playing all that much nowadays or interested in Fourth Edition I doubt it'll be back up any time soon. I keep meaning to have a chat with him about it.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Faelan @ Jun 10 2008, 05:41 PM) *
The Secret Service stops a multitude of potential threats to the president every year. The problem is that when doing executive protection you are inevitably at a huge disadvantage, all it takes is someone who knows what they are doing and is willing to die accomplishing their mission. It is a testament to their professionalism that pretty much any assassination attempt that might have a chance of success occurs at close range. The fact that they shut down the long range options so effectively, that ot have any chance of success it has to be up close, well then you are dealing with a crowd and the threats multiply. I don't care how good you are it's impossible to completely protect someone who is consistently doing things counter to good protection.


Potential doesn't really count. The vast majority of threats they investigate were never serious to begin with.

Long range attacks are still viable, though in many cases heavier weapons would be required. Roadside bombs and mines are effective against motorcades, though their use requires knowing potential routes in advance and they would probably be discovered upon inspection of the route. As an armored limo can't survive multiple anti-tank hits, the use of HEAT and HEDP weapons at range against motorcades is very effective. And, needless to say, anyone with a cruise missile could take him out effortlessly during a public address.
WeaverMount
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 10 2008, 06:23 PM) *
And, needless to say, anyone with a cruise missile could take him out effortlessly during a public address.

Assuming you can use it better than the Israelis
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (WeaverMount @ Jun 10 2008, 05:48 PM) *
Assuming you can use it better than the Israelis

Well the Israelis have a better hit ratio than the US of recent times, in the past times no ie USS Liberty. frown.gif But was that really a mis IDed target.

One could also use one of the UAV's to deliver a smart package into the target. FYI the US Military is not the only one with arm able UAV's.

But as some have already posted gaining the information of the route will allow some interesting weapons to be used.

WMS
Faelan
QUOTE
Long range attacks are still viable, though in many cases heavier weapons would be required. Roadside bombs and mines are effective against motorcades, though their use requires knowing potential routes in advance and they would probably be discovered upon inspection of the route. As an armored limo can't survive multiple anti-tank hits, the use of HEAT and HEDP weapons at range against motorcades is very effective. And, needless to say, anyone with a cruise missile could take him out effortlessly during a public address.


Long range attacks are viable assuming once again you know where, when, and how. Yes much heavier weapons are needed. Good luck getting anything man portable to affect that armored car. HEAT weapons that are man portable, and at least somewhat concealable are also pretty inaccurate at range. HEDP won't do much to it, and once again anything I can think of that you might be using is pretty damn inaccurate. Yes anyone with a cruise missile could, quite right about that, know anyone who has access. Every option you mentioned was very high risk, with a minimal success chance, not the way someone is going to go because of the degree of deterrence. Snipers are always an option with a much better chance of actually hitting the target however that's why exposure is usually limited, and if not the venue is controlled and likely firing positions are covered by fire. The Secret Services job sucks, but if they were not there we would go through presidents like water vis losing one here and there. So in my mind potentials do matter. Deterrence is the principal means of executive protection, because if someone wants your client dead bad enough it will come to a head, the shit will hit the fan and then it is a crap shoot whether they live or die.
hyzmarca
Anyone with sufficient programing knowledge could build an effective cruise missile guidance system from an of-the-shelf GPS device and a Playstation 2. Building an airframe and loading it up with explosives isn't terribly difficult or expensive. One can make RDX out of cleaning supplies. A good engine is expensive, but one can build a pulse-jet engine in a backyard from scrap parts.

Faelan
Only a couple of problems with that. One is the degree of ecm/eccm available in the convoy, number two is this badass toy. Chances are the ghetto cruise missile would get shot down.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Faelan @ Jun 10 2008, 08:27 PM) *
Only a couple of problems with that. One is the degree of ecm/eccm available in the convoy, number two is this badass toy. Chances are the ghetto cruise missile would get shot down.


That depends very much on cruising altitude and attack angle. Sufficient cruising altitude combined with a 90 degree attack angle would render anti-aircraft guns useless.
Caine Hazen
What, no love for the CAS Texas Rangers?
FlakJacket
Unless they've got radar or someone gets lucky and sees it coming in from far out I'm guessing that even a home made missile would likely be travelling too fast to be able to hit a lot of the time, even with a minigun. That video you posted looks more like it's for taking out ground targets than anything else and maybe slow moving, well slow in comparison to things like jet aircraft, aerial targets like helicopters.

