So, I'm trying to understand a lot of things within the Shadowrun 4th Edition text, and instead of unintentionally spamming this board with multiple threads asking tons of questions, I'm going to try and compile all of my misunderstandings into one thread, and have them answered one at a time.

I think first and foremost is, do any of you ever play in IRC or AIM chatrooms and/or are there any that I could join/watch just to see how the flow of game play goes?

Secondly, I'd just like to point out how amazing I've found this board to be. Out of all the forums I've ever been on, the people here are not only attentive, knowledgeable, and creative, but nice and articulate. I've been playing DnD for about four years now, and I've been role playing for as long as I've been on chat rooms. Goodness, I remember being 11 years old when Yahoo Chat was first getting big, and going into the role playing room.

Through different cyberpunk influences, I've come to really want to GM a Shadowrun 4th edition campagin, and teach my friends who all play DnD the system and whatnot, and as much of an undertaking as it is (although I'm not starting it until next year once everyone can understand the system), I need to first be able to understand everything myself.




First problem I encountered, involves movement. When a character declares he is walking or running does he have to do it before his actions, or after? Likewise, if he says he's walking 10 m forwards, wants to ready his weapon, and then fire, where does he fire from? Do you do the movement first, then the other two actions, or does it all happen at once? Secondly, what if he declares that he's walking after he's fired his gun as a simple action, do you not move the full 10 m per turn?

Here is a map I made to illustrate what I'm talking about: LINK For reference, one hex = 1 meter.

First, welcome to the boards.

Second, if you want to save yourself a lot of harassment, get familiar with the Search function. The basic search generally sucks, but if you use the "more search options" feature and search by key words in "search title only" mode you will find that most basic questions are rehashed on a monthly or bimonthly basis and someone has probably already asked most questions you might have.

Third, the BBB says that a player declares his intent to move during the "declare actions" part of his action phase, which precedes everything else. If he intends to move at all, the movement modifiers apply to his entire action. I generally assume the any simple or complex actions the character takes while moving occur at the midpoint of his movement. This is of coarse a meta-game construct. I just arbitrarily use his mid point for calculating range, cover, etc. If your player specifically states that he wants to shoot then move, or move then shoot, that's fine too. There is no loss of movement for such action, as far as I can tell. Hope that helps.

Edit: There is also an interesting house rule that I experimented with back in the day: Have everyone who is going to move during a given pass move half their allotted distance, then resolve all actions in initiative order and then everyone completes the rest of their movement. Gives things a Matrix-style "bullet time" feel and makes cover and movement way more tactical.

Screw the Search. It is finicky even at the best of times. If you have questions, ask away.

welcome to the site, I just want to say it is nice to see I am not alone being new to this game, though you seem to have a better understanding of it then me;P

anyway I just wanted to wish you welcome and very good luck with GM'ing the game, I ran my first game little more than a month ago, and started our first campaign now. Hope you get very good games going and get your D&D friends converted if you like the system:)

Metapunk

To get the most out of the search function, you really have to know where the old threads are buried.

Here's some stuff that might be useful:
Knasser's matrix stuff
Frank Trollman's matrix stuff

Rule problems Slightly dated, flamey

Re-done archetypes these actually obey the rules, unlike the ones in the book

320 point sample characters

Frank Trollman's Character Creation House rules

Various maunderings from me about modelingbigger guns and bigger vehicles in SR4.

One of the endless "how much for runs pay?" threads.
Sample run payment calculator

How to make the barrens dangerous

I have to give a try to your houserule.

In bocca al lupo.

I have issues with the movement rates listed in the book. They seem a bit too high. By RAW anyone can walk 100m in around half a minute, or 1km in 5 minutes. That's around 7.5 mph! If you adjust for running, you get a speed of almost 20mph, without needing to make a runnning test. Ne'er mind, that's my problem.

I don't recall whether it's an artifact from playing SR3, but in my group we divide total distance moved in a turn by number of IPs, to determine how far a character moves in that IP. Usually this means the distance moved is insignificant in terms of range modifiers, and it doesn't matter when during transit a weapon is fired. (In the case of your example Joe only gets to move 3 or 4 of his movement squares before firing, which has far less impact on range than having him move 10 hexs. On his next IP he would move another 3 hexs, and he would finally complete his movement in his last IP).

Additionally I only apply cover modifers if a character is either not moving from cover, or is moving behind cover. If they spend their action running from one piece of cover to another, perhaps shooting on the run, they don't gain any benefit from cover, despite starting and ending their turn in cover; since I consider all actions to take place almost simultaneously, and any shots in their direction will likely take place during their run between cover.

