I'd allow "four" simple actions in this case.

Yeah, but the problem is that (speaking from personal experience) firing two pistols simultaneously at two different targets is hard. It's not as easy(!) as in the garage scene in The Usual Suspects or goofing around playing Virtua Cop, etc. (which is also sickeningly biased because of the artificially short range) and is a sufficient reason IMO why SL didn't apply when you fired two guns simultaneously it in SR2 (and I can't recall SR3, but if they took it out they made an egrigious mistake), and you still got the +2 TN.

Now, even if you are ambidexterous (which is in my world not that common, but I'm a bastard like that) and you have two independent smarlinks with two "smart" guns, the reality is that you're going to have trouble shooting two guns at once unless the two targets are standing right next to each other, at the exact same range, and not moving. I'd still demand the +2 TN for each shot, and while I'm at it I think a +2 recoil TN for the second shots and bump up the moving target TN by 1, all for each.

The only time I used dual pistols was dual ruger superwarhawks.

each is 10m, bu they are ss, so its basically like firing one.

the gm however thought it was cool. that even with the modifyers, and no enhansed skill.smartlinks, and a skill of 5. i was defending the whole team on the roof top while we waited for the rigger to come pick us up.

All in all, it is fun, it is about style, and just use CC ambidexterity rules.

some people like to say, "how many people are really ambidex-8!" "And how many of those do you think just happen to become shadowrunners."


to that i say "Shut up, that has no logical basis in a fictional world because it's not reality, its all in your head to manipulate as you like because nothings set in stone, there are no definites, there are no limits.......... and you! always nay saying! evrything i create! go sit in your tower! I been sittin around gettin sick of yer attitude! c@#8 @$$, you ^$^*&^#............"




sorry Tenatios d reffrence seemed neccesary at the end there..............

No I don't belive I am missing anything. No where in the rules that I can think of does it say you can fire two rounds with a simple action. If that were the case then you could fire 4 rounds with one pistol. Which you can't.

Neither in SR3 pg112 or CC page 94 does it say anything about gaining additional attacks. It just says that if you fire two weapons together there are penalties. A simple action isn't just pulling the trigger, it is also aiming, breathing and all the other stuff you have to do to have a hope in hell of hitting a target.

So, you cannot fire 4 rounds in a phase just because you are using two pistols. The benefit of the extra pistol is more ammo and a second weapon incase you lose the first one. Not "extra actions".

There's no need for ambidexterity and there wouldn't be any question of whether or not SGL or laser sights work if you were only shooting one at a time.

<edit>After re-reading the section in SR3, I must say that while it doesn't say you get a shot from each with each simple action, everything the book DOES say would be stupid and pointless if you were only shooting one at a time.

After reading the section in CC. I find that it says "simultaneously" several times. That means "at the same time".

Not really.

I am not saying you can't shoot at the same time. I am just saying you don't all of a sudden gain extra actions because you are weilding two weapons.

With this logic I could fire 2 ares alphas and send 20 rounds down range. I think if thats what they intended, it would be spelled out in the rules, or in an example.

You also have to be able to hold both guns in one hand easily. This means nothing above SMGs, as far as I'm concerned.

No, a Troll cannot take anything higher than an SMG either. They have to get things Troll-sized, so it would turn out the same either way.

so if you get it roll modified does the concelability go down as well?

NO.

It changes grip, and trigger guard.


although i am not against you, just thought i'd point that out.

I would not let a player troll dual weil.......assaultcannons.......

Either would I.

But I just don't think the intended action of the rules is to allow players to get "free" simple actions. That opens up a can of worms (like dual wielding HMG's) and isn't consistent with the rest of the rules.

@ Tanka,

define easy?

@ Shadow

Not having to use both hands in real life. (Shotgun and up, to be accurate)

Although a troll might be able to argue his away around that and extend it to assualt rifles.

Which was the point I was making above. Not that I would allow it, just that the way it was stated above was to uncertain. Though the book does make it clear SMG's only. I still don't belive that you should be able to get 4 simple actions for using them though. And so far, no one has proved otherwise.

Here's what you're missing, Shadow.

Hey guys...I have a question...

Why not just use the same rule for 2 pistols as for 2 weapons?

