With +14 recoil on a minigun and double the modifiers on uncompensated recoil, these babies are monsters.

But I have a dream - a fixation on anything that full automatic gunfire is described as a "high pitched metalline whine" (going back to the days of CP2020).

If I wanted to build a troll heavy weapon specialist, how would you build the troll to ignore +14 worth of penalties at chargen? Is it doable.

WIth a high strength and gyromount, you could ignore a fair bit, but certainly not all.

Does anyone have any advice on how to achieve this?

- J.

foot-anchors?
weapon-mods probably.
argue with the GM that as the gun has 6 barrels, using 6 heavy barrels will give you 6 points of recoil-compensation.
then duck and pray the Gm does not use HARD-Cover to hit you with ^^

I would make him a rigger and thus it would not be a problem.

/not helpful at all.

Two words: Daihatsu-Caterpillar Horseman. Problem solved (well, apart from the problem of finding a troll-sized one...)

See if you can convince your GM to gas vent each barrel.

I was thinking wrist based gyromounts + foot anchors. Not sure how that would work with a gyromount harness, if at all however....

- J.

High Edge. Go Longshot.

Predictable much


Onto the twinkery. You need 14 points of recoil modification. it isn't that hard really

14 base
-6 Gyromount
---
8 remaining
-3 Gas vent 3
-1 Under barrel weight
-1 Personalized grip
-----
3 remaining
-3 strength 12
----
0


Strenth 12 is doable with customized cyber limbs from char gen


enjoy

Troll.
Str 14 (troll, bioware, possibly gene or changling mods) = 3pts
Gas-Vent 3 = 3pts
Gyromount = 6pts
Personalized Grip = 1pt
Hip Pad = 1pt

You can use electronic firing instead of personalized grip.
You can use a heavy barrel instead of something worth 1pt.
You can use the foot spikes from Augmentation in place of something worth 1pt.

And I'm not sure if it's cannon, but in my game you could use two arm gyromounts (one in each arm) in place of the normal gyromount.

(That's the trick. Pulling off the minugun trick without the big bulky gyromount.)

troll w/ str 10 (2)
heavy barrel (1)
personalized grip (1)
gas-vent (3)
hip pad (1)
gyro-stabilization (6)

14 points of compensation, no 'ware needed.

I didn't think barrel mounted (gas vent) accessories were permitted with heavy weapons?

- J.

they are, just not with miniguns. Doesnt make sense though, since only 1 barrel is firing at a time, the vents could be arranged appropriately so to prevent muzzle climb.

They're really best used for Suppressive Fire, anyway. And that way your Troll can fire two of them, one underslung under each arm!

I did read that in the rules but I don't see how you could do that and cope with recoil.

However, you could easily with the gauss rifle...

- J.

Since when can't you use Gas-Vent on Mini-guns.

Well, suppressive fire is defined to ignore recoil (SR4, p. 144, 2nd paragraph under Suppressive Fire), so why worry? Let the troll go to town!

Actually, for in many instances it would be better not to ignore recoil, as one can compensate for lots of recoil, and therefore the wide burst aspect of suppressive fire would apply.

Peter

I thought that to pbangarth, but then I edited my responce because I reread it and noticed they were talking about a minigun in each hand, using suppressive. Since supressive fire takes a complex action, can you dual wield mini-guns (or more realistically, Uzis) laying down cover fire?

Good point.

Peter

I stand corrected. They can use top, barrel and underbarrel mounted accessories. I misread Arsenal.

On a side note, you can't stack bonuses from gyromounts.



I don't normally believe in dual wielding guns. I ascribe to the belief that if you have to dual wield, you're not using a big enough gun.

But for dual wielding a minigun, I may reconsider.

- J.

Hmmm good point Jake. However I like the option to use 2 cyberlimb gyromounts (1 in each arm) to replace the big bulky gyromounts. It's just a good mental image.

Actually Suppressive Fire is one of the things I don't really quiet "get" in SR. I get that people can fire a gun faster when they have multiple IP, because the effect is that they are able to aim and accurately fire quicker (someone with 4 IP and someone with 1 IP can both point a gun in the air and basically fire equally fast).

But Suppresive Fire? Your just pulling down the trigger and spraying. So does Suppresive take 1 complex action for each IP you have in a round? Does it take 1 complex action when you initiate it, and you can use the rest of your complex actions in later phases (but your gun is already in use)? Or can someone with 4 IP make 4 suppressive fire attacks a round?

(I don't like complicating rules, but depending on the answer to the above, I wish they had added "full round actions" to the system. Some things you really can't do faster just because you have extra IP. You can however make a shopping list in your head while your ever so quick brain twiddles its thumbs.)

(I've been dealing with school stuff all day. I hope the above made sense.)

sure, just split the dice pool!

I really don't have anything helpful to say. However, I had to pick my jaw up off the floor at the image of a troll holding a mini-gun under each arm. Its the stuff of legends.

