And, again, the rules under Improved Throwing Weapons do not say that the damage inflicted by using a metahuman body as a weapon is ignored. Nor does the table where it mentions the damage inflicted on a metahuman body used as a weapon is limited solely to use of them as a club.

By your logic, each and every rule in the book must be restated each and every time it comes up. For instance, a molotov cocktail doesn't have to be lit "by cannon" to start a fire when thrown. Nail Guns apparently don't have to have any ammunition. The lighter with the Hairspray and Lighter doesn't have to be lit.

I admit that both of these chapters are pretty messed up and leave a lot out, but common sense -- plus the explicit mentioning (above and beyond the norm, as in "yes, you can change the rules as you see fit, but here, you REALLY should do so and have full canonical support in doing so") that GMs should adjust the effects accordingly -- fills in the "missing" rules.

I assumed since it was in the athletics area with all the other athletics abilities it would be covered by athletics silly me for assuming a totally different skill would be in the same area of other subsets of the athletics skill. Not only is it in the atheletics part but it is surrounded by the subsets, not at the end or in a different area but in between subsets. The whole chapter is about Athletics and training for other skills, which implys if has to do with physical activity it belongs to athletics, if it has to do with trianing time or teaching a skill it is something else we are not debating.

It would most likely have an impact on my ability to throw a basketball or toss a caber, both of which fit under Throwing Weapons, neither of which fits under Athletics. So yes, it is a good argument. Throwing Weapons (Darts) and Throwing Weapons (Knives) is a different skill than just Throwing Weapons. The former are specialized uses of the skill that the character has focused the majority of their training on. The latter includes every aspect of the skill that the character has focused on -- including paying a lot more karma/putting a lot more time and effort into learning.

Athletics as a Body linked skill I feel is wrong to begin with any way it should have been a Strength linked skill.

And if throwing abilities in the wrong area talking about another skill is a way to organize things the I am glade they haven't organized the rest of the books.

I'll stand by my answer that the troll is not throwing but lifting the adept which will fall under Athletics.

And I'm whining? You have been on this post for 2 days and 107 posts crying about this. I stepped in to offer something in the book that may have calmed you people down over a retarded game that you maniacs seem to take way to seriously. It is a fucking game. Play how you want and I'll play how I want.

And Doc you are an arrogant little shit like everyone on this board says and thinks. Then you come in and bully them out of saying it or try to put a spin on it. Shut up you fucktard.

I'd rather be an "arrogant little shit" than the holier-than-thou individual who constantly goes around saying things like "...that mean shit in the real world you people need to calm down" and "shut up you fucktard" because they, acting like the "arrogant little shit" that "need[s] to calm down" they accuse others of acting, are acting exactly the same way, all the while telling everyone else to stop discussing the topic becuase -- apparently -- their opinion is the only right one regardless of the stupidity inherent to it.

But to each their own, eh?

I know I occassionally come across as the brow-beating type of debater, and while I do tend to stand by my arguments and back them up (often repeatedly as others have a tendency to graze over or misread them) and rarely change my mind unless someone shows me something that proves otherwise, at least I don't go around telling people to stop discussing the game or their point of view. If you can't defend your point of view or convince me/prove without a doubt that your argument is the correct one, that's not my fault.

I personally have no problem with modifying rules for common sense. The throwing weapons skill, however, covers all items thrown by the user. I see no incredibly wrong problem that must be modified here, it's totally canonical that throwing a basketball/baseball/volleyball/caber/metahuman bodies falls under the throwing weapons skill and not the athletics skill. (either me, Dr funk, or someone else who knows how to find the appropriate sections of the book can give the quotes again if you want)

We already know, however, that cabers are thrown using the throwing weapons skill (as they are an item thrown by the character), so how come something using the same (or an extremely similar) movement suddenly is thrown using the Athletics skill? OK: Because it's a sport, and you can specialise by sport under athletics. The problem is that everything can be classed as a sport.

Where do you draw the line? Do you allow athletics(archery) in place of projectile weapons or athletics(rifle) in plce of the other skills? No? Why, then, let athletics be used in place of throwing weapons which is the most appropriate skill for tossing something?

