Did you know that Force 1 Nuclear elementals can theorhetically kill Great Dragons? Neither did I, until I took a closer look at them.

A nuclear elemental is simply a toxic fire elemental. Fire elementals aren't really that dangerous, neccessarily. However, as soon as that fire elemental gets corrupted (I think that's the metamagic), its Energy Aura, Energy Attack, and Engulf attacks change from (Fire) to (Radiation). Street Magic kinda tells us a little about radiation damage; how it's treated as physical damage and how it ignores armor. That in and of itself is really dangerous.

But it gets worse.

Enter Arsenal, on the bottom of page 167, where it starts refining radiation damage. It remains physical damage that ignores armor, but now it's also treated as a pathogen, as per Augmentation, page 129.

There are 4 forms of radiation listed in Arsenal; Mild, Moderate, Severe, and Deadly. Now all of them have Speeds that also have a timer next to them like pathogens, but unlike pathogens there's no minimum amount of intervals. I'd imagine that means they keep going until actual medical care is given, but that's not the important part.

The important part is how it states (emphasis added). This means that even if you reduce the power of the attack down to 0 and take no damage from the attack, since you were subject to said radiation, it starts to accrue. And as soon as you accrue Deadly levels of radiation, even if you took no damage from the radiation, you still enter a state known as the walking ghost phase, which means you have 1-4 days before you enter into

One of the very interesting things about Energy Aura is how, irregardless of the Force of the elemental, it deals a set +4 DV, and if you strike it with a melee attack, you're subject to a 4 DV attack of said element. 4 DV with 0 penetration is exactly like Mild Radiation Poisoning. So when you hit this F1 Nuclear Spirit, you have to save vs. 4 Radiation damage. Even if you reduce the DV to 0, since you were subjected to Mild Radiation Poisoning, you're still mildly irradiated. Additional attacks will accrue the radiation poisoning until, after who knows how many hot sources you're exposed to, you hit Severe Radiation Poisoning, and, even though you haven't taken damage, you have 1-4 days to live.

Now normally it'd be easy to stay away from these things, but we can do mean things like have them on the astral plane, moving their 5 kM/CT to keep up with/catch up to the group, then materialize (in 2 IPs, IIRC) right beside the players. Most people would just smack it, and that would induce radiation poisoning. Or, you could have them posess other creatures, and have said creatures get into melee range.

The point being, it's easy to use an elemental that inflicts radiation damange to induce radiation poisoning in a group.

Let's take a F6 or F8 Nuclear Elemental's Energy Attack (Radiation). A f6 would take 1 or 2 (maybe 3 if you're feeling generous) to reach Deadly Radiation Poisoning, since 6 DV is slightly above Severe Poisoning. And that's ignoring net hits increasing DV. On the other hand, a F8 Nuclear Elemental's base DV is already 8, wich starts us out in Deadly Radiation Poisoning levels.

Considering a magic 1 toxic shaman can summon f1 Nuclear spirits, and it only takes a magic 4 shaman to summon f8 nuclear spirits, I think the world just got a lot more dangerous.

Interesting, no?

Two things.


This is what is called a "false assumption." By your logic even a character in a rad suit would die from radiation poisoning. Your basic assumption that a nuclear elemental is the same as Mild Radiation Poisoning is spurious; you conveniently ignore the fact that the rules for radiation elemental damage specifically states that the character damaged by the attack develops light radiation poisoning, which increase in severity as the dosage of radiation increases. So starting out at Moderate radiation poisoning is more than a little silly, especially if the damage is reduced to zero.

Second, Digital Grimoire introduces the decontamination, radiation barrier, and radiation shield spells.

and isn't cancer cureable in SR?

localized cancer maybe, but iirc, with enough radiation exposure, your whole body is a walking cancer cell factory...

as for radiation being nasty, no shit sherlock!

DNA can be successfully rewritten however the doc wants it, up to the point of complete repair of aging. Cancer is toast.

Yeah just write a retro virus that replaces all DNA with ... your DNA

there's probably even an immunization to cancer all together . . or against radiation . .

may take time tho, and be costly...

oh, and be sure to file a sample before you pick up the SV's...

