Go cows.

Moo.

- J.

And the GM lives in a real world. If your momma wants her PC to beat the shit out of and run rough shod over your NPCs, you say, "Yes, ma'am" and suck it up. We are dealing with a game that follows predetermined rules. Else why buy the books? All it takes to shut you down is a player's definition of fun. The OP's post is just one small view of the big picture. That's all, we do not know the rest of the story. For all we know, Granny, the hypothetical entrepreneural shadowrunner, may be a great dragon's nanny, have allies who call her mom on the Corp Court AND Harlequin is her House Elf. Moo and you might get boiled grass for the next few days for dinner.

I stand by my assertion, the only defense in Shadowrun is dice and even more dice. Anonymity in SR4 simply means that Public Awareness of you is low. If you have too much Street Cred, you need to go out and commit some attrocities.

Sigged.

Counterspelling - foci, counter spelling, mentor spirit, specialties, spirit with magical guard, resist with object rating or stat, shielding, edge.

Spellcasting - foci, spellcasting, mentor spirit, specialties, spirit with aid sorcery, magic stat, edge.

I wasn't saying that the game has no rules, what I was saying is that the world at large in Shadowrun doesn't follow particular rules-- it's not a computer game where an AI controls the enemies, and they always act the same way in response to the same situations. It's all imagination. There's no rule for what happens when you do something really big and conspicuous. Some GMs will be fine with it, other GMs will have the powers that be come and hammer you down. It's all based on how the GM wants the game to run, and how he envisions the SR world.

I would submit, however, that your character who is best friends with a great dragon and can pull strings at the highest levels of power is not a Shadowrunner. I do not know of any GM, anywhere, who would let someone build a character with that kind of background. And few Shadowrun campaigns last long enough for anyone to achieve that level of power, if it's even possible. You're right that we don't know the rest of the story, but because the GM controls the story, we'll only have Granny if the GM wants her to exist. If the GM is all down with an ultra high level campaign where the characters manipulate world politics, great. But the heart and soul of Shadowrun is desperate criminals out to make a buck, dancing on the razor's edge between working for the corps and being owned by the corps, skirting the line between good and evil. They're not CEOs, they're not best friends with CEOs, they're nobodies in a big world, and all they can hope to do is make the world a little better -- or a little worse.

In a normal game of Shadowrun, the OP's situation is utterly ridiculous, you can't start your own minigun factory without repercussions. And that is ALL that I'm talking about. I'm not saying that nobody anywhere could start their own factory in Shadowrun. I'm ONLY saying that you can't pay cash for a factory, push the "go" button, and start churning out highly illegal weapons at a profit in a NORMAL LEVEL game of shadowrun. Unless you think I'm wrong, you can stop arguing with me. I accept your point, that uber characters can do uber things, but since we're not dealing with an uber character, that's irrelevant.

After many months of hard work the facility is running well. Already she has been working nights putting out mass productions of weapons. Her first shipment had gone out a few weeks later. The first time she has had a good night's sleep is interrupted by the irritant chirping of her commlink. Just a simple message from her fixer "We should meet." She falls back into bed and dreams of money.

"What do you mean your returning the shipment?" The woman said. Everything should be fine. Everything was fine.

"Yeah. I am returning it. Got a problem with that babe?" The fixer said. He was medium height with a goatee, slightly goblinoid features and square rimmed sunglasses protecting his eyes. His leather jacket was open and he was wearing a backstage pass to tonight's big Metal Machine Mayhem concert. The M on his shirt seem to mock her. "Free of fucking charge."

Someone must have got to him. It had to be it was the only explanation. "What's the matter, didn't like the price?"

"Nah nothing wrong with the price," the fixer smirked "everything with the quality. Their crap."

"What do you mean?" She suppetered rage was getting the better of her. "Who put you up to this, Ares?"

"Look, you're new in the game, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt of just being stupid. Me I bought them on good faith on being quality merchandise. So I then sold them as quality merchandise. I trusted you. Now a couple of days ago... a business associate of mine comes back. One of the pistols blew up in the face of a friend. Now he was pissed, believed I had shafted him for the money, so of course I take them back have to replace with quality merchandise, I even have to throw in a little something to make him happy." He pulled out one of the guns from the box, looked at the magazine smiled and then slid it back into the pistol.

Two of his goons slid out and slammed her into the table pinnign her head against it. "Now there are three things that can happen at this point. The gun fires and you die, or the gun does not fire and you survive, or even more likely is that the gun barrel explodes and I lose my hand and if you are lucky you die. All three still means we're finished here." He puts the gun to her temple, cold muzzle against sweaty flesh. The hammer pulled back the fixer's finger on the trigger. "Let's see if you really stand behind your product."

