Hey dude seriously, why are you playing Shadowrun 4th then? If you believe the rules are broken and fail then my heartfelt suggestion is to go find another game system that you can agree with and start playing it. I have seen plenty of people here (and in other places) make some minor rules tweekz so that they can get along, this is something you most likely need to do so you can get over the game. Just be cognizant that your house rule will hold no water elsewhere.

As for dragons (as presented in a fantasy setting) I honestly have nothing to say to that. No one in my entire life has ever said that to me. I guess we will see won't we

magic is as much about the mental image someone has as the actual laws of physics...

They also have no idea how guns work either, and have actively resisted learning anything for the last 19 years. The rules/cannon modeling of reality is so far off in so many places that it's kind pointless to worry about yet another example of SR writer/developer cluelessness.

I think I've argumented my position well enough.
I find your conclusion highly illogical, but I'm in no way telling you how you have to handle the thing in your game, porpouse of the whole shadowrun thing is having fun, if you are having fun you are right about doing it.
On the other hand the OP asked a question, and said question recived a negative response by someone who is not the developer but is close enough and has a quite in deph knowledge on the game's rules, yet you insist on your initial position, it is given you explaination why former response has been given and you still insist that you are right? Fine. I don't think it is any use talk about it anymore.
Yet I would like to point that I do NOT to fail to realize anything, I just read what is written and I associate to the black shapes that I see on the page a meaning, and that meaning is that radiation is rapresented in gamerules as a pathogen for sake of semplicity, but they aren't the same. They aren't that similar if you think, pathogens require subsequent tests and you can recover from them on your own, radiatio comes in 4 grades and can be cured only trough geneterapy.
I would suggest to avoid similar comments in future, disagreeding with someone bringing arguments is welcome (it is integral in reaching a better understanding of the rules and maybe hammering out some issues), just telling people that you are right and they are wrong is pretty much like the pope that tells you that what you belive in is wrong because he has the reveled truth and anything that doesn't agreed with him is false (it happened); some people will just ignore you, other are going to be pissed of (even if they say nothing) and very few will tell yes I was wrong if they don't recive any argument to support the statement.
Good luck for your champain, and pleas let us know how your player reacted to your nuke spirit.

To Snow Fox:

My lady you are indeed right about radiation being result of conversion of matter in energy.
But pleas consider that spirits follow theyr own set of rule (metaphisicaly speaking), they are shaped by expectation and emotion, not by the law of subatomic phisics.
People associate radiation to fire because they feel alike (ever got sunburned?), even if they know that they are enterily different things their subconscious asoociates the two things. The toxic spirits of fire are the way they are because metahumanity belives to be that way.
I hope to not have come out assholish but realy spirits can be anything.


To Ragewind:

I suggest to tone down the aptitude.

Aptitude Why Thank You that is a excellent compliment.

Depends on just what you have an aptitude for. It shouldn't take too much imagination to come with something uncomplimentary.

You're logic is flawed.

All Deadly Radiation Poisoning has a Power of 8. This does not mean that all radiation exposures with a Power of 8 are Deadly Radiation Poisoning.

I am just confused why they are still arguing this point. One of the more knowledgeable free lance writers basically came out and said that your wrong.

Also I would like to point out that Shadowrun is vaguely worded... at best. The wishy washy text means a great many things can be taken a great many ways. I would also like to point out that the way the rules work there is obviously very little thought given concerning the previous rules created. You can take an item from the BBB., Augmentation, and a few things from Unwired and build yourself a skillwire platform rolling something like 17+ dice on every single test you make and get to use edge. Sometimes it's a bit obvious that they are just not looking back on what they write, and sometimes that is why some of the devs or free lance writers have to post to say that it wasn't meant to be that way. I'll just not use that loophole, or read into the rule the way you both have read into it, and wait for the errata then as it seems fairly obvious the rules were not intended to be that way.

hey, this is dumpshock, what else is there to do?

create seriously over the top characters that are, by the rules, still viable designs . . like the ultimate mundane climber troll who in return for going from 44 to 40 die in climbing anything he likes can be broadened into a good cat burglar or assassin or brawler . .
somehow, i think i am going to try and create my first 4th Ed Character to have one Cyber-Arm with an Built in Grapple-Hand and Magnetics and climbing hooks on the hand and two cyber-feet with the hover-feet add-on. make him an athletics adept and have him grab onto other vehicles to let himself be dragged through town as a means of transportation . .
like water-skiing, only with cars, trucks, monorails and hover-crafts in the city ^^

I'd examine this with respect to RAW (disclaimer: I do not have Digital Grimoire because I do not trust online purchasing and hence cannot claim to have access to all RAW).

