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Guru Nath Butterfly
This is for a 400 point game, try not to go porno (higher than 16dice in anything) I just want versatility and tactical options in skills and gear, bio, cyber, what have you. Sniper rifle and a machine gun that fires around corners are a must (* I could buy one of those today people, don't let me down*) My group has two mages and two Adepts so NO MAGIC.

Apologies if this repeats any thread, I didn't check all the archives but I looked for it about six pages in and simply found sniper porno chats, not a full build.

Suggestions; take it away!
crash2029
Well for solid gun skills at all ranges take Firearms skill group. To fire around corners just have a smartlinked weapon and an image link on your eye. The smartlink includes a guncam and the image link lets you use it to aim without using the sights. Alternatively you can just add a guncam by itself. I believe the guncam is in arsenal.
Guru Nath Butterfly
Just to be clear, I am talking about around the corner shots (as in firing at you accurately from 100% cover as the 'Corner Shot' model of weapons do.)

Here is a deliciously fascist website with video on what I meant. I also love the 'Simon' door breach tool for the M4 mentioned on Future Shock, any conversion or better version of that? What would it be treated as, a dumb grenade? Rocket projected harpoon? I want one!

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/sma...Corner_Shot.htm

Thanks for any help as always.
kzt
Use a Steel Lynx.
Ryu
Echo that. Fire Support Sniper => Rigger. A rigger has good shots at keeping up with the awakened chars.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Guru Nath Butterfly @ Oct 1 2008, 11:45 AM) *
Just to be clear, I am talking about around the corner shots (as in firing at you accurately from 100% cover as the 'Corner Shot' model of weapons do.)

Here is a deliciously fascist website with video on what I meant. I also love the 'Simon' door breach tool for the M4 mentioned on Future Shock, any conversion or better version of that? What would it be treated as, a dumb grenade? Rocket projected harpoon? I want one!

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/sma...Corner_Shot.htm

Thanks for any help as always.


Well, I don't know what the SR4 rulebook says about around the corner shots, but the "Corner Shot" weapon conversion never looked particularly useful to me, and as far as I know no forces are really picking it up. Plus, the corner shot is just a chassis for a pistol, so you don't really get a "machine gun" either. But as far as function goes, the guncam and smartlink are essentially the same system. But I still don't believe that the rules will allow you to shoot from 100% cover without significant penalties, if only for game balance purposes. But if you really want fire support, load up on firearm skills and see if you can get yourself an MMG, and then blast away. And as with any firearms-using character, load up on as much recoil compensation as you can.
Tarantula
Shooting from cover, -1 penalty.
Ability to shot from cover, smartlink enabled weapon w/image link to view.
Penalty for them to shoot you back? -6.
Guru Nath Butterfly
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 1 2008, 12:21 PM) *
Well, I don't know what the SR4 rulebook says about around the corner shots, but the "Corner Shot" weapon conversion never looked particularly useful to me, and as far as I know no forces are really picking it up.


The US Military has adopted 'Corner Shot' extensively for breach entry since the Israelis introduced it. I don't think they've gone as far as kitty-corner shot yet though. (if you watched the 'Future Weapons vid on the same page, you'll get the reference, if not, basically a corner shot gun with a puppet of a cute kitten on it; makes the enemy hesitate one second when they see it on a corner.

QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 1 2008, 12:21 PM) *
Plus, the corner shot is just a chassis for a pistol, so you don't really get a "machine gun" either.


This is embarassing; I can't believe this weapon hasn't been converted. It is 100% RULE. The Panzerfaust 60MM is a cornershot assault rifle with a grenade launcher, not pistol. The Chinese have perfected the art with their HD66, which is top of the market for optical interface-god only knows what the Israelis think tops their Panzerfaust. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13639_3-9835847-42.html

QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 1 2008, 12:21 PM) *
But I still don't believe that the rules will allow you to shoot from 100% cover without significant penalties, if only for game balance purposes.


I can understand attempts to keep game balance, but when the weapon is represented, it should be better than firing from partial cover, I think we can all agree on that.

QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 1 2008, 12:21 PM) *
But if you really want fire support, load up on firearm skills and see if you can get yourself an MMG, and then blast away. And as with any firearms-using character, load up on as much recoil compensation as you can.


