Rejoice! If you don't have a problem with such a character you also should have no problem being more powerful then a regular Human.

Once again people succeed in proving that something that is used improperly does not work as intended, to a big suprise from the audience. I salute this achievement.

I dispute with you that there is such a thing as 'proper' use of the ruleset. There are things that are possible within the rule set and things that are not.

Are you saying that if he made the ork human looking as part of an RP concept it would become less unbalanced because of the intent behind the choice?

The capability to take both the quality and the metatype is there, and the consequences of the choice should be considered in a reasoned open debate.

One thing I noticed about the Karma gen(well, ok, this was the same for BeCKs), it really does reward a more balanced spread.

Human, attributes 3/3/3/3/4/4/4/4=168k.
Human, attributes 2/2/3/3/4/4/5/5=180k.
Human, attributes 5/5/5/5/2/2/2/2=192k.


The really middleground balanced spread is the cheapest. 750k doesn't sound all that bad. Right now(finally picked it up), I'm going to toy with it remaking some of my old characters, and really see if there is a giant power discrepancy or not. IMO, if it was playtested and it worked, then I'll trust it. I mean, again, bumping up or lowering the amount of Karma can be done table by table with no problem. I just see the 750 as a basic guideline. I don't doubt it will make some things boosted, but I'll have to see just how different these characters end up. (I think I'll remake a variety of my characters to tell...my big, strength-loaded bruiser to see how it works for a pretty single-maxed character, my balanced combat mage, my martial arts/face and my more organic, lightly cybered mundane battle-butler.)

In reading all of this, I notice some people commenting on how metahumans of all types seem to be better than humans. I'm baffled how they think this is new. The BP system offered sometimes huge benefits at minor bp costs. The karma system, if you build up a character to where the average would be (rather than just trying to be better than a human), you'll see that there is an inherent cost there as well.

A Strength 3 Human is the racial equivalent to a Strength 7 troll. Meaning that a Strength 3 Human is average. So is a Strength 7 Troll, in relation to the metatype.

You can't compare how strong a troll is compared to a human and expect point costs to balance. the damned thing is 50-100% larger than the human and built like a truck. It's not a fair comparison at all.

But using the example above, a strength 3 human will cost 15 karma to reach their racial average on strength, and a troll will cost 39 karma for the same racial average. *that* is where the comparisons should be made, and that is where you see it still costs to be a metahuman.

If you're just trying to take a metahuman so you can be a slightly better human, you're intentionally tweaking the rules beyond their spirit. Does it work within the rules as written? Sure. I just think it's bad form.

EDIT:
A fully average human, 3's across the board in attributes costs 90 Karma
A fully average Troll, rounding up on the odd numbered maximums (7, 3, 3, 7, 2, 3, 3, 3) costs 151 karma

It *does* cost to be a metahuman.

why should we be comparing 'average' members of the race? if they both have strength 4, then from a game balance POV, they should have both paid the same amount to get there. now, i'll allow that sometimes game balance needs to shut up and go sit in the corner until it learns to play nice with 'this game is fun to play', but in this particular instance, i'm not convinced it's one of those times where game balance shouldn't be preserved. in what way does it make the game play better to have an ork with lower than ork average strength and body cost less than a human with average strength and above average body? what does that add to the game? it's not really any more fun. on the other hand, it does remove balance from the game.

it is therefore not particularly desireable on one side hand, and particularly undesireable on the other. if there's one vote for "i don't care either way" and one vote for "i think it should be this way" and those are the only 2 votes, it makes far more sense to go with the vote that cares than it does to go explicitly in the opposite direction.

But that's just it, while the metatypes are basically balanced against each other, it's hard to say they're balanced against humans. Elves get bonuses with no weaknesses. None. Zero. The 1 point of edge extra on humans does *not* make up for this fact. The BP don't do near enough to balance things out until you start making full blown mages with mentor spirits. Only then do the metatypes start falling behind because they're out of BP before the humans are.

Calling the karma system whacked because it favors metahumans is silly because *all* of the systems did that excepting the original priority system, which very distinctly put the metas at a disadvantage unless you went with the optional "more metas" rules.

Yeah, the original priority system was so brutal. Go forbid you wanted a metahuman magician. You were screwed.