Was Granny's real name Mary Sue?

Explain that the facility while able to make new firearms is only capable of prototyping not mass production. And even then I'd make it clear that the production of firearms is a long process that the PC WILL be doing it him/her self EVERY STEP.
Who does the design? The PC.
Who finds, acquires and pays for materials? The PC.
Who has to do the machining? The PC.
Who has to assemble the gun? The PC.
Who has to sight in and test fire? The PC.
Who has to fix it because blank is wrong with it? The PC.
I'd say if they give you any lip pimp slap them.

Any interesting question... If you make a firearm and want to integral-smartlink it do you pay the total overhead cost for the weapon?

"Go ahead. Let's see you pull that trigger."
The fixer froze as his goons lifted their own pieces. This wasn't in the plan.
Then he saw his own devil grin reflected on Granny's face. "You know what they say about trust. Your friend didn't know the butt of a pistol to its barrel. When amateurs use my products, I can't be responsible if they screw up. You screwed up by selling to a wannabe. I do not do business with wannabes. Retire him, boys."


Granny's was a transvestite who underwent a sex change. She was Gary "Yo Momma" Stu. Granny's live in girlfriend is Mary Sue.

The SR world at large do follow particular rules, in effect it is a game where you as the GM simply uses the appropriate rules. There are rules for what happens when you do something really big and conspicuous, follow the rules.
You might not be dealing with uber characters, but I am or at least I am considering them as part of the subset of characters I deal with. After all, the heart and soul of Shadowrun is "you get the job done". And who better to get it done than uber characters.

Funny, as a "Cannon Law Foo Ninja" or whatever, I would think your objection would be the letter of the RAW certainly does not allow a Facility to be used as a mass-production factory, or allow a character to ignore the B/R rules that normally dictate how long it takes a character to build an item.


Good for you, I'm glad you like playing that way, but you should recognize that the vast majority of Shadowrun games don't run at the "I can flip Damion Knight off without repercussion" level. In fact, at virtually every table the threat of their being someone out there with a bigger gun/sword/whatever than you has always existed, no matter what the game or system.

If you don't like playing that way, that is certainly fine. I imagine playing a round where the players in fact have all the biggest guns and get to run about willy-nily laying a smack down without repercussions might be fun for a while. But it's not the norm.

Heh... yeah... part of me thought "with contacts like that why the heck are you a shadowrunner?" I mean being a dragon, or knowing a few dragons or being buddy buddy with whole bunch of AAA corp execs, and can wail on three attack choppers at once... you don't really need to run in the shadows.

... and the GM can choose to piss on those rules in an instant, if so inclined.

I think you missed the point of Larme's post. At the end of the day, its the GM which governs the game, not the rules.

- J.

Did you read the mans sig? The wrong person to have an argument about that.

I've read his sig, and it seems like the last few times I've seen him jumping into an argument, it hasn't been from a RAW perspective, but rather some personal bias or off-the-wall point of view. This is just one more example of that.

By RAW, there is nothing that states or prohibits a facility from being an automated item. It can however be *inferred* that the facility requires tools and heavy machinery, such as hydraulic lifts, cherry pickers and similar items to allow the person to work and do what they need when they manually construct things. This is an SR3 thread, so no nanoforges, which means they need to have the casting, heating and molding equipment necessary to produce custom parts for whatever they're making. By RAW only, there's no info saying they can't, but based on the progression of tools, there's no principle or basis for thinking they *can*.

Yeah. Even if someone from the Ford assembly line inherited a backwater machine shop with an auto maintenance wing it would be pretty laughable for him to try to mass-produce Taurses. Maybe he could with intensive effort and much expense build a car from spare parts or something but mass production entails a steady stream of raw materials, workers, maintenance staff for the machinery, quality control, etc.

I did not say that by SR3 RAW that a facility is automated. I am saying that by SR3 RAW, there is nothing stopping someone from using a facility to build something to automate itself or something else. The GM just needs to pick the right skill for the test. The last few times I jumped into an argument, it has been from a RAW perspective, it does not necessarily mean that it is the common held perspective but it simply means that you can use the rule set to accomplish what you want to do or not do.



I did not say that he ignores the B/R rules, he still has to follow them. I just said that he can mass manufacture whatever he wants, if he is good enough to do it.

For example,

At first, his first few B/R whatevers, TN is may even be Exotic level (8+) because this is the first few times he is doing it. Gradually it is not Exotic anymore, it becomes something Fancy. Granted the item would probably not be anything less than Technical, so the item would have a minimum TN of 5. So a Vindicator Minigun requires a base time of 250 hrs. Automating the facility only helps in so far as it can be counted as Superior Working conditions, hence TN 4. Say Granny has a lot of dice and she rolls many successes, say 10. 250/10=25, so every 25 hours 1 minigun. Honestly I do not see the problem with this.

