OK, so I admit - I think shooting with a pair of pistols is tre' cool. Love all those old westerns and Chow Yun Fat movies - just think it's a fun way to fight.

So I noticed that the rules for doing so in SR are pretty strict. Smartlinks don't work, you take a hefty target number penalty, the recoil stacks for each gun, and I am not sure, but don't you have to split up your skill dice between the two shots?

I guess my question is this: have you ever seen somebody fighting this way in any games that you run? Is it really worth doing? Or does the penalties you take make it prohibitive?

If it's yes on the latter, then I am thinking about making a house rule in my games. I am thinking of having the Smartgun Link bonus actually work. Or perhaps they work only partially, like perhaps the +2 bonus is split in half, a +1 for each gun.

This is not entirely without precedence. I remember a character in an old Shadowrun novel who used a pair of Savalette Guardians, and his Smartgun Link worked just fine with both of them. I remember that he had a PAIR of crosshairs superimposed on his vision, instead of the one crosshair normally seen. His "left hand" crosshair was a different color than his right hand one - that's how he told them apart. I know the novels aren't "canon" or anything, but still it makes sense to me *shrug*

I know that the rulebook version is probably more realistic. In the real life, it is rarely usefull to use 2 pistols. But then again, this ain't real life is it

well, where to begin... first, smartlinks give a -2, not a +2 modifier. second, I have seen people play it ambidexteriously, and it is indeed powerful, thirdly, you do NOT want to make it any easier, and fourthly, it really is difficult to do.

ok, start with the last one. I want you to try having 2 friends throw something to you at the same time, and try to catch them both, one with each hand. that's hard. multiply that by 10, and you've got the dificulty of shooting with both pistols.

secondly, in shadowrun's system, with a good skill, the first shot can be an instant kill. so you're getting someone who can kill 4 people on one initiative pass. that's powerful. if you make that easier by giving them smartlink bonuses, it's even more difficult

also, keeping track of two targetting reticles is quite hard.

the only thing I would agree with is something that maybe made it a bit easier to unload with 2 pistols at one target, for example, a car coming straight at you, you should have a better shot of damaging it by just pointing and firing two guns than by only firing one, but that's just me.

Personally, I think the rules are just fine as they are.

actually, according to the SR FAQ, novels can be considered canon with some "rule stretching." this may be a case-in-point of rule stretching.

i like the idea, though. and i agree that it shouldn't be easy. what about creating a new skill called "ambidextrous" or something that the player has to dump points into. maybe drop the smartlink ability and use the skill to add modifiers? and perhaps throw in some penalties and caps. we don't want him dual wielding shotguns and SMGs the way he would pistols, though =). so maybe add some constraints for that...or make it only apply to pistols.

Cannon Companion already has rules for ambidexterity and off-hand skills.

pistols/savlet 5/7 plus enhanced articulation, and reflex recorder. now you're throwing 9 dice at TN 2 with a starting character. average 8 successes, with an 11M base weapon (ex explosive ammo) with their 5 balisitc, you're talking about needing 6 successes against TN 6 to bring the damage down to serious. most corp guards don't have a body of 6, much less are able to get 6 successes. throw in some combat pool, and it gets even worse.

but then, what do I know?

yes, the guards could be wearing more armor, but the player could have a custom made 10M base gun that uses burst fire, also.

Phys-ad with Pistols 6 (12)
2 Ares Predators with GV1.
Ambidexterity.

All 4 shots are against a TN of 4. Meaning that, on average, without combat pool, you get 6 successes with a 9M wound, 4 times per initiative pass.
Exactly how much easier should it get?

and no, you don't have to split your dice between your guns

You split dice...?

Maybe in past systems, damn bloody memory, but not the current one AFAIK.

TN mods come from smartlink bonuses which he wants to aply to both weapons when dual wielding.
then again, there's always aptitude(pistols).
and now someone else will point out the "switching targets" modifier on the second shot that I forgot, so I'll beat them to the punch.
on the second target with each gun there will be a +2 modifier for switching targets, and that will make it a bit more difficult.

