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Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 10 2009, 04:49 PM) *
The problem is that mundanes don't have a way to counter a mage who summons spirits except to get their own mage. So they get stick and shock, which has the side effect of working on mundanes equally well.

It's like like Rock-Paper-Scissors where Rock beats Scissors unless Scissors brings his friend Hammer or unless he pulls out a Gun. Unless Rock also pulls out a Shield (counters Gun) or brings his friend Duct Tape (counters Hammer), or Rock could conjure up his friend Scissors (Rock beats Gun, Scissors ties Scissors).

Unless...


Here I would disagree... There are other options, including some that I detailed above... The only drawback is that it will probably take a little longer for non-magical measures (barring SNS, which I hate)...

Also... If the GM is consistently throwing High-Force spirits against a team with no magical support, well that is a problem in and of itself... You challenge the opposition, not steamroll over them...
Falconer
Disagree... if there's magical opposition and you don't have magic... you hire start running through your contacts list and get yourself a combat mage NPC, or bring other means to deal with it.

I'm not a fan of, the party doesn't have X, so I can't use Y against them. That's just mollycoddling and treating them w/ kid gloves.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 10 2009, 08:02 PM) *
Also... If the GM is consistently throwing High-Force spirits against a team with no magical support, well that is a problem in and of itself... You challenge the opposition, not steamroll over them...


Lets think about that briefly. With about 12 dice to shooting a gun (base 6P) we can expect a gun bunny to be doing around 10P damage. Without AP gun/ammo that's equivalent to a force 5 spirit's ItNW, add in burst fire DV and the spirit goes down pretty fast. A force 6 spirit though, that's pushing how much damage the same character can do at one time reliably. And a force 7 or 8 is even farther outside the realm of what any one character can deal with (and even if they concentrate their fire, it doesn't make any difference).

There's no middle ground: it's either "too high" or "not high enough to present a challenge."

QUOTE
Yeah... I'm half tempted to make a stormcloud allied spirit w/ an immunity to electricity (you don't burn a fire elemental... why shock a storm elemental) just to give the SnS/Taser crowd a run for their money.


While I agree, you end up dictating what kinds of spirit are harmed by what and end up not having a weapon in the book that can harm an air elemental (it's just air, everything passes right through!)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 10 2009, 05:11 PM) *
Lets think about that briefly. With about 12 dice to shooting a gun (base 6P) we can expect a gun bunny to be doing around 10P damage. Without AP gun/ammo that's equivalent to a force 5 spirit's ItNW, add in burst fire DV and the spirit goes down pretty fast. A force 6 spirit though, that's pushing how much damage the same character can do at one time reliably. And a force 7 or 8 is even farther outside the realm of what any one character can deal with (and even if they concentrate their fire, it doesn't make any difference).

There's no middle ground: it's either "too high" or "not high enough to present a challenge."

While I agree, you end up dictating what kinds of spirit are harmed by what and end up not having a weapon in the book that can harm an air elemental (it's just air, everything passes right through!)



So in the End, you use weapons that have AP inherently, and possible add in ammo that does the same thing... ExEX gives an additional -1 to AP (providing AP -2) against those spirits... so now, you are looking at Force 6 Spirits being threatened rather easily... add in something like a Hatamoto (which starts at 7p) or Higher End Automatic Rifles/Sniper Rifles that start equal or even higher, and now your Force 7-8 Spirits are in a world of hurt... (Hell, an KH-PSG Enforcer (lowest damage of the Sniper Rifles) using optimal APDS Ammunition can threaten a Force 8 Spirit right out of the Box with a single net success)... So, You DO NOT need magic to counter the spirits, nor do you NEED SNS to do so... I think that SNS is a Cop-out in my opinion
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 10 2009, 08:20 PM) *
and now your Force 7-8 Spirits are in a world of hurt... (Hell, an KH-PSG Enforcer (lowest damage of the Sniper Rifles) using optimal APDS Ammunition can threaten a Force 8 Spirit right out of the Box with a single net success)... So, You DO NOT need magic to counter the spirits, nor do you NEED SNS to do so... I think that SNS is a Cop-out in my opinion


OTOH, this is runners we're talking about. Your Human NPC Guard McStockBrand has only 6 to 8 dice to shooting a gun.

And I have seen a mage summon a force 6 spirit.
Larme
I don't think spirits need to be immunized against the stun powers of SnS. Why? Because resisting the stun is a Body + Willpower (3) test. In other words, a spirit of force 5 or better is unlikely to ever fail it, and even lower force spirits have a shot at passing. The fact is, not one shred of RAW makes spirits specially resistant to any kind of damage (other than immunity to normal weapons, obviously). They can be summoned for 0 =Y= at any time, instantly, are incredibly powerful... Having SnS being able to hurt them is a good thing. It might be a little unrealistic that they can be stunned by electricity, but just make up some bullcrap to justify it, like their essence gets disruptified. Who cares, it's a pretty low threshold for a spirit! nyahnyah.gif
toturi
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 11 2009, 02:07 AM) *
Which makes spirits the "I win" button, unambiguously.

