Sorry, duplicate post due to server error.

And Again...

And Again...

And Again...

And Again... Don't you just hate it when the server goes down just as you're trying to post?

The references to SR4 is about scaling tec. SR3 does not have nano forges so trying to draw out the differences from SR4 and SR3 does have it's uses when people are trying to debate on Dumpshock. That being said I have seen a metal working "shop" and "facility." A shop can get you half way there with an air compressor and what not, but when you are doing a large scale project or anything complex you need those big cutting devices to slice through 1/4" marine grade stainless steel or else you are just not going to have that sharp of a cut if you use . The guy who had the metal working facility easily spent 100k on the items if not more. That being said if you drop 2 mil on a (at this point I would deem that a factory not a facility) in the SR3 world then yeah I would say it is fully automated with a small amount of physical meat time required (mainly to oversee the operation and creation of the items so that nothing goes seriously wrong.)

I would also go with if you want to attach something like this to a legitimate SIN or not. Attaching a legitimate SIN to an operation and legitimately getting all of the licenses to use the weapons factory and knowing that Ares will probably want a fairly large slice off of every gun that you sell then you could go legit.

If you want to attach it to a fake SIN with fake licenses (or even real licenses) then if anyone takes more then a passing glance at your business they will note that it is illegal (and making high end guns will generally get more then a passing glance) it wont pass the mustard. The bigger problem is when you do not have a legit SIN to your name, because you can never have a legitimate company. Remember it is not about that everything is on the level it is about if your SIN is.

Actually Nano-forges, or something quite like them, are in SR3. I recall seeing tale of them in Rigger 3 I think. Still coporate tools at that point, but nano-facs were very much in existance in the 2060s.

Hmm, some very interesting points, I shall have to check out Rigger 3 (Good thing our rigger player owns it and lives downstairs... ).

And thank you Masterofm, that was in fact another point that I had actually forgotten to add in there earlier. Yes my character was already monitoring the facility during all times of operation as it isn't an infallible system and should something go wrong (And with our GM that will most assuredly happen if she's out of the room for even a second...) she wants to be there to shut the entire thing down and get the rigger/mechanic up there to fix it. I would eventually like to be able to upgrade the facility to self repairing status but thats one of those way down the track should the character actually continue to survive for that long things.

Interestingly enough something that our Rigger player came up with was the idea of applying a rating system to facilities where-by the rating level becomes the modifier for the overall cost to purchase the facility. (This would be inclusive of any other modifiers incurred by the type of facility ie 2* mod for electronics is still applied).

So any ideas on how this might work as a playable concept or even working it into the system so that it's balanced (Like adding an additional .5 to the level modifier for each level...) would be appreciated as would general comments on how you think this would impact the system and/or game itself.

Nothing like jumping into a discussion three weeks late.


The US would also drop hammers on criminals making entire regions of the city into no-go zones for the authorities and openly-operating gangs whose initiation criterion is competence in the manufacture of advanced explosives. However, the US (fortunately for the setting) has been dead since, at latest, 2030 (and has been dead as a superpower since 2013 or thereabouts). The UCAS simply does not have the power and funding to enforce its authority, not unless you want the gameworld to be even more internally inconsistent than it already is. Likewise to whoever talked about "the powers that be" other than the government dropping the hammer; the Nukes churn out hotter gear than this for initiation tests, this kind of organization is a blip on the radar.

(If anything, someone who knows the way the rules screw over Vindicators might mercy-kill him.)

Anyway, although it's dangerous to extrapolate too much from this sort of thing, consider that the base Availability time of a Facility is 7 days. You don't even do inventory on a factory in that amount of time.

My estimate is that, for example, a Vehicle Facility is a fully-stocked mechanic's garage (it has lifts!); the fact that they have to bother to state that it's immobile, among other things, suggests this. Translate as appropriate for other disciplines, but it takes some seriously creative reading to get a factory out of the canon description of a facility.

~J

hi hi

This may be a tangent but: The UCAS may not have the power to drop the hammer, but I'm betting that Ares does. Plus they're probably not above hiring Shadowrunners to do the dirty work for them.

There are a bunch of different issues at hand there.

One is the making of "Vindicator Miniguns". Ok, that's a specific trademark, and having low-quality fakes around might damage their credibility. But really, how many people who Ares would care about the opinion of will be making orders that a single street-level factory (even if we do assume he has one, rather than a facility) can produce? The customers that matter are the ones who buy by the shipping container at the least, which means 28,200kg worth of Vindicators on average, or 1880 Vindicators minus some for packing. That's ¥4,700,000 worth of Vindicators by book price.