And that's exactly what makes all of this so incredibly amusing.

actually, elf isn't that great. 3 attribute points in exchange for... well... 30 build points. not a huge deal. elf gets low-light, human gets +1 edge. i know which one is more exciting to me.

similarly, people go on and on about how ork is such an amazing deal because it's 5 points of attribute bonus for 2 points worth of BP. but ummm... humans get 1 point of attributes in exchange for 0 points of BP. and unlike the ork's strength, edge is useful for every single character concept out there pretty much. orks, on the other hand, get a +2 bonus to strength... who cares? if it wasn't for that +3 to body, no one would get all that excited about orks. so sure, orks get a bit of a bonus over a human in BP chargen, but it isn't really all that big of a deal, because +1 edge at a cost of 0 is actually really quite good, and if you don't run out of BP for all your character concepts than i can only assume you're not ambitious enough with them, because i run out of BP to buy everything i want all the time on riggers and hackers, never mind technomancers, adepts, magicians, and so forth.

The Body bonus to orks, IMO, is no doubt the big seller for them. Especially for the magician types. From the numbers standpoint, 1 point lower Charisma and Logic is not that bad of a deal. They can still summon decent spirits, and if they take an Intuition based tradition, they're golden. That +3 to body(which, ironically, is 20 BP), is what the folks look at(since everyone and their brother speaks of how Strength is the most useless stat in Shadowrun. Ok, thanks to Recoil compensation it's got a LITTLE more love, but on the other hand, the invent of Martial Arts and stacking DVs sort of takes away some of the love.)

Ok, I can say so far: The Karma system is really nice. 750 IS a healthy amount, though. What it does favor, for sure, are people who like their 3's and 4's.

So far, I remade my big bruiser and my combat mage(both human). The combat mage ended up marginally better than with the rules before(we use Frank's houserules.) Extra point of Logic and Willpower(still not maxed), extra point of Body. Edge is the same, money came out better by about 40k. Active skills slightly improved, but not by much(I think I managed to add 1 point to Perception, Enchanting, and could get him the Assensing skill). Knowledge skills were happily better, and I like this aspect of it(he has a lot of Knowledges.) Spells and martial arts maneuvers are the same I think(actually what ARE the cost of MA manuevers? BP cost x 2?) All in all, not really enough massive improvements to throw off a game. One extra die on a few tests, as has been figured out, does not really add a ton of successes.

The big bruiser is a funny case, now. I actually have about 100 karma LEFTOVER after even boosting up other stats of his. He was sort of a big, kinda lunkheaded, streetfighting repo-man prettboy(lots and lots and LOTS of Strength, good Body and Charisma as well, not so hot mental stats). I even improved a couple of his skills, and I just can't think of anything else to buy with him. it was odd; because I not only maxed out his money and got him Exceptional Strength and Genetech Strength..:AND Hardmaxed it to 8, but yeah. He's just one of those characters that doesn't *have* a lot of stuff or need a lot for what he does. I DID do something pretty cool with him though, and that was give him a lot of Street Knowledge skills at a low level(1-2), with his 3 INT and 1 LOG before, he didn't have so many points.

So far, my verdict: 750 can indeed be a lot for a more ''street'' oriented character, but I don't think it's unbalanced, as while the numbers LOOK higher, they aren't that much higher that they start throwing off success averages. I'll be remaking my more upscale elven(testing meta waters here) combat/face, and then my more organic fellow to see the differences there.

Well this has brought me out of lurking mode for sure.
FYI: Daegann's SR4 chargen program includes both BP and straight karma costs.

I'm going to put this at the start so it doesn't get lost. What's a simple way to fix this. Give humans more starting perks. If humans under karma started w/ straight 2's for all 9 stats, it'd go a long way towards equalizing things. Meta's get freeby points... so do humans now. That works out to 54karma worth of head start for a human. It doesn't address the fact that they'll probably end up paying for it just to max a stat just to keep up w/ the Jones (the metas). But it does give a rough parity w/ say a dwarf, orc, or elf (40-60 freebie karma, plus stat bumps knocking that to 70-80'ish). I'd probably still look at putting an extra karma cost for taking troll/sasquatch/etc.).

That still leaves an issue, humans lower attribute caps giving inferior dicepool potential. I can see two ways to address that, make the max allowed skill for a human an 7 (exceptional 8 ). Or change exceptional attribute so that it raises the max for a human by two instead of one. (elven agi 8 now can match human agi 8... still can't touch that 8 cha though, that human mage w/ 8wil must have had a little bit of dwarfen blood in his heritage). I favour the skills angle as it's unique, and makes for good generalist chars instead of just a good AGI build.

I think a human starting w/ straight 2's and 1 point higher skill caps (starting and max) would at least be competitive, though still far from top dog. The world needs more humans, and less 'human looking' orcs.

..............