The whole point of summoning a spirit is to fuck with a mage (critter powers are not subject to counterspelling), so spirits rape mages.

Spirits of high enough force are all but immune to guns (Hardened Armor 12 with no stun track anyone?). Spirits rape the mundane and the drones.

Who fights back?

The fucking military because they actually have tanks.

Actually IIRC, it was Synner that posted that and I think he was responding to the comment that the spirit would have been affected by the electric damage secondary effect.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 10 2009, 05:24 PM) *
OTOH, this is runners we're talking about. Your Human NPC Guard McStockBrand has only 6 to 8 dice to shooting a gun.

And I have seen a mage summon a force 6 spirit.



But your average Guard McStockBrand from MCT is also gonna have magical backup, probably just a comcall away as well... you don't generally use a force 6 spirit to knock ove the McHughs after all...
ornot
I tend to side with Method on this one. You can't justify saying "I'm going to call a shot to bypass some of his armour, since I know that my AP will punch through the remaining 4 points of armour." If you want to call a shot to bypass armour, then first of all the GM will tell you if there is a weak spot, and then you suffer the full penalty.

I don't get many players using called shots as a rule.

As for ItNW, I rule that it also works against SnS. I don't approach my players with spirits very often, and when I do they shit themselves nyahnyah.gif When they get into combat, it seems their drones are more dangerous than their spirits, although I'm not sure why.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (ornot @ May 11 2009, 04:32 PM) *
I don't get many players using called shots as a rule.
But do you get the armor bypass option at all? As is, I'd only ever use the Extra Damage option, especially against well armored targets. As someone already pointed out IIRC, this option grant's you the equivalent of -3 armor dice per -1 on the attack roll as opossed to a fixed one to one exchange rate.

QUOTE
As for ItNW, I rule that it also works against SnS.
Why wouldn't it? All it grants is hardened armor at a rating of 2*Magic against certain damage types. SnS and tasers clearly are not magical so the normal armor rules appy.

Another question is whether the secondary elemental effect of electricty applies. Incapacitation and diepool penalties are nice, but not really necessary. After two burst of SnS of a skilled shooter most spirits go down anyway. Don't forget htat spirits get to add half their armor to the test to avoid being incapacitated.
Draco18s
With regards to stick and shock, look at the rules about what happens if you hit a drone.

Quick and dirty answer: not a damn thing.
ornot
Nope. My players don't often use called shots for anything at all. They just rely on the extra damage caused by extra hits over and above the threshold.

Out of curiousity, do extra hits work with the SnS mechanics? Consider Sammy shoots Joe with SnS, getting 4 net hits. Does Joe resist 6S(e) or 10S(e)? Eurgh. This opens a horrible can of worms. I'm increasingly considering a houserule that special ammo types can only be used with certain weapons eg. shotguns. Some DSers with rather more firearms experience have complained about how the rules don't make much sense, and simply ditching stuff like pistol scale flechette rounds could simplify everything.
Draco18s
I considered flechette rounds for anything other than a shotgun or tank shell was borderline stupid.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 11 2009, 06:09 PM) *
With regards to stick and shock, look at the rules about what happens if you hit a drone.

Quick and dirty answer: not a damn thing.
Wrong.
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 164')
Electronic equipment, vehicles, and drones can also be affected by Electricity damage. They never suffer Stun damage, but they do roll Body + Armor (drones and vehicles) or Armor x 2 (other objects) to resist secondary effects. If they achieve equal or more hits than the attack, they are unaffected. Otherwise, they cease to function for a number of Combat Turns equal to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test (and may need to reboot after that).


@ornot: Barring any rule forbidding it damage is increased normally by SnS. I don't find that too powerful. Look at the Taser XREP or this video. In Shotguns this works already pretty well, factor in 60 years of miniaturization it is easily concievable that a similar projectile would also work in smaller calibers and at greater range.

@Flechette: actually they are not so bad, just too expensive. the +2 DV is not completely eaten by the +5 AP and the target has to use impact armor which tends to be lower than ballistic. It gets really messy on an unarmored target.
Draco18s
Look at the quoted text again:

QUOTE
Electronic equipment, vehicles, and drones can also be affected by Electricity damage. They never suffer Stun damage, but they do roll Body + Armor (drones and vehicles) or Armor x 2 (other objects) to resist secondary effects. If they achieve equal or more hits than the attack, they are unaffected. Otherwise, they cease to function for a number of Combat Turns equal to 2 + net hits scored on the attack test (and may need to reboot after that).


1) SnS deals only stun damage, therefor drones take 0 boxes of damage.
2) They resist the secondary effects with a huge dice pool. Threshold of 3.