Hmm I wonder if it would work well to split athletics into three branches.

Or just to make these specializations available.

Athletics-body Used for all stamina type tests (holding breath, running distance, etc)
Athletics-strength Used for strength type tests (lifting, climbing, jumping, throwing heavy stuff)
Athletics-quickness Used for all agility and speed tests (balancing, running sprints, throwing light stuff)
Each linked to that attribute.

Now keep in mind this is shadowrun, not fantasy sports role playing. We don't really care about sports. We care about lifting, jumping, climbing, swimming, running, etc but we have a bit of a problem with one skill covering them all.

Eh, I hate splitting things up though. I like the idea of these being specializations through.

I wasn't saying stop discussing the topic I was saying calm down it seemed everyone was taking this topic to heart. Then you called me a whinner. The flaw in this topic is the skills are boned up and everyone has a different take on a screwed up situation. If you would have held back on the "whinner" tag I would have never called you anything. Everyone here is trying to bring the real world into the discussion and you rail me because I went against your idea of what is right. If athletics was a strength skill like I have always thought it should be nobody here would be arguing about what the troll needs or waht the adept needs.

Actually, Frag-o Delux, we would still be arguing because then Athletics would still be being used to perform tasks which other skills are more suitable for (namely throwing weapons) and there would be other arguments about how body would be more appropriate than strength for the fatigue aspect of Athletics.

Once again, Lifting isn't a function of Athletics. It's raw Strength. Climbing is, but the only aspect that would have been improved is your Strength, which affects Climbing but not Athletics. Feel free to read the rules on both Climbing and Lifting in the Shadowrun Companion. It's right after the metahuman variants.

Tossing a caber is *virtually identical* to what the troll is trying to accomplish. The differences are neglible, and offset by the adept's own Athletics test (and my suggested +2 modifier). Tossing a caber is a clear use of Throwing Weapons (but then again, so is throwing a Metahuman Body, but we like to ignore that apparently).

You even admitted that your example of Volleyball is closer to Unarmed Combat (which I can almost agree with) than Athletics but "doesn't fit" because of a weak argument, so that's right out either way. Just because it's a sport, that doesn't mean it's Athletics. Or do I need to pull out the Pistols B/R (Ares Predator) vs. Pistols (Ares Predator) example again? A specialization in a skill doesn't mean it's completely under the domain of that skill.

So basically that leaves you with no working examples of how it relates to Athletics, but leaves me with one solid, unarguable example of how it relates to Throwing Weapons. Technically two since throwing a Metahuman Body is a clear use of Throwing Weapons by canon, too. So that leaves us at 0 vs. 2.

Personally I would allow people to use athletics to enhance their lifing prowess, in the same way that it can enhance running prowess (successes against a TN of 4 increases STR instead of Quickness). The athletics skill does, after-all, cover that you are toned and trained to use your body more effectively.

I'd hardly say that volleyball is virtually identical. Firstly in volleyball you are not allowed to spend any period of time in contact with the ball (AFAIK). The idea here is not to bounce the adept up in the air.

I would allow acrobatics. It would be Quickness linked and would involve performing tasks such as cartwheels, summersaults, hand-stands, and landing well from a fall. It could probably be used to jump in place of athletics also.

From a common sense point of view, I'd say that voleyball is also closer to throwing weapons as at-least throwing weapons covers dealing with objects bouncing and the sort of ballistic trajectories achieveable from a metahuman-launched projectile. How exactly does honing your body help you understand these concepts?

Oo, I hadn't noticed that bit in Cannon Companion before. So, it is indeed canon that Athletics also represents "gymnastic and acrobatic abilities", including "tumbling, twisting and other maneuvers". That ought to prove handy...

It's not like tossing a caber at all. Cabers don't come charging up to you, and they don't help you throw them.

Like I said before, if you really want to get technical about it, since the adept is springing off the troll's hands, strictly speaking it's a projectile weapons test. (No, I'm not being overly serious here. But if you want to see how silly the technicalities get, then there you go.)