I want to say right up front, I give the devs some BIG points for coming out and defending there stuff. The problem is I don't find their arguments convincing or even well reasoned. It's as if they have zero idea of trying to keep things from going way out of balance. I believe they want to place that burden squarely on the GM, who doesn't have the luxury of falling back on the rulebook says no you can't. Who then looks like a petty dictator, no you can't do that, it's broken...

Hyzmarca: First rule: if it can be abused, it will be abused. I agree both systems can be gamed, any system can and will be. The point is to minimize or reduce the abuse. Karmagen makes a bad system even worse. There's always going to end up being a 'best' and 'worst'... no such thing as perfect balance. That doesn't mean you don't at least try.

Ancient History: I see your argument that it costs humans less to attrib up now. It makes sense, the problem is that concurrently you've given everyone zero incentive to take advantage of this. Because while you're saving points for skills. You still have to spend those points just to 'catch up'. Raises don't matter, final values do. And since no one else has stated this outright, attribute maximums matter. When the rubber meets the road, 12 beats an 9 dice pool pistols skill, don't you agree.

If my cap for a skill is 6 in the skill, 6 in the stat I can't ever exceed 12dice short of 2 exceptionals (expensive!) knocking me to 14. Compared to a Meta w/ a naturally higher stat limit... they don't tap out as quickly. They start out just as good, but have more room to advance should they so choose at far less cost. Especially once the extra cost of maxed attributes and exceptional attributes are considered.

Here's the biggest problem I see. It's no longer a disincentive to pick the biggest BP cost race I can because I make out on the karma bigtime. It's a karmariffic goldmine for karmagen. You completely removed any point based cost/drawback to playing them. Lets face it, how often does the GM give the troll a hard time just for being a troll. (increased monthly cost of living, racial harassment, increased public scrutiny by authorities, hard to find cyber/bioware because the troll-sized market is tiny compared to the human sized market (which works on humans, elves, etc. etc. etc... look at the trolls thread, most don't). Without those RP controls in place and encouraged... the only thing which matters is the BP/Karma costs.

If I want to play a character w/ straight 5's & 4's... I just pick the meta w/ the biggest BP cost and smallest attrib penalties (because that's now nullified and I get 2xBP in freebie karma). Karma is a miscible resource. It doesn't matter where it's spent. Points not spent attribs can be spent on skills/advantages/not taking disadvantages.

What are some of the good points of karma buy that I see...
It doesn't matter now if I don't come out of chargen w/ maxed stats. It costs just as much to raise them now as later. This encourages more expenditure in skill points.
You never saw trolls raise their strength after chargen unless it was a particularly weak troll to start with because the karma cost was prohibitive.
It's fairly easy to start w/ say 600karma chars... decide they're underpowered and just give everyone 50karma to levelup. (750 does seem high).
I no longer am tempted to come out of chargen w/ a 1 in an attribute so that it only costs me 6 karma to raise it to 2, rather than 15+ to raise my primary which I put as high as possible in chargen. More balanced stats are encouraged.

Dislikes: there's zero incentive for a troll/orc in chargen not to bring up his mental stats to above average as it's dirt cheap compared to that last strength raise. A lower cap does not result in increased costs to reach 'average' like it should. (this is also a criticism of BP I admit).

IN looking over all three chargen options, it seems:

BPs seem to favor folks who like a lot of fiddling. You'd think that would be Karma...but I find myself fiddling with a character way more with BP than I do Karma.

The Priority...it's hard for me to still tell what it favors. It almost seems to favor hard-maxers, in a way...more focused and specialized in one or two things, but seems to be a bit weaker around the board. I'm not TOO big on this system, I tend to prefer spread-out characters for the most part.

Karma does indeed seem to favor folks who like a spread.

For the record, three of the four characters I made were human. I play humans because I like humans. One was an elf. If I want to make a troll, I'll make a troll. (IMO, I'm in the boat of if Metas seem to unbalanced, either A. Toss a Karma cost on them, or B. Limit them to attribute points like a human(Half Karma, period.) I could see a Karma cost easily being attached to the metas kinda like in BeCKs. Either BP cost, or like everything else, double BP cost-so Orks 40, Trolls 80, Elves 60, Dwarves 50, and any of the other races, give 'em anything.)

Anyway, it would not be a *big* loss to them, but it would be a cost. That's 80 less BPs that the troll gets to toss around. He'll still get his good Attributes if he wants, but 80 less Karma is 80 less Karma.