I would get steam recoil vents on my back like Heatguy J if I could. smile.gif Thanks for your thoughts.
Guru Nath Butterfly
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 1 2008, 01:23 PM) *
Shooting from cover, -1 penalty.
Ability to shot from cover, smartlink enabled weapon w/image link to view.
Penalty for them to shoot you back? -6.


If they have a target at all, (besides grenade on the entire area) it's not a corner shot. Please tell me someone has converted this gun!!!
Tarantula
The -6 is for them to go "oh, hes around the corner" and try to hit you through the wall. If they wanted to try that. They also have to use int instead of agi, and you get the armor of the wall to your test, if they can even penetrate it to begin with.
Guru Nath Butterfly
QUOTE (kzt @ Oct 1 2008, 12:15 PM) *
Use a Steel Lynx.


Interesting, but I have no interest in Riggers. Appreciate the thought. I will look into it for my weekly game, but I am discussing my own character here.
A Sam, with what will no doubt be a big emphasis on sniping, lots of recoil suppressing cyber, and if I can get it, a corner shot weapon (SMG/Assault/MG/RG).

I know smartlinked weapons have cameras on them. I know about AR contacts. If you can target my hand, it's not a corner shot gun.

Does anyone know if this weapon was deliberately overlooked in the interest of game balance as some of the discussion here implies?
Tarantula
Again. If you have full cover, you can shoot from it, with any smartlinked gun, for a -1 penalty. Any return fire they have against you, is against full cover, as they are shooting at where they think you are THROUGH the cover. You can describe your gun however you feel like it, but thats how the rules work.
Guru Nath Butterfly
Ahh, I get it, thank you. You have reassured me (and scared me a bit, I have never seen a player take a corner shot from cover, how sad.)
Captain K
I guess it differs from game to game, but whenever bullets started flying in any game I've ever played, everybody ran for cover.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Captain K @ Oct 1 2008, 06:06 PM) *
I guess it differs from game to game, but whenever bullets started flying in any game I've ever played, everybody ran for cover.


So then with those cover rules, how does anybody hit anybody else? It seems like at that point, it'd devolve into everyone taking potshots at each other from behind cover until they get bored and give up (or drop a grenade behind said cover). And I don't recall cover being quite that advantageous in SR3. I think that in SR3 the penalty you took to shoot was the same as the penalty other people took to hit, but we may have read the rules wrong too.
kzt
What my players (and skilled security forces) would do was use their alphas to air burst HE grenades about 1 foot from your face.

This isn't WW2. In SR it's a fancy way of committing suicide. Use a Drone.
the_real_elwood
While I get it and I agree that airburst grenades are great, what that basically means is that after initial contact and a couple of shots fired, your lead-throwers aren't good for much unless there's an attached grenade launcher, and it means every encounter turns into an explosives-fest too. And I love blowing stuff up as much as the next guy, but I'd houserule more of a penalty to firing from behind 100% cover, even if you do have a guncam and image link. I know it's not the RAW, but I have no problem with that.
kzt
Grenade launchers are extremely non-subtle and non-selective This is a VERY BAD THING. But when someone opens up on you with a machine gun the time for subtlety, stealth and worrying about damaged furniture is over.

We actually used grenades pretty rarely. Our preferred approach was convince the security guards help us get in. Coveralls, a clever hacker and a van logo go a long way.
CoyoteNZ
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 2 2008, 02:48 PM) *
It seems like at that point, it'd devolve into everyone taking potshots at each other from behind cover until they get bored and give up (or drop a grenade behind said cover).



Actually no.

For security forces, this is very good, as they can hide, take potshots from strong intentionally built cover, and wait for their reinforcements to showup

For the shadowrunners, this is very bad, as the longer they take to breach a location, the more time there is for reinforcements to show up and surround them. Because of this, normally it means the shadowrunners have failed and have to retreat, or they have to go ballistic, take a few shots storming the cover so as to not get overrun.

It sucks being the attacking force, you normally have to storm a posistion well defended against you.

The defender normally can wait in a good position and have backup arrive.

Or are I just being to mean?

