Dumpshock Forums > Runs-With-Miniguns

Stahlseele

Jan 9 2009, 09:31 AM

i don't really like the electronic firing modification . .
it changes a usual gun to one of those sakura like firestorm things . .
basically that means the guns become front-loaders . .
and usually that means no control over the firing speed either,so for weapons with fixed rate of fire that might be okay . .
but i still don't like it for things like a minigun!

the minigun has at least a stable fixed frame inside which the barrels do their rotating thing, so there's allways a point where you can attach the gyro mount harness . .
and i still don't really understand why the gyro is under barrel and not above O.o i allways imagine the gyro mount to be something like a little crane coming from the back going over your shoulder and holding up the weapon <.< . .
and the arm gyro-mount does not connect to the gun ANYWHERE . . i guess only the stronger gyro would work while the weaker one would be completely overridden more or less . .

buut . . 6x heavy barrel and 6x under barrel weight is good enough for me ^^
if my troll can carry that added weight, then my troll can carry some more batteries to keep it running too ^^
as for maintenance: that's what NPC's are there for

^^

ornot

Jan 9 2009, 09:47 AM

QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ Jan 8 2009, 06:43 PM)

what's the failure point of airborne bacteria?

I should specify that I don't have a problem with FAB 1 or FAB 2. They are fine. However FAB 3...

Bacteria do indeed float around in the air, but they are not self motile, they are entirely at the mercy of air currents and Brownian motion. If you generate an aerosol containing bacteria (very easy to do) they will not remain as a cohesive cloud, and they will not act in the manner of a cohesive entity because they're bacteria. Of course, you could always just say "it's magic", but even then, this cloud of bacteria can move and will seek out magical energy to feed upon. Once released into the environment there is no means of putting the genie back into the bottle, so to speak. I can see no reason any magically activated location should remain free of these bugs, which includes natural backgrounds, and manufactured domains. I suppose it means we have nothing to fear from Insect Spirits or Toxic Spirits. They will inevitably become infected and die like the aliens in War of the Worlds. It's the ultimate antimagical bioweapon.

Digital Heroin

Jan 9 2009, 11:00 AM

Because talking about it wasn't enough... and two miniguns just didn't cut it, I give you:

The Changeling Troll 24 Barreled Monstrosity

[ Spoiler ]

****Built with 750 Karma, and a wee bit of futzy Nuyen; obviously no Avail limit, since miniguns break it

Edit: This was a relatively quick build... and is likely all kinds of messy.

[ Spoiler ]

Tachi

Jan 9 2009, 11:10 AM

1000 Minigun rounds? Divided by 4 guns? So, enough for approximately 16 seconds per gun? At 4000 rounds per minute? Me thinks you need more ammo. But, then again, I always think everyone needs more ammo.

ornot

Jan 9 2009, 11:43 AM

Bear in mind that SR uses vastly lower fire rates than RL.

A full burst with a minigun uses 12 rounds I believe. Hence 24 full bursts. At a maximum of 4 attacks per combat turn, that's 6 turns, which is 18 seconds.

Still, it's absurd.

Stahlseele

Jan 9 2009, 01:33 PM

nothing is absurd with trolls.
it's all perfect justification for them ^^

pbangarth

Jan 9 2009, 04:20 PM

QUOTE (ornot @ Jan 9 2009, 02:47 AM)

I should specify that I don't have a problem with FAB 1 or FAB 2. They are fine. However FAB 3...

Bacteria do indeed float around in the air, but they are not self motile, they are entirely at the mercy of air currents and Brownian motion. If you generate an aerosol containing bacteria (very easy to do) they will not remain as a cohesive cloud, and they will not act in the manner of a cohesive entity because they're bacteria. Of course, you could always just say "it's magic", but even then, this cloud of bacteria can move and will seek out magical energy to feed upon. Once released into the environment there is no means of putting the genie back into the bottle, so to speak. I can see no reason any magically activated location should remain free of these bugs, which includes natural backgrounds, and manufactured domains. I suppose it means we have nothing to fear from Insect Spirits or Toxic Spirits. They will inevitably become infected and die like the aliens in War of the Worlds. It's the ultimate antimagical bioweapon.

