Full Version: Why is Mystic Adept cheaper than Magician?
Don't underestimate how effective watching is. Unlike D&D fantasy, you're fighting societies and organisations in Shadowrun. If a mage is following you around, the lone star HTRT will find you... eventually.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 12:04 AM) 
Actually that line up only costs 1/2 a mil which is considerably less than just the delta synaptic boosters 
Really though you can make a perfectly well rounded sammie built around the equipment I linked before, it's hardly munchkinitis. The guy has B&E capability, is extremely stealth capability, perception, and can perform covert assassinations at close and long range. Weakest area is, as always, legwork - but you've going to use him for survillance, shadowing etc.
Really though you can make a perfectly well rounded sammie built around the equipment I linked before, it's hardly munchkinitis. The guy has B&E capability, is extremely stealth capability, perception, and can perform covert assassinations at close and long range. Weakest area is, as always, legwork - but you've going to use him for survillance, shadowing etc.
I said overboard, not munchie. And I assumed you'd want better than base 'ware. I guess I was trying to point out that if we're beyond early characters (how fast does the nuyen come in for YOUR team in the early going?) we might as well jump to prime runners with final cinematic builds. Yours was certainly less bad than some I have seen; At least it was more in line with something a "real" sammie might consider, and things like bioware are more "upgradable" so they could be added onto later.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 3 2009, 12:02 AM)
Karenshara:
No putting all 5 out of 5 points into spellcasting isn't not exploring the MA's nature... especially if the player takes adept powers as he develops. Such a char is pretty gimped compared to a straight magician w/o astral perception already. And to get astral perception he has to sacrifice a point of magic. The problem comes down to 'astral scrubbing' and counterspelling... any spells he casts and sustains can be dispelled by an astral mage pretty much at will. Any spells he casts will leave astral signatures which will point right back at him and lead to a fairly short life as a shadow mage.
That line in there, is mostly to prevent this abuse. I'm playing a straight adept... but I buy MA just so I can learn counterspelling... nothing else, just counterspelling (rather than buying the adept power of magic resistance w/ PP). That is abuse to me.
A similar weaker case, where instead of killing hands for spirits... you could use the attack of will (street magic) as a face type adept and replace it w/ the skill banishing.
No putting all 5 out of 5 points into spellcasting isn't not exploring the MA's nature... especially if the player takes adept powers as he develops. Such a char is pretty gimped compared to a straight magician w/o astral perception already. And to get astral perception he has to sacrifice a point of magic. The problem comes down to 'astral scrubbing' and counterspelling... any spells he casts and sustains can be dispelled by an astral mage pretty much at will. Any spells he casts will leave astral signatures which will point right back at him and lead to a fairly short life as a shadow mage.
That line in there, is mostly to prevent this abuse. I'm playing a straight adept... but I buy MA just so I can learn counterspelling... nothing else, just counterspelling (rather than buying the adept power of magic resistance w/ PP). That is abuse to me.
A similar weaker case, where instead of killing hands for spirits... you could use the attack of will (street magic) as a face type adept and replace it w/ the skill banishing.
I didn't say 5 of 5, I said 6 of 6, max for a starting character. At least that's what I think I said. I was talking about taking 5/1 or 1/5 being perfectly acceptable at start, so long as you were really working on it. The only time I think taking less might be apropriate is if your initial magic score was 3 or less, and I would say at 2 I would not worry too much. But that's not the case. As to your taking MA just for counterspelling and never taking a single point in sorcery... you can't. If you need a "spellcasting Magic score" of >0, you would need a single point, which would be fine. IOW, you can't counterspell with [Counterspelling + 0]. If you could, just having ANY magic score would be sufficient and a regular adept could take it. Remember, when dealing with a Mystic Adept, ONLY the points put into spellcasting count for "Mage" related powers. SR4A, P.122: Only characters with the Magician or Mystic Adept quality and a Magic attribute of 1 or greater may take or use Magic skills. As to dispelling my spells, you can't touch them from the astral, unles they're in a sustaining focus. And if I have Extended Masking, you have to beat my masking first to be able to target the active (dual-natured) foci from the astral. And I will eventually take Astral Perception so I can assense people - a very useful ability. Low level spells have their astral signatures fade more quickly, and I dial the mojo to the minimum for the job, always. The only mention of NEEDING assensing or astral access is SR4A, P.198: The initiate must have assensed someone else’s astral signature in order to forge it. The other functions of Flexible Signature don't mention needing anything at all.