Max,
Dunedin, NZ
BullZeye
I bet that char will earn lots of respect from his team mates: "Where's our fire support? Oh, there, you can see his barrel behind the corner." For giving support, one usually needs to see things from distance and thus have a good overview of the situation. The way I understand the smartlink, it gives you a 1m x 1m image of whatever the gun is pointing at. So in order to notice stuff with it, I'd say -+0 if the object is directly where you are looking (like keeping an eye on one single door/window and -10DP for everything else, assuming you do move the gun around. For the corner shot weapon platform, I don't think it can that well hold guns bigger than a pistol. Yes, I saw the AK74 variant of it, but when you have recoil in a 45 degree angle, I don't think it's that easily contained, thus I'd give it double recoil penalty BEFORE compensation. If you hold a gun out with your hands, you got at least a chance to hold the bull by it's horns and not try to hold just the tail wink.gif

Shooting mini target is a -4 penalty, so shooting at the visible part of the gun isn't that hard according to Arsenal p161. And again you have the disadvantage of very limited LOS.

And besides, what kind of fire support guy goes to places where he has to use such a system? smile.gif
ElFenrir
As for lots of cool recoil supressing cyber- a pair of strong cyberarms(which are awesome now), and gyro-mount should fit your needs. You can a 7 strength rather easily for some recoil, plus the gyro-mounts. You could get a higher strength too, with Restricted Gear, or just playing an ork or something. (I forget the availability for a pair of Strength 9 cyberarms.)
Shiloh
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 1 2008, 09:21 PM) *
But if you really want fire support, load up on firearm skills and see if you can get yourself an MMG...


And have no applicable skill... smile.gif MMGs are Heavy weapons, no?
Ryu
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 2 2008, 06:08 AM) *
While I get it and I agree that airburst grenades are great, what that basically means is that after initial contact and a couple of shots fired, your lead-throwers aren't good for much unless there's an attached grenade launcher, and it means every encounter turns into an explosives-fest too. And I love blowing stuff up as much as the next guy, but I'd houserule more of a penalty to firing from behind 100% cover, even if you do have a guncam and image link. I know it's not the RAW, but I have no problem with that.


Full cover is only worth as much as it provides additional armor dice. The -6 penalty for hitting something behind cover is well compensated for by the inability of the target to see the attack coming. Then you can always maneuver so that the opponents cover is worthless. Grenades are one, but not the only answer.

To the OP: You should provide a skeleton build for what you want.
toturi
QUOTE (CoyoteNZ @ Oct 2 2008, 01:12 PM) *
Actually no.

For security forces, this is very good, as they can hide, take potshots from strong intentionally built cover, and wait for their reinforcements to showup

For the shadowrunners, this is very bad, as the longer they take to breach a location, the more time there is for reinforcements to show up and surround them. Because of this, normally it means the shadowrunners have failed and have to retreat, or they have to go ballistic, take a few shots storming the cover so as to not get overrun.

It sucks being the attacking force, you normally have to storm a posistion well defended against you.

The defender normally can wait in a good position and have backup arrive.

Or are I just being to mean?

Max,
Dunedin, NZ

It can cut both ways. A good runner team can make situation work for them instead of the sec force.
Chrysalis
Usually sniper situations devolve because of close air-support. Three large UAVs with rocket casettes and 20mm machineguns make for swiss cheese of the building and the sniper.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Ryu @ Oct 2 2008, 04:08 AM) *
Full cover is only worth as much as it provides additional armor dice. The -6 penalty for hitting something behind cover is well compensated for by the inability of the target to see the attack coming. Then you can always maneuver so that the opponents cover is worthless. Grenades are one, but not the only answer.

To the OP: You should provide a skeleton build for what you want.


It also takes away that shooters twinked out Agi, and makes them use a common sam dump stat of int instead. Just that alone can drop their attack pool by far more than 6.

Also, if they can't penetrate the cover, you have nothing to worry about. Even if they can, you're likely going to take small amounts of stun from it at worst.
Ryu
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 2 2008, 04:51 PM) *
It also takes away that shooters twinked out Agi, and makes them use a common sam dump stat of int instead. Just that alone can drop their attack pool by far more than 6.