I'm sorry Mr. Goblin, if you thinking about the cost of heath care these days you can't afford it.

heh, i dont think health insurance covers radiation exposure...

especially not if one is a shadowrunner by trade...

Not complete immunity - check out uncontrolled metastasis, which is available to changelings too. Keep in mind that radiation dosages are subjective and involve the gm saying "Now you have X level" - you don't know how "hot" the elemental is exactly, and that radiation in general depends on size - I'm going to be able to take a hell of a lot more rad exposure than a four year old, and you as a person are subject to low levels of radiation every second of the day. If I walk up to a force 50 nuclear elemental, that should be like walking into a nuclear reactor that has just finished melting down, but force 1? That's like walking around every day.

Actually, radiation levels are specifically defined by the amount of sieverts absorbed. This means that smart players can actually make radiation exposure far too much trouble for the GM to ever bother with, by demanding that the GM calculate radiation exposure precisely in sieverts.

(from what little i've read about radiation poisoning)
the amount of radiation being emitted is determined by the amount of energy and radiation source contains. seeing as a radiation elemental is pure harmful radiation energy i would say a force one spirit could make you sick rather quickly but not exactly kill you a force 4 or more probably would kill you rather quickly (a few hours im guessing). but unless you that toxic punk using them i doubt youll have that problem. i say force 8 or higher would pose a significant threat to humans. forces higher than ten would probably cook most think real quick like.

anyone else thinking of unique enchantments powered by radiation spirits?

easy, the amount of damage boxes done after initial body test of an exposure is the number of SV's picked up...

Divided by 100. You pick up a fair bit of radiation each day.

I also have to wonder how the called shot rules effect radiation damage. The N-value of the brain is only .05, while the N-value of the gonads is .2, 4 times higher. Which means that a called shot to the testicles with a neutron gun is 4 times worse than a called shot to the brain is, though the called shot to the head is probably more likely to be fatal.

Well it works like this, for every -1 you give your dice pool, your DV goes up by 1. Just because your target changes doesn't change how the called shot rules work.

They're likely to stock up on Potassium Iodide if given any warning, too.

That depends on his self-image Tho, I guess they could always drop you another pair ...

well i was just going by the stuff in arsenal, and it said a mild dose would be 1-2SV...

This totally makes me want a full-auto Graser.

Amen. Nuclear spirits (or anything with radiation damage) are the scariest (general) spirits I recall reading. I just hope my GM never notices them.

Gama Ray Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation

In short: a gama-ray laser.

So it has come for me the day to agreed with you oh master of the twisted way of knowledge.
No realy a great dragon would just have spit on a force 1 spirit to get rid of it or if you want cast a force 1 manastatic.

Given the damned near impossibility of focusing gamma photons, you're better off with a nuclear-bomb-pumped x-ray laser. Its only single-shot and you don't want to be anywhere near it when you pull the trigger, but it gets the job done.

interesting

Actually, that's exactly right. Pathogens state that EVEN IF YOU REDUCE POWER TO 0, you still have the effects of the pathogen. Radiation Poisoning is treated as a pathogen. Therefore, even if you reduce the power to 0, you've got radiation sickness.

Think of it this way; even if you're tough enough not to break out into open sores and blisters, you're still irradiated.

I'm not saying there isn't a cure, but I am saying that as soon as you've taken enough accruing radiation poisoning to reach Deadly Levels, even if you reduce the damage to 0, even if you get treatments, you have 1-4 days to live, as stated in the rules.

And the reason this works is because elemental attacks deal secondary effects based on the elemental damage dealt. Radiation poisoning is an effect of radiation damage, which Nuclear Elementals deal.

Anti-Rad r6, r6 Radiation Protection, Bod 20. Fails his avoidance of a F8 Nuclear Spirit's Elemental Attack (elemental got 1 net hit). Super-troll or whatever has to save vs. 9 DV. Anti-Rad drops it to 3, his Bod 20 + Radiation Shielding 6 reduces the 3 to 0. He still was subject to the damage, so he still has 1-4 days to live.

And the reason those f1 Nuclear spirits did it is because their Elemental Aura is always a +4 DV, and melee attacks sent at them always make the attacker save vs. 4 DV.

