Post questions regarding unclear effects from Unwired here, to keep it all in one place. Hopefully a dev will drop in soon to give us some clarifications. I will be posting additional questions of my own as they arise.

To begin, the Swap echo - does it's effects apply to the total threading penalty, or to each threaded form separately?

To Total, otherwise it would be too powerful, IMHO

I had a couple of questions based on my initial reading, and I imagine other people will have questions soon too, so I thought I might as well start the party with the traditional Questions thread that always appears.

Two things immediately interested me and I quickly dug them out - what constitutes a node and how do agents / IC move around.

Dealing with the first one:

In the core book, it is said that nodes can represent networks. I've made extensive use of this principle in handling an office full of terminals, a pack of patrolling drones, etc as a single node. This does not appear to be possible anymore under the definitions given on page 55. The implication now is that each physical device is a node of some kind. Is this correct and the "network as a node" idea is gone? That seems like a big step back to me as it gets away from the distributed, location-independent model that fits with the way real world computing seems to be heading.

Dealing with the second one:



That an agent can "access" multiple nodes is a little ambiguous. I am taking the above to mean the following scenarios are true. Is this correct?

An agent is loaded onto Node A and can then travel, just like a hacker's persona that is running on a commlink, from Node A, to Node B to Node C, whilst all the time still running (with consequent affect on Response, etc) on Node A. So an agent can be visible in Node C, engage in cybercombat there, etc, but is running on Node A.

If the above is true for agents, then is there any reason why IC (which I understand to be a form of agent) cannot do the same - running from one Node but travelling through the system without impacting on the response of the nodes that it visits?

I have to load programs before I use them, this I understand. However, are they loaded on my home node, or technically on my persona. If someone wants to crash my program, can they execute it directly against my persona or would they have to head back to my home node? Finally, if I want to "front-load" my arsenal on the node I'm working on, what kind of hacking do I have to do beforehand?

Persona don't provide processing power to programs, they're merely the interface to the operating system of a device (p. 51, Unwired). However, you can load programs into any node for which you'd have the appropriate access. Obviously, your home node is perhaps the easiest option here. However, I could see a second 'link being used, slaved to your main 'link, that runs extra programs so that the response of your main 'link isn't negatively impacted.

To crash a program (or an OS, for that matter) you've got to be able to access the node on which that program is being run. This probably requires hacking it in some way, though if you have physical access to the controls of the node or if you've socially engineering your way into controlling it, you may not have to. Once you've accessed a node, a Matrix Perception test can tell you what programs it's running and then a Crash Program/OS action could be performed.

To front-load an arsenal of programs onto a target node, you'd need an account with access rights to run programs on the node, which may not be user level access in all situations. Be aware that, if you're not loading the programs onto a nexus, then the target's matrix attributes might be degraded which could clue people into your impending attack. Also, I personally don't allow willy-nilly copying of programs in my game and if the hacker hasn't already cracked the program he/she wants to off-load, they won't have access to that program if they stop subscribing to the node onto which they off loaded it. Granted, cracking the software is trivial, and it's possible that reading past page 65 (my current progress) in Unwired will convince me otherwise.

Neat idea. Just implant yourself a powerful link, slave it to your main link, and turn wireless off on that link (linking it to the main link via datacable, or having the main link implanted too). Actually, (ab)using commlink customisation, you could just use an implant link for one primary program which it's optimised for (for one bonus dice), and the rest of the space for a beefed-up mook. okay, burns some 1 essence for 5 links catering to a special program, but also gives you a bunch of mooks (which you can outfit to aid you in combat, for instance) and lots of free space to run other stuff on your main link, if you want to.

I recommend your main link having simsense aceleration, an optimisatkion for your favourite program, and custom interface. also, a bulvark link you route your traffic through and keep thoroughly iced also makes a lot of sense.

Yes, that's a bit massive, especially since you can pimp your programs a bit for even more dice now. Well, looks like the TM finally sees some balancingm though i'm sire paragorns and sprite pacts will give them more ways to insane power too.