Also, if they can't penetrate the cover, you have nothing to worry about. Even if they can, you're likely going to take small amounts of stun from it at worst.


Good samurai should loose about 9 dice altogether, yes. The target exchanges reaction into armor dice, forgoing the chance of evading the attack. Since samurai DVs are usually not very nice, you want that exchange only if you get many more dice for your damage resistance test. Else the smaller partial cover penalty for the opponent and a chance to evade completely are the better bet.

IMO the best practice for the attacking samurai is having a high-end radar sensor for information-guided indirect fire. "You can not hide, you can only run."
Tarantula
Nothing says that you can't still use your reaction to dodge. You can see them attacking, you are not surprised, you should get a reaction roll on top of everything else.
Ryu
How can you see them attacking?
Tarantula
Via your guncam that you're shooting at them with.
crash2029
Well if your team is behind cover and the sec squad is behind cover in the rather close quarter environs of urban areas, why not have one team member provide supression fire while the melee dude rushes them. He can take the fight to melee thus negating their guns. Additionally most melee guys make most corpsec look like crosseyed stormtroopers.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 1 2008, 01:23 PM) *
Shooting from cover, -1 penalty.
Ability to shot from cover, smartlink enabled weapon w/image link to view.
Penalty for them to shoot you back? -6.


Unless they eat the -4 to blow your hand off instead. Another good one would be to simply shoot the weapon itself in this instance because their gun exploding in their face might do the job for you.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Oct 2 2008, 05:47 AM) *
Usually sniper situations devolve because of close air-support. Three large UAVs with rocket casettes and 20mm machineguns make for swiss cheese of the building and the sniper.


Of course, soldiers and military forces in general don't worry about lawsuits and corporate liability in a war zone, either. I can assure you that having a CorpSec unit blowing out an entire occupied building for one sniper would be the last order that particular operative would ever make while drawing a paycheck from the same employer.
Tarantula
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Oct 2 2008, 02:37 PM) *
Unless they eat the -4 to blow your hand off instead. Another good one would be to simply shoot the weapon itself in this instance because their gun exploding in their face might do the job for you.


I'd argue that just by peaking the barrel out you can aim and fire, and your hand wouldn't be exposed. Sure, they could eat a -4 to called shot at your gun/(hand if the GM says its availible) but they'd suck the -4 partial cover the gun/hand has too, for a -8 to shoot it.
Chrysalis
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Oct 2 2008, 11:42 PM) *
Of course, soldiers and military forces in general don't worry about lawsuits and corporate liability in a war zone, either. I can assure you that having a CorpSec unit blowing out an entire occupied building for one sniper would be the last order that particular operative would ever make while drawing a paycheck from the same employer.


Shadowrunners don't have to worry about lawsuits or corporate liability either.
kzt
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Oct 2 2008, 01:42 PM) *
I can assure you that having a CorpSec unit blowing out an entire occupied building for one sniper would be the last order that particular operative would ever make while drawing a paycheck from the same employer.

Remember Ares and the Cermak hive? SR security forces are not mall rentacops.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 2 2008, 02:49 PM) *
I'd argue that just by peaking the barrel out you can aim and fire, and your hand wouldn't be exposed. Sure, they could eat a -4 to called shot at your gun/(hand if the GM says its availible) but they'd suck the -4 partial cover the gun/hand has too, for a -8 to shoot it.


If it's a -4 penalty to shoot a small target, then can that same small target benefit from cover? And the way guns are designed, it's pretty hard to peek the barrel out and not have a fairly significant portion of the gun/your hands exposed. Think about shooting a pistol over a barrier, to do that you've got to have pretty much everything but the grip exposed. And if you're going to force people to shoot at the gun because people are firing from behind cover, then you pretty much have to make a shot that actually hits the gun break it, effectively knocking the user out of the firefight.
Tarantula
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 2 2008, 04:42 PM) *
If it's a -4 penalty to shoot a small target, then can that same small target benefit from cover? And the way guns are designed, it's pretty hard to peek the barrel out and not have a fairly significant portion of the gun/your hands exposed. Think about shooting a pistol over a barrier, to do that you've got to have pretty much everything but the grip exposed. And if you're going to force people to shoot at the gun because people are firing from behind cover, then you pretty much have to make a shot that actually hits the gun break it, effectively knocking the user out of the firefight.