Umm... where? Where is the rule that says what Llofwyr does when you send him a photocopy of your ass? Where is the rule that says what happens when you sell illegal knock-offs of commercial products? Where is the rule that says that the nail which sticks up gets hammered down? Or that it doesn't? I'd appreciate a page cite -- otherwise, I don't have any idea what you're talking about.

What are you trying to do by sending him a photocopy of your ass? Intimidate him? Negotiate with him? Introduce yourself(Etiquette)? Use the right skill, get the right response. P93 SR3.

When you sell illegal knock-offs of commercial products? Same thing when you fence any other loot, roll Etiquette(Street)... and get the money at the end of it. P237 SR3.

There is no rule that say there is a nail sticks up or there is such thing as a nail in the first place .

Toturi I think why people are jumping on you is because it seems like your playing a "what if" game. Personally the whole "what if she is friends with a great dragon and is totally buddy buddy with it" I have a problem with. If someone has a contact like that why the hell would they be in the shadows and even more importantly why would they be making illegal weapons in the shadows for street consumption?

If the whole argument is the character has enough power not get squashed and can go legit then just have the character go legit and get out of the shadowrunning business, live in a penthouse, and have the player re-roll another character.

I am saying that as long as the rules permit or does not forbid, the PC can do anything within their capability. Including making and selling weapons. It may offend your sense of what Shadowrun should be, but it does not mean that the rules forbid it or do not allow for it.

My whole argument is that if the character has enough power not to get squashed, then he does not get squashed. If the player wants to continue playing the character and is having fun with it, why make him reroll?

You're missing the point. The rules don't say what Llofwyr is like. Maybe he loves silly mail, and if I send him a photocopy of my ass, he'll write back saying that he appreciates the joke. And maybe he has no sense of humor at all. Maybe he would spend a million nuyen just to have me tracked down and torture me to death. The rules don't say either way. There might be fiction about it, but there's no rule that I have to read or follow that.

A dice roll can't control the game universe. It provides guidelines. But there's no rule saying how precisely the world reacts. If I pass an etiquette test with an NPC, it is absolutely up to the GM to decide what that means, within reason. If I make an etiquette test, it might mean that the Johnson considers me favorably and lets slip a bit more information. Or maybe he makes a higher initial offer with his fee. Or maybe it doesn't do much at all, since the way to get stuff out of a J is to negotiate, and all etiquette gets you is a slightly better rep with this J. The rules don't say, so there's no rule to follow.



So... you're implying that there are no nails in Shadowrun? Or, to be less literal, are you implying that IC actions do not have IC consequences? Because per the rules as written, you might be right. There's no rule that says enemies come after you when you assassinate the president of UCAS in broad daylight and yell out your name, address, and SIN while doing it, for instance. That's something the GM has to make up all on his own, using common sense. The rulebook provides a framework, but that's all.

IC consequences to IC actions that have no OOC equivalent should themselves have no OOC consequence.

OOC actions create IC actions as well as OOC responses which in turn translate to IC responses.

Does that make sense to anyone?

Nope, and he does say he is insane. Right there in his Sig.

I concur: what???

Except there are no rules for setting up an automated system. Or really any sort of build/repair action that does not call for the characters direct presence and hand in it (heck, IIRC, even supervising a nanoproduction required continued presence). Similarly, I am not aware of any mechanic that allows for the TN based upon experience in manufacturing a item. A vindicator machine gun is exotic, item because it is a complex electrically rotated Gatling gun, not because the character is unfamiliar with it.

Now you could certainly decide to make such rules up if you wanted to, or apply such modifiers. But then your no longer sticking to the letter of the RAW.


Frankly I didn't understand any of that.

From an in-game perspective, what good could possibly come from a player destroying 3 attack choppers in defense of his arms factory? He can't easily move the thing, and even the most powered gamed character ever couldn't possibly stand-off the resources Ares (or any mega-corp) could bring to bear. Ares can probably build the dang things faster than you could blow them up. For even the greatest runners the gig would be up once the location of the facility was know to a corp who was determined to shut it down.

Actually using B/R skills does not specify the characters' direct presence or hand in it either. The rules simply state that the character has to spend time to build the item. A vindicator machine gun is an exotic item when it is exotic, not because it is a complex electrically rotated Gatling gun. All the modifiers and TNs are according to SR3 RAW. Now you could certainly decide to make such presence rules up if you wanted to, or not to apply such RAW modifiers. But then you are no longer sticking to the letter of the RAW.