If I may, and I might have missed this even though I read the thread...why the devs decided to NOT make metahumans cost anything under this system? Was it indeed because to get to their ''higher'' numbers it cost more? If so, I can KIND of see it, but when you can take a Troll and give him 1 under the max in all of his stats with LESS than his allowed Karma...ok, that MIGHT be a bit much. (I honestly DON'T have a problem with the 750 Karma. In fact, my combat mage, made with 400 BP under Frank's rules, translated *almost* to 750, so even 400 BP characters, regardless of BBB or houserules, can vary in ''karma'' cost. My big fella, on the other hand, clocked in under 600 Karma, and he was made with the same rules.)

Anyhow, I can also see the arguement that while it costs a Troll around 350 karma to bring all of his base Attributes up to 1 under the normal max(starting with 1 edge), , it costs a Human 336 to bring all of his base Attributes to 1 under the max (Troll Spread: 9/4/5/9/3/4/3/5, E: 1; Human Spread 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 Edge: 2. Human does cost around 15K less, ends up with 2 lower stats(one of those stats arguably the ''most useless stat in the game'' according to most people, especially with new Martial Arts rules...besides, a Human with a 5 strength does exactly 2 less DV than a troll with a 9.), the Human does make out *better* in Agility, Intuition, Logic, and Charisma, for the same cost. Honestly, looking at it like this, Humans still look desireable to me. I'm not seeing this Trolls=New Gods thing. Now, naturally, with this method, you can do the ol' Troll Magician hella nicely, easily maxing out a Mental stat of choice(Intuition based trolls really don't suffer that much), and still have good mental stats, AND make them very sturdy on top of it, and dumping Strength, but people do this under BP anyway.

I dunno, I guess I'm in that boat of liking to play what I like to play, and not really caring if it's an uber numerical advantage. (I'm still making up my Elven Combat/Face and my Human Mundane Battle Butler with the Karma rules, to see how THEY turn out. I also might remake my troll big game hunter, just to see if he ends up staggeringly ''More Powerful'' like some are claiming, compared to his 400 BP version.)

As for 750, I like how it put it there...making, IMO, good ''professional'' level runners, but NOT totally overblown in power. (Im looking at these papers in front of me and Im not seeing gods.) I'll even post 'em all later on to let people see comparisons. Keep in mind, though...I'm not trying to break these systems. I'm simply remaking the characters and if they can get a little more added that I wanted in the first place, I add it.

(BTW....I can't seem to find the Karma Cost of Martial Arts manuevers around. Does anyone have info on them? are they 2xBP in Karma?)

EDIT: I also wanted to say I did love many things in this book. Advanced Lifestyles are AWESOME. Contacts? Likewise awesome. I like how the Metavariant rules are back. Now, I'm not too into the SURGE thing, and probably wouldn't use that aspect, nor the really weird races...but they are at least included for folks who want to. I love the new Qualities, as well.

EDIT 2: Ok, looking this over AGAIN, I can say something else I love about the Karma system as it is. Mother"%#¤&" Technomancers seem to now be fully viable characters who don't suck out of chargen.

This may work well enough if your group only uses the 5 core metatypes, but still has several factors you are not considering.

First, you are receiving a higher Natural & Augmented Attribute maximum for free. This can partially be offset by some races lower maximums on other Attributes, but that only ever becomes a disadvantage if you would want to raise those Attributes higher than allowed, in which case you should be playing a different metatype for your character concept/archtype.

Second, you are failing to take into account other advantages the metatypes receive, such as a Dwarf's Pathogen & Toxin resistance, or a Troll's Natural Armor.

Third, as soon as you begin to use the metavariants or sentient species available in Runners Companion (some of the variants in particular), the previously outlined issue becomes far more pronounced. As an example, the Wakyambi, for the same cost as an Elf, has everything the Elf has, plus 10 Build Points worth of Positive Qualities.


This here is your problem, Using Frank Trollman's set of House-Rules, your combat mage is already significantly more powerful than a RAW character with the same Build Point allocation.

Double the Build Points you spent on all your skills. If you have maxed any Attributes, add 5 Build Points each. If you have maxed your Magic, add 15 Build Points. Compare the new Build Point (RAW) cost to your "almost" 750 Karma. You will then begin to see the power discrepancy. This is, of course, for your Human characters. Metatypes other than Orks have an even higher Build Point cost than in Trollman's rules.

You have a point there, but still...I suppose it depends what you consider actual power. Die pool sizes...or ranges of skills and abilities? I admit, in talking to people, there do seem to be several different PoVs on this.

Under RAW, the mage is a bit more limited...but when transferred to the houserules, he didn't grow ''up'' as much as he did ''out''. His biggest die pools? Honestly, they either had NO change, or a change of one die. What he WAS able to do is get a wider array of skills, rounding him out more. The way we play, we LIKE this. It's not like the transformation turned him from 0 to God. It turned him from ''good combat mage, narrow focus'' to ''good combat mage, a bit broader focused, but still far from insane.'' I wouldn't say significantly more powerful. Then again, I wasn't really trying to twink him out, either. I supposed if I sat down to REALLY twink...maybe he would have been significantly more powerful.