Give them a another half skill. If you have pistols of 6, you get another 3 for a total of 9. This, like 2 blades must be at the same oppenent, then apply the standard attacking again +2 to get one opponent at full with 9 Die, then again a 9 Die at a +2TN regardless of changing the target...

Mind you I wouldn't allow changing modes of fire while dualweilding(unless you have a smartlink), nor would changing clips be anything less than a full round(3 seconds at least...)

Hey, I wanna sling two M-60's, one under each arm and crank!

Add that to the list of needed smileys -- the rambo smiley with a bandanna!

-Siege

Disclaimer: At no point should any part of this post be taken seriously. Except, perhaps, the need for a rambo smiley.

I should add that even playing video games I usually shoot alternating between hands (as do Woo characters. I can only think of two movies where a character ever fired two guns simultaneously: TUS and Bad Boys II). I would also add that what's being suggested is simultaneous fire in adverse conditions including, but not limited to poor to no lighting, while the PC and/or NPCs are moving, possibly while said PC is wounded, in combat circumstances, and while ducking said NPC's (or his friend's) gunfire.

IOW, a minimum TN of 6-8 each (and after the SL) is probably to be expected.

Hrrmm, by basic calculation of the penalties and final TN for firing two pistols at short range and attempting to stay within canon.


The initial +2/+2 for dual wielding, let's assume shooting at the same target for a final TN 6/6.
You get to shoot again of course, just for the sake of argument you either miss or the target makes his/her body checks... +1/+1 for the recoil on the second shot but oh wait, any uncompensated recoil applied to one gun is also applied to the other so it becomes +2/+2 for a final TN 8/8. Hopefully your target already used up his Combat Pool.

For multiple targets, the TN goes up +2 for each target beyond the first, just like when you switch up targets in BF of FA modes.... Assuming you aim and shoot at four different people the mods for this are +0/+2/+4/+6, giving TNs 6/8/12/14, assuming you can't compensate for the recoil.

Factoring other mods these TNs could easily escape even the most skilled gun-fu adept.

So, it looks like a pretty unlikely scenario for massive killing unless you've got an adept with improved combat ability and some recoil mods/high strength. Does this shed any light or should I go back to the drawing board?

Basiclly this argument could go on forever.

would firing both pistols at same time be one simple action? I would say so. takes the same amount of time as pulling the trigger of one.

ANYWAY:
now if you were to say, fire both guns at once (single action) then do it again. (single action) theres your actions. four shots fired, two simple actions. Hard to do. looks cool.

now, fire one gun at one guy (simple action) use other to fire at other guy (simple action) You fire one at a time, two bullets two actions. not as hard to do, still looks cool,

while firing a burst is also a single action thus dual smgs, you could fire 4 bursts. high tn's obsurdly so.
there is the argument.

Its style, over substance. is it to powerfull? no because its so hard! if you use the rules given to you.

Or look at me i can shoot two guns, and look at me i can hit with two guns but might as well be using one!

Its just theatrics, its not overpowered if you use the rules given to you. Or use it intelligently.

that als the upside of dual wielding, it seems like your getting more actions, (your not, compare to SMG or assault rifle) the punishment for a character using dual pistols (or smg's for that matter) is very high compared to using a single smg, pistol, A/R.

look I have fired two pistols at once. Both at same time is hard, if not impossible to hit two seperate targets at same time. both at same taget is hard, but not to bad if its close.
the most acurate way is to fire one than the other quick aiming eachtime (Thats how i shoot, i dont use the sights, i just position my arm and basically point my arm and hand at the target) so its
look at target/fire gun one
lookat target/fire gun two
I got really good at this in the last few years.
Only time i use sights is when im firing rifles at long distance.

although i have better acuaracy when i just free aim than when i sight.
I am especially good at quickdraw and fire hit target almost every time........ enough about me, I'm not trying to brag, just point out how I would and do do it.

did I say anything helpfull?

not really

hehehe o well. but anyway all im saying is let em do it use the rules it aint that hard. if the rules dont cover it go over it with your gm and make house rules.

now wheres ma damn beer?

I understand that, I was looking for something more specific. "At the same time" does not translate to free in my mind. However someone pointed out later on where they do say you get an extra attack. So it has been pointed out already.