How about this model?

SR4 is rife with descriptions of mana being 'channelled', or mages controlling the 'flow' of mana. If mana is a charged element in the astral plane which moves, then it would seem reasonable that microscopic entities which are attracted to that charge would be swept up within that flow. Since that flow heads towards things that actively channel it, like mages and spirits, they would become attractors the way static filters on air ducts in furnaces are.

Peter

Larme

Jan 9 2009, 05:19 PM

First of all, miniguns are huge, loud, expensive, hard to replace, easier to track down, and not actually better than a high velocity weapon. It seems like you have to do a lot of crap just to get a gun that goes whhhheeeeeee!

Second of all, why hasn't anyone suggested a minigun with an underbarrel minigun?

HentaiZonga

Jan 9 2009, 05:24 PM

QUOTE (ornot @ Jan 9 2009, 02:47 AM)

Bacteria do indeed float around in the air, but they are not self motile, they are entirely at the mercy of air currents and Brownian motion. If you generate an aerosol containing bacteria (very easy to do) they will not remain as a cohesive cloud, and they will not act in the manner of a cohesive entity because they're bacteria. Of course, you could always just say "it's magic", but even then, this cloud of bacteria can move and will seek out magical energy to feed upon. Once released into the environment there is no means of putting the genie back into the bottle, so to speak. I can see no reason any magically activated location should remain free of these bugs, which includes natural backgrounds, and manufactured domains. I suppose it means we have nothing to fear from Insect Spirits or Toxic Spirits. They will inevitably become infected and die like the aliens in War of the Worlds. It's the ultimate antimagical bioweapon.

Well, regarding movement, I presumed that it was some sort of innate Critter power that gave them telekinetic control over their motion. And it's pretty clear that they are the ultimate antimagical bioweapon, which is why Ares dumped them in Chicago. And they seem to work pretty well at that. Of course, they can only survive on a host, or in areas of high background count - they're basically a touch-vector contagion outside of Domains, and an airborne contagion within Domains. Given that they're inherently manavores, if they can't feed on mana they lose one point of Force per week, and without a host around they can't grow beyond the background count (which means that unless the background count is 11 or higher, they can't reproduce without magically active hosts to infect). In aspected areas with lots of dual-natured beings with low disease resistance, yeah, this stuff's going to be antimagic anthrax. Otherwise, it's dangerous, but it's not an ecosystem killer.

And, of course, there's always an AoE "Slay FAB" spell...

brennanhawkwood

Jan 9 2009, 09:31 PM

QUOTE (Larme @ Jan 9 2009, 12:19 PM)

Second of all, why hasn't anyone suggested a minigun with an underbarrel minigun?

Minigun with six underbarrel miniguns? It's supposed to have six barrels afterall...

Heath Robinson

Jan 9 2009, 09:37 PM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 9 2009, 09:31 AM)

i don't really like the electronic firing modification . .
it changes a usual gun to one of those sakura like firestorm things . .
basically that means the guns become front-loaders . .
and usually that means no control over the firing speed either,so for weapons with fixed rate of fire that might be okay . .
but i still don't like it for things like a minigun!

Electronic firing is putting a spark plug on your bolt instead of a firing pin. The Sakura Fubuki is a "metal storm" weapon. These are different things.

Larme,
You're missing out on the big attractions of Miniguns; Psychology, and Debris Occlusion.

Firstly, there's a mythology about miniguns that makes them inherently scary. They say "we're coming to get you and we're not playing by the normal low-damage rules. We want you guys dead and don't care what it takes." They're also highly identifiable and spit lead all over the place. Being shot at is scary. Being shot at really fast is scarier.

Secondly, every bullet impact throws off plumes of debris. With normal weapons fire this is merely an annoyance when you're being fired at. For a minigun this becomes a major hinderance because it fires so fast. Anyone who takes cover to avoid suppressive fire should be taking major penalties to see through the dust and smoke.

Edit: Really, Miniguns ought to have special rules for chewing through scenary.

