Picture this:
Troll with his back to a fence makes a stirrup with his hands.
Adept sprints towards troll, plants foot in the stirrup and leaps up as the troll flings the adept up and back.
Adept goes airborne, flips and lands neatly on the opposite side of the fence.
Ideas on how you'd allow your players to attempt a stunt like this?
-Siege
Full Version: Athletics stunts
Just have both characters make an Athletics test. The Adept's TN would be a little higher than the Troll's, but not by too much.
I would simply make the adept perform an Athletics test. The troll shouldn't bother testing anything - I mean how hard is it to lace your fingers together. Perhaps a strength test or something, but as we are talking about a Troll here, why bother?
Nope, simply make the Adept do a fairly difficult test for his acrobatic prowess.
Nope, simply make the Adept do a fairly difficult test for his acrobatic prowess.
The Troll has to time his throw, as well as judge the right amount of boost to give the Adept. I would make the Troll roll an Athletics test as well, but like I said, the TN wouldn't be that high.
Well if the target wasn't that high - then why bother rolling at all? Seems like sort of a waste of game time. For a moment like that, I think I would prefer to keep things fast-paced. Of course, that's just my own play style *shrug*
| QUOTE (mike_the_fish) |
| Well if the target wasn't that high - then why bother rolling at all? Seems like sort of a waste of game time. For a moment like that, I think I would prefer to keep things fast-paced. Of course, that's just my own play style *shrug* |
I could say the same thing about any roll with a low TN. "Don't bother rolling to hit, Jim. Your TN is 3, so we'll just assume you kill everyone in the room."
What if the Troll only has a skill level of 2? What if there are conditional TN modifiers? What if the GM actually wants to create a sense of drama?
Because that is not a moment for drama - it's a moment for action.
But we could go round and round like this forever. It's a play style thing. Point being - at least one, and perhaps two athletics tests are required in this instance.
But we could go round and round like this forever. It's a play style thing. Point being - at least one, and perhaps two athletics tests are required in this instance.
| QUOTE (mike_the_fish) |
| Because that is not a moment for drama - it's a moment for action. |
So is a firefight.
There should always be a chance of failure, just as there should always be a chance of success. That is what I meant by drama. It doesn't take more than 10 seconds to make a roll, so it isn't going to cut into the atmosphere too greatly, especially as there is already a roll being made at the same time by the Adept.
I would have the Troll make a standard Throwing Weapons Test (since throwing Metahuman Bodies is a function of that skill, and it's essentially what he's doing) with a special +2 target number modifier for using it in an unconventional fashion (much as if he were defaulting) to determine the base distance the adept is going to travel. I see no use of Athletics on the troll's part here. Then I'd add in the distance traveled with the adept's Athletics (Jumping) Test after applying the same modifier for the same reason.
That works too. I just wouldn't outright state that the Troll automatically succeeds.
Nor would I.
But I wouldn't bother if a high strength Troll is making a Strength Test with a low TN.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| But I wouldn't bother if a high strength Troll is making a Strength Test with a low TN. |
Would you rule the same way for a gunbunny with a high pistol skill and an easy shot? It's possible that the high-strength Troll over-used that super strength and threw the Adept too far. Or maybe, knowing that he's very strong, the Troll pulled his throw, resulting in the Adept not flying far/high enough. There are always variables, which is why the test is made.
10 Strength against TN 2? With only 1 success necessary to succeed?
Now if it is combat, the number of successes are crucial, but in the above example, it seem totally a waste of time.
Now if it is combat, the number of successes are crucial, but in the above example, it seem totally a waste of time.
Exactly my point Toturi, thank you.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| 10 Strength against TN 2? With only 1 success necessary to succeed? Now if it is combat, the number of successes are crucial, but in the above example, it seem totally a waste of time. |
Yeah, because there is nothing like the Rule of Ones in Shadowrun.
