Full Version: Athletics stunts
| QUOTE |
| Throwing Weapons governs the use of any item thrown by the user. Unless you can somehow find something that says a fling is in no way a throw, every argument you have come up with so far is superceded by the fact that Throwing Weapons governs the skill of throwing any item. |
That also works the other way around:
Athletics governs any extreme physical activity. Unless you can somehow find something that says a boosting/flinging/throwing a metahuman over a fence is in no way an extreme physical activity, every argument you have come up with so far is superceded by the fact that Athletics governs the skill of any extreme physical activity.
| QUOTE |
| Does it not seem appropriate to let athletics cover sports up-to the point that it starts intruding on a skill area more appropriately covered by another skill[?] |
No one is refuting this. I'm sure everyone agrees that e.g. boxing or skeet shooting would be most interesting in skills other than Athletics. Point is, there's no canon way to determine the canon limit of "appropriately covered" so that it couldn't be argued against.
| QUOTE |
| If this is true, then Clubs need not hold all possible uses of a baseball bat. Likewise Throwing Weapons need not hold all aspects of throwing metahumans or baseballs. |
This is true. Not all skills have exclusive access to all activities under their purview. This happens all the time with Knowledge skills-- a character trying to pick out a nice bottle of wine to impress an extraction target could use Elven Wines, Bartending, Alcohol, or Gourmet Cooking (to choose the best wine for the meal). Similarily, someone trying to break a computer console could use Electronics B/R ("I stick my screwdriver into it and try to remove something important.") or Computer B/R ("I stick the screwdriver into it and try to remove something important.") or even Strength ("I stick the screwdriver into it and try to remove something important.")
| QUOTE |
| As an aside, I came up with a curious example. If a midget suddenly jumped on the trolls shoulders from above and he tried to buck the little bastard off of his back, what skill would he use? |
Probably Unarmed Combat.
It is possible that this over-debated event is one that can be covered directly by two skills. Overlap is usually seen between knowledge skills, but there are fuzzy regions between a few other skill combos.
[edit]Apparently I agree with Cain, although I hadn't read his post when I made this one.[/edit]
[edit]Apparently I agree with Cain, although I hadn't read his post when I made this one.[/edit]
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| It is possible that this over-debated event is one that can be covered directly by two skills. Overlap is usually seen between knowledge skills, but there are fuzzy regions between a few other skill combos. |
I luv you!
| QUOTE (Cain) |
| This is true. Not all skills have exclusive access to all activities under their purview. This happens all the time with Knowledge skills-- a character trying to pick out a nice bottle of wine to impress an extraction target could use Elven Wines, Bartending, Alcohol, or Gourmet Cooking (to choose the best wine for the meal). Similarily, someone trying to break a computer console could use Electronics B/R ("I stick my screwdriver into it and try to remove something important.") or Computer B/R ("I stick the screwdriver into it and try to remove something important.") or even Strength ("I stick the screwdriver into it and try to remove something important.") |
You forgot Armed Combat.
"I stab the screwdriver into the computer repeatedly after removing it from all sources of electricity."
| QUOTE |
| That also works the other way around: Athletics governs any extreme physical activity. Unless you can somehow find something that says a boosting/flinging/throwing a metahuman over a fence is in no way an extreme physical activity, every argument you have come up with so far is superceded by the fact that Athletics governs the skill of any extreme physical activity. |
The athletics skill governs nothing. It reflects training and honing of the body. Firstly there is the fact that governing means To exercise sovereign authority in., soverign meaning One that exercises supreme, permanent authority. IE: The description of throwing weapons is more definite.
Secondly, we are talking about a (reasonably strong) troll flinging a willing adept up into the air here. That could be compared to a (reasonably strong) human flinging an average 5-6 year old child into the air (by the comparative weights from this site). This would not be an extreme physical activity IMHO.
I accept that skills can overlap, but the description of the throwing weapons skill effectively states that it has supreme authority when it comes to throwing any item.
A metahuman technically isn't an item... An item is usually something that can be held in one hand easily.
And don't go off spouting how Trolls are X Strong and can easily lift Y Weight which happens to be the Adept, because you know that isn't what I'm talking about.
