But they cant carry gear with them when 'porting.

Sorry, Muspellsheimr, you posted while I was typing so I didn't see your post until after mine was written, the bit about not affecting the Physical while Astral was aimed at Johny Jacks' idea of about sustaining "Turn into Light" while projecting.

As for Astral Form, I'm sorry but I agree with you, with Grounding no longer with us I don't see how a spell could "shift" from Physical to Astral without ruling that the spell instead targets the actual barrier between the two worlds in which case you've just created an Astral Gateway.

If I remember correctly, a Gateway doesn't actually transport you into the Astral either - it just forces you to Project (even if mundane), your body is still left behind.

So creating an Astral Gateway spell (as the Spirit Power / Magic Phenomena) won't do it.

Edit:
Although, maybe you could create something that not only breaks down the barriers between the two, but also temporarily merges them, thus allowing you to "physically" be present in the Astral...

To be fair, the Sixth World has seen the phenomenon, and saw it in a most spectacular way. Namely with Ghostwalker's appearance.

That is true. So, now I at least have the lore justification of it being possible, if not quite the magical theory of how.

As there is a spell that can speed your reaction time; could there be a spell that would allow you to move at near infinite speeds (read: near light speed). Under the effect of this potential spell: The reaction score of the character would reach (infinity)-1. To that characters perceptions, all of life and the world and time would seem to stop. They would then move to where ever they wish, and to all outside observers; it would appear to be teleportation.

The spell would have to give ruling to the amount of interaction the affected character would have with the surroundings. The mass of a character increasing due to their speed, not to mention the force of their footsteps; would cause incredible damage to character and their surroundings. The spell may create a "buffer" to prevent damage; so no harm, including intentional could be done.

As an interesting side note:according to the Grimore for SR1, certain spirits could make other become intangible. I can't remember the name of the ability, but it was described as a bad thing, although, it gave no hard rules, and conflicting concepts like the affected character not being able to interact with anything due to lack of substance but could still take damage.

Stopped running first ed. over that one.

No. Initiative Passes may never exceed 4 (excluding VR, which may never exceed 5). What you are talking about is effectively increasing Initiative Passes to [insert arbitrarily large number], which is very specifically forbidden.

Might I also add that Infinity - 1 is still Infinity.

Dr. Funk:

Yeah but did Ghostwalker come from the Astral or from the Metaplanes? I've tried to repress my memories of Gozillia vs Denver.

Mespellsheimr:

Aye, that was basically my thoughts, basically the spell would be creating a reverse form of Displacement Alchera from Street Magic. I mean sure natural Alchera aren't supposed to drag living beings along with them when they disappear, but we know that it was possible for the Ancients to shift their Kaers into the Astral (Although if I remember correctly doing so was a really, really, bad idea.) so why not design a spell that can do so on a smaller scale?

Of course, I really don't want to think about what kind of Blood Magic would be required to survive the drain from such a spell or the long term side-effects of merging the physical and the astral, even if for only a moment.

There are clear rules that teleportation is a no-no in SR as a SPELL...

There is no hindrance that there might be some corporation that have managed to crack the problem with technology...

But we already know what happens when some corporation manages to do that...a fly spirit enters the tleportation chamber at the same time as the test subject.

Presto - Instant Merge.

System-wise this is true. I was using fuzzy system logic to promote an idea. The "buffer" idea would negate the need for worrying about the number of IPs; so my idea was less about increasing IPs, as it is ignoring IPs. The reason I mentioned IPs at all was to give my idea a rule base to anchor my "Shadowrun Magical Theory" to. By that logic, my "teleport" spell would be a health spell.

Might I also add that your mom's face is infinity-1.

Well, you'd be on the physical when you cast it, and you'd only be sustaining it from the Astral, which so far as I know is possible. I admit it's a bit of a stretch though.


That's true, but he's talking about the speed of light, not infinity. And c-1 (in meters per second) is 299,792,457 m/s. Of course, moving at relativistic speeds like that opens up a whole new set of problems.

I wouldn't allow it because the moment you cast it "poof" you are no longer a sentiant creature and thus are unable to use Magic, which includes the ability to project.

Well, I admit that is one of the flaws in it. Might be possible with an anchored spell though.