Now, transferring him to the Karma rules? He gained one skill and a couple of points to other skills. Honestly, in his incarnation, I don't see him throwing off any campaigns or unbalancing many parties. His die pools are really not too much different, and I think it's been discussed here a few times the differences of 1-2 dice in a DP is typically not too unbalancing in the end(I forget the actual equation of what DPs equaled what successes on average, but they're here somewhere.)

I thought of running a few ''tests''...Ie, half the players make their characters with RAW, and the other half with karma, and see ''who is better in game...'' but that would sort of, well...throw things off. The BP system is meant to be used in a BP game, likewise, the Priority system is meant to be used with that. Karma used with Karma.

Again, I LIKE how they give a fairly generous-but not too insane, honestly, IMO-point value. Then again, my GM style is different. Unless I have some killer one or twoshot idea, if I'm going into a longer campaign, I sit down with the players and ask and discuss what kind of campaign we want(high action? High intrigue? Power level?) When we determine that, THEN I toy with point values and the like, so we're all on the same page. If we agree ''lower power'', then Ill toss 'em 500 or so Karma. New runners? 600 karma. Midpower I'd run with the 750(IMO, this makes what i like to call Early Pro level. You aren't Prime, IMO, but you aren't a noob.). Or, they want high insanity? Here ya go, 950-1000 karma, have fun.

Thing is, no matter what point value is listed, you will always find detractors. There are folks who think 400 is too much and like to lower it, and folks who think it too little and like to raise it. Each is fine. Unless you list a BUNCH of BP/Karma/whatever point totals in a list (Ie: 500 Karma: Lower level. 600 Karma: New Runners. 750 Karma: Semi-Pro runners, but not high-end. 850: Higher end) in a book, you will find folks who disagree with the number, and folks who agree with it. I guess in a perfect book, you'd find a long list of numbers and the type of game they are good for attached to it. Til then, I kinda like giving one ballpark number and then letting the GM raise or lower it. But again, everyone has differing opinions there, too.

EDIT: To touch on twinking/not twinking, the power of twinking can throw off many things. I could hand 4 reasonable players 450, 475, or even 500 BPs to make characters with, and rather than inflate them upward, they will round out their stats, skills, and gear more; there won't be a Pornomancer, Bloodzilla, or 29 DP pistoleer in the bunch. Then, I can hand Twinky McTwink 400 BPs and tell them to make a character, and out will pop a Pornomancer or whatever over-inflated character and can actually take the action AWAY from the higher BP characters. IMO, a supertwink can throw off about anything.

If someone has a problem with metahumans and alternates having no cost in the karma system, the simplest solution would be to rule that they have a cost. To modify the maximum values for human characters and all that jazz seems to be missing the actual "problem" (IMHO) and a bit dishonest. The vallues are there. You want a slight cost, use the BP costs, want them to cost more, double the BP cost (as the Karmasystem demonstrates), want to screw them make the cost even higher. It is as simple as that and has allready been demonstrated under the priority system of earlier editions (more/less metahuman rule).

The karma system is a good base, that can easily be adjusted to the needs of individual campaigns or characters.

Isath:
The point of suggesting modifying the human. Rather than trying to tweak everything else is because quite simply. Putting a cost on everything else, you now have to generate an exact cost for everything else. I think it's easier just to give humans under karma a slight bit more to work with. So that they're reasonably cost effective compared to dwarfs, elves, orks, and even trolls (if you police trolls and other exotics w/ in game RP constraints, harassments, and costs, I think you can make people think twice before abusing them). It's a classic case of, do you nerf EVERYTHING or accept a little bit of powercreep and give humans a bit more to work with. (both are acceptable answers, but only once you admit the human is at a disadvantage... which I don't think the devs do).

I agree as well that this effectively changes the karmapoint totals from 750 to 800+ for everyone, but I'd also advocate only giving people 600karma to work with, then after you see what they've done give them 50-100 more after the first session (or with the directive to now use this karma to round out your chars). But starting karma is just a number, and the great thing about it... is you can't just add BP easily to an already created char who's spent karma. But you can add karma midway through a game.

I don't think that idea works under BP nearly as well, because a 2 stat is only worth 6karma under karmagen, but it's worth 15-20karma(10BP) each under BP gen. And there's no way whatsoever to rectify that because one has increasing marginal costs while the other doesn't. (I prefer increasing marginal costs so I prefer to try and fix karmagen, as I put at the end of my post, there's some things I like about karmagen, but the meta vs. human screw completely eliminates them).

