I hail from the Deep South. I can tell you that a.) that's really not a good idea, and b.) I think the mental image of somebody doing that is HILARIOUS, if only because of what's going to happen to them next.

I know I've heard that one before in this thread. In what way is it amazing to show restraint over someone arguing that people need to take stuff less seriously? Especially on a forum where flipping out and throwing tantrums would probably violate some of the rules? You guys are all saying "be quiet because the kind of thing you say sparks flame wars." That is the heckler's veto. It's saying that, even though what I'm saying is perfectly reasonable, there are some unreasonable people out there who will take it the wrong way. And for this reason, I must shut my big mouth and say nothing more. I'm sorry, but the people who need to pipe down are the really unreasonable people who can't participate in a civil discussion. So far though, they appear to be imaginary, because they haven't popped up yet.

And comparing this to slavery? I wonder how deliberate that metaphor choice was. Is it because you think that this issue is near the same level, or just to make your example clearer? As you may be aware, people suffered very real and physical injuries during slavery, and I wouldn't say it's justified to tell them to forget about it and stop being such big babies. I mean, can you spot the absurdity in the statement "stop acting like slavery was such a big deal"? But what we're talking about is worlds away from that. It is a dispute between two editions of the same game, both of which still exist and can be freely played by whoever wants to play them, and ignored by whoever wants to ignore them...

What I am suggesting is quite simply that nobody suffered any physical injuries or lasting trauma over the change in editions, on either side. Why would someone flame me for saying that, if it is true? What I am suggesting is that treating the change in editions as a lasting wound is hurting the cause of peace. People use it as an excuse to flame, they say "I flamed because you said something that reopened old wounds and made me bleed all over the place." It's that kind of bullshit that needs to be done away with. Nobody seems to disagree with that, they simply accept that as long as there are flamers out there, it is improper to say things that could make them mad.

Also, there's the argument "stop acting like you know everything." If I was wrong, maybe I should stop pretending I was right. But so far, nobody's saying I'm wrong. They're just saying that certain people disagree with me even if I'm right. And nobody's arguing that those people who would flame over this debate are reasonable--they're saying that these people are so unreasonable that I have to censor myself to avoid angering them, in fact, because they cannot control themselves when they get angry. Again, that is their problem, not mine. If my admonishments to own up to reality are wrong, if someone was permanently injured by this whole debacle, then I'd be glad to retract my statements. But if I'm right, as I suspect, then I think I'm fully justified in acting like it.

The marketing explanation might be true for the Matrix lingo, but I think it's different with the Shadowslang.
Back in the SR3 days, the majority (or at least the most vocal part) of the community kept saying that the Shadowslang was ridiculous and felt like stupid censorship.

I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse, or if you're just genuinely afflicted with some sort of antisocial disorder that keeps you from empathizing in the slightest with others and understanding that some subjects might be sore subjects, and that -- as such -- the polite thing to do as an adult is to just leave them alone.

The point isn't one of slavery versus a new RPG edition, obviously (I thought by taking a purposefully absurd, and mildly amusing, example maybe I could make you realize that some behavior is simply unacceptable, even if, by definition, those responding to that behavior would be in the wrong).

The point is that some topics are known to be inflammatory, and that little good comes from bringing them up just to see if anyone's still pissed off about it. You specifically started this thread (jab, jab) to just test the waters and see if people were still around that were irritated by the edition change (jab, jab), and even in the opening post you acknowledged that not too long ago it was such a touchy subject (jab, jab) that it caused massive flame wars. Then, during the ensuing conversation, (jab, jab) you've done nothing but keep prodding and poking, making it obvious that you knew all along a flame war might happen (jab, jab) as a result of this post, but doing your best to condescend towards anyone who rises to take the (jab, jab) bait.

At best, you've got some sort of social disorder, like I mentioned. You're somehow genuinely not sure how such behavior might be deemed unacceptable or inflammatory, and you're so certain humans always act by logic and reason -- on the fucking internet, of all places -- that you think, no matter how you provoke them, someone else will be to blame if they take offense at your repeated poking-with-a-stick. At worst, you're doing nothing, nothing, but trolling, by purposefully bringing up perhaps the single most inflammatory subject in the history of the Dumpshock Forums, and throwing chum into the water just to see what happens.