- Body + Armor of a doberman (medium drone suitable for combat) is 9 (3 body, 6 armor).
- 9 dice (3) is about a 60% chance of success.

And that's before you twink and mod to give it non-conductive armor.

I also love how "metal armor provides no protection against SnS" yet drones being made of metal and delicate circuitry have a better chance of staying up after being hit with a huge jolt than humans...
ornot
I have been running SnS as using net hits to up damage; justified by describing it as sucessfully sticking to a nerve cluster or something. Anything else adds too much confusion. However, it does rather defy logic, seeing as the electrical charge is going to propogate through the target regardless of where it hits. Meh.
As for it working in a smaller calibre, I forsee a problem with velocity. Surely these rounds will either punch into the target, causing physical damage, or disintergrate on impact. It's really just a suspension of disbelief issue for me, which is why I'd rather relegate some of the special ammo to special guns. Similarly flechette is not a huge issue for me as far as balance goes, but I think I'd prefer it to need a special mod or gun to use it, rather than viable in any weapon.
Larme
QUOTE (ornot @ May 11 2009, 12:23 PM) *
I have been running SnS as using net hits to up damage; justified by describing it as sucessfully sticking to a nerve cluster or something. Anything else adds too much confusion. However, it does rather defy logic, seeing as the electrical charge is going to propogate through the target regardless of where it hits. Meh.
As for it working in a smaller calibre, I forsee a problem with velocity. Surely these rounds will either punch into the target, causing physical damage, or disintergrate on impact. It's really just a suspension of disbelief issue for me, which is why I'd rather relegate some of the special ammo to special guns. Similarly flechette is not a huge issue for me as far as balance goes, but I think I'd prefer it to need a special mod or gun to use it, rather than viable in any weapon.


I'm not a doctor, but I think it hurts more to be shot in the balls with a taser than to get shot in the leg.
Mr. Unpronounceable
QUOTE (Draco18s @ May 11 2009, 05:16 PM) *
I also love how "metal armor provides no protection against SnS" yet drones being made of metal and delicate circuitry have a better chance of staying up after being hit with a huge jolt than humans...


Drones made of metal? Hardly - some metal framing perhaps, but they'd mostly be composite materials for better weight/performance. And even most circuitry is going to be optical, rather than electronic.
Dakka Dakka
Am I reading something wrong, or is the RAW that a device's armor is not halved against SnS? Is this intentional or is this something like using BOD*1 to calculate the dicepool penalty of too much armor?
Larme
If you're talking about inanimate devices like vehicles and such, they are actually immune to stun damage. There is no AP value used, because they take no damage. Instead, they use Body + Armor or Armor x2 to try and hit a threshold 3 to avoid being shut down. That's not damage, that's a separate kind of test, so AP doesn't apply. I guess you could rule that a device's armor is pure metal and thus cannot be used, but since most things are made out of plastics or composites, it's pretty unlikely.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 11 2009, 06:09 PM) *
Am I reading something wrong, or is the RAW that a device's armor is not halved against SnS? Is this intentional or is this something like using BOD*1 to calculate the dicepool penalty of too much armor?


I honestly don't know. To me, it reads as if the full armor value is used to resist the secondary effects of electrical damage.

OTOH I could see the armor used to resist the damage value being used instead (that is, for drones they take 0 damage, but only get half armor against the secondary effect).

OTOOH, for [any target] does metal armor not count towards the secondary at all, just as it doesn't for the damage resistance?

OTOOOH, characters are noted as getting Body + Will + Half Impact (or 0, if metallic) + Nonconductive, whereas drones and vehicles get Body + Armor (no mods) by a strict reading of the rules.

Side thought:
Anyone considered having electrical damage always inflict Physical on drones/other electronic equipment?
Kerenshara
This is a really fascinating thread that raises a number of very good issues. I’d like to take a close look at a few of them.

First, Stick-n-ShockTM (SnS) rounds seem to get a lot of discussion, so let’s look at them. As described, they are really a super-dense capacitor, a couple pop-out conductors, and some kind of aerodynamic/ballistic shell that lets them survive 10,000g of the gunshot in a rifled barrel and keeps them flying relatively straight to hit the target. They are going to have significant mass. So if you really want to factor in the “Ow! That HURT!� side of things, I would suggest treating it as a Gel round first (+2 DV, +2 AP, Resist with Impact, Stun damage only). Then resolve the electrical hit. THAT shouldn’t scale for one simple reason: the amount of charge in the capacitor is a constant, the only variability being on the part of the target’s individual reaction (the resist roll). That goes double for tasers. Even limited armor will do a good job stopping the physical “Whap!� unless your gunner is calling a shot. Against drones (who uses expensive metals when you can get carbon ANYWHERE?), even the core rule book mentions electromagnetic discharge is largely useless against 2070s electronics of all sorts. They use Fly-By-Light controls. They rightfully should be very resistant. And Spirits… well, I will get to them in a minute.