If you consider that a TN of 2, I'd hate to see what you consider a higher TN!If that troll is relying purely on Strength, he's having to default to it from Throwing Weapons; that's a minimum TN of 8. And that's ignoring the Running Target modifier. Athletics (a Body-based skill) has nothing to do with what he's doing, and it certainly isn't a common, everyday thing. If he were simply providing a step for the adept, that's another thing... but in the example, he's actively throwing the adept in a coordinated effort to boost him over the fence. That's not TN 2 material, nor is it something I'd give an automatic success to.
In any case, once the troll makes his Throwing Weapons test, the rules already account for how much of a boost he gave the adept. Halve the difference between the troll's Strength and the Adept's Body, and that's how many meters the adept traveled. Subtract that difference from the fence's height to determine the TN for the adept's Athetics (Jumping) test. No new rules needed and everything's pretty much covered. I'd still apply a +2 penalty to both of their rolls (basically the Running Target modifier), though, simply because it's not a standard action that one practices on a regular basis.
The rules for throwing a metahuman are on page 14 of the Cannon Companion. The rules for making a vertical jump on on page 47 of the Shadowrun Companion.
if it's a timing issue with the troll have him roll reaction or delay his action and roll athletics or quickness and the physad athletics.
honestly tho, he's a physad and that's what they do. so unless the fence is over 15 feet tall i'd just let him make the jump without the troll throwing him.
edit: it sounds like i'm saying the physad would jmp 15 feet, but i meant just have the physad jump from the troll's cupped hands without the need to have the troll throw him as well. just for clarity.
honestly tho, he's a physad and that's what they do. so unless the fence is over 15 feet tall i'd just let him make the jump without the troll throwing him.
edit: it sounds like i'm saying the physad would jmp 15 feet, but i meant just have the physad jump from the troll's cupped hands without the need to have the troll throw him as well. just for clarity.
| QUOTE (northern lights @ Dec 27 2003, 06:19 PM) |
| ...have the physad jump from the troll's cupped hands without the need to have the troll throw him as well. |
Wouldn't that be akin to the Great Leap Power?
I think he is reducing the height that must be jumped by using the troll as a ledge. No need for a throwing test, just a strength test to lift the adept (hard for a big troll to fail with a small adept).
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm @ Dec 27 2003, 06:28 PM) |
| ...hard for a big troll to fail with a small adept. |
But not impossible, hence the need for at least some kind of test.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Dec 27 2003, 06:55 AM) |
| If that troll is relying purely on Strength, he's having to default to it from Throwing Weapons; that's a minimum TN of 8. And that's ignoring the Running Target modifier. Athletics (a Body-based skill) has nothing to do with what he's doing, and it certainly isn't a common, everyday thing. If he were simply providing a step for the adept, that's another thing... but in the example, he's actively throwing the adept in a coordinated effort to boost him over the fence. That's not TN 2 material, nor is it something I'd give an automatic success to. In any case, once the troll makes his Throwing Weapons test, the rules already account for how much of a boost he gave the adept. Halve the difference between the troll's Strength and the Adept's Body, and that's how many meters the adept traveled. Subtract that difference from the fence's height to determine the TN for the adept's Athetics (Jumping) test. No new rules needed and everything's pretty much covered. I'd still apply a +2 penalty to both of their rolls (basically the Running Target modifier), though, simply because it's not a standard action that one practices on a regular basis. The rules for throwing a metahuman are on page 14 of the Cannon Companion. The rules for making a vertical jump on on page 47 of the Shadowrun Companion. |
Assumption: He is using Throwing Weapons to throw the adept a la Aragon and Gimli in The Two Towers. Throwing Weapon is used to throw a weapon at a target. The troll is doing neither.
He is only boosting the adept over. Not a throw per se. Hence a Strength test, since it is not an Athletic action either.
Therefore, I think that a Strength test is more appropriate. A troll with strength of 11 against a TN of 2 (if he is only providing a stirrup) or 3 or 4 (if he is actually boosting.)
You do not make your PCs roll an Athletics test if they have to run up a flight of stairs or if they have to jump across a drain or off a spring board into a pool. Unless you really like the 3 Stooges or Charlie Chaplin...