I like that karmagen encourages more generalized chars, instead of pushing people to try and get key stats and skills as high as they can in chargen because otherwise raising them later is prohibitive compared to learning/raising low skills w/ karma later. I disagree that people going for max stats is the problem (karma has the maxed stat BP cost already built in w/ it's increasing marginal costs), if they want to spend that much on a high stat let them. But the devs seem to think people w/ maxed/nearly maxed stats is the norm instead of the population outliers.

The other thing I see as problematic is most stat limitations aren't really a problem. Okay the troll face w/ 4 cha might be a limit, but people don't really play that, they pick something else like the sasquatch instead since it's not penalized in any stat. As far as most troll players builds go.. an 'average' human score of 3 cha is just dandy. But that's a problem w/ both systems. Under karma ironically it costs less to max out a weak stat, than it would under BP making low stats less of a limitation.

While this is perfectly correct there's still a "nitpick" for you initial comment on breeding that to a certain extend even deals with the Obsidimen's potential "comeback" via SURGE:

Orginially Drakes weren't even able to reproduce and they sure as hell were quite similar to Obsidimen by being magically created by their dragon masters in some sort of conjuring, yet being corporal beings: They were part "weird spirit of various types I'd say" and part actual flesh with pretty much an identical anatomy to two Namegiver races. "Somehow" they ended up as being able to breed and the details on that are rather unimportant, when it comes to the question if Obsidimen might have developed in a similiar way and at least some of the changeling traits allowing to play with that idea.

I'd use a generalized factor of the bp costs if I wanted a cost, which in my eyes, is less work than going beyond chargen, by changing stat maxima. If I feel the human is to weak I can still grant him some sugar on top.

I do tag along however on the point of reducing the starting karma. 750 is huge, if you do not have a metatype cost. One of my characters could have been translated from BP to karma with slightly more than 400 karma (I have to admit, that though that I needed more BP desperatly ). Even though it is in need of some individual tweeking, I like the karma system more and more. Maybe I'll give it a try when setting up a new campaign.

The details of bred drakes vs. true drakes are complicated and of a different matter entirely. While not completely up-to-date, I would suggest you take a look at the dracoforms page to become aquainted with some of the history.

~sigh~ the quotation marks on "somehow" as well as the notion of the specifics being unnecessary for a general comparison could have told you that I'm well aware of how bred drakes came into existance (both from the ED perspective as well as from the SR perspective). Instead of suggesting to me that I look up that particular part of history, you'd better take a little step back (and maybe become again the AH I personally liked far better) and free yourself from your somehwat narrowed perspective that your personal knowlegde about ED and now the intimate knowledge about certain SR development processes has given you:

You as involved writer may not have had the intention of bringing back Obsidimen via SURGE and ofc the details of the Drake development wouldn't be the exact same thing one might expect for Obsidimen. However, the claim that their "known" ways of propagation or their spirit-fleshbeing-cross-existance makes it "impossible" that during the course of time the Obsidimen might have experienced a "similar" (not identical) development to Drakes up to a point where some (if not all) of their traits express themselves coming from the "Changeling" / "SURGE" perspective is unsound. I have to suspect that your personal ideas are blocking you there.

Currently there is no story arc for ED that would suggest such a development and you as SR-writer might not have the intention of bringing Obsidimen back in this manner, but it's rather ridiculous to outright deny the possibilty just because it doesn't fit your personal PoV when some of the SURGE-traits heavily "ring bells" for others.
Oh and to remind you of something: What were the words after Ryan Mercury showed up in the Dragonheart Trilogy and caused an uproar?
Something along the lines "Drakes won't be part of the normal time line" ... Some months later we had them as NSCs ... then we heard "No we won't see them as SCs" ... but we sure as hell got them even in SR3 and we have them again now ... plus Faries turned Pixies ... a.k.a. Windlings

Even if the events that create Obsidimen would already be in motion, it takes literaly decades for them to emerge from their lifestones and than they just sit around for some more decades contemplating about... stuff. SR will be pretty much Obsidimen free for some time, unless the devs start changing the fluff that is left over from ED.

So, it is kind of ok do outright deny Obsidimen at this point in SR.