As to SnS power/balance levels, my own character routinely provokes my GM to near rage with extremely accurate silenced pistol fire of capsule rounds loaded with DMSO/Narcojet. It's fast, nearly certain (both the capsule round and the Narcojet inflict cumulative stun damage), quiet and I can engage two targets per pass. There are always ways, chummer.

That brings us to calling shots. Let’s remember a couple down sides to them: they both take an action and they reduce the shooter’s dice pool. So you sacrifice half of your theoretical damage potential to do more peak damage. Light pistol does 5P with a single net hit. If you had 4 more dice (without the called shot penalty) that would stage up to 6P. Multiply that twice. Now, admittedly, the target gets to roll two soak rolls. But I have to wonder which is better, 6P+ soaked twice, or 9P soaked once. Let’s say it’s somebody with total ballistic armor 8 and body 4. That’s 4 net hits to soak. Leaves us with 2P+3P versus 5P actual damage inflicted after all averages. Against substantially heavier armor, that starts to favor the called shot, but if your target is wearing full up military armor, why the hell are you shooting them with a light pistol? Remember also, the extra attack (assuming you negate the recoil on YOUR side) reduces their defense by one, further weighing towards the multiple shots slightly. Now if you could call the first shot as a free action… (Krav Maga anybody?). That means it's unlikely the GM is going to have HIS guys using called shots back, because weight of numbers (remember degrading dodge pools) generally favors his usual numerical superiority.

Regarding the fluff of the issue, why don’t cops and crooks shoot for each other’s heads all the time, even when they know the other guy is in body armor? Have you ever tried to hit an 8� moving target at over 10m distance? You shoot for what you can hit. That’s how every army and police agency trains everybody using sidearms. Even snipers aren’t actually shooting for the HEAD. They are aiming for the precise center of vital mass.

Finally, spirits. This is Shadowrun. The 6th world, chummer. Where magic opposes strategic nuclear weapons to a tense standoff. Magic is supposed to be relatively rare but wondrous and powerful when you see it. If spirits are no more impressive or dangerous than a well trained and cyber enhanced German Shepherd, you're playing another game.

I just don’t understand the comments about Spirits being a free win for a mage. Summoning a spirit over your own magic rating is physical stun. Most mages can’t stage more than four points down at best. So summoning that spirit is going to hurt like being shot with a light pistol. And if you wind up losing control of him (remember those wound penalties?) who do you think the GM is going to send the uncontrolled spirit after? A mage controlling a spirit isn’t doing a lot else, like tossing force bolts. And why didn’t you bother to bring along somebody who could banish on your side, chummer? Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Remember that an adept’s Killing Hands or weapon focus also ignore ItNW. The APDS has already been covered elsewhere.

My primary character is an aspected mystic adept, still learning to cope with a late awakening, so I don't have banishing as an option. And my stun bolt is still pretty poor. I chose to build them that way, and I have to deal with the results. But if spirits are so all powerful like some people think, why not just have YOUR mage summon one for YOUR team? That way the spirits are busy playing with each other.

Anyhow, that’s my take on the things so far. Take it or leave it, as your mileage may vary.

Maelstrome
Welcome to dumpshock. good first post. i hope you made a good first impression.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Very Well Said Kerenshara...

Impressed me with the succint response that coverd all the bases that I have been trying to explain (obviously unsuccessfully)...

Kudos
toturi
Please... all green (all colored) text are usually used by mods to indicate their mod comments as opposed to their comments in their personal capacity.

For a moment there, I thought a mod had gone off the deep end and issued an Omega Order on someone.
Larme
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 11 2009, 08:55 PM) *

As to SnS power/balance levels, my own character routinely provokes my GM to near rage with extremely accurate silenced pistol fire of capsule rounds loaded with DMSO/Narcojet. It's fast, nearly certain (both the capsule round and the Narcojet inflict cumulative stun damage), quiet and I can engage two targets per pass. There are always ways, chummer.


Sort of a side note, but relevant, because the entire reason people want to nerf SnS is that GMs feel like it makes it too easy for players.

I don't understand a GM who gets angry when the players kick ass. For me, the NPCs are there to get fucked up. When a player executes a flashy takedown, I'm like "dude, that was sweet!" Especially when the players are roleplaying in a flashy/stylistic way. The players are supposed to win, because otherwise I made the adventure too hard. If they don't win, they don't get karma, they don't get money, and they don't have much fun. And if they don't have fun, I don't have fun. I'm not saying that it should be easy. But as long as you have a strong understanding of the system, you can make sure it isn't easy. There's no one piece of gear, not SnS, not anything, that can really prevent a crafty GM from offering a challenging run. The only GMs who get totally stumped by SnS, to the point where they give up and nerf it via house rules, I have to say that they can't be very crafty people.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Larme @ May 11 2009, 07:54 PM) *
Sort of a side note, but relevant, because the entire reason people want to nerf SnS is that GMs feel like it makes it too easy for players.