@Shadowfox

Good luck for converting your buddies, in my experience not everyone makes the jump, there are peoples that just want an happy go lucky, completely dissociated by reality constrictions type of game; one in which their characers just do what they like without concerns of reasons or consequences.
It can be done in SR too. And can be good fun too (dragons, AIs, elves, guns, spytoys, fastcars, mages, ect., alot of potential for action packed shootouts, carchases, aerial battles and whatnot), but seriously it's just D&D 2070 than. SR is more cerebral in that the enviroment doesn't allow actions to have no consequences, players can't just bust doors shoot everyone loot everything, do what they were payed for and go home like nothing happened (also, meccanicaly speaking they can't just charge in action mindlessly because there is no can't touch me armor and no hundreds of HP) you have to think alot (from combat tactics to whos toes you may be stomping on) and be wary of doublecrosses; it's something not everyone can cope with, some people just want to turn of the brain and let the dices run feeling like a child again.
I realy hope your player can enjoy SR, and don't worry if you're not perfectn nobody is born knowing how to walk, but everyone learnes eventualy, just have fun and things will adjust themselves as time passes.

In bocca al lupo.

This is the main reason I instituted the aforementioned house rule. I wanted my players to think about how movement exposed them to enemy fire.

Nice to be on the same wavelength, Method!

Movement is something that can get bogged down in arguements all too easily, especially in a tactical game like SR. Best to choose a system and stick with it.

thats a bad sign. iirc, older dumpshock forums have died a while after the search breaks...

I wouldn't worry too much though. Search hasn't actually functioned properly since the inception of this incarnation of Dumpshock.

destined for fail

Before you run out and start applying dozens of house rules, I would encourage you to try the RAW first. Give it a few sessions. Read the rules with a "reasonable man" interpretation. Then if obvious problems arise with the rules and your group's play style, then you can start to tweak them to suit your needs.

This is how it's written in SR4.

What if your group decides to go hunting Blood Mages and Toxic Shaman for Dunkelzan's Institute for Magical Research? 1 million per live person (easy with Slab Capsules from a sniper rifle) will be a huge payoff for little expenses. I'm doing what I can with mean, nasty mages (for example, they're whetting their teeth on a Troll Drake Adept Blood Mage with Cannibalize and Power Bleed who ate his way to max physical stats and ate Immunity [Toxins], Improved Senses [Sonar], and Regeneration), but they're still gunna take him down with little fuss.

But what are your costs in finding a blood mage, getting your team there, incapacitating the mage, and then shipping him to the DIMR? In addition, can your group up front all the capital costs of the operation?

And what happens when it goes wrong? Dos your team have the ability to deal with a pissed mage who, more than likely, is more powerful thn all of you combined? You say that like it is just "I'm gonna walk down to the park and get a ice cream". Replace Ice Cream with blood mage.....

Some how I don't think it is that easy.

Well all you need is to do is clone each member of the team before hand so that you have backup organs at the ready...

I wish I could find it, but I recall that buried somewhere in the text of one of the many Shadowrun books is a little tidbit about how the DIMR has a specific 'Wanted List' of Blood Mages (and maybe Toxics as well). They only actually pay out for people on that list, and not just for any random Blood Mage.

Or just be an evil GM.
It's not like the DIMR is promising to double Gitmo the blood mages. Maybe they'll just check his heartbeat and then let him go...

Actualy it is fine bringing in random blood mages if they ARE blood mages (you are hired to find a missing person and stumble on the blood mage who's about to sacrifice their mark, if the runners can prove he/she is a blood mage why shouldn't they recive the money?), the list was created to avoid unjustified aggressions on innocent mages by greedy bastards who want the money of the bounty.
The books could be Dragons of the 6th world (the section on the Draco Fondation) and the Big D will; at least I think.

In bocca al lupo.

Maybe, but that's not how I recall it.

Alrighty then. Thanks for the huge amount of feedback already.



QUESTION NUMBER TWO:


BBB p.132 on Combat Turn Sequence:

"...If more than one character has the same Initiative Score, they go at the same time."

Now, I understand that I could just have them roll again or something to decide who goes next, but I want to try it completely RAW first and see how it goes.

This to me is a bit confusing: if both people are going at the same time, when do you apply wound modifiers and the like?