Gee, and where on a pistol is your hand?


Uhh, no, you don't. Guns are fairly sturdy things. Eyeballing things, I'd probably give them a barrier of reinforced material. Just because they're typically built rather solidly. If you can do enough damage to break then gun, then sure, there you go. Or, according to the called shot examples, you could just make them drop it.
the_real_elwood
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 2 2008, 06:50 PM) *
Gee, and where on a pistol is your hand?


Uhh, no, you don't. Guns are fairly sturdy things. Eyeballing things, I'd probably give them a barrier of reinforced material. Just because they're typically built rather solidly. If you can do enough damage to break then gun, then sure, there you go. Or, according to the called shot examples, you could just make them drop it.


Ok, so I didn't put that very well. A -4 to hit wouldn't allow you to do damage to the person holding the gun (since they're at 100% cover), but you'd be able to hit the gun. And you don't have to destroy the gun to make it stop working. It doesn't take much to do enough damage to prevent internal mechanisms from working. One hit from anything bigger than a hold-out pistol would do the trick.
Tarantula
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 2 2008, 11:04 PM) *
Ok, so I didn't put that very well. A -4 to hit wouldn't allow you to do damage to the person holding the gun (since they're at 100% cover), but you'd be able to hit the gun. And you don't have to destroy the gun to make it stop working. It doesn't take much to do enough damage to prevent internal mechanisms from working. One hit from anything bigger than a hold-out pistol would do the trick.


I severely doubt that, but I can't find anything to support or counter that. From my (admittedly limited) experience with firearms, I do think that for the most part, the bullet wouldn't do much (if any) functional damage to the gun.
psychophipps
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 2 2008, 04:50 PM) *
Uhh, no, you don't. Guns are fairly sturdy things. Eyeballing things, I'd probably give them a barrier of reinforced material. Just because they're typically built rather solidly. If you can do enough damage to break then gun, then sure, there you go. Or, according to the called shot examples, you could just make them drop it.


Most guns are pretty sturdy when they're dropped, yes. Kicked out of a perfectly stable aircraft onto a dirt field, sometimes. Hell, there is pictures of a Glock 21 being dragged behind a truck across a concrete parking lot at decent speed to be fired soon after.

The problem lies in the fact of a bullet striking one with the force of a hammer blow in an area as wide as your pinky, however. Firearms are very unforgiving about anything that pinches, warps, or otherwise compromises their ability for their moving parts to freely cycle as the weapon is discharged. In the singular exception of Russian infantry weapons (except for a pinching of their gas tubes), it's a very bad thing to attempt to discharge these weapons without all of their parts lubricated and moving freely and that is only because, unlike all other modern infantry weapons, the AK series is built much more heavily than it strictly has to be.
Tarantula
psychophipps, quote something to back you up, otherwise I'll just assume you're blowing smoke.
the_real_elwood
For a handgun, the slide has to be able to cycle on the frame or else the whole shebang won't work. For an assault rifle, the bolt has to be able to move in the carrier. There's recoil springs, gas tubes, guide rods, and all that stuff has to be working right for things to happen. And on lots of assault rifles (especially cheaper ones), the body is just stamped steel, and not necessarily particularly thick. What he's saying about the AK is partly true, though it's reliability is mostly from the rifle's notoriously low tolerances, not so much that it's overbuilt. But on something like the M16, the tolerances are a lot tighter, and it wouldn't take an extreme amount of damage to mess things up enough such that the gun wouldn't work. Plus, on the M16, plastic handguards are the only thing protecting the gas tube, and without the gas tube nothing works either.

But on topic, I just don't like the idea of shooting from behind cover with only a -1 penalty, but that's the rules, and if it works for everyone else's game, then so be it.
kigmatzomat
Ever paid attention to the thickness of the metal of a weapon when you field stripped it? Excluding the barrel, its not that thick, only 2-3mm. All it takes is a 1-2mm dimple on the slide to jam most of them. On most pistols & smgs the slide wraps around the barrel, all but gauranteeing a jammed action. The only other part to hit is the magazine. Jamming that is as good as the action.