I don't understand a GM who gets angry when the players kick ass. For me, the NPCs are there to get fucked up. When a player executes a flashy takedown, I'm like "dude, that was sweet!" Especially when the players are roleplaying in a flashy/stylistic way. The players are supposed to win, because otherwise I made the adventure too hard. If they don't win, they don't get karma, they don't get money, and they don't have much fun. And if they don't have fun, I don't have fun. I'm not saying that it should be easy. But as long as you have a strong understanding of the system, you can make sure it isn't easy. There's no one piece of gear, not SnS, not anything, that can really prevent a crafty GM from offering a challenging run. The only GMs who get totally stumped by SnS, to the point where they give up and nerf it via house rules, I have to say that they can't be very crafty people.



Or maybe they are just tired of the, what was it... the "I Win Button" that so many individuals think that SnS provides vs. spirits... Don't know, just saying... There is a difference between creativity and ALWAYS resorting to the same old thing, time after time, run after run, year after year...

Just Saying...
toturi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 12 2009, 10:20 AM) *
Or maybe they are just tired of the, what was it... the "I Win Button" that so many individuals think that SnS provides vs. spirits... Don't know, just saying... There is a difference between creativity and ALWAYS resorting to the same old thing, time after time, run after run, year after year...

Just Saying...

It is not always resorting to the same old thing. It is using what works. Just that it is not what the GM thinks should work.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Larme @ May 11 2009, 09:54 PM) *
I don't understand a GM who gets angry when the players kick ass. For me, the NPCs are there to get fucked up. When a player executes a flashy takedown, I'm like "dude, that was sweet!" Especially when the players are roleplaying in a flashy/stylistic way. The players are supposed to win, because otherwise I made the adventure too hard.


I've never GM'd an I think SnS is cheesemongering.

On the one hand, games that are easy are fun. But games that have no challenge are not fun. If I wanted to play a mindless grindfest I'd pick up the nearest JRPG console game.

But I don't want a grindfest, I want to feel as if the opposition meant something. I don't want to be shooting paper dolls, it isn't any fun.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (toturi @ May 11 2009, 08:29 PM) *
It is not always resorting to the same old thing. It is using what works. Just that it is not what the GM thinks should work.



If all you ever do is use Sns against the spirits, it is using the same old thing...

There are many tactics that work against spirits... using the same one all the time is...BORING...

*Yawn*... "look its a Spirit, break out the SnS rounds"...


BORING...
Method
rotate.gif {looking around for an original topic....}

Ah well....

SnS is no more boring than mages that use stun bolt against every hapless guard. Or characters who whip out the emotitoy for every negotiation. Or pistols firing AV ammo against drones. Or possession traditions. Or search bot agents. Or....

Doing something just because it works best within the context of the game mechanics is pretty much the definition of power gaming. Not that there's anything wrong with that, if thats what you're into. I just thank god that my players would rather chew on glass IRL than roleplay some d-bag that would bring a toy to a meeting of people who shoot other people in the face for money. Dice pools be damned.

Dakka Dakka
Welcome to the forum, Kerenshara. Interesting first post.

I see however one misunderstanding of the rules on your part:

Called Shot: A Called Shot is a Free Action. Thus you can still shoot twice, but only one of them can be a Called Shot.

As for your suggestion how SnS should work, normally there is no double damage. I know, poisoned weapons and capsule rounds are an exception, but with most toxins the second damage is resisted and applied later. If you look at the electric melee weapons, they also only get electrical damage and no kinetic damage.

Narcojet: Don't you have problems with penetrating the target's armor? DMSO only let's the skin absorb the chemical. The toxin does not necessarily go through armor.
ornot
QUOTE (Larme @ May 11 2009, 09:20 PM) *
I'm not a doctor, but I think it hurts more to be shot in the balls with a taser than to get shot in the leg.


I don't know. Intuitively one would think so, but I'm not certain if that is truly the case. A properly controlled study would be tricky to justify ethically, and I certainly can't find any references to it. There are a lot of different factors involved.

I quite like the idea that one would make two rolls. One for the actual impact (which could actually cause damage) and the other for the discharge, which would function as a toxin. In this context SnS would work as gel rounds, and may or may not knock the target out/over. Then the electric stun effect would kick in, possibly incapacitating the target. The same would apply for handheld tasers and stun batons. My research suggests that a taser inflicts no long or medium term damage, so why should it cause Stun Damage in SR? If you want to tase someone in melee without hurting them you could go for the touch attack and get +2 dice.

The more I consider it the more I like it.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 12 2009, 03:50 AM) *
I see however one misunderstanding of the rules on your part:

Called Shot: A Called Shot is a Free Action. Thus you can still shoot twice, but only one of them can be a Called Shot.