Actually I wonder how insane a troll adept with ambidextrous and other such qualities along with improved heavy weapons would fare with the usage of that weapon setup.

make sure to give him an Intimidation specialization of "Minigun".

I think you've got that backwards... The question should really be "Since when did they allow you to use Gas-Vent on Miniguns?".

Previous editions have prohibited the use of Gas-Vent (or any barrel-mounted accessory, for that matter) on the GE Vindicator Minigun. It appears that only since Arsenal is this now allowed.

I don't agree with it personally, but according to what The Jake has been previously posted, it does appear to be RAW.

sorry to blow your bubble but it is impossible to mount a gas vent on a minigun.

ask a gunsmith.

as for RPG rules: SR4 p 311

Gas-vent systems can be built into machine pistols, SMGs,
assault rifles, and machine guns.

machine guns are not movin rotating cannon .

A gas vent vents the gas back and up witch push the gun in the opposite direction of recoil.

also gas vent need space to work properly wich they dont have on a minigun. And lets consider the effect of spinning on the exhaust gas how can it work properly? The bullet exits before de gas and the cannon is already in mouvement when the gas effect should conter the recoil for the next shot. We have played with a lot of gas vent at the gun range and shot from light to heavy .50 and I seriuosly doubt that would work.

of course we can argue until we are blue in the face, say that miniguns are machineguns and yada yada.

The best course of action would be to ask the catalyst guys for a rule call in the next FAQ or Errata.

The best thing is to check whether mini-guns are listed under machine guns in the books. Simple solution.

Now you're just talking crazy. Check in a book instead of on Dumpshock? This is blasphemy! This is madness!

and i still say:
6 barrels + heavy barrel = points of recoil compensation!

Talking crazy? Madness? Man, you've been around here, how many times have I been known for my sanity?

Oh and you are wrong on one count, this is not blasphemy. Infidel.

Is this Sparta?

No!

THIS, IS, .... DUMPSHOCK!

And tonight, we shall dine at Thermopylaes.

Noirfatale, I shall play the "60 years in the future" card. Though I really don't need to. Mini-guns are machine guns. Machine guns can take barrel mounts. Gas-Vent is a barrel mount. Unless the powers-that-be come out and say that Gas-Vent is imcomptable with mini-guns, we could still build it in as a weapon mod.

Upon further checking: The Vindicator is listed under Light Machine Guns in Arsenal. Neither its own entry, nor the miniguns sidebar on the next page call out any special rules regarding what mods/accessories it can or cannot take. Therefore, gas vent = A-OK.

Oki people a little instruction on muzzle break (the real name for Gas vent btw)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_brake

yes you can put a muzzle break on a rifle, a big pistol (even a small pistol if youre a small frame) a baret .50 or a machinegun.

now the proble is that gatling rotate canon wich means that gas will rotate as well.

well after some research I found a patent for a multibarell muzzle break but no prototype or pics:
Title:
MUZZLE BRAKE TORQUE ASSIST FOR MULTI-BARREL WEAPONS
Document Type and Number:
United States Patent 3703122

got a description here:

http://www.patentsurf.net/3,703,122

ok this is NOT a easy work that joe wannabe gunsmith can do.

so I guess its possible but I would put a serious increase in price

and maybe we should just drop it and go play shadowrun.

Yep.

We do play shadowrun, which is why everyone argues just from a rules point of view. Sure, it's a lot more difficult to do in RL, but the SR rules are clear in allowing it.
You could argue that you'd need 6 gasvents, though...

You could argue that you'd need 6 gasvents, though
Thats what I've been doing with my pimped Vindicator: 6 Gasvents to get a Recoil Comp of 3
+ Gyromount,Personal Grip,Hippad Totalled up to a Compensation of 11 + STR of Troll (IIRC)

But the idea of 2 Forearm-HVAR-Assault Rifles on a STR 12 Troll ... but also

with Ambivalent Dance
Medicineman

@Noirfatale
If you start applying RL to SR you have to start querying all kinds of things. You just have to not think too hard about it, else we start questioning armour, and flechette rounds, and fire rates, and on and on and on...

TBH, the biggest obstacle to using a minigun on a run is not the damn things recoil, but that you can't hide the damn thing. You set foot in any zone above C, and a Lonestar SWAT team among other things will come at you loaded for bear. It might come in handy if you have a mission in the barrens or you run a very pink mohawk game.

hmm . . 6x heavy barrel AND 6x under barrel weight? O.o
if you're a Troll, you can still lift the thing and nobody else will be able to do so i guess ^^

Yeah, lots of us already know a little about guns. Lots of us have also been fighting the Good Fight ™ when it comes to trying to bring firearm realism into the game. Lots of us have had our spirits broken, in that regard, over the years, and have just given up and saved it for houserules.

So the thing is, that doesn't really matter in Shadowrun. It's the future. So if the rules say you can put a gas vent system on a minigun, you can put a gas vent system on a minigun, and voila. Case closed. Game on.