I believe you can find the answer to this question under Abstract Matrix Runs, p. 79, Unwired.

Wait, I don;t have unwired yet, so this may be total speculation, but agents can still log into a new mode and spawn copies of themselves?

STILL?!?!

Okay it appears there is a new hoop to jump through (I have to have a replicate autosoft and hack the agent), but wtf?!?! I thought they were going to fix agent smith.

The Unwired solution to Agent Smith is as follows: Each agent has an Access ID embedded in it's code. Every copy of that agent has the exact same Access ID. Only one copy of each Access ID is allowed on a given Node. So if one copy of an Agent is already on a Node, a second copy (with the same Access ID) cannot load onto the Node. This even prevents the copy of the Agent from Hacking it's way onto the Node.

As for changing an Agent's Access ID, it's a programming test and the interval is long (a week, I think).

Can I get some more clarification

A) Can they just spoof their access idea?

B) Whats all that stuff about replication and spawning above then?
\

Even better: post questions to the thread with the same name that has already been started: Here.

And while we're at it, can we get a mod to merge or delete this thread?

-Frank

Merging the threads would be apreciated. But for the record, I would like to point out I started this thread nearly 12 hours before Knasser opened his.

Must use the same configuration interface as Open Office... Eight days later: "Oh, there's the setting."



Hmmm. It's not quite an answer. That's a way of abstracting a bunch of nodes when you don't want to have to detail a Matrix run. What I'm on about is that in the core SR4 book it says that a node may represent a network of computers. I've used that to literally mean that an office full of terminals together comprise and act as a single node. Clustering sort of does this, but still makes each component an individual node as well. One of the things I thought was very prescient in the core SR4 rules was the implication that physical location and hardware was now way down in the basement of the Matrix conceptual model and that a node was a much more virtual entity. Now we seem to have back-slid to a node being a specific piece of hardware.

A large Node has to be several devices linked together, otherwise you can only ever have 6 people log onto a major matrix site, that would make no sense.

Well I suppose I should go download it. Hmm.

nexi anyone?

Actually option that didn't make the cut, and some people may find more flexible, is to make the interval from patching software Tests equal to the rating of program being patched in days, rather than a default 1 week.

I thought the subtext of the side (middle?) bar was that a node is whatever size you want it to be. If you want a node that's an office full of terminals, knock yourself out. I mean, SR4 calls PANs a single node, so it makes sense to apply that logic to other sets of devices, too.

As requested, the posts have been merged. This sorts the two threads chronologically.

This is covered by Nexi. They're specialized nodes that have a process limit (a term introduced in Unwired) greater than their matrix attributes. This limit determines the rate of response degredation, so nexus's node will degrade far slower than a commlink's, for example. In the book, they indicate that nexi are used for a variety of things, e.g., public libraries, corporate networks, etc. Essentially, commlinks : laptops :: nexi : servers.

Well, as soon as you have 2 commlinks then you have a Nexi.

A room full of workstations would not be a Node, it would be a Nexi, or else you could only work, and haltingly, on 6 of them at a time.

I'm sorry, but in my head it pretty much invalidates means the word "Nexi" replaces "Node" in all the circumstances I would have used "Node" previously.

Now Node is not something big, its simply any point from where you can run a set of programs on a single processor.

And Node is not a small word. Node is something important in the network, its where things are gathering and connecting, and now its the smallest network unit there is.

Yea, I'm just being obnoxious, but it sounds weird, dunnit?

All devices in the room can be slaved to one central device. The network node of the central device is set up with controlling functions for the slaved devices. This device is the only relevant network node, unless the hacker wants to spoof a specific device (requiring matrix perception on the central device to get the controlling ID).

A nexus isn't a group of nodes, though. It's a specific piece of hardware, like a commlink, that can create a node. However, unlike a commlink, it has a process limit which is greater than it's System attribute. Only when there are enough programs running on the node of the nexus equal to it's process limit (minimum 10, maximum 50) does its response degrade. Does that help you understand it better?

while not having read the pdf, so i dont know its description of a nexi. i would say that similar to how supercomputers today are built using massive numbers of "desktop" computers, a nexi can be a cluster of "desktop" hardware.