Either way, you're not especially worth talking to. I just thought I'd throw my two cents in and point out how ridiculous you were acting. Just have fun jabbing some more, kid. I'll leave you to it, with one quick question...

What good did you think might come from starting this thread? Seriously?

That might very well be true, and if so I can understand the switch then... but it still disappoints me. I think language is one of the best ways to give a feel of uniqueness to culture.

In Robert Jordan's fantasy books The Wheel of Time, he does (I think) a brilliant job is creating an area where people from different countries really do seem different and unique. One of the primary ways he does this is through giving each region its own "dialect." There were times that I had to re-read the dialogue from some of the characters a couple times to understand them because he writes their speech in that "lingo." So for Shadowrun to lose its dialect seems like a loss of uniqueness or "culture" to me.

*Shrug* I don't know. In France (at least in the games I've played) we never used English Shadowslang, so there was no change for us.

If you need someone to tell you your wrong Larme then I think your wrong. I think you are totally in the wrong. I was also trying to be tactful in telling you that everything you have said has been unhelpful to the discussion and poorly written. I tried humor, I tried reasoning, I tried story telling and went out of my way to pander to your remarks by being reasonable. If you need to have someone tell you your wrong... well I think your wrong. I think everything you have posted could be taken as insulting and generally adding smiley faces add insult to injury, so I think your wrong Larme.

It is however not about being wrong or right, it is about letting things die. The topic is a dead horse that got turned into glue and cat food, then those products have been used in other ways and then recycled and probably to the point where another horse has eaten this dead horse and didn't even know it. This thread is obviously a jab at people who think SR4 sucks by basically saying "Where did all the whiners go?" It's crass, it's trolling, and this thread should die. Even if your first intention was not to troll, it has become trolling. I'm not going to tell you to grow up, and I'm not going to insult you or be baited by this post, but I think the best option is for everyone to just back away from this thread and let it dive into obscurity of page 5 and on.

Larme, essentially what I see is an arguement about your right to argue. It's rather pointless, and started that way to begin with. Please let it drop.

We wenr around and around on this one. Fact is, though: love it or hate it, it's part of what made Shadowrun unique. If you were at a con, and heard someone say: "Chummer", you instantly knew he was a Shadowrun fan. Just like "Smeg" is permanently associated with Red Dwarf, "Drek" makes gamers think Shadowrun. You may love it or hate it, but the association is there.

Only if you reside in an Anglophone country. Our friendly Dumpshock Germans would disagree. And you don't want to make zee Deutsch Dumpshockers angry...

ahem . . i allways think shadowrun when i read/hear the word drek . .

Oh no! There went my theory.

yes well, might be the fact that i mostly read the english stuff . . aside from the novels, obviously . .

Regardless of who's in the wrong, I wasn't the one who brought personal attacks into it. I won't respond to personal attacks, because you don't know me any nothing you suppose about my interpersonal skills can hurt me. And so far, nobody has actually disagreed with me. So far as I can tell, everyone agrees with my words, but does not agree that I should say them. If you think that just labeling something as a "sore subject" is a valid reason for someone to act like a baby about it, then make the argument tough guy. Don't just whap me with a axiom and tell me to shut up.

As for the purpose of this thread, if you'd read it, you'd see that I've already admitted that starting it was probably dumb and pointless of me. I was curious about the answer to the question, and I foolishly thought that maybe the controversy was over. I wasn't trying to stir things up, but stirred up they were. I've come back into it because of people treating this issue as some kind of taboo, where we must speak quietly lest we injure the fragile psyches of the poor... someones. I'm still not sure who they are. But I guess their mental health is more important than honesty.

Personally, I think you have been deliberately trolling from the very first post.