kerenshara: you don't use your magic attribute for counterspelling.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 2 2009, 09:14 PM)
So wait, we're comparing the monetary cost, but not the essence cost, conceability or availibity? Damn, well, lets just compare on the basis of essence cost then, I imagine that will create a meaningful comparison.
See, I can get this bling for less essence, it must be better.
Snip
Actually wait no that is a stupid comparison.
See, I can get this bling for less essence, it must be better.
Snip
Actually wait no that is a stupid comparison.
Ahh, Smartassery. Impossible to pick that up all that chargen. Synaptic Boosters 3 is 240k by itself - good luck not dying long enough to afford the rest of your toys.
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kerenshara: you don't use your magic attribute for counterspelling.
You do for sustained spells.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 3 2009, 12:23 AM)
kerenshara: you don't use your magic attribute for counterspelling.
You do not for Spell Defense. You do for Dispelling.
Regardless, you loose 'all magical abilities' if your Magic is reduced to 0. Not if your Magic dedicated to spellcasting is reduced to 0, or some other similar situation.
There is nothing requiring a Mystic Adept to have points dedicated to spellcasting to use Counterspelling, & they could even technically cast spells if they dedicated points to Spellcasting (they would just be Force 0, & thus have no actual effect).
Jaid:
Interesting just double checked that... learn something new... the dispelling rules explicitly say that the dispeller needs to be on the same plane. It doesn't say the spell isn't active on the astral though.
If you have an active focus or an active spell... it is clearly visible on the astral. Since astral only mana barriers will stop an active spell or focus, we'd always assumed that they were targetable in the astral, if not the character benefiting. (not grounding out... just removing the spell effect)
Also interesting, because Digital Grimoire, had the Disrupt [Focus] combat spel... as a direct LOS spell that would be usable while astral, and the book states active foci have an active form on the astral.
I understand the point on empathic... but it's a stretch to say it's not magical healing, it's an adept power. So if you use it, you're just moving damage to yourself to first aid away, then try to heal yourself. In fact, the power states it's subject to all the same modifiers as magical healing by spell... if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's most likely a duck.
On the skill itself, again I understand your point regards how many boxes can be healed. However, it's unlikely... remember first-aid is a threshhold 2 test. Meaning to heal 6 boxes you need 8 hits. (after taking dice penalties for cyber/magic/unsanitized field conditions/self wounds). Failing that, the straight mage w/ mag6 and same focus would be rolling 3 more dice on the heal spell.
Interesting just double checked that... learn something new... the dispelling rules explicitly say that the dispeller needs to be on the same plane. It doesn't say the spell isn't active on the astral though.
If you have an active focus or an active spell... it is clearly visible on the astral. Since astral only mana barriers will stop an active spell or focus, we'd always assumed that they were targetable in the astral, if not the character benefiting. (not grounding out... just removing the spell effect)
Also interesting, because Digital Grimoire, had the Disrupt [Focus] combat spel... as a direct LOS spell that would be usable while astral, and the book states active foci have an active form on the astral.
I understand the point on empathic... but it's a stretch to say it's not magical healing, it's an adept power. So if you use it, you're just moving damage to yourself to first aid away, then try to heal yourself. In fact, the power states it's subject to all the same modifiers as magical healing by spell... if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's most likely a duck.