Well you can always play a character that thinks or plays like an obsidiman. I mean, there are tons of silly surge things to do all sorts of things. I can play chuthulu if i wanted to, they do have the Cephalopoidal Skull (which is one of the silliest things i have come upon in that book). Plus Shadowrun is a game that really doesnt have a firm history. The 4th age history isnt really automatically connected (being that earthdawn has alot of things that could be a view of how a certain people thought things worked out, aka dragons telling everyone that they created the races) and even the current storyline is not solid fact (with all that fun shadowtalk and mysteries). I personally think it makes the game better that way anyways.

Or the absence of Obsidiman and T'skrang could have to do with the fact that it is different companies that own the rights to use those concepts. Sprites were in SR while FASA still owned SR and ED and so fall under the licensing of SR.

This book is so broken that I have actually cancelled my regular SR and group and I am going to take up D&D 4th as being less cheesy. I'm surprised that no one is bitching about how cheesy Born Rich and Restricted Gear are. And those aren't optional. They're core.

Also, who the hell plays Orcs anymore? For the same points and advantages I can get -20% lifestyle costs. Fuck off.

Did anyone playtest anything other than stupid shit like "all Nosferatu" or "all Banshee" groups? Seriously.

is born rich the 10 BP advantage that lets you take 10 BP more worth of money?

I thought it was absolutely terrible. Yes, I totally want to spend 20 BP on 50k nuyen, thats a good investment.

Wtf?! Its a terrible quality. I'd be fine if it was like.. 10 BP and just gave you the cash - because it limits what you can actually spend on positivity qualities.



Edit: Agreed that the book in the general case is absolutely terrible though.

Born Rich lets you go beyond the 50 BP cap on resources during character generation, to 60 BP, breaking the cap that restricts everyone else. Some folks might actually like to have more than 50 BP in stuff/gear/warez when they start the game... this plus Restricted Gear can make for a fun starting character.

Huh, so you are dumping SR4 because of Optional Rules?

The simple fact about books like RC is it should get you thinking. It should get you to review the rules you are currently using and see if you can do anything better.
That is how you improve your games, not by introducing Free Spirits (or Dracoforms ), but simply getting you to consider "what could I do better, and does this book give me ideas".

That is why I find this metahuman argument to be complete wank. Anyone with the book has a servicable SURGE system to make their own variants, at the very least a framework to make their own. They just so happened to include examples of how the SURGE system can work (and how the point values are not sacrosanct[i])[/i].

Runners Companion will not ruin anyones game, that can be left to the GM who holds too much importance to the print on the page, instead of what is important to their own game.

The Runners Companion has an opportunity to improve everyone's game, even if you house rule everything you use in it.

The only issue I have with Shadowrun at the moment is the rarity of the books in the stores of Australia. Demand has outstripped supply so much that I have three players who cannot even buy the Core Rules and just heard a national distributor in Australia complaining of their inability to get any decent volume like they were talking about an 16GB iPhone in black.

And I think you're comparing apples to oranges. You want a knee-jerk out of me, suggest those bones on Mars are from a dragon sometime.

Dude, Those bones on Mars? They are from a dragon.

Totally.

Not only does it let you break the regular limits by spending additional points, making it, essentially, like Aptitude, Exceptional Attribute or Lucky, but it gives you a background hook with your apparently wealthy family.

Why does spending 20 points to get 10 bp worth of resources and a background hook equate to broken?

Dragons hibernate on Mars. Old news.

*runs*



Obsidimen in SR... I think they might have some choice things to say about SK, MCT and other heavy-industry corporations. Exploiting a liferock for magic or minerals? Hard choice. If you want to bring them back, let their liferock awaken in a deep mine. The drones report funny business as the first obsidimen warriors separate from the Life-Rock and engage, your runners are send to investigate.

I actually meant that it's perfectly cool, by me.

I thought they went there for vacation. You know, like Disneyland. Tourism is big business for the Martians.

@You and the other poster that said it has hooks etc...

Yeah.. its still not very good mechancially. I mean I can see why you might want to take it, but its pretty much the suck in terms of 'power' which was my orginial point.

If it had some sort of ongoing effect it might be worth it, but really its kinda lame.

Suggest: If your player wants to take it.. just let him spend more BP on gear/stuff/warez/whatever instead of punishing him by making him take a 10 BP advantage before he can engage in behaviour that isn't exactly that hot.

And what would be the "apple" and what the "orange"?



Actually what I want of you is far from such a knee-jerk. Interestingly enough I want something that is pretty much in line with what so far has been the "official" stance on said "dragon" bones on Mars:

Nothing is known for sure. Those might or might not be dragon bones.

What you've been doing here so far is such a knee-jerk: You outright deny the possibility

... for something that can be interpreted as being part of the Obsidimen's return, but could turn out to be something completely different if "you" (as the makers of SR) ever decided to give a more conclusive insight on the reasons behind SURGE and / or should come up with the "return of Obsidimen" (all possible copyright / trademark issues left aside for now).