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| You do not make your PCs roll an Athletics test if they have to run up a flight of stairs or if they have to jump across a drain or off a spring board into a pool. |
When the outcome could adversely affect another character I do.
One of the PCs may botch the roll, fall down the stairs and trip all the rest... But it'll be ridiculous... 
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Yeah, because there is nothing like the Rule of Ones in Shadowrun. |
6^10=60466176
So you'd have roughly a 1 in 60 million chancing of royally screwing it up.
I don't think "Rule of Ones" is going to be an issue here.
In regard to the situation at large, I'd be more inclined to base the trolls success off quickness, rather than strength, since it's more a matter of timing than anything else. Say, TN 4 with the maximum number of successes set at strength. Basically, the troll would be to slow to bring his full strength to bear. Add the trolls succeses to the adepts succeses for his Atheletics test.
If it was more logical to have the test based on Quickness, the example would have used a high Quickness elf, not a troll.
The implication would, of course, be that Strength would play a greater part than Quickness.
The implication would, of course, be that Strength would play a greater part than Quickness.
Maybe a Quickness, then Strength test?
i'd make it either an athletics or thrown weapons test--whichever the troll had more dice in--and roll for scatter and scatter direction. the adept can split his successes between reducing scatter and gaining height/distance.
I'd have both characters roll Athletics tests. I'd treat the troll's roll as complimentary to the adept's (i.e., add one automatic success to the adept's Athletics test for every two successes the troll rolled).
Mal-2
Mal-2
On what to roll, it should be athletics all the way. If the troll had spent 20 years in the Cirque Du Soleil he'd be able to do this phenomenally even if he'd never thrown a weapon in his life. A professional knife thrower wouldn't be better than any other strong guy, IMO.
| QUOTE (leemur) | ||||
6^10=60466176 So you'd have roughly a 1 in 60 million chancing of royally screwing it up. I don't think "Rule of Ones" is going to be an issue here. In regard to the situation at large, I'd be more inclined to base the trolls success off quickness, rather than strength, since it's more a matter of timing than anything else. Say, TN 4 with the maximum number of successes set at strength. Basically, the troll would be to slow to bring his full strength to bear. Add the trolls succeses to the adepts succeses for his Atheletics test. |
That 1 in the 1/6,000,000 can make all the diff, chummer.
My vote goes to a strength test, followed by an athletics test. Strength, with a target number based on the adept's weight, to make sure the troll is strong enough to lift and throw him. Then an athletics test for the timing and coordination required to do the throw effectively. Successes over the first add to the adept's athletics test complementarily - if no successes are achieved, then he screwed it up and the adept didn't make it across. A botch means he threw him face-first into the fence.
| QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 27 2003, 02:10 AM) |
| Assumption: He is using Throwing Weapons to throw the adept a la Aragon and Gimli in The Two Towers. Throwing Weapon is used to throw a weapon at a target. The troll is doing neither. He is only boosting the adept over. Not a throw per se. Hence a Strength test, since it is not an Athletic action either. |
No, that's an erroneous assumption on your part. The exact quote from the first post was "Adept sprints towards troll, plants foot in the stirrup and leaps up as the troll flings the adept up and back." Note the underlined text. He's throwing the adept at a target; the target being the top of the fence. Targets are in no way whatsoever required to be a living, breathing object. You use Throwing Weapons to throw a grenade for the same reason; you're not actually trying to hit someone with a grenade, you're trying to throw the grenade so it lands in a general area. That's exactly what the troll is doing.