But really would you even need anything that high tech? Mortars have to be some of the most basic weapons you can get and yet are still highly effective. With a moderately equipped engineering facility you should be able to build mortars that would be big enough and with enough bang to be able to be fired off from outside the main security zone surrounding a target, decent size ones have a range of 3 or 4 miles IIRC, and with a pretty good chance of taking them out.


QUOTE (Caine Hazen @ Jun 11 2008, 01:45 AM) *
What, no love for the CAS Texas Rangers?

We were saving that one for Wounded Ronin. Well contributing bad 80s television shows and films does seem to be his designated job around here. smile.gif
CanRay
Anyhow, UCAS Marshals might still be around, doing the job the US Marshals/RCMP did before, which was handle things that tresspass over multiple jurisdictions (Federal Prisoner transfers for example.).
FlakJacket
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Jun 11 2008, 12:21 AM) *
The US Marshals Service merged with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aka. the Mounties when what was left of the US and Canada joined together to form the UCAS and seem to be the guys in charge of the matrix now, I want to say it's mentioned in Target: Matrix, as well as their current day jobs.

QUOTE (CanRay @ Jun 11 2008, 01:56 AM) *
Anyhow, UCAS Marshals might still be around, doing the job the US Marshals/RCMP did before, which was handle things that tresspass over multiple jurisdictions (Federal Prisoner transfers for example.).

smile.gif
CanRay
Hey, not that far off! Sorry to have missed that.

And now I have another group of baddies to send after 'Runners.

...

Wait, in charge of the Matrix. That would mean they're on the UCAS Government Frontlines against Technomancers! vegm.gif
Faelan
Except thats not the only stuff they have available. You act as if this theoretical attack is occurring in a vacuum. Ever notice all the little Apache's in town when the prez is in town, or the frequency of low flying fast movers. I would bet money at least one of those suburbans is packing stingers on top of that. Altitude equals auto death for your cruise missile. Low altitude flight equals more obstacles and slower flight which makes it vulnerable. Sorry not buying that idea.
WearzManySkins
Why Reinvent the Wheel when such interesting systems are available on the Black Market.

Things like the TOW system, IIRC the Israeli's during one of their many encounters against tanks uses such a system for "sniping" at tanks at ranges beyond the listed range of the system. There are other similar "man portable" systems available too.

As for the Garage Cruise missile and the pop up mini gun, *shrugs*

There are currently missile systems in place that travel at mach 3+ for 250 nm, at 100,000+ feet and attack at a 85 degree dive angle. Very few systems in place today can touch such systems, the only one in the US Arsenal was retired ie the F-14 Tom Cat and it sole built purpose the AIM-54 Phoenix. Also the attacking missile systems can carry a Thermonuclear warhead so the need for precision targeting of the convoy is reduced greatly. Even Presidential Armored limo is not up of being in ground zero for a multi-kiloton warhead explosion.

WMS
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Jun 10 2008, 09:44 PM) *
Another obscure agency is the Diplomatic Security Service (which is part of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security). Their agents come from all walks of life and they are unique in that they're both legal diplomats and law-enforcement officers. Their agents handle protection, cyber, info and physical security issues at embassies; and investigate terrorist activities caused by Americans on foreign soil.

Speaking of the State Department another part of it that's good for interesting character backgrounds is the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, often just referred to as INR, their in-house intelligence organisation. It's nowhere near the size and funding of some of the other federal agencies but from some of the articles I've read they'll often beat them on correctly getting things right in certain areas, although that's not to say that they're always right.
Earlydawn
One of my favorite conspiracy theories is some kind of black ops component to NEST.
martindv
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Jun 10 2008, 07:21 PM) *
Going from memory the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is still about and has now become the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Telesma (ATF&T) to cover the magic angle.

Alchohol, Tobacco, Telesma and Firearms (ATTF), actually. There was a SR2 book that called it the AFT&M(agic).

QUOTE
The US Marshals Service merged with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aka. the Mounties when what was left of the US and Canada joined together to form the UCAS and seem to be the guys in charge of the matrix now, I want to say it's mentioned in Target: Matrix, as well as their current day jobs.

Perhaps. Or perhaps Matrix Marshals are a separate agency like the Federal Air Marshal Service.

QUOTE
The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is still going strong and now has BTLs to deal with as well.

The Drug Enforcement Administration was sold to Lone Star decades ago, and became DED. There is a Drug Enforcement Agency mentioned in Runner Havens.

QUOTE
As you've already mentioned the FBI is also there and I'm sure that I've seen mentions of the Secret Service in one place or another but I'll let someone else drag out an actual reference for it.

They're all over the books dealing with or that even refer to the 2057 election.