1) An IC action has an OOC cause. - You roll to shoot a pistol, which translates to you shooting the pistol IC.
2) That OOC cause also triggers an OOC response. - You roll to dodge the attack, which translates to you dodging IC.

If there is an IC action that does not have an OOC cause, then the IC consequence would have no OOC consequence as well.

He wants to automate his facility? OK, let's see if there isn't a skill that fits the bill. I think that Computer B/R: Control Systems fit the bill. Now you can disagree with me, but I am using a RAW skill (OOC) to effect the IC effect of "automation". The OOC effect of "automation" is Superior Working Conditions. Hence he used Computer B/R OOCly to effect Superior Working Conditions OOCly.

The fixer pulled the trigger, the barrel shattered under the force his hand turning into ground meat. The bullet for that moment tumbled and the shrapnel splattered granny's brain and her headcase all over his leather leather jacket. His final thought as his goon plugged him full of holes was the regret was that his clothes were a mess and would nto be able to see the concert.

It takes teams to make an automated facility happen. Teams.

Anyways if the argument is "nothing says you can or can't do that so that means you can" is totally relative. There is also a point where if the rules make it so you can make a Mary Sue ultra mega character and your argument is because you have found a loophole in the rules does that make the character less stupid and lame? Shadowrun rules give a guideline and then after almost every single thing say "but it is up to the GM to allow it or not" sometimes to the point where I find myself annoyed with the rules for being so arbitrary (see the table and the rules on repairing.... anything.)

There should be some give and take, and everyone should have fun, but if I had to GM and everyone just gets what they want then wheres the challenge? Why don't I just tell them exactly what they want to hear, or tell them a story, or just sit down and watch Lord Of The Rings trilogy with them? It would save me some time. Shadowrun is about victory and failure, but in the end you can have fun with both outcomes if it is done right.

Ok, that is still nonsense, and completely beside the point. What I was saying is that, the rulebook never says "your character's actions will be met with appropriate consequences in game." It doesn't say that. The GM has to make up, using his or her imagination, what the consequences will be. Some GMs, whose games involve way too much paranoia and hiding from law enforcement, will rule that when you leave on skin flake on a crime scene, the police launch a huge manhunt for you. Other GMs will rule that, when you leave your blood all over the place, the cops don't even bother searching for you, because it's cheaper to grab the nearest vagrant, blame him, and fake the evidence. The rulebook doesn't say. It's a situation where there are no rules at all to tell you what happens. They might guide the action -- the cops must make a successful forensics roll to collect evidence, for instance, but no amount of rolling will tell you what the cops do. They are not controlled by a computer AI that makes them follow a set behavior pattern, they are controlled by the GM's imagination. That's what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about any kind of IC/OOC crossover, which is what you seem to be fixated on.

What this means for the OP is that the character can't just roll her way out of a situation. It must be roleplayed to some extent. She can't just say "I'm rolling my etiquette to buy the factory. Now, I'm rolling my negotiation to convince Ares not to blow it up. Now, I'm rolling my B/R for free money." To accomplish what that character wanted to accomplish would require a plan, it would require setting up alliances, and finding protection, and misdirecting the opposition. It requires the player to use their imagination and roleplay, and it requires the GM to use their imagination to control the game world. None of this would proceed according to strict rules, and the only time dice would be rolled is when someone uses a skill. But there's no "come up with a successful plan" skill. And Ares security forces don't have a "decide whether or not to bomb the crap out of the upstart" skill. All of that must be free-formed within the guidance of the rules, but not following any predetermined route, because the rules don't provide that.

I'm really not sure why you're having such a hard time with this, it is a very simple concept...

What kind of nonsense are you spewing? A character doesn't have to present, but he has to spend time to build the item? What kind of distinction is this? Yeah gunny, you don't actually have to have to do anything to build your guns, you just um.. have to spend time doing it. Time that prevents you from doing any thing other than getting the occasional meal (IIRC from the RAW). And their are certainly no rules for changing TN of an 'exoticness' of an item. You don't change the TN modifiers darkness gives because a player gets more 'familiar' with darkness. A vindicator is an exotic item and forever more shall be.


Dah huh? What is this babel?


I have no problem with automation representing Superior Conditions. But they are no rules saying this is the case. In fact there are no rules mentioning what OOC effects automation might have at all. You are just making stuff up. Which is fine, but not raw. And making a facility into an automated factory is certainly not RAW. In fact, since their are no provisions for automation in the rules at all, any rules you make up for dealing with them must be of course house rules.

I think your just trolling with this crap, and against my better judgement I bit. Shame on me.