Drek. I went and looked the thing back up in SR4v1.3 P.149 and you are correct. I also went back and checked the entry for Krav Maga and it's Take Aim that's a free action. Ok, I can screw up. Happens. Occasionally. Don't get used to it. *roguish grin*

QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 12 2009, 03:50 AM) *
As for your suggestion how SnS should work, normally there is no double damage. I know, poisoned weapons and capsule rounds are an exception, but with most toxins the second damage is resisted and applied later. If you look at the electric melee weapons, they also only get electrical damage and no kinetic damage.

I was just suggesting how somebody who wanted to let marksmanship affect those rounds might want to work that in. And I always figured the melee weapon stun damage was trying for a "touch" attack (where no net hits are needed, a tie is sufficient). I am split myself on that one as to if I would really use such a rule at my own table.

QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ May 12 2009, 03:50 AM) *
Narcojet: Don't you have problems with penetrating the target's armor? DMSO only let's the skin absorb the chemical. The toxin does not necessarily go through armor.

That's what "chemical protection" is for. DMSO allows skin based uptake, and nearly all modern armors are porous (think KevlarTM weave). A dart (please note, pistol size, not something to drop a charging packederm) only carries a small amount of chemical because the injection aparatus has to be relatively massive. A capsule is all chemical. I only need a little bit to get through the armor. If the bad guys all suddenlky start wearing chemical resistant armor (hey, it's Seatle in 2070. Have you ever put a sample of Seatle rainwater in a GCMS? Yikes!) then I have to start shooting to avoid the worn armor.
That brings up the last point I meant to hit: the topic of the thread. I focused on the mathmatically more beneficial choice damage-wise. But say I need to hit somebody with chemical protection with a capsule/Squirt? I have to agree with the several posts that state you are shooting to avoid WORN armor. OrthoskinTM allows skin contact for SnS/Capsule/Squirt/whatever. Dermal armor is under the skin. Mystic Armor absorbs force, and all I need is a touch. Same for the Armor spell. And the AP is merely applied to the remaining NON-WORN armor values, if any.
Example: I have on my Urban Explorer JumpsuitTM (6B/6I) that I have turned into an elegant evening dress with the Fashion spell. (Don't tell me nobody's thought of that. Previous editions had armored pantyhose. That suggests it should count toward the "approximately the same amount of area" restriction.) Under that my Half-body Form Fitting Body ArmorTM (4B,1I). That gives me 10B/7I, and due to the special rules on FFBA, my Bod 4 character can wear it null sweat. If I also had OrthoskinTM and Mystic Armor (amazing what a couple points of Magic loss will buy you) you can never shoot "around" or "past" those. So you suffer a -7 dice pool penalty (remember, chemical vector attacks usually use Impact), and if you hit, I apply my Mystic Armor and OrthoskinTM to the capsule damage, but you still get your "touch" to apply the toxin.

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback.

Oh, last thought: Is posting all in another color actually against the rules? I didn't see that any place (I haven't read EVERYTHING yet) and I have always liked that. If the specific color is an issue, I'm happy to change it up. But if I were to be so inclined, Toturi, you'd never hear the round that got you, sugar. *sexy wink*

rathmun
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 10 2009, 03:42 PM) *
Anyone's ability to use the Force of Will attack (even have a Mundane that uses that option)


Hmm, where is this? (just haven't encountered this before.)
Lindt
Wow. Welcome to DS Kerenshara.

I like coming from the old school. I can say NO a lot. No to called shots to bypass ItNW, no called shots to bypass mystic armor, no called shots to bypass armor you cant otherwise see.

That guy in the long coat and the vest? Hes wearing form fit body armor too, but you dont know that, so you cant bypass it.

toturi
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 12 2009, 10:02 PM) *
But if I were to be so inclined, Toturi, you'd never hear the round that got you, sugar. *sexy wink*

It is not against any of the forum rules, but it prevents misunderstandings. And I can live with the round that gets me as long as it is RAW, if you can find a RAW round that can get me. I don't get other rounds and they don't get me.
ornot
Thus spake Toturi, beloved of the BBB

*cue angelic fanfare*
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Lindt @ May 12 2009, 10:37 AM) *
Wow. Welcome to DS Kerenshara.

Thanks!

QUOTE (Lindt @ May 12 2009, 10:37 AM) *
I like coming from the old school. I can say NO a lot. No to called shots to bypass ItNW, no called shots to bypass mystic armor, no called shots to bypass armor you cant otherwise see.

Absolutely. A spirit is just manifested energy, so there are no organs (extra damage) or weak spots (bypass armor). Everybody so far seems to agree Mystic Armor is universal coverage... Bueller? Bueller? Generally I would agree on the armor you can't see...