Throwing Weapons is also derived from Strength, and is without a doubt the correct skill to be using here. If he lacks the skill, he defaults to Strength, which is completely appropriate. Even acrobats use Throwing Weapons to throw an object; Athletics (a skill you use *BODY* to default to) is not the end-all be-all skill several people seem to think it is. You don't use Athletics to throw a shot put. You don't use Athletics to throw a spear. You don't use Athletics to throw an adept. That's what Throwing Weapons is for. If the word "Weapons" is confusing some of you -- and it apparently is -- just change the name of the skill to "Throwing Stuff."
| QUOTE |
| Therefore, I think that a Strength test is more appropriate. A troll with strength of 11 against a TN of 2 (if he is only providing a stirrup) or 3 or 4 (if he is actually boosting.) |
And I think a base TN of 4 modified for range using the Throwing Weapons (Metahuman Body) skill is much more appropriate, mostly because it's already covered by the rules and is exactly what the troll is doing.
| QUOTE |
| You do not make your PCs roll an Athletics test if they have to run up a flight of stairs or if they have to jump across a drain or off a spring board into a pool. Unless you really like the 3 Stooges or Charlie Chaplin... |
Of course not. But throwing an adept over a fence (which apparently they can't climb, so it must be barbed or electrified or the like) is more than simply stepping over a puddle or running up a flight of stairs, and has a much higher chance of causing injury or otherwise alerting the authorities to the runner's presence if they screw it up.
the fact that throwing weapons/stuff doesn't default to athletics is how i remind myself that there is no logic in the world.
| QUOTE (Phaeton) | ||||||
That 1 in the 1/6,000,000 can make all the diff, chummer. |
Dice do not follow statistics. If they did, on the first roll, you'd get a 3.5 for the result. That's one D6 being rolled for a result of three and a half. Why? The two mediums are 3 and 4, and the average of the two is three-and-a-half. Not three. Not four.
So that argument is null and void.
However, I would make the Troll roll Athletics because it requires pinpoint accuracy of how hard to push up on the Adept and how much he needs to push the Adept in one direction or another.
If you really want to get into semantics, make him roll Launch Weapons with a +2 TN for an odd weapon and ammunition: Himself and the Adept.
| QUOTE |
| the fact that throwing weapons/stuff doesn't default to athletics is how i remind myself that there is no logic in the world. |
Why is that? What does throwing something have to do with your ability to climb, run, jump, or otherwise endure fatigue? I don't see how my ability to throw a baseball improves or is even remotely related to my ability to climb a cliff or swim across a river.
Athletics includes a very specific type of physical activity. Throwing things is not one of them; that's the domain of, gasp, Throwing Weapons. Again, I know it's a difficult concept, but such is life.
For those of you who can't comprehend that Throwing Weapons is the skill used to throw anything in the game, I highly recommend reading the description of the skill. It's on page 86 of Shadowrun 3rd Edition. Just in case you're too lazy, here's the exact quote: "Throwing Weapons governs the use of any item throw by the user."
So what do you use as your test for playing baseball? I don't think you're throwing the ball as a weapon. 
Throwing Weapons, and my target is the catcher's mitt/not to be hit by the batter. Which, again, is why my skill to do so has fuck-all to do with my ability to swim or climb. When running the bases or trying to steal a base -- and possibly even running to catch a ball -- is when Athletics (Baseball) comes in.
If it were named Throw instead of Throwing Weapons I think it would take a lot of the confusion out of the picture.
Just me, though.
Just me, though.
Would Missile Mastery help at all?
~J
~J
Not in my opinion. Missile Mastery doesn't give any bonuses to TNs. It merely grants the ability to throw unusual objects that are not already included in the Throwing skill. Since a metahuman body is already included under that skill, Missile Mastery would not grant any bonus.
Well, at least it'd add 2 to the Power of the damage anyone you hit would take 
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Athletics includes a very specific type of physical activity. Throwing things is not one of them; that's the domain of, gasp, Throwing Weapons. Again, I know it's a difficult concept, but such is life. For those of you who can't comprehend that Throwing Weapons is the skill used to throw anything in the game, I highly recommend reading the description of the skill. It's on page 86 of Shadowrun 3rd Edition. Just in case you're too lazy, here's the exact quote: "Throwing Weapons governs the use of any item throw by the user." |
The troll did not throw the adept, only providing a step/boost. Not exactly a throw per se. Hence not a Throwing Weapon test, but something else.