Max don't you see? It's so simple. You just take rules that are not in place and don't even exist, and for the most part make some stuff up as you go along with 1 or 2 skills and you can build an automated facility or do anything you want to. Then you just build a single vindicator and suddenly you can decrease the difficulty of making them by over half, and um... yeah. Throw in an explanation more complex then it needs to be and your set!

I mean I don't understand why you don't understand it as it seems perfectly reasonable to me.


Actually in all honesty with sarcasm aside I think as a GM you can have quite a bit of say in your games, and if you want to make a player happy while making the game still interesting then I think that is awesome. Personally I take less joy in giving players what they want and focus more on what the players need. Sometimes they don't always equal the same thing, but if they do and everyone can have fun then why not? Generally to accomplish these ends though you have to stray from the rules a bit, or invent some rules that are not actually written up. Making a fully automated facility is fine and if the GM decides to attach some arbitrary rolls then so be it, but for me I would think it would be more fun to create the set up and have some interesting missions that the party needs to accomplish to be able to pump out vindicators and sell them on the street. Hell you could have a story arc and a half with just that concept.

The time spent but presence not being specified is strictly RAW, although in the example, presence is indicated. The exotic-ness of an object is dependent on its exoticness. If it isn't exotic anymore, then it is not. A vindicator is exotic when there are 1 or 2. Then after there are 100 million more of them, when you set the TN for the test, the GM has to ask, "Is this item still as exotic? Yes, or no? Or has it become so prevalent it is now another Fancy item?" A vindicator is not clearly defined to be RAW exotic, to state so is not RAW. In the case of B/R, a TN is set each time you want to build something. 200 years ago, B/R pistols may be looking at Fancy/Exotic. In 2060+, B/R pistol may just be a Everyday/Technical.

However you choose to describe Superior Conditions to be is up to the GM. You are thinking automation does not necessarily mean RAW Superior Conditions. I am thinking Superior Condition(OOC/RAW) can be manifested as automation(IC). You are right in that there are no provisions for automation at all, but that's the point, to me, it is just an IC description of a OOC RAW rule. There are no specific rules for "automated manufactoring" or "automating", correct. But as far as I am concerned, the general RAW B/R rules cover this IC situation and I do not need to add any rules to do so.


In a manner, you are right, NPCs are controlled by the GM, exactly as the PCs are controlled by the players' imaginations. Just as some IC PC actions have no OOC/RAW equivalent, some IC NPC actions have no OOC/RAW equivalent. But if a PC's IC actions have OOC consequences, you make them roll, so should the NPCs.

I don't even know what you mean by OOC consequences. AFAIK, there's no such thing -- nothing happens to the RL person, out of character, based on what happens IC. So the idea of OOC consequences is a bit wacky... Maybe instead of using shorthand like IC/OOC, you should spell out what you mean. That way people would understand what you're talking about. I think the problem is that you are using the terms IC/OOC differently than other people understand them, so we don't get your point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdK5J_d2GRI...feature=related

Toturi, creating an item 100 times doesn't make it any less complex to build. You might get more efficient at it (though that won't be the case if you're automating the process), but it never gets any less complex, thus the target numbers shouldn't go down. It's still just as difficult as it always was, after all.

Wounded Ronin, I am ALWAYS glad you're around when these kinds of threads get going. I know you'll swoop in and do something awesome. Like batman, only with with crazier 80s hair.

This? From someone who accused me of not being RAW? So then where does the word "complex" appear in the B/R rules? Where does the complexity of an object even figure into the TN? I see 4 descriptors - everyday, fancy or technical, and exotic. Creating the same object a hundred times makes that object no longer as exotic as it used to be. As complex as it was, perhaps, but as exotic, it is no longer.

Exotic is not a measure of how familiar it is to you. It's a measure of how rare it is in the whole world. I might have 100,000 tons of exotic spices surounding me at all times in my Persian style palace. That does NOT mean that those spices are no longer exotic. That's not how the definition of that word works, in English. And the other terms prove this. Something can't be less fancy, or less technical just because you make it a bunch of times, right? They obviously aren't going to have three categories in their list that list unchanging qualities of an object, and then the fourth one magically dwindles with time. When you look at a list of four things, the most sensible thing to do is interpret them to be similar, that's a well settled legal principle. If they wanted exoticness to go away over time, they would have said so. What you're saying is that, by using the word "exotic" they created a whole secret, non-written set of rules about how an object can stop being exotic. Well guess what? Per RAW, there are no such rules. It's not RAW, because you have to make up those rules. How many times do you make an object before it's not exotic? Is there a roll to reduce the exoticness? It doesn't say, it's not RAW, it's not canon, it's not even correct under the English language.