The 'easiest' solution to teleportation is to open a rift into the astral, but the mana level is far too low for that currently, so you'd have to sacrifice dozens of people and be at a power site to even make that feasible, and on top of that there always seem to be bad things waiting to creep into the world through any such rift (the blood spirits attracted to the mass sacrifice if nothing else).

The spell in question, available for review. I feel the Drain is appropriate for the effect, and due to Free Spirits being a player option, I can justify allowing players to have this ability. What I really need is an in-game, magical theory justification of how it is possible (which, as I said before, I can do - I'm just not satisfied with it, & doubt anyone else would be).

While the duration may seem short, keep in mind that even a Force 1 casting will allow a character to travel 5 kilometers, a Force 2 casting 20km - it also has powerful defensive combat potential.




Astral Form [Manipulation]
Type: M ● Range: Touch ● Duration: S ● DV: (F/2)+5

This spell allows a character to shift their physical body onto the Astral plane. While sustained, the magician has no physical body, & follows the rules for Astral Forms (p.183, SR4). A character under the effects of this spell may remain astral for a number of Combat Turns equal to Force x Net Hits. If this time is exceeded, the character dies & their astral form dissipates.

If cast on an unwilling subject, the spell is resisted with Willpower (+ Counterspelling).
Drain:
Type
+0 ● Mana Spell
Range
-2 ● Touch
Duration
+0 ● Sustained
Manipulation Spells
+2 ● Major Change
+5 ● Ad Hoc

Actually moving some books around the other day trying to do away with the last of my cardboard storage units and finally get all of my old gaming stuff into large plastic tubs. And low and behold a yellowed folder filled with papers that looked like props from tomb raider and whats on one of those papers. My notes for Wormwoods "teleportation" spell. Including background info never retrieved by the party. It was intended to fool corporate handlers into believe the research team was making progress on a spell so they could keep there funding. It allowed the caster to "port" 10 meters per force pnt of the spell, moving from point A to point B. This was more speed spell then teleport, giving the illusion of porting. A metahuman version of the movement power. Nothing could be between the caster and the target spot and as mentioned above you retained any velocity you already had built up.

Also in this folder cyber glide wings,devestator ammo and lots of other far out first edition player creations hehe.

You can say that again. Oh, look, a nasty street sam thats going to shoot me good, let me cast this fetished force 3 astral form spell on him. 3 hits. Chances for a sam to resist that with only willpower is laughable. Sam is now astral. Now I just throw this in a sustaining focus, and forget about him, cause he'll be nothing in about 27 seconds. No body even. Just "poof". And, I can erase the signature from it in another 9 seconds. 36 seconds total for the perfect assassination spell.

That's not really much different than using a Mana Bolt on him and following it up with some sort of acid spell or flame spell to dispose of the remains.

Except for the drain, and easy of cleaning up the signature, and hits required. 1 force 3 spell requiring 3 hits, or a force 6 spell with at least 4 hits, maybe more depending on how many boxes the sam has. And then another spell to dispose of the body, which leaves physical evidence around, like an acid splatter on the pavement, or fire burns on stuff. Versus "well, he was on the camera, then he was gone, and now we can't find him".

Not to mention, if you fetish this spell, force 3 = 4 drain. Not hard to pull off at all.

A similar tactic already exists in the core game. Namely a Capsule round filled with a DMSO/Shade cocktail. Doesn't remove a body from the scene, but it effectively puts any character you want out of a combat scene and leaves their body vulnerable to do with it as you please. No sustaining or anything else required.

Uh, they could just..... go right back into their body and get right back up. Since it says they must return to their body before the duration ends.

The offensive potential of the spell is there, but less than that of other spells for the Drain value. You can get esencially the same effect for (F/2)+2 Drain - Petrify (Permanent, Touch). Combat spells are also typically far more effective for offense.

When I said defensive potential is, while you are sustaining it, you are literally immune to anything mundane, with the downside of not being able to affect anything mundane.


Fetish = +2 dice pool modifier, not -2 Drain.

Also note, it is Touch, meaning they don't simply "disappear" without an even higher Drain.

Totally missed that he had it touch. Heh, that negates a lot of what I was saying. My bad on the fetish too, was going off memory.