Actually, I can stop there. Why on earth would Ares care? Especially enough to hire Shadowrunners?

~J

hi hi

I present to you, a thought experiment:


Most problems are best solved while they are still small problems.

The possible damage from someone having my credit card information is my full credit limit. The cost of a remedy is a few minutes of my time and a phone call to the issuing company. The risk is substantial, the cost not.

The possible damage from a rogue weapons factory is, to Ares, the economic value of the production of that factory. The cost of a remedy is the salary of someone to think about whether the place needs dealing with, to come up with a plan to deal with it, to hire Shadowrunners (not cheap!) or use in-house assets (cheaper, but still not cheap and with the possibility of losing trained assets) or hire gangers (ok, dirt cheap, but exceptionally unreliable). The risk is insignificant, the cost not.

Even if whoever runs it chooses to expand later, there are a lot of street-level forces that can, and probably will, kill whoever's behind it dead (probably not for reasons related to the factor either!) before they're a big enough problem that it's worth paying someone to spend half an hour thinking about what to do about them. The thing about ignoring small problems is that you only notice when it goes horribly wrong; for an organization the size of Ares, thousands of small problems take care of themselves every day, and it simply makes no sense to pay someone to deal with each and every one just because one of them might be the jackpot.

~J

hi hi

Perhaps someone at Ares subscribes to Immanuel Kant's writings on Deontology and his categorical imperative? While each counterfeiting operation may be small, when you add them all up, the impact can be significant.


1. ICC Counterfeiting Intelligence Bureau (1997), Countering Counterfeiting: A Guide to Protecting and Enforcing Intellectual Property Rights, United Kingdom.
2. The Economic Effect of Counterfeiting and Piracy, Executive Summary

No, actually, they can't be; Ares doesn't just spend a flat fee to take out all of the counterfeiters, they have to pay for someone to think about each one, then dispatch (and pay for) an appropriate force, while all the while we're discussing operations at a scale two orders of magnitude too small for Ares Armaments to serve the buyer directly. Appropriate response is probably to make sure that no one in the market for a shipping containerful buys one from an unauthorized source and leave it at that.

Put it this way: there are three ways that Ares can be hurt:

1) The upstart takes sales away from Ares. Doesn't depend (much) on what they call their weapon, but they're operating at such a radically different scale that the idea that this could happen is laughable. If they ever get to a size where this becomes a serious threat they can still be taken out for not much additional cost.

2) The upstart exposes Ares to real or apparent liability as a result of low-quality knockoffs. I'll leave the nonapplicability of this as an exercise for the reader.

3) The upstart damages Ares' reputation with low-quality knockoffs. This one requires that there have been an individual who was in position to observe issues in a knockoff, believe that it was genuine, and then go on to be input into a purchasing decision. How many of those people do you really think there are going to be?

(I just remembered that we're talking about the Vindicator; does Ares own General Electric? Corporate Download doesn't have anything about it. Anyway, the logic is more or less the same (smaller corps will have fewer resources, but may act more irrationally than large corps).)

~J

hi hi

Just think of the anti-counterfeit division as janitors with assault rifles and demolition charges. Sure, they're not essential to business operations, but when you're a megacorp even opposition from dirt and scum must be crushed mercilessly.

Edit: Besides, it is a well studied human behavior to reduce ones own resources to deny access to a rival. When given the choice between having fewer resources but more then the outgroup or having more resources but less then the outgroup, people typically choose the first option. Even when the groups are chosen at random.

I believe my case stands on the practical side of things; from a "good-game-setting" side, I at least would argue that it's more interesting and dehumanizing to have the daily existence of most people on the street (and even their low-level criminal dealings) simply be beneath the notice of the corps; the scum gets crushed because you move around, not because you spend the attention going scum-crushing. There's also the consistency angle: we've got the highway that runs through Downtown becoming gang turf after sundown, big chunks of land abandoned by any semblance of authority, so on and soforth. The megas are clearly not interested in doing preventative maintenance, at least not in Seattle.

~J

hi hi

You do make a convincing argument there. I suppose in those circumstances, so long as the factory stays unnoticed by Ares then it would be just fine, but the moment someone breaks into an Ares compound with one and for whatever reason the fake is recovered, someone is liable to be pissed enough to do something less then logical.

Well, safe enough from Ares anyway. I guess its the crime syndicates that really have authority over the local arms trade anyway.