On the skill itself, again I understand your point regards how many boxes can be healed. However, it's unlikely... remember first-aid is a threshhold 2 test. Meaning to heal 6 boxes you need 8 hits. (after taking dice penalties for cyber/magic/unsanitized field conditions/self wounds). Failing that, the straight mage w/ mag6 and same focus would be rolling 3 more dice on the heal spell.
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jun 3 2009, 01:17 PM)
If not the setting, then what should they be modeled upon? Or are you suggesting that the rules come first and that the setting should thus incorporate every facet of the rules - including wildly silly corner cases?
BTW, your weak attempts to reverse my statements into your arguments with are getting pretty lame - you're sounding like the jackass mentor from Mystery Men. If you have something to say, try being a bit more straightforward with less game-playing.
BTW, your weak attempts to reverse my statements into your arguments with are getting pretty lame - you're sounding like the jackass mentor from Mystery Men. If you have something to say, try being a bit more straightforward with less game-playing.
It does not matter which ever comes first. That decision is up to the writers and developers. What we see as the setting is different for everyone but the rules remain the same. The rules should be able to produce whatever is possible in the setting including wildly silly corner cases.
I have tried so far to refrain from making personal comments. I will say instead that game playing is straightforward if you play it by RAW.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 3 2009, 01:13 AM)
I said overboard, not munchie. And I assumed you'd want better than base 'ware. I guess I was trying to point out that if we're beyond early characters (how fast does the nuyen come in for YOUR team in the early going?) we might as well jump to prime runners with final cinematic builds. Yours was certainly less bad than some I have seen; At least it was more in line with something a "real" sammie might consider, and things like bioware are more "upgradable" so they could be added onto later.
Yeah, getting better than base bioware is a stupidly long term objective. It has 'low essence cost' built right in, so you're not looking to pick up high costs.
that is the starting package I'd recommend for pretty much any street sammie - hence I was discussing starting characters. You can make that straight out of the basic book. It's flexible so you can move with the campaign, it's expandable (unlike builds with wired reflexes ho ho ho) so you can get new stuff installed, it isn't measurably illegal so you are unobtrusive so there are few risks regardless of the setting picked.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 2 2009, 10:02 PM)
Way to go you FINALLY made a semi-usefull MA... after I pointed out the char concept as one of the few usefull ones how many pages ago?! After specifically pointing out that a MA w/ a good mentor and specialization in a single line of spells like health can be effective.
Oh, my other characters are plenty useful, you just have blinders on. Which brings us to the crux of why you think M.A.'s suck:
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Though to critique... this is a char who really wants astral perception, most of the adept healing abilities are junk. Astral perception also has medical uses (think of it as a magical CAT scan ability) in assisting diagnosing things in the field. Plus EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR ADEPTS HAS LACKED THE ABILITY TO WIPE OUT HIS ASTRAL SIGNATURES!!! despite having a spellcasting focus... they leave spellcasting fingerprints all over the place. Those will get you tracked down and eliminated. Using stunbolt in combat will need to be wiped, in fact w/ your low magic you're really better off w/ a gun than an attack spell outside your specialty. The primary reason to have a direct combat spell is to defend yourself against spirits and astral mages.
As I have pointed out several times, most of my M.A. spells are either: A. Not going to leave a signature where they have to worry about it being assensed (such as their body) or B. Get cast at such a low level I would be surprised if someone would find the time to get a Mage, have them find the spell's signature (which would require them to assense many many cubic feat of area - it's not as if already cast spells exude shimmery "look at me" signs. C. I can diagnose people with first aid. It's a complex action. Why waste points getting assesing high enough to get 3 success (the amount you need to actually determine the cause of injury/illness)?
Besides, your bleeting about Astral Signatures is misplaced. You can't use a signature to track a mage. Page 193, SR4a: "Active spells are linked to their casters, spirits are linked to their casters, astrally projecting mages are linked to their physical bodies, and foci and magical lodges are linked to the magicians who activated them." So what do Astral signatures do? They allow a mage to recognize a signature if they see it again by that same mage. So, uh, wah? I need to astrally perceive why again?