All things considered, I should have really been more specific with my accusation. I'll freely admit I've only been browsing a handful of threads recently, and each time I saw you in them, it was from a very much hypothetical what if kind of perspective. So I very likely blew your lack of RAW out of proportion, for which I apologize.

Back to the discussion at hand, Larme has it basically right. Just because you know how to make something doesn't make it any less exotic, just because you're practiced at it. It's still an exotic item, it just happens to be one you make on a regular basis.

Ha ha ha! I just thought what if you were using an exotic weapon so much that it just became a normal weapon. For instance you are using the vindicator and suddenly it turns into a heavy weapon because you are so familiar with it and it is not longer an exotic weapon. Then you have to spend a crap ton of karma learning heavy weapons because you didn't buy the skill heavy weapons, only exotic weapon - vindicator and thus boned yourself by becoming more familiar with the weapon.

Ok, so I'm going to break this down. I'm aware I'm putting words in someone else mouth here and extend one blank qualification.

Toturi, is treating the whole game. Players and character, collections of dice and dice pools, etc. as one system. So to say "An IC action has an OOC cause" mean that any time a character (PC or NPC) does something it is because a player set it in motion. To say "That OOC cause also triggers an OOC response" means that players elect to dodge based on the number of hits on the attack roll, not the character's perception of what's happening. Those two OOC choices, and then combine to help the table come to there mutual imagined scene.
"If there is an IC action that does not have an OOC cause, then the IC consequence would have no OOC consequence as well." This is actually the interesting part. This implies that in Toturi's model of the Sixth World isn't solipsistically focused on the PC, and that people live "real" IC lives where the camera is on them or not. Fixers are making social rolls, Bouncers are intimidating people, and paramedics are making first aid checks all the live long day. But because those "rolls" weren't prompted by OOC concerns, they are just consequences of the model they don't have OOC affects. The existence of Desert Wars doesn't force the game in to 24/7 initiative ... unless the GM makes it relivent. Then there is an OOC cause, which can trigger OOC responses.

---

To whomever didn't get how a build roll could take time but not presence, it's simple. The rule of a game like shadow run can be treated like the text on magic cards. The BBB can be read as a 354 pages of XXXX: YYYYYY ". Everything has a cost interns of time, money, BP, PP, actions, etc. You pay that listed cost, you get that listed effect. Totuir is saying that building lists a cost in time money and materials, not doens't mention presence.

Just tossing in my two cents, but it really seems the discussion (read: argument) has been boiled down to play styles and enjoyability for the players and the GM. If the players are cool with one of their own owning and trying to run a heavy weapons assembly line, and the GM feels they can work with it, then great. If the other players want something more low-key, or the GM can't/doesn't want the game to take that turn, it should be discussed. As I've always seen it, it's the GM's responsibility to make sure the players have fun, and it's the responsibility of the players to let everyone have fun and recognize the GM has final word on all things in game.

The rules don't say a facility can't be used as the player in question wants, just as they don't say it can. If the GM thinks it'd be neat as plot-fodder later and the rest of the group doesn't object, go for it. If there are objections, something has to change. Maybe the other players can be swayed to see it as an asset, or the GM decides to say no to such use. Maybe the GM determines Ares/UCAS/threatened-powers-that-be sends Runners or TacOps teams to shut down the facility while Granny is being uber elsewhere.

Or maybe Ares just sends over a well-mannered, expensively-dressed ork named Greenberg to serve Granny the cease-and-desist papers over an impending legal suit regarding copyright laws.

The orbital high-yield nuclear cows could just be on standby.

Correct. If there is a hundred thousand tons of exotic spices in your palace out of a million tons in the whole world, sure, those spices are exotic. If every market in the world has 10 tons of those spices, are they still "exotic"? You can say that although the item is not exotic, you can still classify it as Fancy. Sure, go ahead. Now then consider if the item is then so prevalent that every household has 10 kg of them, it is then not an everyday item now? Sure, the item can still be classified as Fancy but now it is everyday too.

ex⋅ot⋅ic 

–adjective
1. of foreign origin or character; not native; introduced from abroad, but not fully naturalized or acclimatized: exotic foods; exotic plants.
2. strikingly unusual or strange in effect or appearance: an exotic hairstyle.
3. of a uniquely new or experimental nature: exotic weapons.
4. of, pertaining to, or involving stripteasing: the exotic clubs where strippers are featured.