Edit: I can picture the reaction in the corp office...
"They broke in sir, using this.. *drops the fake gun onto the table*
It's shattered parts rattling about, some falling loose and rolling across its smooth surface before clanging to the floor
"Who is responsible for this?!"
"We don't know sir..."
"Well find out! They're selling our own designs to our enemies? This is our design and they're stealing it! Someone will DIE for this!"

You two do realize your arguing over a dead topic right?

The obvious first response is a letter. From Ares attorneys, to whoever owns the facility home address, pointing out that they are irate and asking that they cease and desist. "Or other measures will be taken." It's cheap, it's easy and it makes the point that they know who you are and where to find you.

Bingo. Although personally I think the better touch is to send that same letter but with all of the addresses and names of anyone they know and care about.

May I just point out that Seattle is pointed out in the book as a Shadowrunners wet dream. There is something like three different intersecting national borders that converge on Seattle that basically describe it as a no mans land. The UCAS has a standing army, and I would argue that one of the only nations that has almost no standing army of any influence is Calfree. I mean the UCAS had enough of an army to completely cordon off the Renraku Arcology and stopped anything that tried to get out. Nations have defense forces, but the way corporations work in this setting is that they have extraterritoriality so can basically pull the diplomatic immunity card whenever anything happens on their own soil, which is why security for an area is privately contracted out. It is also the explanation for why runners exist and why corporations can do pretty much whatever they want. Most corporations will try to go the cheap route before going the expensive route, but for a corporation that is extremely interested in making as much profit as they possibly can spending 500k to stop a weapons plant that is stealing 4.5 mil is worth it. If they can stop the factory by spending 1-5 with a letter then all the better, but 4.5 mill is two more fighter jets that Ares won't have at their beck and call.

This requires research to find out everyone they know and care about. That takes money.


Although the Arcology is huge, much of that hugeness is vertical; the building is less than a kilometer to a side, and has well-defined exits.


See, this is precisely the logic I'm using, but it works the other way around. We're talking here about spending 500k to stop a weapons plant that is stealing 50k, or even less if you deduct operating costs.

~J

Or they could just notify LoneStar about the illegal facility and be done with it for virtually no cost at all.


Regardless, this is just a pissing match from a game that's clearly gone sour. When you get down to GM vs. player type discussions like this, the situation is the problem, not the particular rules.

Why would Lone Star care, much less take action for free (especially to benefit a competitor! Remember who owns Knight Errant)? Nothing described so far would threaten any LS contracts.

~J

To the contrary, LS is very interested. Why do crooks want guns? Who are they likely to use them on?

Depends; one common answer is "other crooks"; with this kind of gear, maybe "border guards". The answer Lone Star cares about is "probably people who aren't our customers".

Lone Star's contract is with the municipal government, as well as with assorted AAs who don't for whatever reason maintain their own security or hire someone else. If they really cared, the entire highway system wouldn't become a gang playground after dark.

~J

The other option troll.

I hate this thread now.

That statement might just be rock bottom for a thread that already included a magic super-transvestite blowing up attack helicopters with a wave of the hand.

Why would the 'Star be interested in illegal distribution of machine-fuck-guns...hmmm.....

1) Law enforcement LIVES for the big bust. That's the shit that gets you made a higher budget next year. Illegal weapons manufacture and distribution of this quantity falls well under that header.
2) Self-Defense. You'd have to be a fool to say "Oh well, what's a few more illegal heavy automatic firearms on the streets?" when you're the most likely guy to face them.
3) Public order. Do I want to deal with Go-Gangs that terrorize the streets with SMG's or Go-Gangs that murder whole shopping malls with heavy, automatic firearms?
4) Connections. Let's pretend for a second that your starting runner can have a connection rating 3+ contact in the Star, but absolutely no one in the AAA megacorp does. No, wait, that would be stupid.


I honestly can't believe some of you play in the same game world as the rules are written. I mean, the chapter on the Matrix has a person getting harassed for running their CommLink in hidden mode, but LoneStar being interested in taking down an illegal heavy weapons manufacturer sounds unreasonable to you. Wow, just wow.

The SR3 Matrix section has no comments about commlinks, whatsoever.

See now, this is the problem. You're talking about law enforcement. I'm talking about Lone Star, which is a for-profit security organization. Do you want to talk about real life, or do you want to talk about Shadowrun?


But they aren't. The struggle isn't "criminals vs. cops" (there are no cops in the UCAS), nor is it "criminals vs. Lone Star"; it's generally "criminals vs. criminals" or "criminals vs. corps that have their own security forces that don't affect Lone Star's bottom line".

