They don't when they're in hidden mode.

Hmmm, I always thought that one of the best features of 4th edition was that hacking wasn't exclusively for the hackers anymore.
For example, in my group there is a hacker. There is another character who can hack, occasionally, when he needs to. If the hacker isn't available, or is knocked out, or jammed or whatever, he's got a fairly nice commlink which he can whip out and make some decent rolls. He's not as good as the hacker, of course, but on rare occasions he can switch from his usual role and save the day with some hacking.

It sort of seems like this sort of thing is less possible now. He certainly can't use legal software, and he wants to keep a full suite of hacking programs just in case he needs them. Oh, plus his library of skillsofts, of course. So suddenly this non-hacker, infiltration/combat character needs skills, money, and time to maintain his abilities? Weird. Of course, I haven't decided whether I want to download the pdf or wait for the dead-tree yet, thus I'm basing this off what people are saying, not the actual book, so maybe I'm way off on this. This whole upkeep thing sounds very not-fun to me.
I was really hoping that Unwired would cause me to retire my matrix house-rules. As it is, I think I'll just have to modify them a bit.

Hmmm, maybe I should bite the bullet and get the pdf; this is going to drive me nuts.

Looks like it can only count as a submersion task if its entropic.

Actually, writing your own programs now is pretty much worthless as you are forced to spend weeks on patching them every month, and so is the Software Skill. It just comes with the Electronics Skillgroup so most people will still have it.

Technically, it enccourages every Hacker to become a Skript Kiddie and just get cracked software.

I think entropic = free in that description, perhaps a mistake. There doesn't seem to be any reason given in the description for it to be limited to entropic sprites, and the submersion task references the dissonance-neutral description on p158. As a GM, I would let a player use a reassembly task for any free sprite. I'd be surprised if that doesn't get errata-ed, but I've been surprised before.

Can we really please let the program degradation fight die? I don't want to stifle argument, but it's really not going anywhere. None of you are going to convince the other side that they're wrong, so just [use|houserule] the thing and everybody put your righteous indignation away.

Pretty much any hacker I know in SR4 became a combat hacker with drones and implants, while sams picked up some drones and hacking, too.

1) The non-hacking runner was and is your point, not mine. Hacking runners will have absolutely no problem using cracked programs.

2) Not true. It equals 3 dice on average, and deviation is even your friend here. Those dice are rolled multiple times, as your Stealth crushes the opponents dp. Assuming a tracing agent 3, Response 3 and Stealth 5 (on your side), the agent needs on average 30 IPs to trace you, -3 IP per legal program in use. Assuming 4 such programs, you are looking at a threshold of 6 / 18 IPs. If those legal programs increased dp, you´d be looking at 5 dice against a threshold of 10, or about 6 IP. A non-hacker against serious trace agents (rating 6) ends as fast as it should, but seven dice against a threshold of 6 will still last more than one IP. Main issue - knowing that you are traced while it happens.

3) It is only true book-keeping if you intend to accept rating reductions. Otherwise you just keep track of the number of hacking/common use/autosofts/autonomous programs you own. Relevant purchases are rare.

Thats kind of what I was thinking it should be... But I still wish I knew how the sprites felt about this. My technomancer is currently having issues with a free sprite (maybe even entropic I don't know...), and I was thinking this might be a way to appease it, or start up some real communication with it. But I don't like the idea of registering sacrificial sprites for it. I try to stay friendly with my sprites.

I don't like it either...as a player. But as a GM, I love the roleplaying opportunity. No matter how the TM chooses, there's a whole plot hook dropped right into my lap.

Nope - the non-hacker was.


No, it's worth 4 dice as that's the ratio of guaranteed hits.


So you think that a cracked Firewall and System doesn't degrade?