Now if you've got a f1 Nuclear Spirit standing right next to you and you shoot him, you don't technically get any radiation poisoning, enev though he was shining your shoes.


Again, the game says something to the effect of "in order to keep the game flowing smoothly, use the 4 grades of radiation poisoning." They even list like Mild is 1-4 SV, Moderate is like 5-6 or somesuch.

Except, and I know this is a hard one, radiation sickness isn't a pathogen. It just uses that format for uniformity - a lot like toxins in that regard.

I'm not saying you don't pick up a couple rads from exposure, but I am disagreeing with your hair falling out and your body turning into a bloated tumor the second you get a movie shot to the shoulder.

Why not? Arsenal states that Radiation Poisoning works like a pathogen, and pathogens state that even if you reduce damage to 0, you still have that pathogen. Even further, pathogens state that even if you reduce damage to 0, you still take secondary effects if the pathogen states you do. All forms of radiation damage list secondary effects you gain, irregardless of taking damage from the pathogen itself.

The only thing I assume is that the radiation levels of an irradiated character would raise; ex: taking damage/being exposed to 5 forms of mild radiation should at least increase radiation poisoning to moderate.

It would take a lot of hits from a f1 nuclear spirit to kill someone (more than the elemental would survive), however in the realm of possibility, by the rules, it is possible. However, a f4+ nuclear spirit would have a lot easier time killing a party.

so the gray area is the (potential) accumulative effect of radiation...

And the black area is the F8 (or any amount equaling 8+ DV) killing the player; maybe not immediately, but within 1-4 days.

I'll assume that a 'nuclear spirit' is in the rules already ,if not give me room to rant, but I would say it is far far more than a toxic fire elemental. Fire is one of the baisc greek elements and it changes things by altering their structure and links through excessive heat. BUT a nucelar reaction is far far more. It is the breaking down of most basic bullding blocks of matter and releasing the energy there.

If there is such a thing a a nuclear elemental, a phrase I find contadictory, It is the stuff at the core of the universe. It should make even a rampaging blood spirit or pure spirit shape bug seem tame.

In 1945 the crew of the Enola Gay, already in the air did not know for sure what they were carrying. They knew it was a WMD. The tail gunner asked if they were carrying"A chemist's nightmare." He meant gas. He was told by Tibbets, the commander, "Sort of."
"Sir are we carrying a physist's night mare?"
"Yes."
"Sir, Are we splitting atoms?"
Tibbets walked away, even then unable to answer that statement even while in the air and on the way to the drop, so massively different is the effect of a nuclear reation. More people died from convenitonal bombs dropped on Tokyo and Hamburg in the course of several days. The difference was that was done in days. The Hiroshima bomb did it all in seconds. Not thousands of planes in a hundred hours. but one plane, one bomb and enough time for it to drop 5 miles down from a plane and airburst.

(An hour after walking away from his tail gunner, Tibbets got on the intercom and confirmed "Yes Bob, We're splitting atoms.")

Street Magic, Magical Threats section. Nuclear/Toxic Fire Elemental. Energy Aura (Radiation), Energy Attack (Radiation), Engulf (Radiation).

Radiation Damage's secondary elemental effects is what this thread is currently debating.

and going over the hazard chapter of arsenal (the most recent book to cover radiation damage) i see no stated link between radiation poisoning and the radiation secondary effect in street magic.

so applying radiation poisoning rules to the elemental effect is at best a house rule, imo...

Because radiation is NOT a pathogen it's an energy form which happen to be strong enough to break some molecular bonds in the DNA chains, corrupting the genetic code and so potentialy causing glitches in the cellular system (potentialy fatal glitches that crash said system); if exposure is high enough glitchy cellular systems will affect negatively the living being they are part of (from disfunctions, to tumors, to outright tissue necrosis).
In game terms works like a pathogen because it's the simpliest way to rapresent it with a minimum of belivability, but this does NOT mean that they are the same; just think about skills, negotiation works mechanicaly very similary to firearms, but they do completely different things becuase they ARE different things, just like radiation and pathogens are.

No sir, Radiaiton Poisoning IS TREATED AS A PATHOGEN. That means, for all intents and purposes, it is a pathogen. The game recognizes radiation poisoning as a pathogen in order to have the rules function.