God Larme you just don't know when to shut up. It doesn't matter if someone says your wrong you'll just take it as a personal attack so therefor whatever they say is invalid. There is no talking or debating with you. So sit in your "I'm right" box of 1 and enjoy the view. I'm done talking to you and I'll be sure to just ignore whatever say in any thread from now on. I think it will be the best for both parties involved. I don't even want to look at this thread anymore because I'm so sick of this whole thing.

And if it is happening while the Technomancer is also rigging. and the team is in combat it would be interesting. IPs happen at the same time regardless if it is Matrix, Astral or physical. Weird thing is in the groups I've played, there's always been a decker.




Hey, were different GMs...then again I said almost good (a qualifier). But then again almost good can mean that they are just a shade less evil than MCT, and saints compared to Aztechnology. Speaking of which, we need a poll for the most good and evil corps. (it also could be viewed as the corp who has had the most successful PR!)

*puts popcorn away*

Are you suggesting that Critias saying "you have a social disorder" is not a personal attack? If so, I'd like to hear your argument. I never invent personal attacks to avoid addressing someone's argument, and Critias is the only one who's attacked me personally so far. Nobody is saying that I'm wrong, all they're doing is repeating the words "shut up," in different permutations. There's an easy way to make me shut up, and it's to stop keeping this thread alive by making spurious arguments for me to respond to.

Actually, several people have flat out stated that they think you are wrong. You just choose to ignore them.

As I saw it, people weren't disagreeing on whether it's right for people to throw trantrums about the edition change. They were just telling me to be more sensitive and not talk about it. But I'm not perfect, I might have misinterpreted or overlooked what some people said. If you've got a point to make Fortune, you could give me a few quotes and demonstrate my mistake, instead of contributing nothing but a single glib sentence. I'm not telling you what to do, just giving you a friendly pointer on how to advance the debate. If anyone ever demonstrates that I'm wrong, I'll admit it in a heartbeat. I have no intrinsic need to be right, I just refuse to act like I've been put in my place when the only arguments leveled against me are fallacious.

You want an example? There's one for you. You've just characterized all us naysayers as "throwing tantrums". In fact, you decided to dismiss all our arguments with "SR4 SUX" in the title of this thread.

Now, did flamewars happen? Yes, and there were offenders on both sides. No one is denying that. On the other hand, I get accused of being a SR3 troll all the time, and I usually don't post anything as inflammatory. Snide, yes; but not normally openly insulting.


Don't worry, happens to you all the time.
(And yes, just in case a smiley wasn't enough, that *was* a joke.)

The fact is, shadowtalk is a part of Shadowrun. Without it, something feels like it's missing. Love it or hate it, it's a part of the Shadowrun experience. Combine it with all the other changes I mentioned, and it starts to seriously add up. This is New Coke, people. It's similar to the old, but it's not the same thing at all.

So what if the arguments are fallacious? Why do you just refuse to act like you've been put in your place, even if you think that the arguments are fallacious? Have you considered that your arguments about other people's arguments being fallacious are in themselves fallacious as well?

And that's the point. Some people feel that they already have demonstrated that you are wrong. You do not feel that they have and you are aggravating the situation by stating that their arguments are fallacious or glib. I am not telling you what to do, just giving you a friendly pointer on the points you are evidently missing. I doubt you'd allow yourself to admit that anyone has demonstrated that you are wrong, so you'd not need to admit it.

I've entered into it because of people not treating this issue as a serious subject where people have been warned/flamed/etc, where we need not weigh our words carefully because it is not a faultline issue. But I guess your curiousity is more important.

Hi Larme, you might remember me, I'm the moderator that told you to drop the topic a few hours ago and stop arguing for arguing's sake. I'm also the guy you blatantly ignored, much like you've been doing with everyone else here today. It's called selective listening, and it annoys the crap out of me. So this thread is going bye-bye. See you after you've had a chance to reflect on the wisdom of starting pointless threads and continuing them after being warned otherwise.

I realize that this isn't the nicest or most professional way of saying this, and that there are probably better ways I could have gone about this. But to be honest, your behavior warrants it in my opinion.