Yah, I'm hooked.. and he started all this before Unwired. So until he gets his hand on the book I don't think he has any idea what to do with it yet. But we're taking a break from SR now to try the DnD4... So I'm in the dark for a few months till we get back to SR.

eep, you've been reading my thoughts! time to get the tinfoil hat out again! =P

seriously, i was gonna ask these same questions (well, more or less).

in particular, i was wondering if entropic sprite was supposed to mean free sprite (since entropic sprites don't necessarily reassemble, but free sprites *do*), and whether or not it's possible for a TM to emulate, say, an agent. or a regular program. or a pilot. and if so, how do those interact with stuff, since they're resonance entities? can they run on normal nodes, or do they need to run on the TM's power?

also, there's a sprite power listed in the section on sprites called transfer. so far as i can tell, no sprite actually has this power. what's up with that?

Sure. The bookkeeping is a pain in the ass. Even if, as Dashfein (I think it was him) has pointed out, it's a small pain in the ass, it's still one more thing to keep track of. If that kind of micromanagement floats a player's boat, then by all means he can deal with it. But I think that, over all, it will make using cracked software suck to deal with.

You're right. It's not. But, then again, that wasn't really the point I was getting at.

This makes it a pain in the ass.

This also makes it a pain in the ass. Also, if you play with the rule that says you can only make a number of extended test rolls equal to your dice pool, unless you're a wicked awesome haxor, you're never going to make 20+ rolls. Me, I pretty much do away with extended tests in my game, because they're not fun, and I like to skip to the fun parts.

Yeah. That's kinda what I'm saying. Cracking programs makes more work for the hacker's player. Therefore, he's more likely to tell the other players to buy their own got-damn programs.

Here's a question I had from before, that I don't think Unwired answered

Technomancer's affecting files.

If a Technomancer Encrypts or Data Bombs (or add Timer Option now) a file, how long does that stay? Does he have to remain in the node with it, does he have to sustain the thread for it, or can he just place Data Bombs and Encryption on everything without a worry.

No, unfortunately he is not more likely: He must crack his own programs/buy cracked patches for HIMSELF. When he got the cracked software/patches (which he must do to be able to continue hacking) he can and will distribute the software to everyone else in his group, because this action just needs one sentence: "Dear GM, I send this software to my group". This action is in no way stopping distribution of cracked software in a runnergroup.

And to be honest: I am not quite sure if it makes any sense to balance a game around bad rules. It would mean that SR3, ADD 2nd and Rifts would be totally balanced games.



You don´t seem to understand. You need to roll for every program individually. If you have over 20 programs (common, hacking and some linguasoft for example) you have to roll over 20 times (or buy successes) individually (and each one an extended test). A simple agent rating 4 can buy 16 successes, an advanced agent rating 6 can buy 36 successes that I assume this will be the method of choice.

SYL

No, cracking programs was perfectly fine with the main book - you had to pay the full price initially. Just Unwired made it it Shadowrun: The Accounting.

Dude. Okay. Let's pretend he doesn't crack his programs. What happens? Oh, he doesn't have to deal with all the patching/degradation bullshit. Great! The hacker is now happy go lucky. Maybe, if you're a stickler, you might have him keep up the SOTA with regard to exploit/firewall/attack/stealth. I probably wouldn't, as that kind of micromanagement makes me want to punch babies. Hell, I don't even like keeping track of nuyen - I'd rather buy shit with dice rolls. But I digress.

Now, the players decide they're going to have the hacker crack all his proggies and hand them out to the rest of the team like candy. This is how it would work in my game:

Hacker: Right, I'm gonna crack my warez and disseminate them to the team.
Me: Okay. Here are the cracking rules. Have fun with that. Meanwhile, the rest of you get to start in on the scene that's made of awesome.
Hacker, out of character: Wait, I have to do this all myself?
Me: Yup. Every game month. W00t cracked software rules.
Hacker: Fuck this. You bastards can buy your own software.
Me. Good. Can we get on with the fun stuff now?

Then again, maybe your players are less interested in actually playing than mine are.

