Full Version: Dodge vs Gymnastics Dodge
What are the pros and cons of each? I only have a general idea, and want to make the "right" choice during character creation. I build characters for fun, and haven't gotten around to playing yet, so until I find a local game I'm focusing on building better characters.
If you have both Gymnastics and a Melee skill, Dodge is largely superfluous. Note that the Dodge skill is still used with some vehicle tests though, and in these cases cannot be interchanged with Gymnastics.
Because, as you have doubtlessly noted, all Olympic gymnasts prove to be the best run-n-gun fighters in the world. Their ability to shoot-n-move while evading incoming fire and melee attacks via their supreme acrobatics has proven the US Olympic gymnastics program to be the best recruiting grounds for units such as NavSpecWarDevGru (Seal 6) and Delta Force.
Basically, under certain circumstances in melee combat, Dodge doubles itself. Gymnastics doesn't do that. So, if you intend to be on full defense in melee a lot, the Dodge skill makes sense. If you don't, then Gymnastics is usually a better choice, since you can dodge *and* do cartwheels.
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 31 2008, 07:57 PM) 
Basically, under certain circumstances in melee combat, Dodge doubles itself. Gymnastics doesn't do that. So, if you intend to be on full defense in melee a lot, the Dodge skill makes sense.
Pretty much any time that you could use Reaction + Dodge + Dodge for Full Defense, you could also opt to use Reaction + Melee skill + Gymnastics for the same result.
Dodge can be specialized for either ranged or melee dodge, giving 2 more dice for a mere 2 BP. On the other hand, a lot of gear gives modifiers to gymnastic.
A GM might also consider that Gymnastic dodge can't be used in all situations, or will at least suffer negative modifiers when the character doesn't have enough space to cartwheel around.
A GM might also consider that Gymnastic dodge can't be used in all situations, or will at least suffer negative modifiers when the character doesn't have enough space to cartwheel around.
QUOTE (psychophipps @ Oct 31 2008, 04:48 AM)
Because, as you have doubtlessly noted, all Olympic gymnasts prove to be the best run-n-gun fighters in the world. Their ability to shoot-n-move while evading incoming fire and melee attacks via their supreme acrobatics has proven the US Olympic gymnastics program to be the best recruiting grounds for units such as NavSpecWarDevGru (Seal 6) and Delta Force.
Gymkata. The skill of gymanstics. The kill of karate.
It is perfectly plausible.
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 31 2008, 01:28 AM)
If "as exemplified by one of the worst martial arts movies of the 1980s with horrible choreography and the all but unlimited ability to make retakes until it looks semi-cool" is your definition of "perfectly plausible" then you're quite correct.
Unfortunately, it's not my definition so...yeah.
It isn't like those Special Forces dudes are actually 'dodging bullets'. They are just experienced at moving out of the line of fire, which is emulated by the Gymnastics skill (and works in a similar manner in melee combat if the character also possesses a melee skill).
There are some things that Dodge can do that Gymnastics cannot, and vice versa, but there is a fair amount of overlap between the two skills.
There are some things that Dodge can do that Gymnastics cannot, and vice versa, but there is a fair amount of overlap between the two skills.
Dodge might be a better choice if you have Move-by-Wire. If you have Raptor Cyberlegs then Gymnastics dodge would server you better.
Then again, if you take MBW AND Raptor Cyberlegs then you get +2 no matter which way you go. So if you're in that boat then take both and specialize in Ranged Dodge so you can get it to a higher level cheaper.
Then again, if you take MBW AND Raptor Cyberlegs then you get +2 no matter which way you go. So if you're in that boat then take both and specialize in Ranged Dodge so you can get it to a higher level cheaper.
Don't forget synthecardium (and NEO-EPO if you want to go the extra mile) for Gymnastic Dodge.
The Adept Power Improved Ability is cheaper for Gymnastics (.25 PP/lvl) than it is for Dodge (.5 PP/lvl).
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 02:07 AM)
Pretty much any time that you could use Reaction + Dodge + Dodge for Full Defense, you could also opt to use Reaction + Melee skill + Gymnastics for the same result.
You can? My reading says nothing of the sort, you just get Gymnastics. Doesn't change the fact that gymnastics is still more useful, and usually the difference will be 3 dice or less.
QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 Core Rulebook pg 151)
Full defense can either be taken as a full dodge, full parry, or gymnastics dodge.