Why you people keep throwing in cabers is beyond me. Throwing a knife and tossing a caber are two completely different motions. In one (cabers), you're tossing something upwards and outwards. In the other (knives), you're throwing something away from you in a more direct path. If anything, tossing a caber should be a new skill called "Lifting" or (I'll be damned!) Strength!

Throwing requires an active grab-and-let-go methodology. With the cupping of a hand and providing an extra oomf (a lift), you are not grabbing, nor letting go. You are simply pushing.

They're as related as Decking and Cybernetics are related (both being specializations of Computers). They're as related as Pick-Pocketing and Hiding are related (both being specializations of Stealth). They're as related as Swimming and Escape Artist are related (both being specializations of Athletics). They're as related as using a Whip, Nunchuka, Three-Section Staff, and Morning Star are related (all being specializations of Whips). They're as related as using a Quarterstaff, No-Dachi, and Combat Axe are related (all being specializations of Pole Arms and Staves). They're as related as driving a Tank and driving a Jackrabbit are related (both being specializations of Cars). etc.

Skills are broad categories (outside of firearms). It's amazing how easy it is for you guys to dismiss that when it comes to this, yet expect everyone to acknowledge and accept that Athletics -- and only Athletics -- is the only skill capable of carrying for more than one basic action. It's simply and plainly ridiculous.

Throwing Weapons -- fully and without question despite your refusal to acknowledge it -- covers this action and is completely and unquestionable canonical. The troll *is* throwing the adept by the very definition of the words being used in the original post (see below). Whether or not you want to use it if it comes up in one of your games is entirely up to you. That doesn't change the fact that it *is* covered by the skill, and certainly way more than Athletics -- which has NOTHING to do with throwing whatsoever, not even as related to a sport -- does.

fling, n. to throw forcefully, impetuously, or casually.

No, you keep claiming that there's reasons why it would be covered by Athletics but nothing -- NOTHING -- in canon supports that view. None of your examples hold up, and again absolutely nothing in the rules back it up. The closest solid thing you guys could muster up was the Lifting/Throwing rules, but they have nothing to do with Athletics outside of being a physical activity.

So no, canonically, you guys have nothing to back your claims up with. You keep trying to say that you do, but that's all it you're doing -- saying it.

<simply shrugs> I don't expect or really care if anyone chooses to use Athletics in that fashion in their game. I just object to the people saying that it's even remotely canonical that Athletics covers the situation.

Who says I'm stating canoninically? I'm trying to argue what makes sense to me. You're trying to argue what canon says. There's a huge difference.

Real life: If you try to throw somebody instead of just boosting, their jump and acrobatic feat is going to be way off.

Shadowrun: If you try to throw somebody instead of just boosting, their jump and acrobatic feat are suddenly going to be perfect.

Eh? It only works "perfectly" in Shadowrun if both parties have the appropriate skills at a decent enough level to make it work flawlessly. If the troll has to default to Strength because he has no skill or training in the technique (ie, no Throwing Weapons broad skill, as opposed to a specific specialization that everyone keeps clinging to to prove why it's absurd), it's almost guaranteed to flop unless his Strength is so high he can easily score at least a single 8 on his roll. On top of that, the adept has to have a decent enough Athletics (or high enough Body where he can default with the +4 modifier) to perform the acrobatic acts on his part.

YOU guys, on the other hand, are suggesting that it should be a cake walk for someone with NO skill whatsoever, or with skill in something that has nothing to do with what's going on (ie, Athletics or god forbid Launch/Projectile Weapons). Those adhering to the Strength test are likewise making it a cinch for the action to be accomplished.

So you're saying if someone pulls the pin and hands you a grenade and you throw it, it's not Throwing Weapons but Athletics instead?

Doc: Canonically, any object launched with a spring action assisting it is part of Projectile weapons. In this case, one can argue that the gymnastics specialization of athletics is the applicable skill, simply because Projectile Weapons sounds completely off.

I mean, the listed arguments are for: Thrown weapon, even though the adept is helping out and providing a lot of the force; Athletics, even though it's a throw; and Strength, even though dexterity is required.