Still, its very powerful and stupidly so. Also, great way for a mage to negate a spirit. They're always dual natured, you run up astrally projecting touch the spirits astral body, and cast it, and poof, its not materializing anymore. Then you zoom off at astral speeds, and it can't continue whalloping your team.

In the case of a spirit, it would simply use up one of it's turns, as it has Materialize, & nothing really stops it from doing so again. Also, already being an astral being, it would not die (common sense dictates this, but perhaps I should include text to clarify it). I will also, if I feel I can reasonably justify the spells "physics", probably put in the "Willing Subjects Only", & keep the drain the same. You could still make an offensive version, but with higher drain.

& once again, about it being to powerful, Free Spirit PC's can already do this (although, admittedly, not to others - but they don't suffer a high Drain value, or risk death if remaining to long).

So? The spell should force it to be astral for the duration. And yeah, you might want to errata that to not kill spirits.


What about cyberzombies? Hellhounds? Ghouls? And all the other dual natured guys we love so much?

Assuming I do not change it to Willing Only, or you create a modified version without it, Dual Natured beings will be affected just like everything else - except Cyberzombies, because they are a bitch to affect with spells to begin with.

As for spirits, the spell gives the subject an astral form, & removes its physical form for the duration. Materializing spirits do not actually loose their astral form, & the spell does nothing to prevent something from using any of its abilities (excepting those that may only be used on the Physical plane).

You mean like how materialization is a Physical power, and can only be used on the physical plane?

You know, that part always confused me. Under that ruling, a spirit could never use Materialization, because they are always astral until they use it. If it could not be used on the astral, it could not ever be used. It makes sense that it's Physical, because it's creating a physical form, but. . .

Second that.
Both are different game systems (not that I care about that part personally).
One completely rewrote game history to suit their setting, the other retconned and contrived the game setting to suit their new setting.

Regardless both teleportation, resurrection, abiogenesis and some other things are beyond the rules of traditional Shadowrun.

That said the rules exist to be broken as Shadowrunners often prove. They can make some of the best meta-plot arcs for Shadowrunners as Ehran and Harlequin vanishing at the end of the first Harlequin campaign did.

I don't recall off hand if it was ever explicitly said, but the original idea was that Ghost Walker came out in astral form, followed by a whole lot of other spirits. GD then went and dug up his body, which had been hidden away somewhere. Then he went and played Godzilla

But of course until that's in print, it's not Canon.

he was hold captive in some sort of ancestor metaplane of suffering, where he was freed by talon whily trying to summon his old mentor whom he was in love with so he could help him with something else . . then paleman toured the astral, picked up some ghost-buddies on the fly and dug up his carcass to go zombie-godzilla on tok- denver.
it's in one of the talon novels in boston.

Teleportation: You say tomato, I say tomatermorts. Semantic arguments about the meaning of words are really foolish.

---

In any case I see no reason not to allow players to bypass conventional obstacles by unconventional means under tightly controlled circumstances. Shadowruns cannon ruling on teleportation or no. I just wouldn't makes such tools common or easily available.

Which makes me wonder. Though I have no plans to introducing Free-Spirits as PCs into my campaign, such a Free Spirit should apparently be freely able to 'teleport' via the meta-planes to nearly any location with few restrictions near instantly. Does this cause anyone balance concerns?

So Time Stop then. >.>



Chiefly among them being that you actually take longer to get there as far as everyone else is concerned.



Unless they can take the rest of the team with them, it's not a huge deal.

Here is a fun twist one could use.

Teleportation is a physical disruption of matter to energy and instantly transporting that energy to another location and re-assembling the disrupted matter into it's original form.

This could be a physical spell or a mechanical device.

But I cannot se in any way how that would affect the astral form.

Sp, go ahead, let the character create the teleportation spell or teleporter belt.

Only to discover that he is now forced out into the astral plane and must dash to his body which have been teleported to the moonbase it was designed to go to...

[cough]

Technically this is already possible in canon. A Great Form Guardian or Task Spirit can use Endowment to loan others it's Astral Form Power.

For as long as it Sustains Endowment the targets no longer possess Physical Bodies only Astral ones.

Of course now that I've told you that I'm going to have to kill you.....

