I'd rather have some burly troll who can toss cabers throw me, since the move is essentially the same. Notice a theme here? Fling. Toss. Throw. Throwing. Yes, obviously all four of those words are the domain of Athletics and not Throwing Weapons. Screw the "Throwing Weapons governs the use of any item thrown by the user" description of the latter skill. It's all Athletics, baby, yeah! Only Athletics encompasses more than one basic move! In no way can Throwing Weapons include tossing an adept in this fashion AND throwing knives. But Athletics can! It encompasses all that and more! Goooooooooooooooooo Athletics!

I bow before the awesome might of Athletics and shall use it for all my characters' endeavors in the future. Why bother with any other skill? Athletics does EVERYTHING! Yay Athletics! In no way do acrobats or athletes use more than one skill (That's why Nolan Ryan is the world's fastest sprinter, right?)! That's just crazy talk! Only Shadowrunners do that (unless they're using Athletics, then it covers everything -- go figure). Everyone else uses one skill and one skill alone! Yessir. Just ask these people. <gestures to Toturi and Zazen amongst others, as Zazen seems to have trouble comprehending the generic use of the word "people">

So, just to be clear, you'd rather have a baseball pitcher do this; you'd tell circus acrobats who do this all the time yet can't throw knives to go home?

A yes or no answer will suffice, since I'm not interested in reading more unprovoked nonsense about what an idiot I am. It's just a question.

I find it amazing how somebody's opinion that is different from yours suddenly warrants an attack.

Doc, whatever made you this way (because you sure as fuck weren't before) needs to stop. You were cooler before you decided that a difference in opinion warranted a personal attack.

Hey, Doc, the thing in this case is that it requires a catch and a boost, and not just a simple fling. To make the catch would require Athletics or Strength, or possibly Quickness.

Honestly, this is one of many situations where multiple skills are equally applicable. A question on BTL sales could be equally covered by KNO: BTL distribution, KNO: Black Market, or KNO: Underworld politics. The exact answer may vary, but in every case, the character gets the needed information.

It'd be perfectly fair for a GM to say you can do this as either cooperative gymnastics (requiring Athletics tests for both) or as a thrown object (athletics for both plus Throwing weapons for the troll) or a simple timing issue (Quickness tests for both plus Athletics for the adept). Any or all of these are probably equally applicable.

I do agree that it is mostly up to an individual GM's decision, just like everything in the game. A GM is free to make any decision he likes during the course of the game. He could say it requires a Launch Weapons test if he really wants to, absurd as that is.

However, I strongly disagree that it has much to do with Athletics on the troll's part, though; the "catch" portion is more dependant upon the adept making it into the make-up stirrup than the troll "flinging" (which apparently translates to "Athletics" as opposed to "Throwing") the adept. Since we're having a discussion -- as opposed to on-the-spur GMing decision-making -- on what the appropriate course of action is, I am going to continue to disagree with the Athletics assessment. I think it's a wrong and wholly inappropriate choice for such a maneuver, having as much to do with Athletics as pulling the pin on a grenade, pulling a trigger, or turning a steering wheel has to do with Throwing Weapons, Pistols, and Cars respectively.

If you want to include Athletics for that particular action, though, I see nothing wrong with that. It'd be on par with someone tossing the troll a grenade to use or something. But when the troll goes to throw the adept, that's definitely a use of Throwing Weapons or a default to Strength test.

For frag's sake, people. No need to start fighting over this drek. Number one, it's entirely up to the GM. Number two, a frickin' human body is NOT a throwing weapon, unless you're the Incredible Hulk or something. What the adept is doing is clearly ATHLETIC, and I would have to agree what the troll is doing would be covered by also. Take this for example. Cheerleaders at a football game are going to fling one of the cheerleaders into the air or whatever the hell they do. Well, the cheerleader going up in the air obviously has to have some sort of ATHLETIC talent, meanwhile, the cheerleader who is acting as her base, by your example., would be skilled in Throwing Weapons? I'm raising the bullshit flag on that one. I haven't known one cheerleader who was skilled in throwing weapons. Well, maybe Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but that's it. But we can simplify this, chummers. Troll makes a Strength test to make sure he doesn't launch the adept too high, then a quickness test to time it right. Then, the adept makes a Quickness roll (once again, to time it in sync with the troll), then an Athletics or Acrobatics test to complete the jump. It's not rocket science.

Doc, have you ever actually tried to "fling" somebody over a fence?

Now, on to the old point. Athletics isn't limited to things like Running and the like. You can specialize to have Athletics (Baseball) or somesuch, which means that anything not baseball related, you're not going to be as good at. Let's try this.

Nolan Ryan is (arguably) the best pitcher. So let's give him the following skill.

Athletics/Baseball/Pitching: 4/6/8

He's damn good at baseball, but there are people who are generally better than he is. He's just a really damn good pitcher. Now when it comes to something outside of baseball, he ain't so good. Somebody who generalized his entire life is going to be generally better than Nolan. Except in pitching.