And don't go off spouting how Trolls are X Strong and can easily lift Y Weight which happens to be the Adept, because you know that isn't what I'm talking about.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| A metahuman technically isn't an item... An item is usually something that can be held in one hand easily. And don't go off spouting how Trolls are X Strong and can easily lift Y Weight which happens to be the Adept, because you know that isn't what I'm talking about. |
That was in response to AE's post where he tried to turn my words back around on me.
Also P14, CC describes how a number of common items can be thrown, and in the list it mentions metahuman bodies. Is that good enough to say that a body is an item?
It should more be a list of things that can be thrown.
Besides, isn't it limited? I mean, kind of hard for a Human to throw a Troll, even with Throwing Weapons/Metahumans 5/7.
Besides, isn't it limited? I mean, kind of hard for a Human to throw a Troll, even with Throwing Weapons/Metahumans 5/7.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| I accept that skills can overlap, but the description of the throwing weapons skill effectively states that it has supreme authority when it comes to throwing any item. |
But it doesn't when, for example, I throw you using Aikido. There are times when other skills take precedence, and there is no reason why Athletics cannot do so as well when performing obviously acrobatic maneuvers.
| QUOTE |
| The athletics skill governs nothing. It reflects training and honing of the body. Firstly there is the fact that governing means To exercise sovereign authority in., soverign meaning One that exercises supreme, permanent authority. IE: The description of throwing weapons is more definite. |
No need to go through every word with a dictionary, or even give the dictionary meanings of every word if you know them by heart.
But, by that same definition, Throwing skill certainly does not govern "the use of any item thrown by the user", because it has no priority over other skills that might do the same thing, including (but not neccessarily limited to) Athletics specifically in this case. If something counts as "extreme physical activity" and "item thrown", Athletics and Throwing Weapons have as much claim to it.
| QUOTE |
| Secondly, we are talking about a (reasonably strong) troll flinging a willing adept up into the air here. That could be compared to a (reasonably strong) human flinging an average 5-6 year old child into the air (by the comparative weights from this site). This would not be an extreme physical activity IMHO. |
If the goal of this action was only to get the adept airborne, it wouldn't be nearly as "extreme", and no test would be required anyway -- most of us agree on this, although someone might go for a Strength test there. But the goal is to catch the foot of the running adept, then toss him over a fence, making sure the boost phase isn't too abrupt.
| QUOTE |
| I accept that skills can overlap, but the description of the throwing weapons skill effectively states that it has supreme authority when it comes to throwing any item. |
What are the superior skills in other cases of possible overlapping by skill description (e.g. swimming fast just below the surface to retain visibility underwater) then? Is it always so that, regardless of any other argument, there is always one skill that has "supreme authority" over everything it says it can do in the skill description, while others are "inferior" skills?
@Tanka: It is limited with a strength minimum equal to the body of the character you are trying to throw.
@Zazen: You can throw something without making any test whatsoever (lifting/throwing, P47, SRComp). Throwing is easy, the throwing weapons skill lets you do it accurately though. What I would apply in my own games would be that if you wanted to martial-arts throw one person at/in something/someone/somewhere then the throwing weapons skill would be rolled to determine how accurate you were (and possibly to stage damage). If you didn't want to direct them anywhere in particular then you don't need to roll.
@Zazen: You can throw something without making any test whatsoever (lifting/throwing, P47, SRComp). Throwing is easy, the throwing weapons skill lets you do it accurately though. What I would apply in my own games would be that if you wanted to martial-arts throw one person at/in something/someone/somewhere then the throwing weapons skill would be rolled to determine how accurate you were (and possibly to stage damage). If you didn't want to direct them anywhere in particular then you don't need to roll.
@AE: Supreme is not a word that goes on a scale, it means that the probability that the Throwing Weapons skill should be applied to tests for throwing items is 1 meaning that the chance of applying any other skill to throwing an item must be 0. Of course we're not truly talking about probabilities here but you get the picture.
| QUOTE (AE) |
| If the goal of this action was only to get the adept airborne, it wouldn't be nearly as "extreme", and no test would be required anyway -- most of us agree on this, although someone might go for a Strength test there. But the goal is to catch the foot of the running adept, then toss him over a fence, making sure the boost phase isn't too abrupt. |
Of course the goal is to catch the foot and toss him over the fence accurately. I'd apply that as readying a weapon (catching the boot) and throwing the weapon. If you just let the athletics skill do everything extreme then people could have insanely high athletics skills and just ensure they were performing cartwheels or running up walls as they shot people because then they could shoot using their athletics skill rather than their pistols skill.