Stahlseele

Jan 9 2009, 09:40 PM

it's not half as bad to see one or two grenades going off between you and the shooter as it is to see a line of impacts moving into your general direction

Mäx

Jan 9 2009, 11:02 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Jan 9 2009, 11:37 PM)

Electronic firing is putting a spark plug on your bolt instead of a firing pin. The Sakura Fubuki is a "metal storm" weapon. These are different things.

QFT
I was about to post the same comment, when i saw yours

Stahlseele

Jan 9 2009, 11:12 PM

ok, then i misunderstood that

The Jake

Jan 9 2009, 11:22 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Jan 9 2009, 10:37 PM)

Larme,
You're missing out on the big attractions of Miniguns; Psychology, and Debris Occlusion.

Firstly, there's a mythology about miniguns that makes them inherently scary. They say "we're coming to get you and we're not playing by the normal low-damage rules. We want you guys dead and don't care what it takes." They're also highly identifiable and spit lead all over the place. Being shot at is scary. Being shot at really fast is scarier.

Secondly, every bullet impact throws off plumes of debris. With normal weapons fire this is merely an annoyance when you're being fired at. For a minigun this becomes a major hinderance because it fires so fast. Anyone who takes cover to avoid suppressive fire should be taking major penalties to see through the dust and smoke.

Edit: Really, Miniguns ought to have special rules for chewing through scenary.

QFT.

- J.

Tachi

Jan 10 2009, 07:18 AM

If you load a minigun 1:8 (or more) with tracers it'll look like a laser when fired, your enemies will then know true terror deep down in their souls. It's all about psychological effect.

jago668

Jan 10 2009, 07:54 AM

QUOTE (Tachi @ Jan 10 2009, 03:18 AM)

If you load a minigun 1:8 (or more) with tracers it'll look like a laser when fired, your enemies will then know true terror deep down in their souls. It's all about psychological effect.

It would be fun to see one loaded 1:1 tracer rounds. Of course I've always wanted a shotgun minigun. Then load it up with those dragonbreath rounds, and have about 9 seconds of the most awesomeness you've ever seen. Until the gun melts down and all the rounds cook off and you die a horrible fiery death. But what a glorious 9 seconds it would be.

Larme

Jan 10 2009, 08:12 AM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Jan 9 2009, 04:37 PM)

Larme,
You're missing out on the big attractions of Miniguns; Psychology, and Debris Occlusion.

So, basically, your response is that the whhheeee is worth it, because it's awesome

Until there are rules about debris occlusion, and extra intimidation bonuses for specifically firing a minigun or something, it's just a machinegun that makes a fun sound. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a cool sound. I'm just playing devil's advocate when I say that systemically, a minigun is a whole lotta trouble for a whole lotta nothing. Maybe they should be fixed with house rules to be more worthwhile, but per canon they're very meh.

Heath Robinson

Jan 10 2009, 08:30 AM

Larme,
Okay, by the mechanics (and mechanics alone) a Minigun is nothing special.

But we have GMs for a reason. We have rules that say "if something doesn't seem right, arbitrate it" for a reason. The Minigun doesn't need to give you an Intimidate bonus because a Minigun will ensure that you don't need to take Intimidate tests. A mere bonus to intimidate checks implies the possibility of failure. A minigun firing intimidates without fail.

It's like you shouldn't need to get an intimidate bonus for cutting a living person into hunks of meat in front of your target. You really shouldn't be rolling a test then.

Equally, we do have rules for dealing with debris occlusion, you can use the Fog/Mist/Smoke modifiers because they're clearly intended to represent a more general case of visual occlusion from fine particulates. There are no rules saying that bullet impacts creating debris clouds because it's extremely difficult to create satisfying rules that don't clutter play. It's demonstrably better to say "guys, work it out yourselves".

jago668

Jan 10 2009, 08:37 AM

QUOTE (Larme @ Jan 10 2009, 04:12 AM)

So, basically, your response is that the whhheeee is worth it, because it's awesome

Until there are rules about debris occlusion, and extra intimidation bonuses for specifically firing a minigun or something, it's just a machinegun that makes a fun sound. Don't get me wrong, I know it's a cool sound. I'm just playing devil's advocate when I say that systemically, a minigun is a whole lotta trouble for a whole lotta nothing. Maybe they should be fixed with house rules to be more worthwhile, but per canon they're very meh.