Not exactly. A nexus is one piece of hardware, most like a mainframe than a supercomputer. There are rules for clusters, too, but they're primarily to abstract a group of nodes produced by devices like your kitchen appliances -- specifically referred to in Unwired as Peripheral Nodes -- as a single node for convenience and to limit the number of subscriptions you need in order to make dinner, for example.

Ok do I haven't read Unwired yet, but are there now rules that allow for people get around the crazy low subscription limit and play 8 on 8 games of miracle shooter or host a chat room with more than 12 people in it?

Refer to the previous look at the nexus.

I only had the opportunity to look into my Unwired pdf for some minutes: where can I find the prices for cracked patches to ensure the SOTA of my programs?

SYL

P109 & P110 is probably a good place to start.

Cheers
CC

Pg 94 has the stuff on finding pirate networks to download programs and patches cheap.

Question re. unrestricted agents: I see a ref to cost/availability modifiers on p100 and then again on p202. In the sidebar on p101, it mentions that legally bought agents are restricted from making hacking tests. Is this the only limitation that is removed in unrestricted agents? I can't see any other refs. to "Unrestricted Agents." Also, p202 says

The page refs are weird: 62 is TI, 71 is the ice list, and reality amps are indeed 188. Where do I file a bug report?

Other than that, I'm lovin it!

Skillsofts can be emulated so they become Complex Forms compatible with Biowire.

Q: Can skillsoft CF's be improved with Karma?
Q: Can skillsoft CF's be learned from a Tutor Sprite? [as in the character doesnt have a skillsoft chip to emulate]

And some on B/R:
Q: If I have a Sleep Regulator and I'm working on something with an interval of a week does it improve the interval?
Q: Does a "Linked" Tutor sprite patching software get a better interval?

No. As I wrote in the other thread, the CF is a memorized copy of the skillsoft, emulated into a format that Biowires can process. It cannot be upgraded.


Personally, I would also say "No" here because that was not way it was intended. The limiting factor for the TM should be to acquire the skillsoft somehow. The in-game explanation (if you need any) would be that the TM cannot share its CF/ability with the TM that he can emulate it.

And before the question comes up, the TM cannot use Edge for tests even if it is a CF. It is still skillsoft.

Of course that it my (author) point of view.

Quickly: I am loving the fluff in this book (I'm to page 72 thus far).

@knasser

The closest thing to a network of computers as one node that I see, with respect to what I've read in Unwired, is the Master-Slave relationship. What you'd do is slave all your desktop computers to your router computer, which would probably be a Nexus itself. This would allow the hacker access to all the computers. This means they could hack them separately (probably, with this setup, a direct wire connection to the proper computer only) or just hack the router computer that all the slaves are connected to.

So, they'd really still all be singular nodes, however with access to the master node, you could travel through them and access them more or less as if they were a singular node.

The problem with slaving, if I'm not misunderstanding the whole thing, is that it requires a full subscription to maintain a slaving between two nodes, so slaving everything to one com would eat up the subscription limit fast, though a nexi can handle a higher subscription limit by default.

What I'm not quite sure about is whether it's allowed to have chains of slaving. i.e. if you have twelve items, slave 12 to 11, 11 to 10, etc, on up to the core system that takes up one subscription channel to slave that string of nodes. It's repeated a few places that, specifically in the Pan topology section, that the master comm can access any data in any of the subnodes, as long as their is some chain of communication.

I want to believe this sort of thing would work and is at the core of things like PANs so that you can have two gazillion little toys all linked up to your commlink and save subscriptions for tacnets and drones and such, but I'm not sure.

Also whether this chain of slaving idea would allow any kind of full VR eight on eight FPS game or whatever I'm not sure. In my mind I'd envision it something like a central node that acts as the main 'server' with subnodes to host player subscriptions, with the subnodes slaved to the master server, allowing it and it's programs to control what the players experience by sending signals to its sub-nodes, and thereby to the players.

