Full Version: Bone Lacing
Is it ever explained why bone lacing costs essence? Is it purely game balance, or does the lacing communicate with the brain in some way?
Bones have nerves around them. This is why it hurts when you break one. Getting your entire skeleton laced with kevlar, plastic, ceramic, or a metal is a very intrusive process. It significantly alters your aura from the aural template, and disrupts nervous tissue surrounding the bones.
Ergo, Essence Loss. :spin:
Ergo, Essence Loss. :spin:
| QUOTE (Nion) |
| Is it ever explained why bone lacing costs essence? Is it purely game balance, or does the lacing communicate with the brain in some way? |
Do you know how many bones are there in your body? Lacing all of them is going to cause a big chunk of Essense, especially if you are lacing your skull and spinal column.
Hydraulic Jacks don't connect to the brain. They connect to the cyberleg, which in turn connects to the -- Oh, wait.
It isn't that it's connecting to your brain (Which I think everything does in some manner), it's that you're replacing your body with something that isn't your body. Make sense?
It isn't that it's connecting to your brain (Which I think everything does in some manner), it's that you're replacing your body with something that isn't your body. Make sense?
I think I prefer the neurological answer, personally. The replacement of body parts reason sounds like a cop out, like they had just thought up some arbitrary excuse.
And what other reason is there? If you lose your arm and get a clonal replacement, you don't lose Essence from it. However, if you get a Cyberarm, you lose Essence.
If you get a Cerebral Booster, Mnemonic Enhancer, Synaptic Accelerator, or any bioware that affects the nervous system, you don't lose Essence. Funny, huh?
Now, if by your views, I somehow got a Cerebral Booster, not only do I use up Bio Index, but now I use Essence too? That's worse than SR2's ruling on Awakened characters and Bioware (They lose Bio and Essence).
If you get a Cerebral Booster, Mnemonic Enhancer, Synaptic Accelerator, or any bioware that affects the nervous system, you don't lose Essence. Funny, huh?
Now, if by your views, I somehow got a Cerebral Booster, not only do I use up Bio Index, but now I use Essence too? That's worse than SR2's ruling on Awakened characters and Bioware (They lose Bio and Essence).
A cyberarm has to be neurally connected.
Yes. So does a Cerebral Booster. And a cloned arm. Your point?
No, no it doesn't. bioware uses naturally existing connections and requires no alteration to the brain.
Which is why it doesn't take Essence, but Bio Index. That point is proven. Now prove why Bone Lacing shouldn't take Essence. You're putting something that isn't natural into your body.
If it were completely natural, it would cause neither Essence loss or Bio Index usage.
If it were completely natural, it would cause neither Essence loss or Bio Index usage.
| QUOTE (tanka @ Jan 4 2004, 01:38 PM) |
| If it were completely natural, it would cause neither Essence loss or Bio Index usage. |
A 'completely natural' replacement arm, or even liver causes no loss of Bio-Index.
| QUOTE (Nion) |
| Is it ever explained why bone lacing costs essence? Is it purely game balance, or does the lacing communicate with the brain in some way? |
What does communication with the brain have to do with essence loss?
Bonelacing significantly alters the body's original function, particularly the toughness of the bones. The body's True Pattern is thus significantly altered.
Even if it's an OOC thing, SR really needs some of Earthdawn's descriptions of patterns included in it, at least to explain essence loss.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
A 'completely natural' replacement arm, or even liver causes no loss of Bio-Index. |
That's what I said.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| That's what I said. |
Yeah I know...now! I'm either blind, tired, or too fucking depressed to read properly.
Move along. Nothing to see here.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Yeah I know...now! I'm either blind, tired, or too fucking depressed to read properly. Move along. Nothing to see here. |
S'OK man. I'm sick and should be heading to bed soon. Need that blasted thing they call "sleep," whatever it is.
Sleep is for the weak.
Alternately, if you're a student (or employed at certain jobs), sleep is for the week.
~J
Alternately, if you're a student (or employed at certain jobs), sleep is for the week.