Well you do get the extra +5DV or -5 dice pool modifier. I don't know where you place waving around a normal machine gun, but I think a minigun definately qualifies for a +3 for being physically imposing, under intimidation tests.

I do agree there really needs to be something more. You are talking about a weapon that in real life fires off about 4,000 rpm, yet in shadowrun is only a little less than a third of that. You want your miniguns to be scary in shadowrun, simply adjust up to real life standards. Miniguns fire 45 or 50 rounds per initiative pass instead of 15, that should scare the whatever out of whoever.

Rad

Jan 10 2009, 11:02 AM

QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 9 2009, 01:31 AM)

...and i still don't really understand why the gyro is under barrel and not above...

Because that's how it was in Aliens.

Larme

Jan 10 2009, 05:38 PM

QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Jan 10 2009, 03:30 AM)

Larme,
Okay, by the mechanics (and mechanics alone) a Minigun is nothing special.

But we have GMs for a reason. We have rules that say "if something doesn't seem right, arbitrate it" for a reason. The Minigun doesn't need to give you an Intimidate bonus because a Minigun will ensure that you don't need to take Intimidate tests. A mere bonus to intimidate checks implies the possibility of failure. A minigun firing intimidates without fail.

It's like you shouldn't need to get an intimidate bonus for cutting a living person into hunks of meat in front of your target. You really shouldn't be rolling a test then.

No, I disagree. No piece of gear gives you automatic success at any test of any real difficulty, that totally breaks the dice system that the whole world is based on.

And by intimidate, I don't mean "makes people run for cover." That's not being intimidated, per the system. Per the system, when you make a successful intimidation roll, people will be cowed, they will do what you say, and they will be afraid to attack you. When you point a minigun at them, surely they will run away, but that's not because they're too afraid to stand their ground, it's because they'd be stupid to stand their ground. Once they take cover, the minigun is no longer that dangerous to them, they can sneak around, outflank you, and cap you in the head. That's not called being intimidated, that's called a firefight.

If a charismatic person (like a social adept) points his light pistol at five people and says "freeze or I'll cap each and every one of you in the brainpain," those people are going to freeze, and they'll probably follow the adept's instructions. They're peeing their pants not because they're afraid of the gun, but because they're afraid of the wieldier. If a charisma 1 troll pulls out a minigun and yells "don move, breedahs!" instead of obeying, those five people will run their asses off and take cover. They might be afraid, but they're not Intimidated, they can freely act and they won't do anything that the trog says.

The same goes for cutting someone up. Of course it's not an automatic success. If you carve someone up to intimidate someone else, and you pass your test, the other person will be whimpering, crying, begging for their life... They'll tell you whatever you want to know, just don't hurt them! If you fail your test, they'll say "fuck you, you sick bastard! You just killed Larry! I'll never tell you shit, you can gut me if you want but I don't care, I'll never do what you say you fucking bastard!" Because you failed your test, they're enraged, not terrified, by what you just did. Because instead of doing it in a scary, intimidating way, you did it in a gross, inhuman way. That's what the dice are for. Automatic success is not something that exists, unless it's something stupidly easy like getting out of your car, or walking down stairs, or convincing a store clerk to let you have your smokes even though you're 3 cents short.

Critias

Jan 10 2009, 07:40 PM

And conversations like this showcase the beauty of different GMs sitting at different tables. Some people can interpret a situation one way and call for die pool modifiers or no roll at all, others can stick to the books as written, and players are free to choose which game table they want to sit at. It's right there in the rulebook that GMs change anything they want to, so I'm free to run my games one way, and other GMs are free to be wrong and stupid and not understand the game or real life.

Heath Robinson

Jan 11 2009, 12:30 AM

Larme,
You and I, we don't see eye-to-eye on what social skills can do. That's fine, the information in the BBB doesn't actually favour either interpretation.

I can't be bothered arguing since neither of us is likely to change our position.