You can choose 1, or even 4 for your definition of exotic. But if I use definitions 2 or 3, each time I set a TN, I must look at something and ascertain whether I can still term it to be exotic. There is no roll involved. Look at the item each time you ascertain TN and decide accordingly. I am saying that by using those descriptors, they have set up essentially 3 categories an item can belong to. Everyday, Fancy/Technical and Exotic. Each time you set a TN, look at the item and see if it fits into which of these categories. When there is 1 Mona Lisa, it is exotic. When there are 100 million Mona Lisa, they are Fancy. When there are 5 billion Mona Lisas hanging on every wall in every home, maybe Mona Lisa has become an everyday item. And you are in the business of making Mona Lisas.

Weavermount: Thanks for explaining it better than I can.

Sure, if people stop using pistols because miniguns become so cheap and effective, and miniguns are basically the minimum weapon for engagement, you might say that miniguns are no longer exotic. Once upon a time, revolvers were exotic weapons compared to the prevalent muskets and swords of the day, so I suppose the same goes for miniguns. Though I'll say that it's highly unlikely for miniguns to cease being exotic weapons within the timeframe of a Shadowrun game. Or ever, since they're big, cumbersome, and eat up ammo in a really inefficient way compared to small arms. If anything's a candidate from going to exotic to common within a short-ish period of time, it's the laser pistol.

Wow. A whole lot of considerations in here that don't address the initial q...

Which was quite simply can one purchase a facility and have it automated?

There seem to be some very interesting concepts in here with regards to this, however the compromise that COI and I reached on this one was simple.

Its partially automated. Namely the machines are able to build/construct the parts once they have been successfully programmed to do so, however the character still needs to be present in order to monitor the equipment (As was already the assumed case on the part of the player... No-one ever said that I expected to be able to do anything else while this was happening. that would require a much larger and extremely high level of automation, which I do of course realise...).

The character also then needs to assemble the parts herself once they have been produced.

With regards to the installation of the equipment (Which I've seen mentioned a few times thus far...) it would prolly help to know that we do in fact have a Engineer (Just Engineer) on the team in the form of our rigger.

And with regard to the whole people jumping on her for glutting the market with vindicators, that was the 1st thing COI mentioned to me. The grin on my face let him know that I'd already considered this. I was planning on selling 10 to my legit arms dealer for an ok price and keeping the rest as personal use for securing the facility and vehicles.

Apart from which, something that has been mentioned a few times, (And I really do have to wonder just how stupid you people think I am, really) Who the hell ever said that just because a facility is automated that it had to run 24/7? Or even once a week? I have a separate lifestyle cost to account for the upkeep/maintenance of the facility and it's equipment. It is used when I want to create more than 1 item at a time. (Read: I want to spend a week of my downtime creating x number of weapon y.)

However with the issue resolved and a happy (Or at least not actively trying to kill one another) medium being reached, this really is a mute point now.

Thanks to those of you who provided useful input to this query.

Yeah sure... it was all us reading into what was said and we didn't address anything at all ever...

*sigh*

Anyways we were not given much except that "the player wants to mass produce item" so yeah there was a lot of talk on how that could or could not be done. The second thing the poster says is talking about a fully automated system which was his worry. Mass production is a means which is generally the system is fully automated or 99% automated and you can produce an item quickly, and when the poster talks about automated facilities in the very next post I don't think people were going wildly off topic. Mass production + automated generally means fully automated. Generally when something like that is said when looking at it as a GM with very little information given about the situation it seems like the player is trying to abuse the system. Trust me most questions boil down to worst case scenerio especially on Dumpshock.

There is also big difference in "partially automated" and "automated" for a facility. I'm glad you reached a middle ground on the situation. The way the rules figure this out is when you use a facility is that it gives you bonus dice to creating the weapon.

OK, after trawling through this thread, and also as a player in Child's SR team (along with the player in question who wants the factory) i think i need to clarify a few things.

1. The character in question is a fully fledged legally SIN'd gunsmith, paid 300k nuyen for this, and has done *everything* IC, including saving for this facility over a period of roughly 2 years *real life time*. Yes, this brings the question of why shadowrun into play - she's mpd and likes guns, there's more but it's irrelevant to this topic. She uses a fake SIN for her shadowrunning and takes extreme precautions to separate the identities of the two, even to the party (till the GM decided to tell the whole party her real SIN, name and details during a multiplanar quest that wound up in the party kidnapping and questioning the brand new decker)

2. player has posted about the facility compromise above (it's onii), so i don't need to go into that.

3. This is not a money making facility, this is not a "get rich quick scheme" (see saving period of point one for further clarification), this is not a game-breaking, end-of-'running, break everything, IC paranoia inducing, illegal as hell, highly advertised, mass producing market takeover idea. It is a gunsmith upgrading from a standard ass weapons shop to a better facility capable of producing higher class, better quality weapons more easily.

