First rule when you want to avoid the death of an NPC: Do not show the NPC in game ever.

If you don't want an NPC getting killed, do not introduce it to the PCs. Do not have it appear at all, keep it away from the attention of the players and the PCs and use it as a background power working through lots of intermediaries. Coincidentally, it also keeps the game from gettig dominated by a GM-(N)PC.

Maybe GURPS or another generic system would better suit your gaming style then?

RedBrick and Catalyst are in touch, no worries.

That is probably the only reason why most human megacorp CEOs in SR have survived... until the PC hacker can exploit his way into a Thor platform.

To go into a different direction: The title "Dawn of the Artifacts" leaves lots of possibilities to go without plastering the campaign with IEs and GDs. If there's rumors about any unusual artifacts having surfaced, there's bound to be enough mundane parties after them. Maybe IEs are behind some of those, but there's no reason to have Harlequin himself show up to the PCs and yell "Bring me my magic backscratcher from 10000 years ago!"

My own personal belief, since I'm not going to go into histrionics re: IEs / GDs (I like the GDs better, but that's because I've gotten over my "elves are awesome!" schtick and like kobolds much better ()) -

I like the Earthdawn connections, but I'm not a huge fan of the fact that the Horrors might return at some point. I know that that will probably *never* get written up, ever and I realize that it's a completely weird thing to get hung up on, but I like Shadowrun and I don't want to see it completely formatted because some big bad boo spirits show up and raze the place.

Again: I realize that this is an irrational thought. I can get over that

Actually while Harliequin 1 could get a bit long winded at the end, Halies back did, I thought, a pretty good job of putting the players in the spotlight. I'm pretty sure Harlequin actually gets taken down and the PCs have to save him or something like that.

Oh and for the out of the box chars not every dragon is great and not every high end mage is immortal.

see, this was my major point aimed at all those who are complaining about the metaplot, the IEs, the GDs and the good old fashioned ED references. If you want generic, why are you playing Shadowrun? Shouldn't you be falling in love with your own completely free form, player driven, bland sandbox world? Shadowrun is a world with rules and a great deal of perspective. Why wouldn't the 10,000 year old entity have levels of control and knowledge to keep a bunch of runners from offing him or her? I think the common misconception on the side of of those displeased with this is that you're not fully understanding the futile situation of a runner to begin with. Runners don't change the world, they are just the puppets. It's the puppet masters who choose to what plays to make to change the world. I mean come on. Even when dealing with the corporations, most runs are rendered futile. Yeah, your team succeeded in delivering the evil corp device to the news networks and exposed the megacorp for the horrible controlling monsters they are. Too bad all of your hard work causes no revolution and the corp doesn't fall. PR spin and counter shadowruns and corporate maneuvering render everything you did that was earthshaking completely null and void. Would you like to know which events are earth shaking? They are the ones written down in the books because they are noteworthy.

If your players want to play in a realm where their actions and decisions actually matter, you need to play a different cyberpunk game where the idea of behind a megacorp is that it is a bloated and lethargic bureaucratic monolith that while it has influences all the way down to the street, can be manipulated and avoided/twisted to your design. In Shadowrun, your actions don't matter and aren't going to be world changing unless someone or something with great power manipulated everything else for them to be. If megacorps can buy silence and control, what levels of awareness are those IEs and GDs going to have? your runners sure as hell aren't going to do something they don't want you to do. And if you cross them, you're bent over and pretty well screwed. That's the futile life of a runner. You're an errand boy, a chess piece. And maybe, just maybe, you'll be rewarded by living long enough and have a few luxuries for choosing the winning side.

Some want to play in a world where there are no gods, and everyone can die when shot enough.

And I don't really get why you'd think Shadowrun would be generic without the IEs and ED referneces. Shadowrun is much, much more than "The Complete Book of Elves, Cyberpunk edition".