I'm not sure what you're talking about in your last point AE. Is that a Diving/Athletics comparisson? I'll get back to you when I read the diving section.
[edit=read] I can't see any problem there. It states explicitly that the athletics skill may be used to increase movement speed underwater[/edit]
I'm not sure what you're talking about in your last point AE. Is that a Diving/Athletics comparisson? I'll get back to you when I read the diving section.
[edit=read] I can't see any problem there. It states explicitly that the athletics skill may be used to increase movement speed underwater[/edit]
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| What I would apply in my own games would be that if you wanted to martial-arts throw one person at/in something/someone/somewhere then the throwing weapons skill would be rolled to determine how accurate you were (and possibly to stage damage). If you didn't want to direct them anywhere in particular then you don't need to roll. |
Ahh, but that's not actually written anywhere. According to standard rules you're throwing something using a skill other than Thrown Weapons, overruling its Ultimate Soverign Authority Over All That Is Thrown.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| Ahh, but that's not actually written anywhere. According to standard rules you're throwing something using a skill other than Thrown Weapons, overruling its Ultimate Soverign Authority Over All That Is Thrown. |
The example I gave was of how I would apply the rules to a given situation. If you want to throw something, then you roll the throwing weapons skill (or possibly default to strength) but it's possible to throw something without rolling the throwing weapons skill if it dosen't particularily matter where it goes.
| QUOTE |
| Supreme is not a word that goes on a scale, it means that the probability that the Throwing Weapons skill should be applied to tests for throwing items is 1 meaning that the chance of applying any other skill to throwing an item must be 0. Of course we're not truly talking about probabilities here but you get the picture. |
In that case, Throwing Weapons cannot (canonically) be supreme in that respect, because throwing a metahuman with the Throw martial art maneuver is most certainly not a Throwing Weapons test by canon.
| QUOTE |
| Of course the goal is to catch the foot and toss him over the fence accurately. I'd apply that as readying a weapon (catching the boot) and throwing the weapon. If you just let the athletics skill do everything extreme then people could have insanely high athletics skills and just ensure they were performing cartwheels or running up walls as they shot people because then they could shoot using their athletics skill rather than their pistols skill. |
Now we're getting to the pure House Ruling/In My Games department. I won't argue with that, because I don't think anyone should be stopped from house ruling something any way they want. Especially after this long a discussion, where it's obvious that opinions have already been pretty much set in stone.
Nobody has said that they would allow firing pistols accurately with Athletics in their games. Nobody has said that they would allow anything extreme to be done with Athletics. Only that in this particular case, Athletics has as much (which is all I've been saying) or more (as some might say) claim to the action in question than Throwing Weapons.
It was indeed a Diving vs Athletics comparison. I couldn't find a section on Diving other than the brief description in SR3 p. 87, and by that swimming fast just below the surface is a very similar conflicting case to this.
| QUOTE |
| I can't see any problem there. It states explicitly that the athletics skill may be used to increase movement speed underwater. |
Where? I couldn't find it. Then what if the question was one of swimming/diving as fast as possible through an underwater obstacle course in scuba gear? Without scuba gear? No gear? Tighter and more strength/agility-requiring? Longer and more for sprinting?
I agree that it's completely canonically possible to throw something some distance without using any skill whatsoever. I also agree that strength, and the strength-linked martial art skills, allow you to increase throwing distance albeit in slightly different manners. That dosen't change the fact that if you want to propel something through the air with your hands then to do so skillfully (read accurately) takes the throwing weapons skill. Similarly anyone can theoretically shoot a pistol or throw a grenade but the pistols and throwing weapons skills are what governs doing it accurately.
For my houserule example I was merely meaning to show how it could fit into the game using standard terminology.