QUOTE (Lindt @ May 12 2009, 10:37 AM) *
That guy in the long coat and the vest? Hes wearing form fit body armor too, but you dont know that, so you cant bypass it.

But on the last point, I have to disagree: it's under visible armor, so bypassing the visible armor bypasses the underarmor too. Put another way, it's not about knowing it's there; It's about shooting for areas you see have less coverage. Most of the time, with very high Ballistic armors, the only thing left to shoot for is the head because everything else is covered. That's why the dice pool penalties get crazy at the high end, because that's a very tough moving target. Now, if ALL they had was FFBA, then I would say you're exactly right, no way you can bypass what you can't see if it's under clothing.
Lindt
See Ill disagree right back, and give an example. In all cases you dont 'see' that he is wearing the FFBA.

Goon A is wearing an armored jacket.
Goon B is wearing a full suit of Form Fit under his normal street clothing (its winter, deal with the fact that you wont see the armor for this example).
Goon C is wearing an armored vest over a half suit of FFBA.

Shadowrunner 1 is wearing a full set of SWAT armor /w helmet and gel packs, all the PPP extras, and also has a riot shield. He is also wearing FFBA (he REALLY dosn't like getting shot & looks like a kevlar marshmallow). He has 27b/23i.

Here is how I see it:
Goon A is easy. Call a shot and ignore his armor.
Goon B is easy. You don't think hes wearing armor. No called shot.
Goon C is harder. You know hes wearing a vest, but don't know hes wearing more then that. You can skip the vest.

Runner 1 is hard. Obviously you know hes wearing a metric shit-ton of armor. You dont know hes wearing the FFBA under that mess. You can TRY and bypass 21 points of that armor, but good luck. You might however assume (and tell your GM this while you call the shot) that he IS wearing FFBA (after all, why not at this point) and bypass that to. Though I have no idea where you would shoot him.
Kerenshara
OK, let's take these one at a time, make sure I am on the same page (not necessarily disagreeing).
QUOTE (Lindt @ May 12 2009, 06:22 PM) *
See Ill disagree right back, and give an example. In all cases you dont 'see' that he is wearing the FFBA.

Goon A is wearing an armored jacket.
Goon B is wearing a full suit of Form Fit under his normal street clothing (its winter, deal with the fact that you wont see the armor for this example).
Goon C is wearing an armored vest over a half suit of FFBA.

Shadowrunner 1 is wearing a full set of SWAT armor /w helmet and gel packs, all the PPP extras, and also has a riot shield. He is also wearing FFBA (he REALLY dosn't like getting shot & looks like a kevlar marshmallow). He has 27b/23i.

Here is how I see it:
Goon A is easy. Call a shot and ignore his armor.

No problems here.
QUOTE
Goon B is easy. You don't think hes wearing armor. No called shot.

Absolutely. (I think so far that's what I said above too, but maybe I wasn't clear.)
QUOTE
Goon C is harder. You know hes wearing a vest, but don't know hes wearing more then that. You can skip the vest.

Ah! Ok, I went the other way - FFBA under a Lined Coat as an example where the FFBA was actually LESS covering than the visible armor. By the rule of thumb I meant to give, I would have to agree with this too since that FFBA is more protective in terms of area. This is the category where a little common sense has to dictate. So it penalizes the person in the FFBA slightly to let them ignore the lesser versions more easily. But that's the drawback to lesser armor, and to be honest, it's a little "cheesey" to begine with. (Don't let my GM hear I said that.) It clearly states in the descriptions which body parts are covered. To get the benefit of the full body protection, you HAVE to wear the gloves, socks and hood. Without them it's partial body. Partial body covers T-shirt & boxers. The lowest version is a tank top, mainly covering the vitals only. So if you have an armor jacket and the shirt only, bypassing the jacket bypasses the FFBA too, because they cover the same area regardless if you knew it was there. The next level covers legs the jacket does not, so you get the protection of the FFBA even if you bypass the jacket.
QUOTE
Runner 1 is hard. Obviously you know hes wearing a metric shit-ton of armor. You dont know hes wearing the FFBA under that mess. You can TRY and bypass 21 points of that armor, but good luck. You might however assume (and tell your GM this while you call the shot) that he IS wearing FFBA (after all, why not at this point) and bypass that to. Though I have no idea where you would shoot him.