Anyway, this subject has long ago descended into the depths of rules-lawyer wankery. You can use, not use, or attempt to justify rules like this however you want. But there's more good stuff in the book than bad, as far as I'm concerned, so I'm dropping this particular subject.

Gah. You know what I meant.

if you *don't* crack your programs, then it will probably be a threshold 0 extended data search test to find you. do i need to explain just how bad that is?

also, iirc, pretty much as soon as you use your registered programs for anything illegal, you can no longer get the patches for them free of charge.

so you're missing out on the part where staying registered isn't really an option. on the other hand, owning a botnet* that patches all your software? that shouldn't be a problem, as far as i can tell. a bit cheesy, and it begs the question of why wouldn't everyone be doing that, but it can be done.

* strictly speaking, the profession autosoft is a drone autosoft. you may need to actually own a bunch of drones instead, which can spend all their downtime patching your programs. regardless, the point stands: drone labor ftw!

They do. Same price category as autosofts. Thank god we only need one of each.

Am I the only one who thinks that rules that turn something in a game into work, hassle, and not-fun-at-all are something a good game shouldn't have?

I'm pretty sure that this implied that I agree with you.

No. I'd rather play D&D4 - it will give me cancer, but at least it's fun cancer.

Which, as I understand it, lost to "The world's most popular role-playing game" by a very narrow margin.

somehow i cant help wonder if people are making a mountain out of a molehill...

my solution, calculate the price of the rating app you use, calculate same price for one rating down (often a very small difference, unless you on the 3-4 line), subtract small number from large number. multiply result by 0.10. add that result to your lifestyle cost. be a happy hacker...

oh, and if your using multiple programs with the same cost forumas, just multiply that last result with the number of apps in use...

hell, if the hacker is any good, he can hack himself a comfortable lifestyle given a couple of days.

now thats a rule that makes one wonder why hackers run the shadows at all...

The hacking a lifestyle is questionable... At least I don't think it should be available for anything above Low Lifestyle.

It is a mistake that results from a previous version, when the free sprites were called entropic sprites and the entropic sprites were called wicked sprites. It changed and apparently I forgot to change that and it managed to sneak past Editing and Proofing. Damn!

Woot I got a typo!

well, anything above middle gets kinda complicated...

oh, and i see now that i missed the part of the hacker having to both roll and pay to get patches on the warez networks

still, unless one wants to be a , its a perfect time to use the buy hits rule

hmm, i cant see any treshold info for finding patches...

You can just emulate software that you can feed into a cybernetic skillsoft system. No computer programs.
As for the limits:

"In game terms, it operates with a rating equal to the submersion grade of the technomancer. In all other regards, it follows the basic rules for skillwire systems."

So yes, same limits.

Bump?

I was wondering the same thing; I think everyone's been assuming that it's the same threshold for the programs.

First you find the Network, which lasts as long as the GM feels like it does, and has whatever he feels it should have.



Then you find the program (quick and easy), then you purchase it. Usually this search will be skipped, unless you are trying to find a program in the middle of the run.

You'd really be amazed.

How many registered programs would you use on a node? If you have registered every program you own, how many would you actually have loaded?
1)Exploit (probably)
2)Stealth (Obviously)
3)Browse? It's probably better to just use the one that's running in the node for everyones use
4)Analyse (Probably)

If you get into cybercombat with registered programs you'd add your favourite attack program and defense program, but I have yet to see a non-contrived instance of cybercombat where the hacker wasn't already boned.

-3/4 to the threshold doesn't seem too bad to me.




Renraku probably doesn't update Lonestar with the SINs of hackers who have made successful runs *all the time*, it's not in their corporate best-interest to let everybody know they were hacked. Oh, I'm sure they keep a list of the SINs and try to track you down that way, and they probably release a few if they are high-profile enough or need an example made, but unless you were big and flashy, you should still be able to get your updates.... unless you used a registered program on a run against the company that made it. If you're doing that sort of thing you probably have bigger problems anyway.