~J
The first couple of pages of M&M (I think) state that while making the 3rd ed they decided that essence loss came from things communicating with the brain. But still, many things that cost essence do not communicate with the brain.
| QUOTE |
| If it were completely natural, it would cause neither Essence loss or Bio Index usage. |
Time for another stupid noob question by joker
How does essence differ from bio index?
if you want my .02
personally think alot of the essence thing is just a game balancer as are alot of things in the game.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Sleep is for the weak. Alternately, if you're a student (or employed at certain jobs), sleep is for the week. ~J |
hey, that's my line!
no, really it is. :P
Essence would be your astral makeup, how much your "soul" can take before it snaps from having a cyber-fragging-toothbrush.
Bio index is how much your body can take before it goes..."Hey, these aren't /my/ parts..."
But yes, it is a game balance issue, with some legitimate explanation.
Bio index is how much your body can take before it goes..."Hey, these aren't /my/ parts..."
But yes, it is a game balance issue, with some legitimate explanation.
ok im pretty sure that when you lose esssence you also lose magic as well. essence goes from 6 to 5 so your magic goes from 6 to 5. But how does Bio index affect magic?
Bio index causes "virtual magic loss", which is the same as the real thing except once you hit 0 you don't become a mundane, you can still initiate your way out of the hole. Depending on GM interpretation you may or may not also be able to use all your adept powers as long as the cost of the powers in use at a given time doesn't exceed your virtual magic rating.
Currently it causes this virtual loss at a rate of 1/2 bio index.
~J
Currently it causes this virtual loss at a rate of 1/2 bio index.
~J
Because there are still foriegn structures in your body inhibiting the mana flow. The mundane doesn't give a shit about this aural impact, but to the awakened, it's the difference between blowing up their head and blowing up your own.
| QUOTE |
| In game terms, bioware reduces an Awakened character's Magic rating in a way similar to Essence loss. Magic is reduced by the character's Bio Index divided by 2 (round down). |
I'm pretty sure according to the above errata that it also means it's no longer a virtual loss of magic.
| QUOTE (Connor) |
| I'm pretty sure according to the above errata that it also means it's no longer a virtual loss of magic. |
The errata doesn't actually come out and say that. It doesn't even imply it. I would think a change that big would get some kind of mention.
I guess I may have to break out my books and see then. The key word there might be 'similar'. Since that implies it's not the same. Perhaps that's what I get for posting without having bothered to break out Man and Machine lately.
The errata reads as follows:
p. 78 Bioware and the Awakened [4]
Replace the third, fourth and fifth paragraphs with the following:
The removed paragraphs include the description of "virtual reduction in Magic Rating". Since that description is now gone, there is no longer a virtual loss of Magic.
p. 78 Bioware and the Awakened [4]
Replace the third, fourth and fifth paragraphs with the following:
The removed paragraphs include the description of "virtual reduction in Magic Rating". Since that description is now gone, there is no longer a virtual loss of Magic.
Damn, I was just about to post that.
ed- The errata does say so explicitly, too. "Magic reduction from bioware functions like other forms of Magic loss-adepts lose some of their powers, for example."
ed- The errata does say so explicitly, too. "Magic reduction from bioware functions like other forms of Magic loss-adepts lose some of their powers, for example."
| QUOTE (OurTeam) |
| The errata reads as follows: p. 78 Bioware and the Awakened [4] Replace the third, fourth and fifth paragraphs with the following: The removed paragraphs include the description of "virtual reduction in Magic Rating". Since that description is now gone, there is no longer a virtual loss of Magic. |
And that's what I get for posting without checking!
It's actually a good thing™ in my opinion to get rid of the 'virtual' crap.