Says you. I don't know about your game but the one I'm currently playing in involves the group trying to stop a large plot by demonic forces to gain control of the city by corrupting the leadership of both Lone Star and Knight Errant. These forces have been inflaming the generally chaotic conditions created by the changeover as a cover to push their agenda so they can bring more demons over without anyone with any power to stop them from noticing.
So our group, provided we don't die in the process, will be changing the leadership of both The Star and KE, killing a bunch of demons and saving the city all while running from the cops because we were framed for killing eight officers. We got a Chinese geomantic secret society, a crazy Ork ganger, and a French former GIGN hacker as our only allies and we're, in all honesty, doing quite well for ourselves so far.

So about that, "Chess pieces that won't ever change anything..." comment?

Well, Magic, and the flow of mana, dragons, critters, IEs and metaplaner horrors are what separate this game from other cyberpunk games.

Every cyberpunk game has megacorporations, chrome and the contrast of gritty street level mixed with 80s new wave flash. So what would Shadowrun be without the extra stuff that it appears users are complaining about? I mean, it'd still have its non-magic history and backstory too, but so do Deus Ex and Cyberpunk2020.

Seems to be a case of the "If you don't like ED in SR you're having badwrongfun!" mentality.

Horrors came at the Top of mana right?
that's in Shadowruns 6th world how many years away? 2000?
by the time Shadowrun hits Edition 20 with the year being 4060 or something like that, it will be shadowrun: iin spaacee! . .
and i guess horrors won't like the warp all that much

Uh, not to destroy any illusions, but you can have magic, mana, dragons, critters and metaplanar horrors - and had in SR1 - without Immortal Elves, ED etc. Why do you equate magic with IEs anyway?

One interesting metaplot I almost got started was that magic had returned because almost all of the magic was bottled up in the prison of various Horror/Cthulu-type baddies at the end of the last great magic age. This magic barrier was slowly breaking down so more, and more powerful examples, of these heebie-jeebies would be getting out unless the group could find a way to reverse the process or remake the prison.

It was a fun idea to dink around with but the other two GMs of our group decided that it was a bit on the epic side for their tastes.

I did get to use the uber-NPC, Sarah, I had made as a 9th Gate-esque nudger and potential low-end ass saver (never had to use her this way). She was really reined in power-wise (despite raising one PC from the dead after being a Shogoth snack and releasing him from "Hell" with phenomenal RPing on the player's part) and the players really enjoyed how I used her (even when she un-raised the PC at the end of the adventure).

I admit my bias, but I also pointed that out at the beginning of the thread. I wanted to know why others didn't like them. I also said I couldn't wrap my mind around the mentality of disliking these things because logically, it all makes a lot of sense to me.

@Stahseele: If the horrors returned at the top of the mana waveform, they'd only be around for a month or two, a year, a decade, or a century at most. I am sure there would be sufficient mana well before the peak that would keep them around for a while and actually make them a threat.

The point is that Shadowrun slowly went from "Cyberpunk with Fantasy pieces" to "Fantasy with Cyberpunk pieces", which was what bugged me so much I skipped the whole 3rd Ed. And I like Earthdawn. It's just that all the ED metaplot kills the heart of SR and makes most of what happens in the Cyberpunk age meaningless except for the secret ED references, and that's just not cool, no matter how much we all like the feeling when we uncover some cryptic reference.

And the solution for those who don't want a metaplotted, IE- or GD-affected game is so damn simple: tell your GM not to include them. Run a street-level campaign where its just the runners, the megas, and those pesky Star bastards always trying to shoot your ass.

I've been playing this game since 3rd edition came out, and not once -- not once -- have any my crews ever encountered a Horror, an Immortal Elf, one of the gee-wizz Artifacts from Dunkie's Will, a Great Dragon (Hell, any dragon, for that matter), or anything of the sort. Don't want to deal with metaplot? Don't buy the modules. So Lofwyr and Celedyr are rivals. Fine. All your players need to know is that S-K is hiring for runs against NeoNet. It's too. Fucking. Easy.

But don't go harping on about how all these grand schemes and immortal, all-powerful beings ruin the game because they don't. They give it character. They give it depth. If it's too deep for you, swim in the shallow end.