Possibly. But if you're trying to argue a point with examples that aren't very realistic, you can expect that. :/

The multiple gun penalty could be defined as two parts: multiple targets and dual weaponry. The multiple targets would be nullified any time you are shooting both at one target and the dual weaponry would be countered by the off-hand weapon concept.

Make the multiple targets negate any sights or smartlinks, but let them apply when you are targetting two spots in the same direction.

Open to suggestions about how to divvy up the penalty to make this a somewhat balanced compromize.

You haven't stated your opinion on the matter at all.
Do you feel that a two pistol shooter gets hosed? You can't just tell me I'm dumb without even offering an opinion.

That's what I had thought. Even with all that stuff, the gigantic target numbers will probably make the later shots fairly weak in the success department. Although I was mistaken on the whole splitting dice thing. May have to rethink.

First let me just add that I like the idea of shooting two guns at the same time so I'll be biased in favor of people trying to do it.

Personally I would allow anyone with two Induction Pads and two Processors to get the full bonus to both guns. Some people will say that this would make gunbunnies (street sam or pistol adepts alike) too powerful (potentially killing four people every action pass, etc) but remember that the multiple target penalty is +2 for each additional target (regardless of which gun your shooting them with) so you might have a target number of 2 for that first hopeless sec-guard, assuming he doesn't take cover and there is good visibility, but it's TN 4 for the second one, TN 6 for the third and TN 8 for the fourth, not so easy anymore.

Now if you're shooting at just one target you do get to shoot four times at TN 2 but if your strreet sam with skill 7(9) needs to shoot him four times then the target is probably hardened or something and you'd be better off picking up an SMG or an assault shotgun with a lot of recoil compensation and letting off a few bursts, or possinly just running for dear life.

people still use it, even though it is a bad choice using the current rules. they do it because they think it's cool, whatever the modifiers.

dont forget a +2 for aditional targets. it does stack up.

so if you shoot at 4 people it goes 4,6,8,10.

if you power game make it easier, not just for pc's but npc's.

now dual gyromounts on a troll with 2 smgs....

ack i'll shutup now

It's my house rule that smartlinks and laser sights apply when both guns are firing at one target only.

So if shooting on a clear day at a single stationary target within 5 meters. Your 4 shots are Tn's 2 (with smart link and str6).

However, 4 diferent targets same conditions.
First Tn 4
Second 6
Third 8
Fourth 10

Of cause in real gme terms you got to factor in lightning, movement (both target and firer) amoung other things. So i don't find this at all unbalancing. But as i said, It's my house rule. Along with -2 power for most heavy pistols (so average damage code is 7M).

I houseruled that the usual +2/+4 modifier for two guns is doubled when shooting at two different targets. If the shooter switch target(s) on his second simple action he gets another +2, as usual. But I also allow all aim-enhancement gear to be taken into account. This makes shooting both guns at the same target, in both actions, quite manageable with a SL.

You would need 2 smartlinks for two guns, seeing as the induction pad in the palm would not work in the off hand (where there is no pad)

@JAG: Yes, I agree with you, but if you're using the piecemeal SGL rules, I'd rule that you only need two Processors and two Induction Pads the other components (the Display and the Simsense thingy-don't remember what it's called...) should work just fine.

Also I'd like to note that as Raiko pointed out there are other ways to kill nearly everything in sight, a smartlinked Ares Alpha with 10 points of RC lets you shoot three targets with a damage code of 11S and it even makes the targets' dodge rolls more difficult (TN 5, not TN4).

To me it's more a matter of style than power, some characters should carry that Ares Alpha, others make more sense with a Predator in each hand.

Don't want to nitpick or unbalance your game, and just want people to use twin pistols cause it is cool?

Allow a one point edge that characters can take called, Two Pistol guy, or Chow yun Fat wannabe, or something to that effect.

The edge would allow a character to fire two pistols without penalty at the same target, +3 power +one level of staging, like a burst for an SMG. This is no more unbalancing than an SMG, it lets you look cool. Only allowed with pistols. No two handing smgs or shotguns.