Add in the fact that the person making the decision will be safely behind a desk, and any personnel they lose can be easily replaced (no really, check how little training a new Lone Star employee destined for security duty gets).


Based on the fact that no one has dealt with the gangs that can level city blocks, I'm going to guess they don't care. You can't just ignore the existence of the Nukes; if the Star thought this way on this issue, there's no good reason they'd have a different view on the other one.

For the stuff that comes after, you're talking about a different game that happens to be in loose continuity with the one being discussed.

~J

Oh god, now you're going to cling desperately to an utterly hollow stance? Ok, let's blow some more holes:

1) LoneStar is paid law enforcement. Big busts = bigger budget justifications = bigger municipal contracts. I'd say it disturbs me I had to spell that out for you, but really, I'm not too surprised. I suppose the concept of competition with Knight Errant failed to be factored into you "logic" either. Because the mayor is bound to get re-elected on a "allow criminals to illegally produce and procure machine guns" platform.

2) This is just silly - LoneStar enforces municipal laws. When the criminals start shooting each other in SeaTac, who gets called in? Hand wave until you ruin your love life, but LoneStar still does a job according to the books. And since labor is so cheap, there's no reason what-so-ever to believe they would worry about using it. Booyah.

3) Yea, because the barrens aren't a specifically described area well outside normal law. Excellent point, and well made sir. When we start talking about the barrens, you'll definitely be a shining star. In the mean time, let's go back to talking about greater Seattle, in which case your point is completely and utterly irrelevant. Which is kind of a step up from made up or delusional.

4) Oh yea, you couldn't find any wiggle room on this one even by playing make believe and ignored it. Don't worry, I'll pretend not to notice.

But please, continue to try and prove that Seattle pays LoneStar lots of money to sit around and not enforce laws.

I thought it was Lone Eagle that was protecting Seattle... Might be wrong on that one. Anyways stop feeding the troll. I just gave up myself.

And for the last time, it's not a fricken factory. It is a slightly larger than normal FACILITY...

Yes I know that COI in his original post labelled it as a factory but that's because he's gotten hung up on the idea that that is what I was asking for...

As I have already explained, this is not the case. I just wanted an automated FACILITY. Otherwise I just blew the equivalent of $1.5AU on a larger version of the shop I already own...

And people, I do not find name calling acceptable. This is supposed to be a friendly discussion, so please, if you really must insist on name calling, email or message them.

So did we, at any point, actually decide this things legal status? Becuase if a fully registered gunsmith with legal SIN and current shop (legal and registered) upgrades to a better facility that RAW does not state either way (from what we can find anyway) whether it's illegal or not.. i would assume that it would follow the trend set out to date of it being legal.


Following that logic, this whole discussion about whether they're going to carpet bomb a section of a city becuase some pipsqeak is making some guns near it is largely ridiculous, and does nothing to further the OP's understanding of the issue at hand, which was something to do with automation on a facility/factory.

And i thought my tangents were bad...

And what chiptruth do you have to back up your utterly hollow stance? Ok, let's blow some more holes:

1) Big busts mean you fucked up in the first place. There should be no crime for you to bust if you were doing your job in the first place. Next better player.

2) Let's see... according to New Seattle(the latest SR sourcebook for Seattle), when the criminals start shooting each other in SeaTac, who gets called in? It is none of your fucking business, Star-boy. SeaTac proper has a Metroplex Guard and UCAS military rating and has Aztez Jag Guards or Renraku Reds defending the grounds. Off the grounds it is rated B and that means LS takes 3D6 + 0.5D6 Initiative Passes before a Patrol arrives. By which time, the runners should be long gone. Clean up the shit and file a report, Star-boy.

3) Actually no, it is not irrelevant given that in every sector of Seattle there is at least 1 major gang working there. Even in areas like Downtown, there are Bloody Screamers, Disassemblers, First Nations, Halloweeners, Troll Killers.



4) Tell me... which of the canon Contacts actually have RAW Contacts of their own. Don't worry, I'll pretend not to notice too.

hi hi

Sorry for throwing additional food over the bridge but:
- p. 256 hiyaa! RAW-fu
also:
Bartender
Uses: Information, additional contacts, back rooms for...

Fixer
Uses: Jobs and cred, information, gear, additional contacts
- p. 257

Oh god, why don't you just wave your hand and bring back in your Magic 9000 mage to make your "point." Your descriptions of the game have far more in common with Forgotten Realms than they ever will with ShadowRun. Granted, it's FR where Elminster is a bisexual cross-dresser, but I imagine that's just some vicarious fantasy on your part.