QUESTION NUMBER THREE:

About Vehicle Combat:

Alright, so you do the Opposed Vehicle Test first. Since a Chase Combat turn is 20 regular combat turns long, do you still go through those 20 combat turns with everybody else in the car? "Drivers must spend one complex action each chase turn controlling the vehicle" does this mean for the other 19 combat turns they can do other things? This confuses me.

Secondly, "The winner chooses the engagement range he will have against all vehicles that scored fewer hits than he did."

Alright, so does this mean that, if there are 2 cars, and one wins the test, he's going to be at whatever range he chooses from the other car for that entire chase turn (20 combat rounds?)

Also, when they choose the engagement of all other cars, do they just choose one engagement range for all the other cars involved, or each one separately?

Lets say there are 3 cars, all of which are against each other, car 1 beats car 2, who beats car 3, respectively.

If car 1 chooses short range, is he at short range for both cars? Or does he choose two different engagement ranges for each other car?

Secondly, assuming the former is true, and car 1 chooses close range, what if car 2 chooses to be long range from car 3?



I think what would really help is to just see a transcript of a car chase using SR4 rules.

You only use the modifiers that are affecting the character at the time of the character's action. Since the two people are acting at the same time, their current action (if effective) would still have no affect on their opponent's current action, and vice versa.

Well, you can either apply modifiers all before or all after, but you should apply them the same to both people.


No, Chase Combat (which is a special subset of vehicle combat) is supposed to be an "approximation" where you don't play out every turn. Basically, everyone only takes actions once every 20 turns in that case. I believe the "20 combat turns" line in the book really just applies to how much "real time" the chase is taking, 20 turns = 60 seconds (1 minute).


Yes, but you don't actually play out every round. I don't think I've ever had an SR combat last 20 rounds. When in "chase combat" mode, everyone takes 1 action for each "chase" round (20 regular combat rounds). Chase Combat is supposed to be more "cinematic" than regular "tactical combat." You do not play every combat round as normal, the combat now moves to "chase rounds."


I would say the drivers choose an engagement range for each "opposing" vehicle. If they get more hits on their driving test then they get their chosen engagement range against that vehicle. That could lead to some crazy reality-breaking situations where Car 1 gets Close range against Car 2 and Car 3, but Car 2 choose to be at Long range from Car 3 and wins. A way to resolve that case would be to just give the engagement range to the overall "winner" of the Vehicle Test. So if Car 1 chose Close range against Car 2 & 3, and got the most hits out of all of them, then Car 2 is in Close range to Car 3 because the result of Car 1 "overwrote" his choice. That could work.

QUESTION NUMBER FOUR:


What do you see on your AR display when you connect to the matrix? I'm still not getting the picture. Is there a small window that shows your persona interacting with the node? And what does the node look like? What if there are 5 people on that node, would you see 5 personas?


QUESTION NUMBER FIVE:

Can someone duel wield two Single Shot weapons, one in each hand, and fire each one as a simple action on there one turn.

I hope it is OK if I add a question.

I don't understand how the number of programs limit response. I am a formula guy and this just doesn't cut it.

Response may be aff ected if you run too many programs.
For every x number of programs you have actively running,
where x = System rating, your Response is reduced by 1. So if
you’re running 10 programs with a System 5, your Response
will be reduced by 2.

So does that mean if you have a system 5 comlink you can run 5 programs without affecting the response. However if you are running 6-9 programs you get -1 to response. And if your running 10-14 programs you get a -2 to response? Or perhaps I am rounding the opposite way. Lets put it in a formula for what I think the above passage is supposed to mean.

Negative Response = System / Programs Running (Round up or down?)

That looks right.

I think you're misunderstanding the concept behind Augmented Reality. It works as Virtual Reality does but there is no direct neural interface so while a user wouldn't have the speed of use that VR offers, AR allows a user to interact with both the Matrix and "meatspace" at the same time. A typical AR user may have his AR image link installed in a set of goggles. He puts on his goggles and sees the world around him as it really is. Once he activates the image link's connection to his commlink, AR becomes active. Certain buildings that have been pre-programmed by designers will appear different (example: in Seattle, the default AR view is that of the Emerald City of Oz). Look at a hot dog vendor and he may appear as a pink gorilla. Someone driving down the highway may appear to be gliding along the ground on a magic carpet. Pop up windows will float in the air like three-dimensional billboards. Items that have been built with IR tags embedded in them may look different. For example a tube of toothpaste in real life may turn into a dancing, anthropomorphic tooth dressed in a hat like Porthos from The Three Musketeers in Augmented Reality.