What do you guys think about the strength and recoil rule.
Would a strength of 6 only soak up one point of recoil, or one per pistol/arm?

Here's a fun question... how many people would allow vismag for two-gunning at different targets? How about if the targets were at different ranges? I'm just trying to imagine the walleye vision that could occur there... wow...

My GM has a set of dual pistol house rules that seem to be working fine for us. We're not hardcore though, and a lot of the stuff you guys are talking about must be coming from sources other than the plain old SR3 core book (which is all we use).

Smartlinks work fine. Just like someone said earlier, you get two different color crosshairs.

Laser sights also work fine. (Why the hell not?)

There is no increase in target number simply for holding two pistols. (I beleive the official rule is +2)

You may fire two shots per pistol, but only at a maximum of two targets. (Targeting three or four people in one round in semi auto would just require too much thinking time.)

Four shots of course require two simple actions.

Recoil rules are standard.

This has been a lot of fun, and it's made for some really interesting fights. There has been an increase in "theatrics" since these rules were clarified. (Running and jumping with two pistols blazing...)

-Z

Let's see, two to four shots a-blazin' at a TN of 4 (Ambidexterity 4), or one or two well placed shots at a TN of 2 (Smartlink-2).

Yes, I see how having a minor consequence that puts you up to the oh-so-devestating base TN of everything else in the game in exchange for doubling the amount of lead you can spew out in less than a second or two is a "bad choice" and wholly unfair.

I'm at work, so my reply will be kinda brief.

You need to specify in what scenario you're using the two-handgun scenario -- entirely different numbers apply to entirely different scenarios.

Will be back later.

-Siege

Hence the ambidexterity and/or two weapon skill!

The problem is: I think it's physically impossible to legitimately split your visual focus with equal clarity between two disparate targets.

A suggested houserule on my part: split your handgun dice between the two targets -- this reflects how much relative attention you pay to either target. Even split, you try to focus on both. Otherwise you lean one way or the other.

-Siege

I like that rule, but there's got to be some pay off for the extra karma spent on ambidexterity, etc.

OK, how does this sound.
The base rules apply, ie you get minus 2 for each weapon, which is made up by ambidexterity.
If you're targeting a single opponent, you get SGL bonuses for each one. If you're targetting different targets, on gets the SGL bonus and the other doesn't (whichever one you're actually paying the most attention to).
All other modifiers apply, different targets, recoild, etc.

so, if you wanna swing down by your knees from the stair rail and unload both pistols on one guy, you're gonna kill the crap out of him. If you're dealing with multiple opponents, you are essentially focusing on one target and throwing lead at a second one, which also seems realistic.

I challenge any of you who have handguns or bb guns or whatever, to have a friend randomly place two tin cans at least 5 meters away from you and at least 3 meters away from eachother, while you're blindfolded. Have the friend remove the blind fold and see how long it takes you to be able to hit both cans by shooting at the same time.

I've been playing with a 2-pistol style character for some time, the idea shamelessly stolen from Woo's "The Killer". Here are some of my thoughts.

I don't see a problem with smartgun links working for both guns, honestly... as long as the person has two smartgun links installed (i.e., separate smarty processors running and everything -- double the essence loss and double the cost is a fairish tradeoff, to me...) However, I DO think that the +2 for two-gun shooting should still apply -- thus a net TN of 4 anyways. Remember that a TN of 4 is a lot harder than a TN of 2 (esp since you're still adding in movement and vision modifiers). It's a LOT more effective to make two shots from the same gun than to take 4 shots from two guns.

Where do you get the idea that because you are carrying 2 pistols you can fire 4 rounds? It is a simple action to fire a single shot. You get two simple action regardless of the number of guns you are holding.

Example:

Pulse is carrying 2 fully automatic SMG's. Both are set to fire in full auto. He can only fire 1 in full auto mode. THe other cannot be fired. Or he can fire a burst from each. Or 2 bursts from 1.


Did I miss something or are you guys talking about a houserule?