Awwww.

It's OK Critias, I'll always have a soft spot for Dumpshock's Gun Enthusiasts, even if trying to implement firearm realism in my game is simply too much work.

Look at it this way, I have to accept organlegging and 'ware and <spits> FAB III, which is at least as painful for the biologist in me. (Actually no, FAB sucks, I hate it, and pretend it doesn't exist.)

Look at it this way, then. Shadowrun is 60+ years in the future. 60+ years ago, the biologist in you would have spit at a game suggesting a helix DNA thingy.

Peter

I dunno Peter. The structure of DNA was unknown, but the existance of heritable cellular material was first posited by Darwin and his contemporaries, and 60 years ago was pretty widely accepted.

My problem with organlegging is this; who would buy a second hand organ, when you could buy an engineered one? The principal costs are going to be the surgery to implant the thing, and the aftercare and drugs. The costs of the organ is fractional compared to that even now, and without the limiting factor of a lack of donors, I don't see the surgery costs coming down sufficiently that the organ will be the expensive bit.

'ware I'm OK with. At least most of it. Some is stupid, but on the whole it's a part of the genre, and I'm fine.

FAB III is just stupid. Floating clouds of bacteria? Better yet, it can survive in areas of +ve background count. Taken together that means that anytime a mage goes into an area with a background count they get infected. YAY! The magic killer.

what's the failure point of airborne bacteria?

Since we're throwing around movie quotes, I'll quote Robocop.


"I LIKE IT!"



Granted, I'm thinking of those situations where you're stuck in a belltower, surrounded by the Star and absolutely, positively, everyone must GO. In other words, rare situations.

On a side note, in reading Ghost Cartels I think it is almost impossible to play the scenario and carry around a seriously big gun. There is simply no opportunity to ship such items or take them with you.



I wasn't sure those items are compatible.

- J.

why the hell would they not be?
name one good reason! ^^
rules stating this would be considered one
you could get 12 points of recoil compensation from that.
add two or more foot-anchors for up to 4 more points and you're at 16.
figure in the needed str 12 to carry the damn thing, let alone lift and you're at 18.
personalized grip and you hit 19.
cyber-arm gyromount or external carried gyro for . . what? another 3 points?
and you're at 22 points of recoil compensation . . if your gm does not just whack you over the head for that ^^
in this line of thought.
can one combine the minigun with the super machine gun even faster full auto fire mode? O.o
and i left out electronic firing, 'cause i want my minigun to sound like a minigun ^^


figure in things like eye-stuff, high attribute and skill . . and you probably could reasonably well DO the akimbo minigun . .
especially, if your Troll has 4 Arms . .
yes, i do scare myself sometimes ^^

Ok. You got me... *flips out Arsenal*

I'm reading P. 148 Arsenal where it talks about what forms of recoil stack. Several there don't.

E.g. Gyromount + underbarrel weight.

So yes you could go heavy barrel with underbarrel weight for each barrel(2 x 6) for an impressive 12 but then you forgo the gyromount.
Add gas vent ontop (wouldn't it be gas vent 3 x 6 for an even more impressive 18? ) you get an addition 3 minimum which goes to 15.
Foot anchors + strength mod would see through the rest.

- J.

ok, i know the reason is probably balance, but is there any other reason i just don't physically understand as to why gyro stuff does not stack with things that are slung under barrels? O.o
but eh, i can live with that . . still good enough ^^
i don't think 6 gas vents stack for the single reason that only one barrel is supposed to be shooting at a time so only one gas vent is going to be venting some frustrations into your face . .
6 gas vents would following that logic, only give you 3 points of recoil compensation . . while one single gas vent would do close to nothing, as it's only in effect one 6th of the times the barrels are fired creating recoil . .

Fair point. Ok so either way, the barrel weights should definitely stack. W00t.

- J.

Personally, I'd houserule that adding heavy barrels or barrel weights to a minigun would drastically shorten the battery life, due to the amount of torque required to get the barrels spinning. Heck, it might not even work without completely regearing the drive mechanism, or installing a larger motor.

I also can't imagine the downtime it would take to keep those barrel weights perfectly balanced, and make sure none of the mounting screws are walking loose...

Perhaps the gyromounts connect to the gun under the barrels? So you can't have both because they won't physically fit as they need to go in the same space.

Not exactly a great reason, but it's the only one I could think of which maybe would work.

I to am displeased with some of the recoil comp that doesn't stack.

Some makes sense. Most of the groups do, the first group are braces for the gun, the second group is back end braces.

But shock pad should be able to stack with the rigid stock or folding stock. (And weapons with a built in stock should have a point of RC automatically.) The sling should be able to stack with a couple more things. Personalized Grip and Electronic Firing shouldn't be in the same group, because they do significantly different things (besides electronic firing is much more expensive, so why take it?). And of course there is underbarrel weight.