But hey, who am I to even suggest something like that? ~shrugs~
This just marks the second time for me that someone who made the transition from "fan" to "maker" leaves me with a very bad impression.

Drakes and obsidimen.


Be fair, so far the official stance has been to not mention them at all.


Leaving aside for the moment the repeated assertions by the devs (and not lowly freelancers like m'self) that it's too early for obsidimen, I don't deny the possibility of their return - I just point out that it's pretty bloody unlikely they'll return as a SURGE phenomenon because of the particular aspects of their magical nature and biology - if and when obsidimen do show up, I'm pretty sure it's not going to be a human waking up after a three-day coma to find themselves seven feet tall and made of living rock.. In other words, I'm arguing with you using in-game logic and your counterargument is accusing me of going dev on you.


Now, now. I've always been a bit of a prick. Actually getting paid to write hasn't changed that.

The best kind, too. An honest one.

Lucky me that the comparison I made was on the level of "fruit" rather than on the level of "apples" and "oranges"



~hmm~ I was under the impression that the book that brought them into existance itself gave that "answer" ... and I seem to recall answers from "offcials" during interviews / conventions that went straight in that direction. Deny nothing, just leave it open.



As if the idea that was presented in this thread actually said that the specific SURGE trait was already the return of "true" Obsidimen, right?



Just as "unlikely" as it was that Drakes made the transition from a magically crafted beings that were unable to reproduce on their own? The particular aspects of their magical nature and biology made that pretty much "unlikely" as well. Yet it "worked". But that's ofc "apples" and "oranges" to you ...



See, I didn't expect such an "easy" way either, but I wouldn't outright deny the possibility or some sort of link between certain Obsidimen-like SURGE-traits and whatever "you guys" finally draw out of the hat to bring them back - provided that it ever happens.



I guess I have a different perspective on what I consider "in-game logic", because what you used to me is "off-game background information" ... from a different game that already had its precendent of nothing being set in stone with Drakes in conjunction with SR that created its own precedent with SURGE.



Actually you went "dev" on the thread opener and those who picked up the idea ...



The key word for me there being "bit" ...

But I better leave it as it is now ... SR4 is too unimportant and uninteresting to me to continue this argument

I shall now proceed in laughing manically. Who shall join me!

I'm fairly certain your impression is incorrect, as there is nothing in Portfolio of a Dragon or the Missions adventure to give that impression.


Could you try to rephrase that? I'm having trouble following your meaning.


Drakes had a mechanism or two in their favor - including the presence of genitalia, Aardelea, and the anecdotal ability of humans to be changed into drakes. Obsidimen lack all three.


There's a word for people that walk out on a losing argument.

It didn´t exactly work on its own IIRC. Can´t dig for the source, my earthdawn GM has the books (*getstoplayhappydance").

Not to change the subject... but what's with all the 4th Edition hate around here?

ok, that allmost made me perform a knee-jerk-like response-action . .
but then i looked at the clock and lo and behold, officially only 20 minutes untill i get to leave work for home and i don't think it's enough time for me to go into detail where the reasons lie on MY side of the screen . .

No hate on my part. Best SR system so far, unless I´m missing out on first edition.

Same with DND 4e hate, nWOD hate, Exalted 2E hate, etc.: people hate change.

It'll fade. And then 5th Edition will come out and everyone will reminisce about "the good old days of 4th edition."

I agree, in my opinion SR4 is the best edition of this game so far.

I love SR4e. Also when you run a game (i dont want to sound like im telling you how to gm but) you should consider nothing but what you want core. Yes having certian things in the game will help the mechanics because the game rules are based on that but how many people you know use all sorts of house rules or run a game machanic in a different time line or world. If you want want someone using something (if i have a player who wants a squid head im going to kill him myself) then dont allow it. There aint no way im going to allow people play any of the non meta races unless they have a really good reason and the rest of the group agrees but that is my choice to do that. If i love vampires then i would let a game go with everyone infected and having cults and orgies. Its all optional.

Now i'm curious.
What is a good reason?

Edit : Excuse me, really good reason, as in REALLY GOOD backstory™.

Right, I think the...

"I hate to be forced, to have options"

...stance is somewhat odd.

Centaur, once frolicked with friends in the forest
Kidnapped by mean men with lassos and electric prods
Violence, beatings, pain
Forced to make demeaning porn sims with all manner of beasts
And then they slip
A three fingered hand finds a gun
An evil man's brain decorates the ugly plywood wall
Freedom