Honestly; throwing a baseball as a sport is nothing at all like throwing one as a weapon. In the sport, you're trying to throw fast and accurately. As a weapon, you're trying to throw hard and accurately. Note that fast and hard are not the same thing.

In all my reasoning, melee is a form of Athletics, so, therefore, can be linked to it very easily. You have to have some form of conditioning to be able to keep going after long hours of training (endurance, an Athletic test). So I guess that means with my meager skill in Edged Weapons and Unarmed Combat, I can now have that as an Athletic Skill as well.

Point is: You have to have both to be a competent martial artist. You can't just be good at your weapon of choice and have no endurance to have that 6 in Unarmed Combat that so many claim.

While I do see your point about Throwing Weapons (Metahuman Body), I also disagree. You aren't truly throwing as a weapon, you're throwing acrobatically. I would rule it to be either Throwing Weapons or Athetics with both at a +2 TN for odd usage. If you don't want the +2 TN, get a special skill for it.

Hey Doc, do you think you could tone down the sarcasm meter just a tad? No need to get insulting over such a silly topic.

Oh good lord.

Fine, ignore Shadowrun. In the real world, who would you rather do that impromptu surgery? Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel or Joe Blow the Lifeguard who's had years and years of first-hand first-aid experience and training? Only an idiot would rather have Cletus do it. Why? Because even though Joe Blow isn't a surgeon, he's picked up a thing or two over the years through the use of his first-aid, enough so that if he does have to cut a bullet out of your ass, he's likely going to be better at it than Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel would be.

And that's what specializations represent in the game system. I'm sorry that you have so much trouble trying to comprehend that, but it's true. Floozy the Acrobat never had to pick up a knife and throw it a day in his life -- in fact, he has *no training whatsoever* in doing so. But if he DID have to pick one up, chances are pretty high that he can throw it a lot better than someone who's never thrown anything -- fellow acrobats or not -- in their life.

Again, no training whatsoever, but still has the ability to do so if he needs to. It's not a tough concept. Or wait, apparently it is.

If you were in a life-and-death situation where your only way out was to have someone throw a rock (or a grenade or anything else) at some guy's skull? Nolan Ryan or Jesse Owens?

First of all, I would like to say that I have no idea how I'd rule if this situation happened in my game.

As for Doctor Funkenstein's Cletus vs Joe Surgery Challenge and Floozy the Acrobat... I don't think anyone is having a problem with understanding the Skills vs Specializations system here. It's just that your example can be used to argue the opposite idea just as easily.

Consider this. Mr Floozy has never Thrown anything in his life, has never done anything Athletic. Suddenly, he finds himself in a circus and is taught to throw metahumans in the described way. For the next 10 years, he still throws around nothing but metahumans and/or still doesn't do anything athletic but throw around metahumans.

In which area do you personally think Mr Floozy has progressed more during this 10 years: Wall-scaling or darts?

If you answer wall-scaling, use Athletics (Metahuman Throwing). If you answered darts, use Throwing Weapons (Metahuman Throwing). If you took a very long time or didn't want to make up your mind, use whatever the fuck you feel like when the situation comes up.

Consider that no-matter what skill you put it under in the shadowrun system, it will lead to people who probably shouldn't be able to do it *that* well being world-class at it. In such a case it would be best to choose the skill that is most appropriate

Personally I'm with the Doc. Caber tossing is the best similar example that anyone has managed to come up with and I'd put that squarely under throwing weapons.

The argument that someone in the circus would be better at is somewhat weins when you consider that the circus performers could have have both good athletics and throwing weapons skills.

I have never tried to fling someone over a fence, I have tried to hoist people up to crowd-surf though (and toss cabers for that matter) and I can tell you that strength is definately the most important factor. That's another reason I'd choose throwing weapons (strength linked) over athletics (body linked).

We've departed far from my original question. I want to get back to it.


I asked if it were possible for an acrobat to avoid being skilled at throwing shuriken and so forth. You have said that this is possible. You have also said that they would, in fact, be better at it due to their training.

Perhaps the confusion lies in my wording. By "avoid being skilled", I do mean "avoid being better at it due to training"! If they are better at it due to training, then they have NOT avoided being skilled. They have, on the contrary, become more skilled.


And so since I've clarified my question in as careful language as I can muster, can you also clarify your answer?

My reply was my take on the original topic of the thread, but I'll take a stab at your one too Zazen:

Only if you can make me someone who's good at throwing shiruken but couldn't toss cabers.

[edit]Or toss people but not run marathons[/edit]

OK. I missed the exact point of tour post AE, but that post isn't really that helpful.

AFAIK this is a rules discussion asking how it would be best to adjudicate a troll boosting an athelete over a wall. I think most people agree that the athelete's part is covered by Athletics but as I'm sure you know there is a debait going on as-to what the troll should roll (if anything).