Then again, it could just be really late and I'm totally overthinking the whole thing.

Question about the degeneration of programms.



The problem is, what is meant with all other programms?

There is a vast amount of different software types. So, what is included?

a) Common-Use
b) Agents
c) Pilots
d) IC
e) System
f) Firewall
g) Skillsoft/Knowsoft/Linguasoft
h) Datasoft/Mapsoft/Tutorsoft
i) Sensorsoft (including emotoys)
j) Autosoft

So what is included?

Greets,
Coldan

Question on Node/Persona interactivity:

When I use a program running on a Node other than the one I'm running my Persona on (Unwired p. 55), this uses up a subscription slot for my persona. Does it also count as being loaded onto my Persona for purposes of slowdown (SR4, p. 212)? If it does, why would I run a program in this way when with the same Complex Action and the same connection to the same server I could load a copy of the program into my own node directly onto my Persona and not use up an extra subscription slot?

-Frank

@Sombranox

You're right on the subscribing part. We may all be overthinking this but hey, that's what Dumpshock is for.

Reading a little further in the list and reading the example designs of systems, specifically those on p. 74-5, I'm not wholly convinced that networks are even too terribly needed in a small-office setting. After all, most workers tend to have their own computer at their fingertips (usually given to them by the company like cells are today) and it seems that the bulk of the work would be done on those and then the worker would log-on to the system to upload data to a repository or to use a computer with more horsepower to compile, run tests, or something. And with uploading data, one wouldn't even have to subscribe to the node to transfer it.

Except for the increased security of having to connect your comm directly to the computer and the idea of a nice, quiet, work environment, and the added convenience of being able to yell at Johnson in the meat, I don't see why workers are even in the office at all for most of the day.

[edit]
@Frank

It doesn't seem to me that it would be, otherwise loading up your programs on your comm then utilizing them on the target system would slow down the system which would make it downright useless.

Do I understand correctly the SOTA-rules in Unwired for cracked programs?

1) A normal hacker should not use legal programs because of the increased data trail.
2) A normal hacker should use cracked program.
3) cracked programs degenerate.
4) Every 1 or 2 month the hacker has to roll for EACH and EVERY program an patch availability test in the range of 14 to 24 (for the interesting programs)?
5) Every 1 or 2 month the hacker has to pay several thousand ¥ just to keep his program ratings (assuming an advanced hacker with all neccessary programs).
6) Patching its own software is not really an option because of the time involve.
7) Degenerating software include: common, hacker, firewall, system, malware, agent, pilot, skillsoft, knowsoft, linguasoft, navsoft, autosoft, tutorsoft, sensorsoft bought on the black market.

If that is all true: did anybody tested this system for a hacker in actual play? Because from its first reading it seems very cumbersome and slow and not very play-friendly with its increased book keeping and a dozen+ dice rolls per game month.

SYL

In the spoilers thread there are rules for getting Pirated Patches, or getting a Pirated Program registered.

Personally I think the downside of Registered programs has been greatly overstated. All you need to do is buy the programs with a throw-away SIN (Rating one or two will do), with a postal address somewhere near Vladivostok and you mitigate most of the problems.

Cheers
CC

The lone hacker is a dead architype. Cobra's solution doesn't work, because your registered software will be cut off after you commit your first computer crime in session 1, and thus become pirate ware.

So all your software is pirateware or you are dead, so the only way to keep your cracked programs SOTA is by joining a 'warez group' and collaborating on pirate patches - a rule that is entirely made of GM handwavium.

But clearly fastjack cannot work alone anymore, and you have to team up with a bunch of other guys. Enough guys so that you can patch your 'teams' programs every month. Every playable 'hacker' character has to be part of an organised crime syndicate, no exceptions. Have fun with that.

Luckily you don't need a day job because your agent can buy you a new medium lifestyle every week - or 4 a month. Living it large.