Full Dodge: Character on full defense may add their Dodge skill to their dice pool when defending against incoming attacks. So a character on full defense against a ranged attack rolls Reaction + Dodge, whereas a character on full defense against a melee attack could roll Reaction + Dodge + Dodge, or Reaction + melee combat skill + Dodge. Full dodge may be used against both ranged and melee attacks.
Full Parry: Characters who go on full parry roll their Reaction + (melee combat skill x 2) against any and all melee attacks made against them. Full parry may not be used against ranged attacks.
Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.
Full Dodge: Character on full defense may add their Dodge skill to their dice pool when defending against incoming attacks. So a character on full defense against a ranged attack rolls Reaction + Dodge, whereas a character on full defense against a melee attack could roll Reaction + Dodge + Dodge, or Reaction + melee combat skill + Dodge. Full dodge may be used against both ranged and melee attacks.
Full Parry: Characters who go on full parry roll their Reaction + (melee combat skill x 2) against any and all melee attacks made against them. Full parry may not be used against ranged attacks.
Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can spend their action flipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against either ranged or melee attacks.
Note that in each case the base Dice Pool for melee combat is still Reaction + Skill (either dodge or Melee). The Full Defense modifiers (Dodge or Melee skill or Gymnastics depending on type of defense being used) are added to the base Pool(s). In melee combat, Gymnastics Dodge does not just add Gymnastics to Reaction alone.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 06:47 AM)
Note that in each case the base Dice Pool is still Reaction + Skill (either dodge or Melee). The Full Defense modifiers (Dodge or Melee skill or Gymnastics depending on type of defense being used) are added to the base Pool(s). Gymnastics Dodge does not just add Gymnastics to Reaction alone.
No offense, but I'm not seeing it. It looks to me like the "triple threat" of getting three stats to roll is restricted to the use of the Dodge skill. Which actually means the Dodge skill has a use in certain circumstances. The way you propose it, Dodge is completely useless, while this way makes it mostly useless.
Yeah, I know Full Parry is Reaction+Melee Skill+Melee Skill., but this is only usable in melee.
You can, though, as far as I can tell, for full melee defense roll Reaction+Melee Skill+Gymnastics or Dodge, whichever you have. I always assumed Gymnastics Dodge replaced Dodge. I also don't know why you have to only be melee to take it; someone with Dodge(Ranged) 4(+2) still has less full ranged defense than someone with Gymnastics 5(Synthacardium 3), and it actually specifies that Gymnastics Dodge may be added to melee or ranged attacks. Now, for someone with no Synthacardium and Move By Wire, yeah, Dodge would probably be better(and again, not usable if driving something.)
But yeah, each have their perks, as said(Dodge can be specialized and you can do it in vehicles, Gymnastics can have things like Synthacardium added.)
You can, though, as far as I can tell, for full melee defense roll Reaction+Melee Skill+Gymnastics or Dodge, whichever you have. I always assumed Gymnastics Dodge replaced Dodge. I also don't know why you have to only be melee to take it; someone with Dodge(Ranged) 4(+2) still has less full ranged defense than someone with Gymnastics 5(Synthacardium 3), and it actually specifies that Gymnastics Dodge may be added to melee or ranged attacks. Now, for someone with no Synthacardium and Move By Wire, yeah, Dodge would probably be better(and again, not usable if driving something.)
But yeah, each have their perks, as said(Dodge can be specialized and you can do it in vehicles, Gymnastics can have things like Synthacardium added.)
I think 'dodge' is just throwing yourself down like most action Rambo or John McClane.
Gymnastic dodge I think of as the sort of anime type move.
Gymnastic dodge I think of as the sort of anime type move.
From the 4th Edition Shadowrun FAQ ...
QUOTE (SR4 FAQ)
What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 06:57 AM)
From the 4th Edition Shadowrun FAQ ...
QUOTE
What exactly is the dice pool used in the Full Defense option Gymnastic Dodge (p. 151, SR4)?
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.
Against ranged attacks, it would be Reaction + Gymnastics. Against melee attacks, it would be Reaction + Dodge + Gymnastics or Reaction + melee skill + Gymnastics.
OK, that settles that. Thank you.
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 1 2008, 12:51 AM)
It looks to me like the "triple threat" of getting three stats to roll is restricted to the use of the Dodge skill.
All Full Defense dice pools consist of three parts.
Full Dodge is Reaction + Dodge + Dodge
Full Parry is spelled out in the rules as Reaction + Melee skill + Melee skill.
And Gymnastics Dodge is as I listed earlier.