That's just it: here, bypassing the main armor is harder than bypassing the long johns: virtually impossible. You are aiming to hit at an up angle under the bloody chin trying to hit the jugular. Ick. So I would just charge for what's visible because it's largely irrelevant about the FFBA's coverage. The diference between bypassing 21 points and 16 points is largely moot: Stat 9 + Skill 6 + 2 specialization + 2 gear = 19 dice. 19 - 17 = 2. Um, no. And as always, it is up to the GM to decide if there is even a weak point to hit. The Kevlar Mashmallow ManTM is a hobbling tank. I would agree if my GM just gave me "that look". I wouldn't even ask once he described the idiot.
I don't think we really disagree fundamentally, I am just less willing to be hard and fast when a tiny amount of common sense will suffice nicely, and we won't let somebody so lost to the "role playing" side of this to insist them can bypass the KMMTM come back for a second session.
Can we agree on that much? I conceed that I hadn't considered the FFBA being more covering than the top visible armor. But the rest is a little common sense and a rule of thumb. At the outside weird extremes, EVERY game breaks down, and that's why we need a GM.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (rathmun @ May 12 2009, 07:02 AM) *
Hmm, where is this? (just haven't encountered this before.)



Page 94 of Street Magic, under Heading Attack of Will...
It is a little risky, especially if you are Mundane, but it does indeed work...
Lindt
Other then option C (where I said vest specifically because its small coverage), yeah we do. But your sensible point wins.

Can we keep you? I mean well thought out arguments, polite, articulate? You should give lessons on how not to sound like an ass on a message board.
toturi
QUOTE (Lindt @ May 13 2009, 07:22 AM) *
Goon A is wearing an armored jacket.
Goon B is wearing a full suit of Form Fit under his normal street clothing (its winter, deal with the fact that you wont see the armor for this example).
Goon C is wearing an armored vest over a half suit of FFBA.

Shadowrunner 1 is wearing a full set of SWAT armor /w helmet and gel packs, all the PPP extras, and also has a riot shield. He is also wearing FFBA (he REALLY dosn't like getting shot & looks like a kevlar marshmallow). He has 27b/23i.

Here is how I see it:
Goon A is easy. Call a shot and ignore his armor.
Goon B is easy. You don't think hes wearing armor. No called shot.
Goon C is harder. You know hes wearing a vest, but don't know hes wearing more then that. You can skip the vest.

Runner 1 is hard. Obviously you know hes wearing a metric shit-ton of armor. You dont know hes wearing the FFBA under that mess. You can TRY and bypass 21 points of that armor, but good luck. You might however assume (and tell your GM this while you call the shot) that he IS wearing FFBA (after all, why not at this point) and bypass that to. Though I have no idea where you would shoot him.

I do not yet have SR4A, so I can't comment on how high or low the Threshold should be or if there are any other fundamental changes to the rules. But here is what I think from a SR4 perspective:
Goon 1 - There is no need to roll for Perception check or a low Threshold.
Goon 2 - Higher Perception Threshold
Goon 3 - Higher Perception Threshold
In both cases for Goons 2 and 3, you are looking for some place unprotected. You are not looking for where he is armored, but where the target is not.

Runner 1 - Very high Perception Threshold

However this all goes out the window once Edge and Long Shot comes in. You are praying that you hit some place where there is no armor even though you cannot actually see one.

Due to the abstract nature of the armor rules, the heavier the armor, it is presumed that it is harder to have some place that is unprotected, but it is still possible. You could be wrapped head to toe in kevlar like a 2070s mummy but there is still some place (although it may be extremely difficult to find) that the armor does not protect you.
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Lindt @ May 12 2009, 08:35 PM) *
Other then option C (where I said vest specifically because its small coverage), yeah we do. But your sensible point wins.

Can we keep you? I mean well thought out arguments, polite, articulate? You should give lessons on how not to sound like an ass on a message board.

*Hides a gentle blush*

Well, thank you. Of course you can keep me, but I'm afraid you're going to have to share...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 12 2009, 08:25 PM) *
*Hides a gentle blush*

Well, thank you. Of course you can keep me, but I'm afraid you're going to have to share...



Nothing wrong with sharing...
Kerenshara
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ May 12 2009, 10:33 PM) *
Nothing wrong with sharing...

*gives a sly sidways glance as her lips quirk upwards in a teasing smile*

You don't say?
The Jake
I have a rule in my group - whatever rules you guys abuse, so will the bad guys.

That keeps the most rampant abuses in check...

- J.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ May 12 2009, 09:57 PM) *
*gives a sly sidways glance as her lips quirk upwards in a teasing smile*

You don't say?


I love to share.

And be shared.

Rawr~

BTW, for the shadowruner 1 above, with 27 points of armor: his body would have to be 14 or he'd be immobile!
Lindt
Hey, we get enough inarticulate morons around here (anyone remember Creepwood?), so people who can communicate in fully developed arguments are welcome.

Draco, meh, I was proving a point and needed the insane example. In reality would be slightly lower then that, 12 I think? FFBA counts as half (3/1 IIRC) for encumbrance, and I don't know if the riot shield does at all.

Toturi, no clue what so ever. I havent read more about Sr4a then "I love it" or "I hate it". Its not in dead tree format yet and in my hands, thus it does not exist in my little world. Consider this one of the topics (original intent of the thread) that by sr3 rules I would have looked at and had an answer for. Now, not so much.
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