Putting his fingers together to form the stirrup and making sure his fingers don't slip is not a component of Throwing, but more properly in the province of Athletics or maybe Strength.
I can see how you're having trouble understanding that the phrase "Adept sprints towards troll, plants foot in the stirrup and leaps up as the troll flings the adept up and back" includes flinging -- or as it is otherwise know, throwing -- the adept.
I also suppose that when you throw a grenade with Throwing Weapons, you're actually secretly making an "Athletics or maybe Strength" test to pull the pin first, eh? Afterall, pulling the pin and making sure not to drop the grenade is obviously not a component of Throwing -- it's clearly Athletics, right?
That, or maybe -- just maybe -- both are just the preliminary steps to using the Throwing Weapons skill. In the troll's case, it's the preliminary step to throwing the adept. In the grenade's case, it's the preliminary step to throwing the grenade.
That just continues down the line of skills, too. Physically using a computer is no longer a use of Computers. Nope, that's Athletics (Typing) or maybe Strength. Shooting someone with a pistol must not be a use of Pistols, either; it's Athletics (Pulling the Trigger) or maybe Strength. Driving a car isn't related to Cars anymore; it's Athletics (Steering and Pushing Pedals) or maybe Strength. etc.
I also suppose that when you throw a grenade with Throwing Weapons, you're actually secretly making an "Athletics or maybe Strength" test to pull the pin first, eh? Afterall, pulling the pin and making sure not to drop the grenade is obviously not a component of Throwing -- it's clearly Athletics, right?
That, or maybe -- just maybe -- both are just the preliminary steps to using the Throwing Weapons skill. In the troll's case, it's the preliminary step to throwing the adept. In the grenade's case, it's the preliminary step to throwing the grenade.
That just continues down the line of skills, too. Physically using a computer is no longer a use of Computers. Nope, that's Athletics (Typing) or maybe Strength. Shooting someone with a pistol must not be a use of Pistols, either; it's Athletics (Pulling the Trigger) or maybe Strength. Driving a car isn't related to Cars anymore; it's Athletics (Steering and Pushing Pedals) or maybe Strength. etc.
The troll may not have the Strength needed to provide the stirrup in the first place. That's why you need to check.
Oh, and it is Quickness, not Athletics(Typing) unless you've been programming for hours. Same for the rest, not Athletics unless you have been shooting/driving for hours. Though WHY you've been shooting for hours is beyond me.
Oh, by the way, are you going to make the player roll if his PC had a Throwing Weapon skill of 12 and a TN of 2?
Oh, and it is Quickness, not Athletics(Typing) unless you've been programming for hours. Same for the rest, not Athletics unless you have been shooting/driving for hours. Though WHY you've been shooting for hours is beyond me.
Oh, by the way, are you going to make the player roll if his PC had a Throwing Weapon skill of 12 and a TN of 2?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| I can see how you're having trouble understanding that the phrase "Adept sprints towards troll, plants foot in the stirrup and leaps up as the troll flings the adept up and back" includes flinging -- or as it is otherwise know, throwing -- the adept. |
This case is obviously an acrobatic move. I can think of no other thrown weapon that actively and intelligently helps you throw it. It's out of the realm of experience for someone who specializes in throwing weapons, but completely within the experience of an acrobat.
Who would you like to perform this move for you, Andy Pettitte or a member of the Cirque Du Soleil?
I agree with Zazen. It seems more logical to assume that it is more of Athletics (Acrobat) than Throwing Weapon (Metahuman Body).
It would be Throwing Weapon if the troll had picked up the adept and had thrown him.
It would be Throwing Weapon if the troll had picked up the adept and had thrown him.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| It would be Throwing Weapon if the troll had picked up the adept and had thrown him. |
As opposed to just flinging the adept into the air?
-Siege
As opposed to hoisting him into the air. I think your choice of words suck. 
I just get the image of a troll (non-adept) hoisting a troll adept over the fence. Suddenly "flinging" is not the word I would use....
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