QUOTE
the Department of Homeland security into Shadowrun's back-history,

Well, there was a pretty big goddamn act of terrorism between SR3 and SR4.

QUOTE
For intelligence agencies I was working on collecting together what had been mentioned in the sourcebooks so far


There's a page on the Sixth World Wiki for intelligence agencies.


QUOTE (Caine Hazen @ Jun 10 2008, 08:45 PM) *
What, no love for the CAS Texas Rangers?

Fuck Texas.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Jun 10 2008, 09:46 AM) *
Ex-Seraphim would make for a most excellent runner backstory.

...indeed it does as my character Night Angel proves. Formerly an H5 operative (Human Intelligence) who ran the gamut of Seraphim missions though specialised in C8 & C9 assignments.

Formerly had the "Kiss of Death" (Chem Gland) prior to the crash. Now has False Front (still has some "friends in high places") and is more an infiltration specialist for hire. She is the only character I actually carried over from 3rd to 4th ed with the original backstory.

..and Lucien, you're still morte, and I'm not!

--night angel


...yeah she's picked up a few odd "quirks" over the last ten years.
Iota
So there are still a bunch of agencies...well...I guess it could be stated that their behavior is still quite the same as nowadays, meaning: the FBI does whatever it wants, CIA feeling like god, ATT&F believing themselves to be cooler than the rest and so on...

Question: would the FBI operate outside the UCAS as long as they feel it`s their case/something personal, or would they call the CIA in?
Shiloh
QUOTE (Faelan @ Jun 11 2008, 02:29 AM) *
...I would bet money at least one of those suburbans is packing stingers on top of that...


And you'd win your bet. They put Stingers with the highpoint obs/sniper teams too.

Mortars are shockingly inaccurate and you'd need some pretty special ammo (think EFP bomblets) to breach an Executive Protection limo's armour. Most people after the pres aren't after killing scores of bystanders, historically.

A 90 degree attack vector involves the cruise missile getting high up: it will be shot down before starting its final approach.
Faelan
A nuclear option or a full military grade option smile.gif well I give up say hello to a World War. Fortunately no government has been insane enough to fund such an attempt... yet.
CanRay
Oooooooooooooooooooooo, Mounted Matrix Marshals!

*Begins writing notes*

And I thought the "Phone Police" in Shadowrun were bad enough news!
Wesley Street
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Jun 10 2008, 06:21 PM) *
The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is still going strong and now has BTLs to deal with as well.


According to the Lone Star sourcebook, the DEA was purchased by Lone Star in 2032 and was re-tasked as the Division of Drug and Chip Enforcement.

Many United States cabinet level departments have some kind of law-enforcement or intelligence gathering agency under it. For example, the Department of Interior's US Park Rangers. Some are Yogi Bear types who hand out tourist info, some are equipped like beat cops who patrol the Mall in D.C., some are geared up in SWAT kit to take down hillbilly meth labs in the backwoods.
Shiloh
National Reconnaissance Office.

They run satellites. And SigInt, and have very deep and very black pockets. Pretty good bet they'll have some hard bastards in black VTOLs.
Wesley Street
NRO just handles satellites (Freedom's Sentinel in Space!). Black bird flights along with their corresponding SIGINT would be primarily handled by the Air Force under NSA direction. But no doubt there's a lot of overlapping as SIGINT is conducted by pretty much every intelligence agency to some capacity. SIGINT has also been a hot-button topic in the government as more funds are pumped into satellites and electronic recon and less into eyes-on-the-ground HUMINT.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (martindv @ Jun 11 2008, 06:33 AM) *
Well, there was a pretty big goddamn act of terrorism between SR3 and SR4.

Really? Wow, I never noticed. sarcastic.gif

What I meant was that it happened after the Shadowrun timeline diverged so you've had X amount of years worth of sourcebooks that never mentioned it and then *poof* it appears. I suppose you can argue that what with Fourth Edition it allows you to have a bit of leeway and a clean start, but it's just one of those personal things that I'm not all that fond of. But that's just me.

QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Jun 11 2008, 03:02 PM) *
According to the Lone Star sourcebook, the DEA was purchased by Lone Star in 2032 and was re-tasked as the Division of Drug and Chip Enforcement.

Looks like either someone missed the Lone Star reference or the UCAS decided to restart it up again. Which would make a twisted kind of sense considering how governments often act, "Hey we can make some major cash selling off the DEA... *Six months later* Crap you know that was actually kinda useful, lets start another one!" and it ends up costing them more than what they got paid for the original. smile.gif
Wesley Street
As much as I despise Marty McTrollFlameTroll's attitude I have to admit that using Crash 2.0 as the Shadowrun 9/11 makes a hell of a lot of sense (not that THAT hasn't been heavily alluded to already in the BBB and Runner Havens). The Shadowrun timeline's DHS may be a new relatively Department and may have started up under the Colloton administration.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 11 2008, 06:47 AM) *
And you'd win your bet. They put Stingers with the highpoint obs/sniper teams too.