As I believe is obvious, I would consider the throwing weapons skill to be more appropriate for the activity the troll performs in this example. In-fact I believe that the argument put forwards initially by Dr Funk, and later supported/augmented by myself, to be a perfectly sound argument which it would be nice to see become canonical.
The reason I'm batting for the lofty goal of it being canonical is that everyone seems to see Athletics as an extremely broad, catch-all, skill. It's ridiculous that a character with Athletics 8 could seemingly play every sport at a world-class level (baseball, volleball, caber tossing, you name it) but that's how some seem to believe it works.
You could theoretically even take Athletics(snooker), snooker not really being an extreme physical activity in any way which it makes no sense to link to the body attribute. (see a previous thread on this topic)
Even worse: As many sports are designed to test skils, to see who is best, there are sports covering most quickness/strength-based skills. What sense does it make that you use one skill for doing something in a competition and another when you are on a run? Most GMs would dismiss attempts to do this but I think the most important point is that athletics stops when skills cover them already (although athletics can still help in cases where the activity involves fatigue or sprinting)
Blah. Moral(ish) highground spouted from. Do I use the spray weapons skill for that. I'm tired.
I'm reffering to the underwater activity and similar sections in the CC. P107 onwards.
For my houserule example I was merely meaning to show how it could fit into the game using standard terminology.
As I believe is obvious, I would consider the throwing weapons skill to be more appropriate for the activity the troll performs in this example. In-fact I believe that the argument put forwards initially by Dr Funk, and later supported/augmented by myself, to be a perfectly sound argument which it would be nice to see become canonical.
The reason I'm batting for the lofty goal of it being canonical is that everyone seems to see Athletics as an extremely broad, catch-all, skill. It's ridiculous that a character with Athletics 8 could seemingly play every sport at a world-class level (baseball, volleball, caber tossing, you name it) but that's how some seem to believe it works.
You could theoretically even take Athletics(snooker), snooker not really being an extreme physical activity in any way which it makes no sense to link to the body attribute. (see a previous thread on this topic)
Even worse: As many sports are designed to test skils, to see who is best, there are sports covering most quickness/strength-based skills. What sense does it make that you use one skill for doing something in a competition and another when you are on a run? Most GMs would dismiss attempts to do this but I think the most important point is that athletics stops when skills cover them already (although athletics can still help in cases where the activity involves fatigue or sprinting)
Blah. Moral(ish) highground spouted from. Do I use the spray weapons skill for that. I'm tired.
I'm reffering to the underwater activity and similar sections in the CC. P107 onwards.
| QUOTE |
| It's ridiculous that a character with Athletics 8 could seemingly play every sport at a world-class level (baseball, volleball, caber tossing, you name it) but that's how some seem to believe it works. |
Then perhaps you realize how aggravating it can be for me when people keep using the ridiculous ranged combat rules as such and not do the minor modifications I keep suggesting people do.
| QUOTE |
| The reason I'm batting for the lofty goal of it being canonical [...] |
Are you battling for it actually being the only canonical way now, or that it is one of potentially many canonical ways, or that it should be the only canonical way, or that it should be one of potentially many canonical ways?
If it is anything but the first, we can finally stop this.
| QUOTE |
| I'm tired. |
Hey, I'm 2 hours further on into the night (morning? day?) than you...
Didn't look into the CC for the diving thing. The later problem still works: Play around with the variables of how much it's about straight swimming speed and how much about skill/strength/agility, and the type of diving, and see where you draw a line.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
Are you battling for it actually being the only canonical way now, or that it is one of potentially many canonical ways, or that it should be the only canonical way, or that it should be one of potentially many canonical ways? If it is anything but the first, we can finally stop this. |
Well, I was arguing for the first but I can agree that I'm talking about a very specific situation. It's a borderline case and if the word 'boost' has been used instead of 'fling' then I would agree that athletics was a possible skill (althoug throwing weapons could possibly still be used).
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
Hey, I'm 2 hours further on into the night (morning? day?) than you... Didn't look into the CC for the diving thing. The later problem still works: Play around with the variables of how much it's about straight swimming speed and how much about skill/strength/agility, and the type of diving, and see where you draw a line. |
LOL. to be honest it dosen't even describe any usage of the diving skill now that I look at it. It uses athletics to increase running speed and nothing else. I probably need sleep.
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