Cheers
CC

i meant that in the sense that as soon as you use the program illegally, (which i assume means as soon as you use it outside of your account privileges, since i can't imagine how else the program could tell) you can no longer get the updates.

Sorry, cracking is not optional for your hacker. Due to the data trail rules, you instantly die if you don't crack all your programs.

You have to use those rules and you have no options re: avoiding them.

Sorry to break that to you!


Now can you stop complaining about rules lawyer wank? Thanks.

Uh, I GM my SR4 game. Nobody dies without my say so, so this is patently wrong.

I have to? Really? Are the GM police gonna show up at my house and beat me with wet noodles until I agree to use rules that make my game less fun? Didn't think so.

I have plenty of options. I could simply ignore them. I could straight up use them as a consequence for player action. I could use them as written. Which one, exactly do I have to do? Hmmm?


I could, but I'm not going to. Any more than people are going to stop complaining about Agent Smith or Pornomancers. The rule in question is pretty clearly included for some "game balance" reason. I don't run balanced games. I'm more concerned with making an interesting story. So, yeah, I'm gonna complain about anything that sucks. So far, I've been really happy about SR4's direction. The degradation rule does nothing but make downtime - you know, the not-fun part of the game - even more not fun. I'm sure as fuck not going to include something in my game that sucks for no better reason than the fact that it's RAW. I'll throw it out, like I throw out any rule that doesn't serve to make the game fun.

Mate, we are discussing SR4 with unwired, not SR4 with houserules and unwired.

Fundamentally, you've changed the rules so the problem that we are complaining about doesn't occur. Now thats probably not a bad fix, but its a bit weak to change the rules, then called me a wanker for complaining something you've removed.

Can you not see the problem? The thread is for talking about unwired RAW, not our favourite houserules

I don't recall personally calling you a wanker. I said, in essence, that trying to justify unjustifiable rules is wankery. Big difference.

I also made the implicit claim that the rule is there for game balance, which I think is a lame reason to add a rule. I'm all for awesome stuff that adds to the game, which the vast majority of Unwired does. But, this rule represents, to me, a serious flaw in the underlying design philosophy of the ruleset. A rule like this rewards micromanagement and GM antagonism. All that they've added with this rule is unnecessary dice rolling, cash expenditure to stay as effective as you are now, and additional bookkeeping. Why? So that the GM doesn't completely fuck you. What does this do? It encourages the GM to completely fuck you for not micromanaging your cracked vs. legit programs. If you're going to add rules, it should add something to the game. This does not add to the game. So, yeah, I am talking about Unwired RAW, and what rules like this mean for the SR4 game as a whole.

You know what would have been awesome? If, instead of adding program degradation, they had included straight-up custom program creation rules. The program options are nice, but it would have been great to get guidelines on how to make non-broken custom programs. Sort of like the spell creation rules in Street Magic.

Umm... only if you get caught. I also must ask, if you can hack out the copy protection, why cant you hack out the "leave fingerprints all pointing back at me all over the matrix" part of the code? I know the RAW do not contemplate such a thing, but it seems sensible.

Deep breaths people. We've been doing well since Unwired's release. Some of the posts above are borderline personal attacks. Let's remember that we're all here to have fun.

Topic change!!!

Silly question I just ran into in my first really close readthrough (as opposed to the four skim reads I've done before it):

Do artificial response decreases limit System and thereby program ratings? Specifically, the response halving (which it doesn't say to round up or down, but that's another issue) from geostationary satlinks and the effect of a response-targetted Nuke program.

Initially, it seems stupid to even ask, but we know from FAQ that response decrease from slowdown of running too many progs doesn't drop system to avoid the death spiral effect.

Nuke's description gives targets of Response or System/Pilot and only when you freeze up both do you lock someone up, which gives me the impression that reducing Response doesn't reduce System as well (otherwise why ever target System?)