Each Personal Area Network is essentially it's own node or nodes and appears however the PAN's owner decides it should. When the user has his commlink active he is, for lack of a better word, "wearing" his PAN like a suit.

You can also view the Matrix as an Augmented Reality overlay and interact with it as one would in VR but without the sensory input (other than sight and sound and limited physical feedback from AR Gloves and other paraphernalia).

Yup. Typically, this means they'll be at Long or Close range, there's not much use for Medium. Vehicles can teleport from Long to Close range instantly if they get a good roll, regardless of speed. This is known as the "Picard Maneuver".

Technically, the winner sets the engagement range for each car separately. So, if you're being chased by a biker gang, if one of them defeats you in the opposed test, they all can move to Close range.


Car 1 sets all the ranges. The rules simply aren't designed for more than two vehicles. As you demonstrated, trying to set multiple ranges for multiple vehicles is a nightmare.

Yes. However, you take an off-hand penalty, and may be required to split your dice pool.

in other words, cain is one of those that dislike the new rules, and likes to take potshots at them...

In other words, Hobgoblin can't find anything wrong with my analysis, and is taking a potshot at me.

Seriously, where am I wrong? Every rule works exactly as I described.

A good way to look at AR is the HUDs in most FPS games mashed together with facebook, wikipedia,consumer reports, and a bunch of similar info sites. You have additional displays and bits of into added to your FOV. The displays will typically be made so that they don't block out the real world, though this is not an actual requirement (see AR spam, etc).

So imagine walking down the street and everyone you see has a link to their Facebook profile (or whatever). When you look at 'stuff' you may or may not get bombarded by advertisements for that 'stuff' depending on how your rig is setup and how good your firewalls are. If your rig is setup for it, you may also get more complete reality over-writes, for example, that store you go into has a much more impressive AR decor that in RL. For example, in RL, the sortes walls may simply be blank, but in AR they have all sorts of CG artwork on them. In general, AR/VR displays are not misstakeable for reality because they lack sufficient definition, resolution, etc. However, the tech does exist to generate such artifacts, they just require a significant investment in computing power (See UV hosts).

In addition there can be things that are only there in AR (thay other people may or may not be able to see). For example, you may have an AR dog that always follows you around. If you have the 'ware for it, you can do things like pet the dog and feel its fur.


Yes, note that they will normally take the off hand penalty for firing the second shot using their off hand (unless they have something that negates the penalty, anyway).

My player has the ambidextrous quality.


So, just for the sake of example lets say someone has an open commlink, if I look at his PAN in AR, and I want to send my persona to his commlinks node to sneak inside, and fail, and his persona enters cybercombat with me, am I going to see the two personas fighting in the space in front of me?

What if I access one node, and then jump to another one, do I just see my small persona guy floating in the air?

Have you ever seen the movie "Minority report", with Tom Cruise? They use AR in the malls. Basically, whenever you look at things, an image is overlaid on it. It then starts to interact with you: in this case, sending you customized advertisements.

So, when you access a node, you do so by physically walking up to it. You can't "jump" from node to node, since everything is overlaid on top of reality.

Yes, I have seen it and it's amazing.

So basically, lets say real quick here



Character> (Wireless Node) ------------------- (Wireless node 2)-----wired-----(Encrypted Wired Node)

My character is looking at a node at a mall, that has various functions, maps, whatnot, would my persona, interacting with the first node, be seen in AR? And what about other users, would all of their personas be seen?

Secondly, what if I, using the range of the commlink to reach the second wireless node (even though I'm standing further away) what would I see in that case? Or are wireless nodes only accessable in AR if you are close to them, due to the image you see being to far away? And what would you see in your AR HUD if you wanted your persona to travel from the wireless node 2, to the enrypted wired node that's behind the wall?


Also, what is the range Augmented reality can be seen? It says a commlink has a range of 1 mile?

The Matrix chapter makes it clear that extraneous AR images are filtered out (or at least, tries to filter them out). So, you'd see the first node, since that was what you're looking at. You could see the personas of many other users if you choose, but they wouldn't "come into focus" unless you're paying attention to them. Like in the movie, the store's agent persona didn't start talking to him until he looked at it for a moment. Your spam filter [tries to] keep the level of information down, so you won't be overwhelmed.

You could see its ARO if you focused in on it, but it might not respond to you until you get closer. You might be able to "pull it up" if it allows you to link to it at that range. As for the encrypted node, you wouldn't be able to see it at all, since it's behind a wall. If you managed to detect it, you theoretically could place a commcall to it; but in practice it wouldn't respond to you without hacking it.