Mortars are shockingly inaccurate and you'd need some pretty special ammo (think EFP bomblets) to breach an Executive Protection limo's armour. Most people after the pres aren't after killing scores of bystanders, historically.

A 90 degree attack vector involves the cruise missile getting high up: it will be shot down before starting its final approach.


Mortars wouldn't be used against the limo, which is a decidedly harder target than most buildings, but against the facility where the President is appearing. The indirect high-explosive option in far more useful against structures than it is against limos.

The ability to shoot down a cruise missile can be limited by high speeds and small radar cross section.

But, really, other than people who are mentally ill, the only individuals who actually have a motive to kill a President are Vice Presidents. The nature and inertia of the political system means one person's death is unlikely to result in any significant policy changes.


Don't forget the Bureau of Paranormal Research and Defense.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jun 11 2008, 05:41 PM) *
Mortars wouldn't be used against the limo, which is a decidedly harder target than most buildings, but against the facility where the President is appearing. The indirect high-explosive option in far more useful against structures than it is against limos.

Best target I can think of is when he's on-board Marine One either going to or coming back from somewhere like camp David from the White House and just landed or just before they take off. Ties the President to having to be in a pre-known location and his limites personal movement. Plus if you get lucky you could also touch off anything explosive or highly flammable like aviation fuel that's on-board as well. That or one of those open air signing ceremonies. Set up three teams about a mile or two out and when you see on the live television broadcast that the targets are in place just bombard the target area with a mix of high explosive and anti-personnel mortar shells for sixty-ninety seconds before making an escape and in the carnage hope you get him. Even if you don't whoever you have killed and how close you came to killing the primary target, the just look how close they came factor, should be good enough publicity-wise in any circumstance.
Earlydawn
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Jun 11 2008, 01:24 PM) *
Best target I can think of is when he's on-board Marine One either going to or coming back from somewhere like camp David from the White House and just landed or just before they take off. Ties the President to having to be in a pre-known location and his limites personal movement. Plus if you get lucky you could also touch off anything explosive or highly flammable like aviation fuel that's on-board as well. That or one of those open air signing ceremonies. Set up three teams about a mile or two out and when you see on the live television broadcast that the targets are in place just bombard the target area with a mix of high explosive and anti-personnel mortar shells for sixty-ninety seconds before making an escape and in the carnage hope you get him. Even if you don't whoever you have killed and how close you came to killing the primary target, the just look how close they came factor, should be good enough publicity-wise in any circumstance.
Speaking of Matrix enforcement groups..
Fortune
Hello there Mr. Homeland Security. wavey.gif
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Jun 11 2008, 04:47 AM) *
And you'd win your bet. They put Stingers with the highpoint obs/sniper teams too.

Mortars are shockingly inaccurate and you'd need some pretty special ammo (think EFP bomblets) to breach an Executive Protection limo's armour. Most people after the pres aren't after killing scores of bystanders, historically.

A 90 degree attack vector involves the cruise missile getting high up: it will be shot down before starting its final approach.

Correction the missiles I am referring too, are at 90,000 feet at 4 mach, launched from a platform at 250 nm, in current US Military airframes and AAM's nothing can touch it. Only near the target does it go into a 85 degree dive angle attack and slows down to ~3 mach, since most of them are Nuclear Armed an 350 kt airburst can ruin the motorcade's day. Besides there can always be more than one launched too.

Now if you have a 3D Fire Direction Radar available you "may" be able to get a firing solution and intercept it on its 85 degree dive attack but that may also trigger a 350 kt nuclear airburst. Stingers will not even get close to stopping it. Now a SM-6 Standard ERAM could but those are not everywhere.

As for the use of nuclear weapon does not insure Nuclear War, first you have to figure out who used it against you first. One does not want to go off half cocked. grinbig.gif

Do not forget the OSS as a 3 letter government agency of long ago.

WMS
Faelan
Well based on the stats you are giving I would assume you are talking about the AS 6 Kingfisher. Since it is launched from an air platform in the bomber category, think TU 16 or similar, my statement of which major government wants to start WWIII holds true. Seeing as how we would be looking at I believe three, maybe four governments who might have the capability to deliver, much less have the weapon system in question, I would not be too worried about a half cocked response.
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