As it happens there is a particular skill that does explicitly cover the situation (throwing weapons) so I don't consider a post saying "use whatever system you want" helpful.

As was pointed out earlier, the problem with Throwing Weapons is that the skill presupposes that the thrower is providing all of the motive force. When a spring action is used (and that's what the adept's leap action is) it's covered under projectile weapons.

As I said before, there is no single correct skill; there are several good ones. If the adept wants a graceful spinning flip over the fence, then Athletics (as cooperative gymnastics) would be the correct skill. If he wants the troll to go for distance, and not provide much force on his own, then perhaps Throwing weapons is more appropriate. If the only needs the troll for a small boost, basically as a stepping-stone, then Strength for the troll may be best. But if the player doesn't really care, then any or all of the above will work just fine.

I was going by the description in the initial post where the troll was tossing the adept over the fence (thus providing at-least some force input). I can't see the likeness you are drawing between the adept's leap action and the draw of a bow or sling or similar, could you elaborate if that was a serious suggestion?

I don't think the athletics skill does not covers graceful movements as you describe, athletics is not gymnastics. It covers strenuous physical activities such as contorsion, weight-lifting, long distance jumping, and marathon running. It is possible to specialise by sport, but that does not mean it gives you the ability to play the sport well (with exceptions such as those which purely involve jumping or running), just the physical endurance and toning nessecary to do so.

Well, save for the line in the core rulebook that's been quoted several times. You know, the one reading: "Throwing Weapons governs the use of any item thrown by the user."

right. just because there's rules for throwing metahumans, that doesn't mean you're actually supposed to use them, when you're throwing metahumans. a sensible line of thought!

i would, as GM, allow someone to default to Athletics in this case, even though Throwing Weapons doesn't--by the rules--default to Athletics. common sense that Throwing Weapons should default to something, because in the real world it's not all that hard to put a baseball over the plate; in Shadowrun, it's nearly impossible to get a baseball within three meters of the damn plate, unless you've invested some skill into Throwing Weapons. Athletics is the best candidate because it's a catchall "do active stuff" skill--it's not a great candidate, but there's nothing else around that's better.

You mean juggling is under Throwing Weapons?

Specialisations: By specific weapon type. Implied that said item needs be used as a weapon.

SURGE Edge: Contact Poison (Piss)

How's that for a Pissin' Good Ole Time!

Wait... isn't Piss under Spray Weapons?

Shit... yes, that'll do. Thrown shit

You guys are fucked up.

As opposed to basketball? Or cricket? Are both sports using Throwing Weapons when they throw the ball?

Can I make a stupid suggestion?

Have the troll use Athletics, because in the first part of the action the troll is lifting a heavy object trying to heave it. The troll is throwing the adept.

Then have the adept make an Athletics test for the jump, because he is doing that at the end of the action.

In the Shadowrun Companion, the chapter on skills and training, Athletics governs the ability to lift and throw heavy objects. If he wants to add distance or lift more wieght then he can use strength.

Throwing Weapons I feel covers small objects easily thrown while heavy objects such as people and cabers should be governed by the Athletics skill.

Having been on both sides of that action the throwee is just planting his foot accepting the throw from the thrower. When the thrower reaches his full extention the jumper then pushes off the throwers hands.

If the adept is using the troll as a ledge, then the adept should just use athletics to what ever it is he is doing. I figure if the troll can lift the adept Strength vs. Body then no roll is needed.

If the Troll is boosting the adept gently so the adept can just climb over. Then the troll again would just use Athletics/strength.

If the Troll is heaving the adept with out he would still use Athletics, unless you have one helluva fat adept then he would need to use strength.

Now I am not saying Athletics using Strength is a good idea seeing that Athletics is linked to Body, but the rules have pretty much covered what you are trying to do.
The troll isn't really addig to accuracy, he is adding to distance, the jumper/adept is the one aiming himself in the the initial push off and in flight contorting his body to make the right landing.

And tanka how can you throw fast but not hard. True you are aiming at a glove and not at a fatal body part, but you are still throwing something and fast always equals hard. That is why a catchers mit is three or 4 time thicker with major padding in the palm of the glove compared to an out fielders glove where the ball is caught in the basket not the palm like a catcher. Even the first basemen's glove has better padding in the palm because they to take more catches in the palm. If you look at some major legaug players they are starting to wear attachments on their helmets to protect from errand balls that have been knewn to hit people in the face and break noses or cheeks, some even have broken jaws. Now the reason why these people are not killed is because it is a blunt object, if nolan ryan was throwing knives at the catchers glove and missed hitting the batter in the neck the batter is pretty much dead.

"Dig up her bones! Dig up her bones!"

/Me dances around waving a bladder on a stick.


L:!

Well - it makes as much sense as anything here so far, apart from an honest query.

If you say so.