Since pistol rounds can penetrate car doors, they can readily dimple (if not penetrate) the metal. Assault rifles can punch through 5+mm of sheet steel readily, which is probably enough to deform the barrel.

Oh, I forgot, they could hit your hand or cornershot chassis, depennding on what you're using.. last I heard hands and plastic frames fare poorly against bullets.
Tarantula
Well, to me, If you're pointing your gun at them, and they're pointing their gun at you, the bullet has only a few places it can hit your gun. It could a) go down the barrel if its a different enough calibur. b) hit the nose of the barrel, probably messing up your gun enough that it won't work. Or c) hit the side of the barrel/slide an an extremely obtuse angle.

Yes, if you hit the SIDE of the gun, it would probably stop working. But hitting it with such a glancing shot I don't think would do too terribly much to it. I would love for anyone to quote anything, even just guns not working from say, getting hit with a hammer/dropped/etc. Even some maintenance of gun stuff, something that supports what you're saying.
Sgt_Pedro
I agree that shooting a firearm will render it useless (at least until the Armorer gets his hands on it). Just give it an appropriate Armor rating (6-8B) and if it takes 1 damage then it's out until serviced, 4+ and it's completely destroyed. That's simple enough, and I'd think pretty close to accurate.
Sgt_Pedro
QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 3 2008, 11:59 AM) *
Well, to me, If you're pointing your gun at them, and they're pointing their gun at you, the bullet has only a few places it can hit your gun. It could a) go down the barrel if its a different enough calibur. b) hit the nose of the barrel, probably messing up your gun enough that it won't work. Or c) hit the side of the barrel/slide an an extremely obtuse angle.

Yes, if you hit the SIDE of the gun, it would probably stop working. But hitting it with such a glancing shot I don't think would do too terribly much to it. I would love for anyone to quote anything, even just guns not working from say, getting hit with a hammer/dropped/etc. Even some maintenance of gun stuff, something that supports what you're saying.


Shouldn't the same burden fall to you as well then? As to your point a). No. Just No. This would have a likelihood akin to winning the lottery or getting hit by lightening.
Sgt_Pedro
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Oct 3 2008, 10:52 AM) *
Most guns are pretty sturdy when they're dropped, yes. Kicked out of a perfectly stable aircraft onto a dirt field, sometimes. Hell, there is pictures of a Glock 21 being dragged behind a truck across a concrete parking lot at decent speed to be fired soon after.

The problem lies in the fact of a bullet striking one with the force of a hammer blow in an area as wide as your pinky, however. Firearms are very unforgiving about anything that pinches, warps, or otherwise compromises their ability for their moving parts to freely cycle as the weapon is discharged. In the singular exception of Russian infantry weapons (except for a pinching of their gas tubes), it's a very bad thing to attempt to discharge these weapons without all of their parts lubricated and moving freely and that is only because, unlike all other modern infantry weapons, the AK series is built much more heavily than it strictly has to be.



QUOTE (Tarantula @ Oct 3 2008, 10:55 AM) *
psychophipps, quote something to back you up, otherwise I'll just assume you're blowing smoke.


His points sound pretty good to me. The big point here is that we're talking about "simulating" reality. Firearms have moving parts. Bullets hate things. Bullets + Moving parts means something isn't going to work right. Yes, a weapon "can" get hit and still work. But for game purposes, I'd say the likelihood is easily simulated by giving the weapon an Armor rating, and a few structure points, then calling it a day.
Tarantula
I said I have tried to find things, and couldn't. If anyone could dig up anything to support that 1 bullet would disable a battle rifle/pistol/etc then I would change my arguement, and I'd assume that others would do so if I could find anything to support me.
kzt
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 3 2008, 08:31 AM) *
But on topic, I just don't like the idea of shooting from behind cover with only a -1 penalty, but that's the rules, and if it works for everyone else's game, then so be it.

I don't like the idea of the -1 penalty at all. That means if you are firing a rifle prone supported (The best possible firing position) you have less of a chance to hit than if you are standing and shooting off-hand, which is much less stable and makes shooting much harder. In my not so humble opinion, this is really stupid.
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