Edit: I note that you posted, but I still wanted to address the Full Parry issue. Oh, and you're welcome.
Wait, what's the reason to take dodge? Aside from specialization that is.
Edit: Since I don't wish to make a second post. Can someone explain to me how using the Two Weapon Style ability to make a full gymnastic defense because you have an off hand weapon is supposed to work?
Edit: Since I don't wish to make a second post. Can someone explain to me how using the Two Weapon Style ability to make a full gymnastic defense because you have an off hand weapon is supposed to work?
Vehicle maneuvers.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 07:24 AM)
Vehicle maneuvers.
Anything the swordfighter adept is gonna care about?
Nothing! Gymnastics is better in pretty much every way.
But he really might very well care if he does ever have to make a Crash test while driving.
But he really might very well care if he does ever have to make a Crash test while driving.
Keep in mind though, that without Dodge, if your swordmaster is caught without a blade in hand, then he has to either rely on a secondary melee skill, or suck it up and not use Full Defense.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 07:33 AM)
Keep in mind though, that without Dodge, if your swordmaster is caught without a blade in hand, then he has to either rely on a secondary melee skill, or suck it up and not use Full Defense.
Hmm, that is a consideration that's nagging at my paranoia center. The base skill rating of 9 with a sword means nothing if I don't actually have a sword.
Now, if you're a flat-out barehanded person, you have the Block option, which means you are gravy. But yeah, for weapon-masters, Dodge is indeed a consideration still, IMO.
Because your DM might tell you that he doesn't care what RAW says, doing a cartwheel in the middle of combat is just plain silly.
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 31 2008, 04:28 AM)
Hyzmarca wins the thread.
I want to get a Gymkata poster for my room.
You know, I've have characters using melee weapons quite a bit and I have yet to use Full Defense even once.
Me either, but I have seen it used a couple of times by other Players.
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 31 2008, 10:28 AM)
Whoa! It even has ninja! I must see this movie!
QUOTE (Blade @ Oct 31 2008, 07:07 PM)
Whoa! It even has ninja! I must see this movie!
I once had someone at an arcade put it on the arcade TV screens and everyone stopped playing DDR to stare at Gymkata.
Gymnastics is also extra good because it comes as part of the atheltics skill group and frankly pretty much every shadow runner is going to need to:
A) Run
B) Jump
C) Climb
Unless your the fat wheelchair bound type.
A) Run
B) Jump
C) Climb
Unless your the fat wheelchair bound type.
People tend to be focusing on gymnastics vs. dodge for full defense. The thing I would emphasize there is that gymnastics adds to the pool if you have the dodge skill, or a melee skill, already, but if not, then you are only adding it once (Reaction + gymnastics) as opposed to twice for dodge (Reaction + dodge + dodge).
But even more importantly, you can only use it for full defense, not normal defense. Someone with dodge rolls Reaction + dodge against melee attacks, while someone with gymnastics can only roll Reaction.
For ranged defense, gymnastics is virtually the same (normal ranged defense is only Reaction, while full defense is either Reaction + dodge or Reaction + gymnastics).
So, gymnastics is good for defense only if you also have a melee skill.
But even more importantly, you can only use it for full defense, not normal defense. Someone with dodge rolls Reaction + dodge against melee attacks, while someone with gymnastics can only roll Reaction.
For ranged defense, gymnastics is virtually the same (normal ranged defense is only Reaction, while full defense is either Reaction + dodge or Reaction + gymnastics).
So, gymnastics is good for defense only if you also have a melee skill.
Agree with glyph.
Basically if your a meat world specialist, you're going to want athletics group + unarmed combat (or other skill)
If you are an astral or matrix specialist, you may want dodge, because the other two groups are less useful
Basically if your a meat world specialist, you're going to want athletics group + unarmed combat (or other skill)
If you are an astral or matrix specialist, you may want dodge, because the other two groups are less useful
Gymnastic dodge is simply another way to take a full defense action for those characters who don't want to die when caught without cover in a gunfight but don't have the spare BP to spend in a purely defensive combat skill. Dodge applies to all melee attacks(even without taking full defense) and can have specs in ranged or melee combat to fit your liking. Gymnastic dodge doesn't have quite that versatility, but is in a skill that is more generically useful. For my non-melee focused characters, I usually just take a few ranks in unarmed combat(with shock gloves of course) and gymnastics and that covers most my bases. If you are caught in melee without your hands, you have more problems then just a crappy dice pool.