Under Radiation Elemental Damage p145 SM, it states what deals Radiation damage and how it is treated. In p167-169, Radiation is split into the various types of Radiation poisoning.

Now the crux of the matter are therefore
1) what constitutes cumulative irradiation

2) whether Radiation damage constitutes irradiation

3) whether Radiation damage of 8+ is the same as Deadly Radiation Poisoning

My answers would be

1) Cumulative irradiation is in and of itself undefined. But while cumulative irradiation is undefined, irradiation is. Therefore cumulative irradiation would, IMO, be the cumulative effects of the irradiation vector.

2) Taking p145 SM and p167-169 simultaneously, yes, similar wordings would suggest so, however, it should be noted that it is not explicitly stated so. Hence strictly by RAW, no.

3) No, while Deadly Radiation Poisoning has a fixed Power of 8, it does not meaning that all Radiation damage of 8 is Deadly Radiation Poisoning, much less Radiation damage of greater than 8. By RAW it is simply not explicitly stated so, nor is it even (IMO) implied so.

Inferring and assuming that any amount of magical radiation damage confers radiation poisoning is, in my opinion, a logical conclusion, based on the fact that elemental damaging effects confer elemental secondary effects. Irradiation is a secondary effect. Logically, if we look at the power of the attack, and compare that to the 4 types of radiation poisoning, we should be able to find a decent secondary effect. That is what my post was based on.

In any event, and with all due respect, no matter how close to knowing the inside rules a person may be, if they don't even know about, and don't read up on a subject before posting, their comments should not have much stake taken out on them. Especially when so little of their posts have any relavence to the game rules. Snow Fox's posts had only the first of multiple paragraphs of actual content, and she opened up her post with something akin to "I didn't even know this was in the rules, but irregardless..."

If I want a bone tumor looked at, I'll ask an Osteopath. If I want a foot problem looked at, I'll ask a Pediatrist. If I want either problem looked at, and I only have a normal practitioner, I want them to do some homework first.

Maybe this will help:

Normal mages summon Muffin Elementals, which have Elemental Attack (Muffin), Elemental Aura (Muffin), and Engulf (Muffin). Really mean Sweettooth Mages summon nasty Cupcake Elementals, that instead of Elemental Attack (Muffin), Elemental Aura (Muffin), and Engulf (Muffin), these dangerous, sugary elementals have Elemental Attack (Cupcake), Elemental Aura (Cupcake), and Engulf (Cupcake).

Muffin damage is resisted with 1/2 impact armor, and has a chance to catch things on muffin. Cupcake damage is only resisted with armor (and other things that specifically save versus cupcake damage), and has a chance of giving things cupcake poisoning. Cupcake poisoning functions mechanically like pathogens. Pathogens state that even if you reduce the power of the attack to 0, you are still contaminated and suffer secondary effects. So if you're hit with a power 8 cupcake attack, even if you reduce the damage to 0, you still are subject to its secondary effects. The reason cupcake mages are so dangerous is that power 8 cupcakes have a secondary effect that causes death in 1-4 days, even if you make your save, because they cause massive diabetical damage and widescale cellular over-sugar-ization.

Does that help?

No.

It has not been established that cupcake damage can induce cupcake poisoning. Cumulative proximity to a cupcake can cause cupcake poisoning, not cupcake damage itself. Also while you are hit by a cupcake attack, you are still subject to secondary effects, said secondary effects is cupcake sickness or light cupcake poisoning and not mild/moderate/severe/deadly upcake poisonings. While the root source of both cupcake sickness and cupcake poisoning may be the same, how either affects you are different and the effects of such are different too. Further, Cupcake Spirits have not been established to cause Cupcake Poisoning, unlike its similarly toxic cousins the Soda and Lollipop which have the Sugar-phylaxis power.


Irradiation is not a secondary effect as defined within the RAW but is instead only a vector. Furthermore, the secondary effects of Radiation damage in and of itself has already been established. Proximity to a nuclear spirit induces irradiation, however, the degree of cumulative irradiation that may cause Deadly Radiation poisoning has not been established by RAW.

Radiation Poisoning may be inferred, but the degree of Radiation Poisoning as a secondary effect is a variable that should depend on how much radiation the character actually receives, not how radioactive the source is.