4. This thing is done with every player in the groups both consent, and input. Yes, we didn't save for it, but we're sure as hell reaping benefits from it all. This thing is being housed inside a complex that the whole party is pooling to pay for, with each player getting a level or 2 depending on capital input. The combined end day value of this building is somewhere in the 2mil nuyen+, payed for between 5 players, 3 of which have spent over 2 years saving for, one of the others is a high level enchanter with the day job flaw. This includes all the facilities that our craft heavy party is installing in it.

Personally, i don't really see the problem here as long as it is kept within these guidelines really, but that's just me.

So, hope this helps clear a few things up for everyone so that they may better advise our GM on where to go from here.

Too little, too late :3

It's good to get some clarification, though. If the facility is legally operated by a licensed person, then my "Ares is MAD" scenario probably wouldn't happen. The facility might be the target of shadowruns, but probably not because any gunsmith who owns a single legal facility is too much of a bit player to attract attention. If we're talking about a lawful business, then more power to you. The OP steered us towards ideas about flooding the market and attracting retaliation by talking about the quantity of guns the person was trying to make.

I don't know if that says much about the automation debate, but I've tried to ignore that, having made up my mind already that a 300k facility is not a factory.

Yeah... Again he seems to have led many astray with this. Unfortunately this was never a part of our (COI and myself) debate. Basically COI seems to have gotten a little 'hung up' on the idea that full automation can only occur with-in a factory, which I personally find laughable as my first ever job out of high school was as a trades assistant to a controls technician where working on automated facilities was my proverbial bread and butter. We even automated a pool... (Yes, some people have waaay too much money on their hands...)

That being said, I would just like to clarify that the a facility = a factory part was never actually a part of my debate but a concept that COI seemed to latch onto and clung to for dear life. (Much to my annoyance and extreme frustration.) The fact of the matter is that the rules don't say one way or the other on this one however according to the letter of the law (And this is where being a semantic prick with knowledge of the feild comes in handy) a shop can be transported in a large van or small truck (Says nothing about operating it out of said van or truck) Where as a facility is immobile due to the large equipment involved. Now as far as I'm aware, the only types of equipment that are not transportable once installed are automated machines as they do take up space and cannot simply be 'picked up' and loaded onto a truck. That is a process that takes time and effort to accomplish because of the sheer size and integration of the equipment... There are very few examples of technology that is not automated that share these requirements.

And now for a slightly new tack on the argument... The issue of cost of automated equipment.

It is a fact that automated equipment is today (and this has actually been the case for quite some time now) is generally speaking cheaper to buy than it's manual equivalent. (Assuming that it even has one any more...) Now I'm not saying that if I were to purchase a vehicle facility that I would be expecting a full production scale assembly line capable of producing mass amounts of vehicles at once. Far from it. I would however expect that facility to be able to produce from start to finish 1 vehicle at a time (So that while it is assembling the parts of the 1st vehicle it's creating the parts for the 2nd and 3rd vehicles.) This is not exactly unreasonable. The problem that large businesses have with fully automated re-programmable facilities is that the time and cost to reprogram these facilities is more than it would cost to simply retrain staff to perform the exact same tasks. That being said, by 2060 with the advent of the datajack and DNI (Direct Neural Interface) this consideration has literally been thrown out the window. To reprogram any type of equipment is as simple as connecting to the device via datajack and going to work. This is still a time consuming process by all means however it still takes considerably less time than it would take to re-train actual people (Or even re-write their skillsofts). Yes I also do realise that there is still the physical requirement of replacing any injection moulds and the like. This I'm not even going to debate because that should be a given and already factored into said 're-programming base time'. (And before anyone starts on me on this one I've done injection moulding before as well... yes having a wide and varied work history has it's uses... I could, given the resources, actually construct a facility of this type myself without too much difficulty.)

So now the picture has (hopefully) been made just that much clearer for you and I look forward to your responses with regards.

On a slightly different note, I have been trying to locate the legal codes for shops and facilities in SR3 however have been unable to find any reference in any of the books. Does anyone know if such a reference exists and if so could you please provide book and page number? And if such reference does not exist (Considerable oversight on FASA's part should that be the case...) does that mean that facilities are just outright legal? Cos, well... That'd just be AWESOME!!! (And rather fits a world whereby the creaton of an illegal item is not in and of itself illegal, merely the possession and/or use of said item is illegal. ) Anyway...

I would also just like to clarify my previous post as well. I was not having a go at everyone who posted, just those who posted completely irrelevant info. This is a SR3 discussion so having references to SR4 mat is really just not helpful. (Esp as I haven't read, much less played SR4 and don't know about nanoforges... tho the idea is interesting...) Sorry if I offended any of you who provided useful and/or interesting ideas.