To address your utterly vapid counter-points:

1) This isn't Minority Report - Crime happens. And let's just assume your fantastically stupid delusion applies and they would be in a world of shit for failing to notice someone doing something legal with intent to commit a crime later - It's still a bigger mess not to stop it when you become aware. I mean, did you suffer head trauma as a kid? Do you know what law enforcement is?

2) The runners? Are you planning on making up straw men now? We're having a talk about "common criminals" buying tons of street created and distributed machine guns - What conversation are you in? Hint: We're in the one where the super-crossdresser mage is retarded.

3) If you shift the goalposts far enough away from the original comment, someone might think what you're saying is relevant. But this is still about jackass #1 bringing in the Nukers levelling parts of the barrens, and thus your comment is as flaccid as you are.

4) This is just some half-assed rules lawyer douchebaggery at this point. It's not even good douchebaggery, since Networking is a key part of what Contacts do. Booyah, dumbass.


Go put on some panties and call yourself Granny, I'm sure it will make the fact that you're ridiculously incorrect less painful.

Rehlor, not meaning to wind you up even more, but i would suggest revising the posts by Onii and myself for clarification here. This may be contributing to the confusion, as the weapons being created are neither being sold off to random gogangers nor various other unsavouries, nor are they being illegally created.



I guess it may help to know the facility is in an industrial section of Tacoma so as to better conform with legal statute on business types. Also, sorry but im not sure if im understanding your counter aguement here, could you possibly clarify? Preferably without the needless personal insults, but whatever goes i guess.



yes, yes it is! And to boot, it's so far out there in conjecture land it's actually quite amusing I'm waiting for someone to bringup hitler and kill the thread
.. oh crap



Seriously..if your gonna bother dropping to outright name calling and insults, at least come up with something creative and entertaining. That really was a pathetic effort.

You bring up Goodwin's law then drop this gem? Fine, I'll play my part - *ahem* I wouldn't waste a good insult...not worth effort...better things to do....etc, whatever.


Anyways, my opinion on your actual situation is pages back - Something to the effect of the real problem here is a poisonous GM/player relationship. Rules and setting aside, there is clearly something very twisted with your game table.


The current dregs of this discussion have very little to do with your actual situation. This bit mostly starts here with Kagetenshi declaring that copyright protection would be too much effort for Ares to bother with. And it's been a fun trip down the re-re hill from there.

Do feel free to join in. Kagetenshi and toturi both wilt under direct light, so they could use all the muddling of the mixture they can get.

I try to get out and THEY JUST KEEP PULLING ME BACK IN!

That's what the thread says, because you guys should have left it to die in peace in Sicily, all alone, like every good flame war that's served the Family faithfully and become a monster in the process.

Roflmao... Now thats funny.

Sorry for having re-opened the topic but I really wanted some proper clarification on the actual issue... From someone other than our GM who is the only person in the group that seems to have a problem with this...

As for there being some real problems in the GM/player relationship, I would have to agree as the last couple of weeks have proven.

Anyway...

DID SOMEONE ORDER A THREAD LOCK??

- J.

*sigh*

The person dropped 2 mill on the facility. Personally to me having 20 facilities would constitute a factory. Being fully licensed would entail you to operate without fear of getting wailed on. As a GM to prevent abuse if someone wanted the facility to be legal I would just say that Ares takes a cut of whatever is produced with the warning that if the black market suddenly gets flooded with vindicators there will be words. Other then that from a fluff perspective I would say that you have just bought 2-4 high end lifestyles for the party, and would throw weapons and money the parties way if they ever wanted to set up some high end deals.

That being said my personal take on contracted security companies is that they have to eventually respond to events if they get out of hand. Maybe the closest I could draw the line is like the police in Grand Theft Auto. If you steal a car LS might send out a car in ten to fifteen minutes after a call is placed, which is probably by then too late (unless the car thief took a nap in the car right after they stole it.) However if you throw someone out of a car anfd take it right in front of a LS officer they will probably be forced to chase you. If you start killing tons o people, or blow up the squad car that is following you expect increased hostility. The only difference is that if you run into a corporate facility (AA or above) Lone Star will need express permission by the corporation to enter the facility, which they may or may not get. If it is a stuffer shack? It probably won't take any time at all for the clerk to trip the silent alarm which will allow LS to enter. A weapons manufacturing factory? There will be phone calls, and it will probably take time. I would also expect if the star realizes they are taking on runners that they would probably loosely block off the access points with standing orders not to directly engage the runners and wait for the heavy backup to arrive. They do have a contract to protect people even if it is somewhat half assed, but if a large incident occurs and they do nothing at all to even show that they are trying to stop it there are TONs of other private security corporations who are probably itching to take that contract.