The point you miss is that I'd like a good metaplot. Sure, Any metaplot adds depth, and I can do without it. But SR has shown that they can do RA Shutdown and they ALMOST left the immortal elf bullshit out. They could have done without it, but then, it probably wouldn't have been SR to them, I don't know.
See, I like metaplot. What I don't like is some crappy Superdragon from an astral poophole to fuck up a megacorp owning an entire continent and getting away with it, because it just stinks, no matter how many people go OOOO I GOT THE SECRET HINT TO BOOK 114 PAGE 235 ITS A PLOT! I'd like more metaplots that work with the stuff Shadowrun's got exclusively, but it gets outshined by the immortal magic metasapience conspiracy every time, and that sucks. I wouldn't need Shadowrun for playing most of that.

The problem with this idea is that you don't realize that we anti-metaplot people are basically fucked either way. Ok, we ignore the metaplot stuff but now the writing for the entire affected game world is done differently from there on out. It might be subtle, but the difference will be there and now, despite us not buying the modules and trying to ignore it, we have to cowboy up and eat the changes that are brought on by this story arc we have no interest in.

Now, if they promise (pinky swears!) to not add a single piece of equipment, spells, traits, or adept abilities and furthermore swear (don't forget those pinkies!) not to change the status, affiliation, number, orientation, or implied purpose of a single predetermined character, group, corporation, country, city or other personage and/or location during the process of this story arc that "we can just ignore" so our games are completely unaffected until and including the release of another core book, then, well, I'm good to go and say they should break that puppy out despite any misgivings on my part.

Otherwise, they should just come out, tell me "BOHICA, bitch!" and do this thing without worrying about what the other side of the fanbase thinks.

Well put.

I've been playing since 1st Edition and as a GM and player I've never knowingly run into any ED crossover material. Or if I did I wasn't aware that that's what it was. I didn't even know the two were tied together until I did some digging years later. Even then I thought it was just rumor. I don't mind Earthdawn being the maybe/maybe-not "official" Fourth Age of magic in the Shadowrun universe but it hasn't changed anything in the feel of my games. Immortal Elves, Grand Dragons, and Megacorporations are all the same monolithic entities that runners struggle to, at best, survive against.

I don't understand the mentality of "If I can't kill it, I don't like it." Shadowrun isn't D&D. Unless you step outside the bounds of traditional SR, a player character is never going to rise to the level of a demigod who slays Lofwyr, Rumyo, Damien Knight and Richard Villiers, absorbs their assets, and sets up a personal sex-pad with Sally Tsung and Nadja Daviar (brown nipples and all) on a Hawaiian island that he conquers with his personal aircraft carrier. That's not how the mechanics of the game are set up.

PS: That's a Mary-Sue.

So what? There are dozens of Changes going on without you even have a connection to the reason of these changes. Imho people who don't like the metaplot but can't ignore it are just searching for something to rant about. Sorry, but what important things have happend that forced you to even MENTION this metaplot? Most people in 2070 don't know anything concerning this metaplot.

And sorry: It's impossible to write a campaign, backstory or something like that without people starting to complain about it. Face it: People LOVE to complain and they will always find something to complain about.

If you never really encounter the IEs, then you can leave them out, right? Why include them if they're not used in game? Anyone can think them into the setting if they wish - and oh boy, do some fanboys wish them.

And the mentality that everythung can be killed is what separates Shadowrun from D&D. We don't have gods walking the earth.

You can do changes and metaplot without pulling out the trite elven uber-NPCs. Woudl you accept some "and a giant carebear came down from the sky, and changed Seattle into happy land" metaplot too?

Someone else in this thread stated it pretty damn near perfect. You only survive the machinations of the godlings because you're so worthless as to be beneath their notice or waste the micro-second it would take to erase you from existence. You survive the machinations of the megacorporations and governments because you're just that damn good. There's a huge difference between the two, both practically and psychologically. And your oh-so-experienced "been playing since SR3!" claim means you weren't there when it was really bad. When damn near everything in the game revolved around the godlings or the "Enemy" (nudge nudge, wink wink, such a subtle reference!) in damn near every published book.