There's something in this thread that is being ignored. In Augmentation, on page 130, it says that the Power of a pathogen increases by remaining Power after a Disease Resistance Test until a set number of Disease Resistance Tests has been reached, before which the pathogen remains. After the set number of Tests, the Power no longer increases in Power, and after this successive Disease Resistance Tests reduce the Power to 0. Then the Pathogen is gone. Finished. Healed. Given that radiation is supposed to be treated as a pathogen, this should be the mechanism used to deal with it.

Neraph argues that this is not enough to deal with radiation, because the rules as stated in Arsenal (p. 167-170) tell us that radiation from an elemental's attack will stay regardless of successes in Disease Resistance Tests. This is an error based on his assumption, stated in the OP:


Neraph bases his entire argument on our need to follow the text as written in the various books, particularly the equation of radiation to pathogen infection. RAW takes precedence over any interpretation based on real world knowledge. Yet he assumes that despite the fact that text in one place telling us that radiation is to be treated as a pathogen is contradicted by text in another place describing the speed of radiation in a different way from pathogen infection, we have to accept his 'imagining' that they need to be treated the same. This is very much 'the important part'. One cannot hold RAW above all other arguments if RAW is contradictory. No 'imagining makes it so'. It fails in such cases.

Given, for example, that in Arsenal the Speed of mild radiation poisoning is stated in the form "Immediate(1 Month)", and no set number of Disease Resistance Tests is given, two issues must be dealt with. First, a F1 elemental blasted away in 1 Combat Round will not have affected anyone in any detectable way because 3 seconds are too short compared to 1 month. 1 Month of mild radiation increases chances of cancer, etc. Not 3 seconds of it. Something on the order of 864,000 separate attacks by F1 radiation elementals will cumulate to create mild radiation level. THEN you are in trouble and need to seek medical attention.

Second, if radiation is to be treated as a pathogen, it must have that third number, the set number of Disease Resistance Tests. It doesn't have it. Therefore it is different, until RAW is rewritten by someone to make them the same. The nearest we have so far in word from anyone connected to the writing of RAW indicates that it will not be rewritten that way. So ditch the crutch of RAW, because it doesn't hold now and won't in the future.

We are stuck with interpretation, Neraph, and yours does not appear to be carrying the day.

Peter

Actually, the speed works like this. In your example, you take the damage and have to soak power 4 radiation immediately. Every month you have to save again, until the predescribed time limit occurs (of which there is none, which is why I said it doesn't matter, and you should theorhetically be able to get medical attention for it). It doesn't mean after 1 month of exposure you have to soak the damage. You have to soak immediately, then every month repeat until you are "cured."


Mild Radiation Poisoning's speed is Immediate.


This would be the (1 Month).

What Radiation Posioning lacks is this:
An example is Influenza, with a speed of 12 hours (14). So after 12 hours of getting the pathogen, you have to make a test. Even if you reduce the power to 0, you have to make at least 14 tests before you are cured.

If we take it exactly as it's written, Radiation Poisoning's speed of Immediate (1 Month) can mean one of 2 things:
1) You save versus power immediately, and have to resave once a month until cured.
2) You save immediately and are irradiated for one month, after which you are cured.

However, the second option doesn't make sense because Sever Poisoning has a speed of Immediate (1 Day), which would mean you're irradiated longer when exposed to smaller amounts of radiation.

Well we could try to ask you to idetify yourself properly; I mean great dragon name Hobgoblin that looks like a panda, that's confusing!

the less you know, the safer you are

.... Wow I don't know why but this answer gave me a kick

I think SF was merely showing nuclear power and energy the respect it deserves. I think she is trying to inspire someone to make a true nuclear spirit something awsome and terrifying.

Alright, a closer reading of the five (!!) texts involved and your analysis above leads to the following analysis by me:

1.)
The format of the Speed formula for radiation means that the character does an immediate Radiation Resistance Test upon receiving radiation damage (ie. damage that is not dodged). If the damage is not reduced to 0, then the character must do another Test every (period) until it is reduced to 0. Since there is no third number, representing the number of Tests that must be done during which unresisted damage is added to the original damage (the 'disease' is getting worse), no such minimum exists. Therefore, radiation, unlike, say, cholera, doesn't have a time period during which it can peak if not resisted totally, and after which it abates. It's the same intensity from the start.