Great. Someone had to mention Endowment. Probably the single worst written, most broken, and all-around ill concieved rule the game has ever known.

I don't consider teleportation to be ruled out of SR at all, it just hasn't been figured out yet.

(also Street Magic p159)
"the power of sorcery in the Sixth World does have limits. some of these limitations may be inherent in the nature of magic; others may simply be condiitons magical theorists have yet to find a way around.

Currently sorcery obeys the following limitations, which form the base-line assumptions according to which all spells in this and other Shadowrun books were created. Player and gamemasters may choose to alter or ignore any or all of these assumptions, but doing so may unbalance their game."

They flat out state that it could just be something theorists haven't found a way around yet. Tarantula's quote comes after what I've just quoted and is one of what they specifically name "assumptions" and then tell you to ignore or alter if you feel like it.

Even if that wasn't the case, I'd argue that it is forbidden in the rules for PC spell design, it could be something that the game designers don't want PCs doing but feel free to have your NPCs work for a corporation of magical being that figured it out and they can teleport all over the place.

you realize, of course, that this thread had it's last post on oktober third of 2008? O.o

Haha! Nope, hadn't noticed that. I ran a search for alchera and just clicked into this thread from the results

Ah, i see ^^
Oh well, it happens i guess . .
Wonder how many people are gonna miss that little bit of information too . .
Let's see if we have a new discussion in here going by tomorrow or not ^^
Also, what did you want to know about alcheras?

I don't mean to restart an old discussion, but I noticed some people were discussing the physics validity of teleportation. It may not be Shadowrun, and I may not be a physics grad, but teleportation on the quantum level is very much possible through the use of quantum entanglement (which also sends information faster than the speed of light, btw). Not only that, but IIRC teleportation has already been done IRL at least twice (once with a beam of light, and... not sure about this one... once with cesium atoms? Something like that).

Actually I had the impression that entanglement couldn't be used for information transfer, otherwise it would represent a pretty serious causality violation.

information appearingbefore it hs been sent?
gratulations, you found a way to cheat at lotto . .

you know, now that you mention it, I'm not sure why it is a causality violation, unless in my had I'm associating Time and SOL strongly.

It's not Causality.

You cannot alter quantum entangled particles without causing them to de-entangle.

So, there's no real way to impart any sort of information to the entangled particles. You can't alter either particle to impart information to it without de-synchronizing the pair.

All you can do is measure one of a pair of entangled particles, and measure the other one at the same time, and determine that they are, in fact, shifting quantum states simultaneously. It's scientifically interesting but there's not a whole lot of practical use.

Imagine a see-saw with either end in a different closed room. At any given time one end has a 50/50 chance of being up or down, and the other end will naturally be the opposite. However, if you touch or affect the see-saw in any way, it breaks. You can observe that one end changing state is directly linked to the other end changing state, but two guys, one in each room, wouldn't be able to use the see-saw to communicate with each other.

Here's the fun part. Just observing the particles alters them.


-karma

Wanted: Schrodinger's Cat - Dead and Alive.

A lot of this topic has become tl;dr for me, as it often does when dumpshock does it's usual thing. Nevertheless, whether or not teleportation is possible, with magic or technology or rubber tubing, let us consider this. If point-to-point instantaneous teleportation is impossible/ridiculous/upsetting, what about making wormholes? What if you made a spell which took part of the space of one location and stretched it to another, so you could step from point-to-point, not instantaneously, but a lot quicker. Much the same way as EVERY SINGLE PHYSICIST ON TV likes to bend pieces of paper to represent spacetime. (Seriously, show me a physicist who talks about spacetime and doesn't use that analogy.)

Astral Gateway?
Maybe even Movement power?

I promise I'll read what has been said before. But I think the closest thing to teleportation in SR would be a way for a magician transfer his ENTIRE body into the Astral Plane, move inside of it REALLY fast and leave the other side. Of course, the Magician would only carry his body and any focus linked to him.

Perhaps this effect would be a metamagic (with other metamagics as pre-requisite). Just my two

Does Stephen Hawking count?

And that's the Astral Gateway Spirit Power right there in effect.
Dunno if it's possible to make a quick detour via the metaplanes . .
Also, this thread is years old, and as i predickted, people still argue and post ^^

Only because it's physically impossible.