A commlink has a range based on its Signal rating; you can find the chart on p212. The catch here is that you're limited by the range of the weaker device, so even if you have a Signal of 6, you need to get within 3 meters of a Signal 0 device to interact with it. So, a lot of the questions you ask depend on the Signal of the device in question. To use your original example, you're within range of the first node, so you can interact with it. You're out of range of the second node, meaning it won't respond to you in AR.

Note that you can (technically) interact with anything that has a matrix connection from anywhere else in the matrix. So for example, you are shopping somewhere and see a particularly cool thingy. You can call up your friend who is elsewhere in the world and show them the AR advertisement from that thingy as well. Depending on how your friend rolls (that is, how they normally operate) you may see an AR representation of your friend appear next to you once you get the call connected. Depending on their settings and yours, other random people on the street may be able to see your friends AR representation as well.

As a much simpler example, take a look at the user settings in Dumpshock. You can normally see a list of whose logged on, and what stuff they are currently looking at (based on their last click), and you get the little lit up guy next to their username. But notice in the board settings, in your controls, that you can do stuff like tell Dumpshock not to show you as online, not show other peoples sigs, and all sorts of other stuff. So a very large number of your questions are really answered by what is the default setting in (Windows) and how many users monkey with those default settings?

So, lets say you are standing in a mall, looking at its AR directory. Since no one really cares if they are seen looking at the malls directory, you might be able to see the personas of anyone else who is looking at the directory (as long as their privacy settings allow them to be seen, anyway). If, for example, you are looking at the online catalog of 'Helga's House of Pain', then you probably can't see everyone else who is also logged on.

Also check out Jonny Numonic or even the Terminator movies when they show what the terminators see also for full VR check out Lawnmower man

I have another question. If I am in full VR mode does my cyber/bioware still count to increase my stats when doing stuff?

Keep in mind that since this is a 1 minute turn there is alot of jockeying around for position. So going from long to close is not that big of a deal.

In the case of a three car chase, I'd do it like a dogfight where you slect your target (Car 2 chooses car 1, Car 3 chooses car 2, and Car 1 chooses car 3) and roll against them, if you beat them you choose the range. If car 2 beats car 1 and car 3 beats car 1, both car 2 and car 3 can decide what range they are at in relation to car 1. If car 3 beats car 2 then he decides his relation to car 2 which while conter intuitive has no bearing on his distance to car 1).

Yeah, Cain I like 4th ed, but the chase rules need work as it can getr confusing with multiple vehicles. If it is one group against the car it is easy all are rolling against the one car. But a 3 way or 4 way could get mess (GM advice, avoid it like the plague). I think pilots refer to it as a furball. The history channel has a thing on dogfights, watch it sometime, and when running a chase scene and IMHO it should have a similar feel.

I think you've hit it on the head. In the case you mention, cars 2 and 3 can be within Close range of car 1, while being Long range with respect to each other. That's not just counter-intuitive, it's a mess to deal with. Adding a 4th car to the mix would make things even more complex.

You don't get the multiple init pass benefit of stuff like wired reflexes, synaptic boosters, etc but the raw stat boots you get from cyberware and bioware are still 'useful' in VR. So, for example, your platelet factory will help you resist the damage from black IC and your cerebral booster will still be raising your logic, should you ever be required to actually roll anything related to logic while in VR.

To go back up the page a little - dual weilding pistols.

In addition to any off-hand penalties, recoil penalties also stack. Hence, when you fire your second SS pistol you suffer a -1 penalty even if you are ambidextrous.

No. It means that if you have a system 5 commlink then the fifth program you run reduces your Response by 1.

If (number of active programs) = system rating, then reduce Response by 1.

This is also true for the tenth, fifteenth, twentieth and so on.

Note that, per the FAQ, this reduction in Response doesn't impact on your System rating.

Really??? I missed that part. Could someone give a run down on the thing that give a bonus init pass and where they are limit to working? (And where it layout in the rules, because I've looked and must have missed them) Thanks

This is my guess. On the additional IP pass things it will state that it works in the matrix specifically. If not it does not apply to matrix and only physical. To follow that question. Is there anything that gives + IP to both at the same time?

Use AR, then VR IP doesn't matter, and you can't get blackhammered.

AR uses physical Initiative + IPs, VR uses matrix Initiative + IPs. There are no increases to both at the same time. It´s good to be a rigger.