2.)
Radiation can be resisted totally, and if the damage is reduced to 0 on the first attempt (after some combination of Dodge and Resistance rolls), there is no further danger from the attack. In Arsenal, p. 168-169, the descriptions of the four levels of radiation damage from typical sources of radiation (not radiation elementals) describe the varying levels of ongoing damage that can come from exposure to sources of radiation, and not resisting totally on the first shot. The least severe form of exposure, 'mild', does not require decontamination along with curing/treating, whereas the middle two levels of contamination do. In other words, upon receiving 'moderate' to 'severe' radiation and not resisting it totally on the first shot, the character himself becomes radioactive and poisonous to himself. Ongoing effects accrue until decontamination and curing/treating. For all three of these levels of exposure, staying in the area of radiation will require repeated Resistance Tests. Sooner or later, one of them will not clear all the damage, and then lasting effects accrue. If one is going to experience radiation, it is good to have a high BOD and a protective suit.

Receiving damage from 'deadly' radiation, and not dodging/resisting it totally on the first shot will, as Neraph argues, kill you no matter what you do afterwards. If you stand there in the presence of the radiation, sooner or later you will fail to resist at least one DV of radiation damage, and then you are in the 'walking ghost phase'.

3.)
There is no clear direction in the text as to how to translate the radiation damage from Nuclear Spirits into the four categories of radiation damage in Arsenal. If damage from the attack of one such spirit is resisted fully, then there is no issue, as in all texts radiation damage does nothing to you if it is resisted fully on the first Test. The difficulty arises if some damage is taken. One must determine what level of the four levels of radiation poisoning the character has experienced.

Neraph argues that even a F1 spirit will poison a character with radiation right away even if it's attack is resisted, and there is no saving the character, as the radiation will continue to accrue. This is not true. The GM will have to determine how much radiation the character received from a successful attack by the spirit, based on things like how much damage was unresisted, how the attack was conducted (ranged or melee), the local environment (has the spirit irradiated the room?) and perhaps other factors. The Power ratings of the four levels of radiation poisoning are of limited help, as they don't differ as widely as one could hope, but they may provide a range of DV's to consider.

For example, if a F1 nuclear spirit hits for an unresisted 1 DV of damage, is it reasonable to treat it as even a mild radiation poisoning, as that has a Power of 4? Given the +4 DV for Energy Aura (radiation) it is possible such a spirit could do enough unresisted damage in melee to make the exposure moderate or even severe. Raising the DV up to 8 would be difficult, as the F1 spirit doesn't have all that many dice to attack with, and should most often be simply dodged.

As an aside, it should be noted that the +4 DV of Energy Aura only applies to the spirit's own attack. The damage the Energy Aura afflicts on an opponent if he hits in melee is equal to the Force of the spirit.

4.)
The exact nature of 'cured or treated' is also not clear. Does the Heal spell remove the effects of radiation? It heals damage, but doesn't remove pathogens, so probably not. The Decontamination spell seems to be the way to go if one intends to take on radiation. Note that the spell description (Digital Grimoire, p. 17) shows the spell adding dice to Radiation Resistance Tests, so it would appear from -this- text, the most recent one of all, Neraph, that successfully reducing the Power of the radiation exposure to 0 fulfills the decontamination requirement for the lower levels of exposure.

#####

I do not see nuclear spirits as automatic death sentences to a PC. Radiation is a special and particularly nasty form of damage, and needs to be treated with great care, but it is not the gamebreaking 'Destructor' that Neraph fears.

Now, a F12 nuclear spirit.....

Peter

target wastelands has a lot of good info on radiation damage. some might find a solution in the older rules. it states how many rads you take from radiation based on the damage from an attack, from a radioactive area, from ingesting or inhaling materials, and i think a few others. i haven't seen arsenals so i don't know how in depth or well they did it.

Were I to rule the effects of secondary radiation damage in my game, I would have it as the power of the attack minus radiation resistance equipment/augmentations, and minus the effects of any anti-rad medicines (i.e. - iodine tablets). Regardless of the physical damage done, the effect of the secondary effect is based off of the power of the original attack (much like fire). So if a force 1 Nuclear Spirit hits you with its elemental attack (at force 1), and you resist the damage and are not wearing any sort of radiation protection, you are now irradiated and resist 1 damage. Any further attacks, even if you resist the damage from the blast, will increase the radiation damage you're taking each interval (since irradiation stacks, unlike pathogens).
Of course, if you're wearing a radiation suit and get attacked with a force 1 elemental blast and you resist the damage, the force 1 is immediately negated by the radiation resistance of the suit and you don't suffer the ill effects of irradiation.