Also, the Radiation damage sidebar in Street Magic was later expanded on in Arsenal. That's why we use the Arsenal rules; because they're the most recent, complete rules for how this works.

I posted all of this in the original post, people.

You fail to realize that the rules do not support your claim

I know Radiation is not a Pathogen, in real life

However in Shadowrun to help streamline the mechanics involved they are telling us that is is a pathogen, as such you follow the pathogen rules when resolving radiations effect.

right, then the rule, thank you for giving the source, that nuclear is just a fire gone toxic does not even come close to discribing what nuclear power is. It may cause out of control fire but to say it is merely toxic fire on an elemental basis does not come close to understanding what nuclear energy is.

It is not elemental. It is what makes up the elements. it is the core behind water/earth/fire/air. Elemental means it is the base, the beginig from which things grow and the world is made up from how these bases combine. Nuclear is the base below this, where the elementals are born and where their differneces dissapear.

Nuclear is not just a fire out of control or even filled with hatred and destructive rage. It is the destruction of the bonds which makes something an element. That destruction results in a release of energy unlike anything else. something that makes even the hotest burning fire pale. Fire is heat on fuel it needs osmething to burn and it ends when the fuel is burned. A nuclear reation is the release of energy created by breaking the very bonds that hold the universe together.

"Sort of a sub molecular internal, external reaction."
"Or an Atomic bomb."

Ah my lady, once again you prove quite insightfull.

My thanks.

The only think missing is a requisite number of tests for radiation sickness, but that's irrelevant. By these 3 sentences, if you take 8+ radiation damage, you are subjected to Deadly Radiation Poisoning (logically, since DRP has a power of 8).

well, the people that summon said spirits are probably so out there mentally that they make modern day militant environmentalists seem narcoleptic...

No ma'am. A toxic fire elemental is a nuclear elemental. It loses Elemental Attack (Fire), Elemental Aura (Fire), and Engulf (Fire) and gains Elemental Attack (Radiation), Elemental Aura (Radiation), and Engulf (Radiation). Radiation damage has its own rules, which I have stated, quoted, and paraphrazed many times, which has the outcome I have stated above. Player Death, total and wholesale.

My brain almost exploded when I read your post yo, Lets try it this way and maybe we can come to the same conclusion.

Examples:

In Real life Radiation is not a Element
In Shadowrun it is a Elemental, as per the rules.

In Real Life Dragons (as described in any fantasy setting) do not exist.
In Shadowrun Dragons exisit.

In Real Life Trolls/Goblins/Orcs/Elfs do not spontaneously erupt from humans
In Shadowrun They do

What have we learned? I have learned that in the Game World of Shadowrun Radiation is a element as per the rules. Not my Rules, not Neraph's rules, but by the Game's Rules.

EDIT: 100th post@!

except the exact words, with page reference, that link the radiation elemental effect to the toxic hazards chapter in arsenal.

I don't know about you guys, but when the rules are reviewed, updated, refined, or in any other way improved, I tend to use those rules. Street Magic had rules for Radiation Damage, but Arsenal came out and clarified, refined, and expanded them. Logically, in order to get the best use of the rules, we use the best/newest rules, right?

EDIT: That's like not using the errata or FAQ because they weren't noted in the book.

Rage, I understand that it is the rules which say 'X.' I'm merely arguing that in this case the rules are massivley off base and fail to allow for how truly differnet nuclear energy is from anything else. I accept that the rules declare such and such. I'm just saying the rules, then, fail.

As for dragons not being real..we'll see, but one of us is in for a surprise.

How can you actually say things? You state that Nuclear Elementals don't do damage like the game says because in real life radiation works differenly than the rules say it works for the game. The game rules that Nuclear Elementals deal radiation damage, and radiation damage has very, very specific effects. If the rules fail so horribly, then why play the game at all?

My point is that the writer has failed to caputre the sense of what nuclear power is.

Our point, and the game's point, as stated in Arsenal, is that the rules summarize and simplify the effects of radiation, for the fluidity and ease of the game.

We don't care how fire damage, cold damage, eletricity damage, or radiation damage functions in the real world. We care about how those types of damage function is Shadowrun. And in Shadowrun, I'm sure it works like I've shown.