As previously mentioned: Occasionally referencing such beings and hinting at other things? Awesome. Drowning you in the designer's pet uber characters and former PCs-who-are-now-Gods-amongst-mortals? Not so much.

Yes, you can ignore it and carry on normally. But it doesn't remove the fact that they were overbearing and nearly everything in the Sixth World and Fifth World revolved around them. For example, just off the top of my head, Leonardo da Vinci, Richard the Lion-Hearted, Marie Antoinette, and Napoleon were all strongly hinted at as being immortal elves with even more implications to pretty much any and all historical figures of note. Hell, I seem to remember something about the damn holocaust having to do with them. It was belittling, embarrassing, and more often than not, just plain bad.

Metaplots don't need godlings, and they certainly don't need them to be rich and fascinating.

I'd gladly take a game world where a dragon was assassinated by the use of a tactical nuke over one who only died because he wanted to so he could bind with a cyberzombie to save humanity from the forces of evil for all eternity. The former actually, you know, adds to the world AND the game. The latter just makes one roll their eyes.

Yep.Notice how no one posts about the ordo maximus being stupid and game wrecking? No one gets angry at other cabals of mages? Or about bug spirits and other magic threats being over done?

That's because those elements do not strike you in the face with plot protection, and - unless you live in chicago - can decide how much of a role they play. They are one element of many shaping Shadowrun's World.

I just hope the Devs stay smart and keep the IEs' presence down to that degree, and don't repeat the "the earth revolves around the IEs!" "plot" from 2E.

Never read or used Harlequinn and Harlequinn's Back I take it. Or Dragons of the Sixth World, or any of the other numerous books revolving around them.

Or the entire Leonardo plot, casually mentioning that the biggest advances for matrix tech and computers was the work of an IE. And later we hear that Damien Knight was helped by Dunkelzahn, another human achievement reduced.

I read, played and GMed both But that still doesn't answer the question... If you don't like it, don't play it. What parts of Harlequinn or H's Back were you forced to even mention if you're not playing them? You were perfectly able to ignore them... So two stupid elves fought a even stupider duell and the world wasn't invaded by Horrors? Johnny Street-Level-Ganger doesn't know or even care about it.
Dunki was assassinated, probably magically? Things happen... Why does Johnny ever need to mention that this had something to do with Horrors? And who cares, where the Matrix-Tech came from? If you want to ignore it, simply assume that Matrix-Tech was invented totaly normally.

(Btw: I tend to ignore most novels as much as possible, as they tend to contain to much BS - yes, the world was not invaded by Horrors, but please let's try to avoid talking about certain drakes, etc. )

In other news, Immortal Elves and Great Dragons spent ten thousand years wiping their asses with leaves until some plucky human invented toilet paper.

Nah. If it were written by the same people, it would have been revealed that Alachia (as some uber-powerful historical figure of note from the 14th-ish century) got tired of being reminded about the thorns everytime she wiped her ass with a pointy leaf that she whispered the idea into Mr. Inventor's head. And then used its creation as a snub towards [insert other IE here] and the resulting riches to help orchestrate her future plots.

Why should that stuff be put into sourcebooks then? One can keep it as rumors, and everyone is happy. There's no need to mention IEs in sourcebooks as facts.

Actually, by definition, adding to the game would be the more complex reason, not only giving more backstory, but more character development and insight into the situation. The nuke would be detracting not only from the world, but the game play as well because insecure players who want to kill everything now all of the sudden find ways to acquire nukes and kill Dragons with them.

Oh, and as far as not wanting the world to change? What kind of boring game do you want to run where nothing happens and changes in the world around you? If, you want to run a game where everything stays the same for the sake of letting the players change things on their own, isn't that by proxy more or less the same kind of group that would ignore future sourcebooks because the conflict with what you've done in your world? Why would you even care what the devs write about then?

This echoes my dislike of the old WoD line. Vampires - and sometimes other supernatural creatures - were the guiding hand for all of humanities achievements. To do the same with IEs doesn't add to the setting in my eyes, it cheapens it.