Seriously. Chill out, guys.

Sorry. It was a poor attempt at humor.

- J.

Yes, their canon use is additional contacts but do they have any in the first place? No, I didn't think so. Also while gamemasters can make their contacts fully realized characters by generating biographies and game statistics as complete as those of player characters, the canon/RAW ones do not.



1) So Law Enforcement in the real world or Law Enforcement in SR? In real life, yes, I do. In SR? It is its own Knowledge Skill. So do you have Law Enforcement (Professional Knowledge)?

2) psst... We're in the one where the super mage, crossdresser or not, may be retarded but is RAW and legal.

3) The goal posts have never shifted, they have always been and always will be until shifted by the devs and writers Canon.

4) So? Contacts do Networking, but the RAW Contacts do not have Contacts themselves. Do Contacts actually need Contacts themselves to do Networking? All they need is a Connection Rating, not Contacts. Booyah yourself, dumbass.


Do you have any canon/RAW to back you up? If not, your stance is neither canon nor RAW. I may or may not wilt under direct light, it is not in the canon or RAW. Until such a time a dev or writer was to stat me up with Allergy: Direct Light, I should not wilt under direct light. I am not just correct, I state Canon and the RAW. You however are not quoting canon nor RAW.

hi hi

This is a thread about SR3, your RAW fu is weak.

- p. 256
It is quite a jump to go from "You must do this," to "there is no prefab example, therefore you must never do this."

If you don't want to do any creative work, thats fine. GMs are allowed to bend the rules as they see fit, but according to RAW, you must do it.

Ok, I'm gonna do this from a gunsmith's perspective, since I R 1, and try to completely ignore much of the last few pages here.

You wanna build this facility, fine. Design it, pay for it, license it.

All weapons manufactured must be serial numbered, and sales and records must be tracked and available to the licensing authorities for inspection, whenever they want, as long as it's during business hours (as per current requirements of the BATFE). YOU must do a background check on all buyers through the government's system. If one of your firearms shows up on the streets in hands not licensed for it, it may be your ass on the line, unless it was stolen from a licensed buyer.

I'd make you roll for the initial setup, but, not for each gun made as the machines are doing the work and you're just assembling pieces. If one of your firearms ends up on the street without serial numbers (meaning that they have never been present, not that they were filed off), Lone Star will get involved weither they like it or not because the mayor will insist.

BTW, if you get caught on a run, you are so totally and completely screwed you couldn't even imagine the backlash. Authorities rarely go lightly on someone that they trusted enough to license for weapons production or sales, especially if that person is caught committing a crime, you are expected to be MUCH more responsible than average Joes. They'd build a new prison just so they could put you UNDER it.

Oh, and if you use an ARES design, instead of a one off design of your own, you have to pay a royalties fee, or see them in court (probably the Corporate Court where you'll get you ass handed to you). It's not they money, it's the principle, and the fact that not doing anything would encourage others. Corporations have entire teams inside their own law divisions that do nothing but protect intellectual property. And, since it's a legal business, they'd likely deal with you legally as much as possible to avoid any legal hassles. And no, they wouldn't care that you used to be an ARES employee, they'd still smack you down if you stole their design.

Mostly, I'd allow it. But, I'd occasionally use it as a stick to beat you with, not going GM vs. Player here, I'm just sadistic like that, and, watching you squirm would amuse me to no end.

But hey, this is just my opinion, based on my SR game, so, whatever.

I was actually agreeing with your humor, but was beginning to get annoyed by the name-calling. Wasn't irritated at you, Jake.

Actually that was in response to this:
Tell that to the dumbass poster that first brought the subject of Networking up.

"GMs must spend time to come up with a little background for each of their players' contacts", no more no less. In order to have contacts for Contacts, you'd need to follow "Gamemasters can make their contacts fully realised characters by generating biographies and game statistics as complete as those of player characters." According to RAW spending time creating a little background is what GMs must do. What they can do, which is optional, on the other hand, is generate game stats so as to provide those Contacts with their own contacts. It is quite a jump from "must come up with a little background" to actually "must have contacts of their own." Again the canon Contacts do not have such stats.