The big flaw with your argument is that Athletics makes the test super-easy is that this test *is* easy. I'm not very strong, but if my timing is correct, I can easily provide a step for a very heavy person. Since I don't actually have to life their full weight, or hold them up for more than a second, I can easily handle a great deal more weight than I could ordinarily lift. This isn't a difficult test for the troll, by any means. If said troll just stands there, the adept might be able to get enough of a boost without any other action on the troll's part.

That was in reference to Austere. You just posted your message before I did. And no, there is no canonical reference in 3rd Edition to throwing a basketball. The Athletics aspects of Basketball are indeed a specialization of Athletics, but ONCE AGAIN, just because a skill has a specialization, that doesn't mean that skill holds ALL ASPECTS of what that specialization represents.

So no, you have no canonical support for that claim.

Any extreme physical action: Shadowrun Third Edition p. 67.
Lifting anything that weighs under (25xSTR)kg and isn't lying on the ground: Shadowrun Third Edition p. 67; Shadowrun Companion, Revised for Shadowrun Third Edition p. 47.
Acrobatic and/or gymnastic actions: Cannon Companion p. 97.

I see nothing in any of those quotes relating to any of the aforementioned activities, and even though you keep claiming that it's so, the rules for Lifting and Throwing are not covered by Athletics. Nor does the Acrobatics specializatin of Athletics include anything beyond the Athletics aspects of Acrobatics.

Not a single one of your examples comes even remotely close to a canonical case for throwing a metahuman body, let alone using a baseball bat or a baseball.

Fuck it. Think whatever the hell you want. You win. Be fucking stupid for all I care.

If any check is to be made for precisely projecting a metahuman body, using muscle power, then throwing weapons is the appropriate skill. This has canon basis in the CC P14 where a Metahuman body is thrown using the Throwing weapons skill, and in the main book where it states that the throwing weapons skill is used for all items thrown by the character.

As for catching the adept: Throwing weapons covers the use of any items thown by the user. If it allows you to set timers, pull pins, ready some shiruken, then it seems approptiate to let a character with the skill perform the actions nessecary to throw a willing body (namely catch them).

As for Zazen's point about clubs/throwing weapons not covering every possibility: Sure, but where do you going to draw the line? Do you allow people to shoot rifles using the athletics skill, but say that someone with an excellent rifles skill is bad at shooting rifles under tournament conditions? Does it not seem appropriate to let athletics cover sports up-to the point that it starts intruding on a skill area more appropriately covered by another skill (IE: clubs/throwing weapons). This seems to be what happens in the Pistols/Pistols B/R case anyway.

Giving the character a leg-up over the fence would be either a case of a strength check, or no check at all. I believe that we agree on this. The original post, however, described tossing the character. This, by Doc's Dictionary-Fu, means throwing. If you can find some dictionary definition where flinging cannot mean throwing then I'd suggest you post a link to it. On www.dictionary.com one of fling's definitions is To throw with violence.

By a bit of my own Dictionary-Fu (again on www.dictionary.com): the most appropriate meaning of throw is To propel through the air with a motion of the hand or arm. In-fact Throw in this dictionary has a direct link to fling as one of throw's other definitions is To hurl or fling with great force or speed. We thus find that throwing is not an inappropriate desctiption of the action we are attemting to perform as it places no restriction that the object must be grasped or stationary. In-fact this description is even appropriate to the volleying performed in volleyball and the toss performed in caber tossing (and any throwing of metahuman bodies).

If you claim to be able to find dictionary definitions whereby fling falls under other categories (or anything saying that a fling is not a throw, or that a throw must be performed on something that is grasped or stationary) then I challenge you to find them and post the steps in detail here (preferably an online dictionary so we can all see the answers).

As-for discounting athletics and the Lift/Throw argument as a possibility: Throwing Weapons governs the use of any item thrown by the user. Unless you can somehow find something that says a fling is in no way a throw, every argument you have come up with so far is superceded by the fact that Throwing Weapons governs the skill of throwing any item.

I am assuming that the troll must attempt in some way to fling the adept with some form of accuracy.