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Read the astral section of the book. W/O extended masking you stand out like a sore thumb on the astral already. Now you're adding active spells to make your brightly glowing aura glow even brighter. And don't forget, your increase reflexes spell is only one counter spell from being wiped out. Especially by a purely astral projecting mage you can do nothing about.
Your magic is way too high... 5/5 is enough... ditch the worthless adept heals. That's why you have the heal spell right. Actually read Pain relief... 5minute per box healed... you're almost better just taking a nap under medical supervision.
empathic healing.. pointless only transfers physical.. and you can only apply magical healing once per set of wounds (just like you can only apply first aid once, and only before magical healing).
Your magic is way too high... 5/5 is enough... ditch the worthless adept heals. That's why you have the heal spell right. Actually read Pain relief... 5minute per box healed... you're almost better just taking a nap under medical supervision.
empathic healing.. pointless only transfers physical.. and you can only apply magical healing once per set of wounds (just like you can only apply first aid once, and only before magical healing).
These points have all been countered. So I light up in the astral, so friggen what? Astral mage is going to manifest and.... what? Be stern?
Worthless adept heals? Actually, now that I think about it, Pain Relief does kind of suck. I didn't notice the threshold before; that really gimps it. lame! I'm taking that power out. But Empathic Healing is pretty good: I get to heal the same set of wounds twice with it. Let's do the numbers:
[ Spoiler ]
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You also quickly illustrate one of the problems mystic adepts suffer. In order to bring their magic up to usable... they really need to rely heavily on focus crutches. (power focus). So much so that a minor background count hurts you a bit. (in fact, a strong case can be made for going for a better power focus using restricted gear and dropping magic from 6->5). And to really be combat worthy, you'd want a sustaining focus for your increase reflexes.
Several of my builds use no Foci. Try not to ignore them. My M.A.'s don't use spells against people who are resisting, so you don't really need a gigantic dice pool; Band-aid is the only one, and I'm thinking about changing that.
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In the end, if you're out just to heal like this... what do you gain by going MA over magician. A logic tradition mage, would have a much more potent spellcasting pool (especially w/ the power focus). All for 3 less dice on the first aid check, and a bunch of magical healings you can't use more than one of anyhow.
3 less dice, and also 3 less boxes potentially healed - First Aid does not let you heal more boxes than you have first aid skill points. Empathic healing lets him heal ~3 more boxes on top of that.
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The key to making this adept work and differentiate it from the straight mage is to give it some character and branch it out a little more into other adept powers as fitting.
Hmm, what on earth have I done five times over now? Show me a mage who can duplicate the abilities that any of my M.A.'s can do. The closest you can get is with my security rigger (which you hate, by the way), and even then Astral projection/perception is useless to a character that spends most of its time in VR.
Edit: Did a few changes to Band-Aid, scenario changed slightly but bottom line remains the same.
QUOTE (Octopiii @ Jun 3 2009, 03:43 AM)
Oh, my other characters are plenty useful, you just have blinders on. Which brings us to the crux of why you think M.A.'s suck:
These points have all been countered. So I light up in the astral, so friggen what? Astral mage is going to manifest and.... what? Be stern?
These points have all been countered. So I light up in the astral, so friggen what? Astral mage is going to manifest and.... what? Be stern?
Err, call lone star? Repeatedly? Until you die? A tactic for which there is only one counter? Which you don't have? Part of this thread seems to be the assumption that the GM is only going to give you challenges you can deal with effectively, at which point you may as well be totally unable to do anything except shoot.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 01:03 AM)
Err, call lone star? Repeatedly? Until you die? A tactic for which there is only one counter? Which you don't have? Part of this thread seems to be the assumption that the GM is only going to give you challenges you can deal with effectively, at which point you may as well be totally unable to do anything except shoot.