QUOTE (Ravor @ Oct 31 2008, 12:17 PM)
Because your DM might tell you that he doesn't care what RAW says, doing a cartwheel in the middle of combat is just plain silly.
Tell that to Jackie Chan.
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 1 2008, 10:57 AM)
Tell that to Jackie Chan.
Right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gTkUcXGF_Q
I don't take combat advice from movie actors, even if they are martial artists in Real Life, thanks,
Well, some folks like their games realistic; I get enough of the real world in real life and don't mind using some ''movie/game'' physics to make things more fun. I mean, i guess for some deadset realism is fun, but I'm not one of them. To each their own, I suppose. Gymnastics Dodge + Dodge= More Options to choose from.
I don't know how much they have changed this from 3rd edition to 4th edition, but i like how they had athletic dodge set up. you get more dice to play with when dodging, all you were doing the whole combat turn was dodging and weaving out of danger. Somewhat realistic with that extra bit of movie magic.
QUOTE (Ravor @ Nov 1 2008, 12:26 PM)
I don't take combat advice from movie actors, even if they are martial artists in Real Life, thanks,
Good, then you'll be happy to learn that the guy in that clip was not a martial artist, but rather an Olympic gymnast, and therefore I guess you can take advice from him.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 31 2008, 04:07 AM)
Pretty much any time that you could use Reaction + Dodge + Dodge for Full Defense, you could also opt to use Reaction + Melee skill + Gymnastics for the same result.
this is why I'll never go fully 4th ed.or in other words you could have spam, spam, spam, eggs, spam and spam, OR spam, spam, spam, eggs, sausage and spam.
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 1 2008, 05:29 PM)
Good, then you'll be happy to learn that the guy in that clip was not a martial artist, but rather an Olympic gymnast, and therefore I guess you can take advice from him.
I believe he was referring to Mr. Chan. In any case, running, dodging, diving into a rolls and vaulting off of objects is going to make you a very difficult target for ranged attacks. I still can't fathom how it would work in melee.
QUOTE (reepneep @ Nov 1 2008, 10:31 PM)
I believe he was referring to Mr. Chan.
In any case, running, dodging, diving into a rolls and vaulting off of objects is going to make you a very difficult target for ranged attacks. I still can't fathom how it would work in melee.
In any case, running, dodging, diving into a rolls and vaulting off of objects is going to make you a very difficult target for ranged attacks. I still can't fathom how it would work in melee.
You've obviously never been in a fist fight with someone who is very agile, people who move around a lot and are flexible are very hard to get a solid hit on, especially when then end up behind you.
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 1 2008, 11:35 AM)
Right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gTkUcXGF_Q
Don't you love how there is a mob of like 200 people there, but they only come at him 1 or 2 at a time? I mean anyone with decent combat skills and endurance could take down 200 (untrained) people if they only have to fight one at a time.
QUOTE (TheOOB @ Nov 1 2008, 09:40 PM)
You've obviously never been in a fist fight with someone who is very agile, people who move around a lot and are flexible are very hard to get a solid hit on, especially when then end up behind you.
That's more of a matter of reading and anticipating your opponent's movements, thus being your melee skill group rather than anything covered by the gymnastics skill. Besides, all you do to bouncy, always in motion people is round kick their legs out from under them.
QUOTE (reepneep @ Nov 1 2008, 08:29 PM)
That's more of a matter of reading and anticipating your opponent's movements, thus being your melee skill group rather than anything covered by the gymnastics skill. Besides, all you do to bouncy, always in motion people is round kick their legs out from under them.
Please. If they're that bouncy, they're just going to jump right over a sweep.
Wear them down. Most people aren't in very good shape, and can't keep up the bouncy stuff for more than a minute or two. If they are better than that, you're probably dead anyway, so there's no harm in trying to run them out of energy.
QUOTE (Cain @ Nov 1 2008, 10:54 PM)
Please. If they're that bouncy, they're just going to jump right over a sweep.
Wear them down. Most people aren't in very good shape, and can't keep up the bouncy stuff for more than a minute or two. If they are better than that, you're probably dead anyway, so there's no harm in trying to run them out of energy.
Wear them down. Most people aren't in very good shape, and can't keep up the bouncy stuff for more than a minute or two. If they are better than that, you're probably dead anyway, so there's no harm in trying to run them out of energy.
Note that I said kick their legs out from under them, not a sweep. A good kick to the thigh is very good for wearing people out and very difficult to evade.
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