Or use Tutor Sprites. Register 4 Rating 4 per day, Compile 1 Rating 6 per day, then have them all use your nexus and programming suite to patch. Extra services is extra virtual bodies since you'll then be able to register new ones while the old ones continue. *During* a 'run have the services avail continue to patch along with a compiled Tutor Spirit also patching. Make sure they are all using the Knowsoft: Patching Cracked Software for extra dice-y goodness.

It requires Charisma for the max # of sprites to be high so a Stream based on Charisma would have an advantage as would a Paragon that gives bonuses to either all ("IO") or to Tutor Sprites.

Sorry, I class technomancers and 'hackers' as different archtypes. But really, technomancers don't need programs. Hackers need programs. They don't have sprites. See the problem?

I appreciate the response and am looking for something more official. Once a thing is converted into a different thing it then *IS* a different thing. In this case a Complex Form and Complex Forms have rules on being improved and on being learned. In your mind a skillsoft is a skillsoft even when its a Complex Form and while that may be the case I'd rather they voice their intention than us inferring it.

Totally a fair assessment. My TM's usually use lots of drones for their combat ability and the drones have cracked autosofts and the team uses a library of skillsofts so my own responses (above) are tainted by my groups and my own playstyle. Totally fair to split them out though.

i ended up getting a copy of the pdf, and looking at page 55, there is info about clusters

perfect for those that earlier asked about representing a whole network as a single node.

hell, it makes me ponder clustering the rfid's of a runners clothing to get a makeshift comlink

p.149, Unwired: "He can now either sustain the program as a normal threaded complex form of the same rating or memorize the skillsoft as a complex form by paying an amount of Karma equal to the rating (+1 for any program option or program option rating)."

It does not clearly say that the memorized CF has in fact a Rating though I agree that "threaded complex form of the same rating" implies that.
If it is a non-rated complex form (p. 136), you shouldn't be able to improve it.

But we have to wait for an official decision.

Characters just need a contact or network where he can acquire/buy/trade the software he wants (which is basically what cracker and warez groups do today); just like any other archetype. If he want's to spread the love and provide top-end programs for everyone on his team, then yeah it can add up—then again the ability to do so or possessing the right contacts to do so distinguishes Matrix dabblers and script kiddies from hackers.

Wait, this can't be right. Skill/know/lingui/active/tutorsofts degrade? Uh... why?

Also, why one earth make SOTA a regular part of the rules when its (rightly, IMO) been optional in prior editions?

-paws
Argh. This is going to be a record keeping nightmare...

Argeed, this seems strange. Degrading is ok (optionally), imho, for things like combat and hacking software - there will surely be new tricks every day, so that programs have to be keept up-to-date. Browse, for example, will perhaps degrade, but not very quickly, as new file formats, etc. will become available that need updates. Analyse, on the other hand, will degrade very quickly, as new programs, etc. will appear every day and the routines will have to be updated regularly.

Skillsofts shouldn't degrade, als Skills also don't. Languages also don't change quickly, so if a piece of code knows Japanese fluently today, it will also be fluently in 10 years, perhaps missing the newest "slang", but that's not enough to make it degrade 1 point, imho.

Before this leads to further misunderstandings degradation only affects cracked programs. If you buy a legal skill soft or linguasoft it will be continually updated for free and will not degrade.

One of the reasons it happens is corps build-in obsolescence as a security feature in case the programs are cracked. This is guaranteed by both ensuring degrading functionality over time if "register users" don't apply patches, but also regularly fixing exploits and patching errors in the system soft/firmware these programs will be interfacing with. Sort of like taking Microsoft's mandatory system and security updates, the update patches for MMORPGs, or the updates for video codecs and Pdf readers and making them a security feature. It won't stop piracy but it'll make it harder on the warez scene.


It shouldn't be too difficult. Every program you possess is either cracked or legal. For convenience assume all cracked programs available at chargen were cracked at around the same time. If it's cracked, every month of game time that passes reduce the ratings of any unpatched hacking or malware programs by 1, for all other programs reduce 1 every two months of game time.