Given those two things, I'm almost wondering if _any_ artificial response degradation can affect what programs you can run. It seems more like programs are tied to the response hardware, not the running processing power remaining. In other words, hacking through a geostationary satlink makes your initiative slower and makes you more prone to getting hit, but you can still run your stealth 6 program despite the lag.

Thoughts?

you can hack that part out. it requires modifying the code, which requires that you crack the program... funny how cracked programs don't have that problem, isn't it?

Oh, lol, we are both complaining about the rules then. Good, I'm cool with that

I was getting tetchy because I don't think the 'GM fixes' it method of fixing the rules really flies conceptually, and thought you were advocating that as an excuse for bad rules, but I can see I got confused, and you where saying 'well this is terrible design, and in other news I am not going to use it' which is probably the only response.

So back the ragging on unwired then. I don't realistically think that any 'RAW' hacker can avoid cracking his entire program suite. Even 'browse' - what happens if he runs that while on a node he's hacked into? Or encrypt, or really anything. It just gives team evil to much of a lead back to you.

And I don't see a game balance reason either.

That's easy - it's: Let's nerf Hackers till they cry so Technomancers can feel better.

It just happens to be that every runner will suffer from this serious change.
And of course, the rules are missing a very improtant part: Legal software degrades as well if there is no possibility to access the Matrix.

I can see it being needed in some campaigns and I'd thought some sort of rules for degradation would be good, but I was mainly coming at it from a flavour angle - in the core rules there was no reason why a low-life hacker PC shouldn't just buy all useful programs at Rating 6 and have world class software. I have a couple of problems with it though. The first is the oft-repeated one about it not making sense for things like Autosofts to degrade. I agree with that, and it doesn't "balance" hackers as these things are usable by everyone. And it brings us on to the larger issue which is that I've not actually seen a "hacker" character in an actual game. Admittedly, I have only had one group and can only see the way we played, but I find Dashifen's earlier statement about hacker players normally just being hackers unlikely. I see Hacker-Faces, Hacker-Riggers, Hacker-Samurai,,, and additionally lots of other characters that only dabble in hacking. The attempt to balance "Hackers" is problematic as it kind of enforces a return to the old "classes" style of play by making it harder to be an effective hacker. I don't see that as a good thing.

Possibly some GM's were having problems with the Hacker player starting to pool money whilst the magician and the samurai were always short of cash, but I don't think it's a common issue and that this is the right fix if it is. For a start, magicians who use a lot of bound spirits and samurai who throw around rockets are incurring costs, these aren't compulsory drains necessary to fulfil their roles like the degradation is for hackers. These characters are getting something extra in return for the nuyen and could perfectly successfully play their roles without the expensive extras. Buying enough bullets for a run costs little and a mage can be happy just frying people with spells. The hacker is not gaining anything extra by paying out the cash, however. Possibly more important though, is the question of why a hacker is sitting their pooling money in the first place. It's not as if there isn't a lot of things to spend your money on. If a player is sitting there thinking there's nothing useful for my money because I'm a "Hacker" then the problem is their inability to think outside of their "class." They may have been playing a certain Other Game too long.

I'll be keeping degradation rules of some kind for those programs I think it's appropriate for (Attack, Stealth, etc.) but I'll probably lower the interval and I'll have a think about how I want to handle this. My interest isn't balancing the "Hacker" which is only a preconception of the player, not a character class. My interest is only in establishing realism in my setting. I also very much do not want to dissuade any character from dabbling in matrix operations if they want, any more than I wish to dissuade any character from buying a drone or a vehicle or a weapon focus or whatever. You pay your money, you get your toy. Any toy for anyone; players choice whether to create focused or unfocused characters as they wish.

K.

EDIT: I missed out Technomancers from my consideration above because I've banned them in my game. I don't know how much balancing Hackers need against TM's or whether or not financial penalties are a good way to do that.

One cna have the realism of programs getting less efficient as new IC is introduced by simply using it as a fluff part - aka "You spend some time getting your programs state of the art, Hacker X, until Mr. Johnson calls again."