The Earthdawn metaplot doesn't bother me, mostly because it's so easily ignored. It doesn't have a huge impact on what the players do, so it's pretty easy to edit it out of your games if you want.

Unless, you know, they went into who was responsible for the assassination attempt, the reasons behind it, the planning required for it, the methods of acquiring a tactical nuke at all, the difficulties in getting one into a major UCAS city undetected, the extreme difficulties of planting on under a presidental-elect's limo, and so on and so forth. Then you'd have the actual fall-out from the situation as the other great dragons got a dose of "oh fuck, these mortal can kill us" and their reactions to such a situation. Including but not limited to them hiring shadowrunners to find out who was responsible and how they did it. A more plausible will would have been a fascinating contribution to the game as well. And all of it could have and most likely would have involved shadowrunners to one degree or another. Hence adding to the game as well as the world.

But no, we just got some stupid Mary Sue wankfest and unquestioned decrees from a godling instead.

And why should any GM bring their players into the assassination if they want to ignore the metaplot? That's like hating Mickey Mouse and going to Disneyworld for a vacation...

Are you really that dense?

Most of the people who hate the metaplot hate it because of the way the dragons and elves were presented, not because there was a metaplot.

As far as I know, ASIST was still invented by a human, without any assistance by immortal elves or great dragons.

And, the immortal elves and great dragons are similar to a really powerful NPC in any GM's campaign. It's more of a plot device to move the setting forward rather than a serious character in the world.

Because, you know, the election campaign might be an important event in the campaign?

That's part of the problem: Too much was spoiled by having it become the IE's playground, instead of some original, creative idea/plot. And too much built upon those antics.

Alright, just a check on the state of things right now. It seems that most of the complaints are with Harlequin and Dunkelzahn's death and Will. These seem to be the biggest ones. Am I right with this?

Such NPCs are commonly seen as harming games and settings. See Forgotten Realms for references. Shadowrun is in the comfortable position to have dozens of entities to move the setting ahead - in the modern world, we do not need godlings to change the world.

Please tell me hat is there in D&D that PC can't kill.


No only reason that you survive the megacorps is the fact that you a little shadowrunner are not worth the effort to kill, if megacorps want you dead you die.

That was a major contributor, yes. So far SR4 has been doing it right and I have confidence that they'll stick to the route they're on. Especially since (despite the power-upping of recent sourcebooks) they're trying to keep things focused on a more street-level game.

For me, the biggest problem is that, contrary to the other threats, the IEs and their metaplot are too wide-spread, touch too much stuff, are individually too powerful to the point of being DM pets, and most importantly are presented far too much as facts in sourcebooks, and not rumors and options.

Not necessarily, and especially not to the player character's mind. You can go escape a megacorp's goon squad, you can go into hiding and stay off the radar, and you can be forgotten. When facing immortal elves and dragons who hold grudges that last for eons and who can, with a blink of an eye, disintegrate you on the spot... the only reason you survive is because they will it so. As stated, there's a huge difference between the two, especially psychologically.

Ao. No stats, no way to kill it.

Guess what has no stats in Shadowrun? Right in one, IEs.

Since there's nothing in Shadowrun that you can't kill, so your players could always go after one of the Great Dragons. That was the thing with D&D, any monster or NPC that had stats, someone would make a character or party that was capable of killing it, no matter how high powered the stats were. So go ahead and run a game where your players assassinate Great Dragons or Immortal Elves.

I just assumed that IE's have the same stats as regular elves, they just don't die of natural causes. So of course, the ones that live to be 4,000 years old are going to have acquired a hell of a lot of Karma and are going to have some wicked skills, but that just means anyone who wants to kill one needs a bigger gun.

And it's just not fun for many to be faced with DM pets and mary sues. The corps are huge, and almost all-powerful, but they are made up of countless individual people and machines and locations. That's a far cry from meeting gods.

Any runner who thinks that the only reason she's still alive isn't the fact that for the megacorps it mostly isn't worth the trouple to have you killed, is deluding herself.