You know, I completely read past that section of errata awhile back. Yay for us both!
| QUOTE (Connor) |
| You know, I completely read past that section of errata awhile back. Yay for us both! |
I'm glad you brought it up.
| QUOTE (Fortune) |
| It's actually a good thing™ in my opinion to get rid of the 'virtual' crap. |
I couldn't agree with you more
| QUOTE (Nion) |
| The first couple of pages of M&M (I think) state that while making the 3rd ed they decided that essence loss came from things communicating with the brain. But still, many things that cost essence do not communicate with the brain. |
This is mostly correct. Have a quote.
| QUOTE (M&M @ p.7) |
| Cyberware needs to be implanted and connected to the neuropathways, unlike pins and pacemakers, which have no need to talk to the brain. So the unique thing about cyberware is that it's a non-natural implant that talks to the brain. So this machine--metal, ceramic, polymers and other future-tech stuff--must be connected to the 'ol fleshy gray matter. This is how cyberware differs from all other implants, and it is here that Essence is lost. |
Why does Bone Lacing cause Essence loss, you ask? Does it not hurt when you break a bone? Those nerves must be reconnected to the laced bones, thusly causing a loss of Essence.
Wait. I'm confused now. Are you saying that with the errata there is NO magic loss from bio-ware?
Thanos
Thanos
There is magic loss, just not virtual magic loss (Which you could still Initiate out of).
The magic loss from bioware is now just as real as the magic loss from reduced essense. If by bioware and cyberware you reach a magic rating of zero, then you are fully mundane.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Do you know how many bones are there in your body? |
"There are 215 bones in the human body. That's one."
the real question is, how is titanium lacing more invasive/disruptive than, say, kevlar, ceramic, or plastic lacing?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| the real question is, how is titanium lacing more invasive/disruptive than, say, kevlar, ceramic, or plastic lacing? |
Good question. Uh...
It's... Uh... Heavier? Wait, that contradicts my posts in the Lacing+Stealth thread...
Uh... Improvement? I mean, uh... It just... Does! So there!
| QUOTE (Mr. Man) |
| "There are 215 bones in the human body. That's one." |
"Eeeehh! Sorry doc, that's wrong! Would you like to go for double jeopardy, where the scores can really get high?"
The human body contains 206 bones. Sarah Conner was wrong.
Also, that was an attempt at quoting Die Hard. I haven't seen it in a while.
| QUOTE (Voorhees) |
| The human body contains 206 bones. Sarah Conner was wrong. |
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
|
*twitch*
Random colors, cheesey graphics, inane use of header tags...
Yup, it's a college-kid-with-no-proper-HTML-skills site!
I should so trademark that...
Oh well. It was the first site listed in my Google search.
| QUOTE |
| fuse together leaving only 206 bones in the adult body |
Proves me point.
I didn't argue that point. My point is that, at some stage in the human's life, he'll (probably) have 215, as they slowly fuse together. In a way, that makes Mr. Man right, only not in the way he thought he was.
Sarah Connor was talking about a grown man, Dr. Silberman, who would have had 206 bones.
He quoted Sarah's incorrect statement, and thus was incorrect himself.
He quoted Sarah's incorrect statement, and thus was incorrect himself.
| QUOTE (tanka) |
| Why does Bone Lacing cause Essence loss, you ask? Does it not hurt when you break a bone? Those nerves must be reconnected to the laced bones, thusly causing a loss of Essence. |
Shouldn't that be true for current replacement bones? Pins too. My friend recently got a couple of titanium vertebrae. My mothers husband has a ceramic sternum and two knees with more metal in them than Voltron. Surely it would hurt if I shattered their knees, sternum, and vertebrae!
I think it would've been much easier and more consistent to say that pacemakers and bone pins do in fact carry a small Essense cost. What's the big deal if the game asserts that my grandfather with the replacement hip actually has 5.85 Essense instead of 6?
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| My mothers husband has a ceramic sternum and two knees with more metal in them than Voltron. Surely it would hurt if I shattered their knees, sternum, and vertebrae! |
Your mothers husband?? Why just say your dad?
Because it isn't his dad, maybe? It could possibly be his mother's husband, a person she married after she and his dad were no longer together. He might not like the term 'step-dad'.
Perhaps it was a stepfather deal? Don't call on people with that stuff, its just not nice.
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