"Oh, dear, Lone Star sir, this person has a spell on his person! Please come, and take him away!" Spells are not illegal per se. If i'm in a corp facility, they're definitely not calling Lone Star: that sticky extra-territoriality thing and all.
If you're in an area you're not supposed to be, such as in a back room in a party, it really doesn't matter if you have spells up or not. They see your aura in the astral, they call security. Awakened or Mundane, so I'm not sure the difference here. That's when the teams Mage (you do remember a Mystic Adept is not a Mage, correct?) does something about it. Or, my Mystic Adept'ss spirit: "Spirit, if someone comes sniffing around us astrally, destroy them. Thanks." Hell, I don't even need astral perception, I have my spirit-summoner link.
Why wouldn't Ares call knight errant? They are actually the same people.
Anyway, that aside - its not purely the spotting you that is important. It's the ability to follow you that really counts. Without any ability to 'shake' the tail you're screwed.
Incidentally, one spirit will lose against an astrally projecting mage because he is there, and you are not. Presumably he will have his own spirits (and watchers!) but can also throw his own weight into the fight.
As for the role duplication.. yeah, thats role duplication. Lets go back to that list of what we need to do
Doubling up somewhere just makes you weak somewhere else - it's like Sun Tzu said "Strong on the left, weak on the right, strong in the centre, weak on the wings, strong everwhere - weak everywhere"
If you double up on summoning, healing, magery etc (because lets face it, a mystic adept with summoning, some spells, counterspelling etc does a lot of what a mage does), you're going to eat it somewhere else. In a party of three with two mages, I suspect you're going to lose out on the rigging or the talking, but YMMV.
Anyway, that aside - its not purely the spotting you that is important. It's the ability to follow you that really counts. Without any ability to 'shake' the tail you're screwed.
Incidentally, one spirit will lose against an astrally projecting mage because he is there, and you are not. Presumably he will have his own spirits (and watchers!) but can also throw his own weight into the fight.
As for the role duplication.. yeah, thats role duplication. Lets go back to that list of what we need to do
QUOTE
Cast Healing Magic.
Use a Medkit.
Kill Things.
Operate heavy machinery.
Stealthfully enter restricted areas.
Fast talk themselves into restricted areas.
Successfully fight a force 8 spirit by themselves.
Spy magically.
Spy electronically.
Spy optically.
Control escape routes with their mind.
Collect information from the Matrix.
Track down restricted equipment.
Bypass doors.
Destroy entire installations.
Triangle Button cars.
Smuggle PCs into/out of various countries.
Use a Medkit.
Kill Things.
Operate heavy machinery.
Stealthfully enter restricted areas.
Fast talk themselves into restricted areas.
Successfully fight a force 8 spirit by themselves.
Spy magically.
Spy electronically.
Spy optically.
Control escape routes with their mind.
Collect information from the Matrix.
Track down restricted equipment.
Bypass doors.
Destroy entire installations.
Triangle Button cars.
Smuggle PCs into/out of various countries.
Doubling up somewhere just makes you weak somewhere else - it's like Sun Tzu said "Strong on the left, weak on the right, strong in the centre, weak on the wings, strong everwhere - weak everywhere"
If you double up on summoning, healing, magery etc (because lets face it, a mystic adept with summoning, some spells, counterspelling etc does a lot of what a mage does), you're going to eat it somewhere else. In a party of three with two mages, I suspect you're going to lose out on the rigging or the talking, but YMMV.
Yes, yes, but then again, does having more than one person who has a gun and sneak around make a team worthless? No.
As to tracking - First, a Mage can only project for (magic) hours. At the end of that time, his astral form dies and his meat body goes into a permanent coma. So, I don't think a Mage is going to randomly gallivant around in the astral unless he has a good reason at that moment. It's kind of like how Lone Star could place a SWAT team at every street corner, but don't, as it it's a waste of resources. The built in time limit gives us an inherent "shake the tail" - he can't follow us forever; and when he goes back to inform someone where we're at, he'll have to re-find the team again. Astral projection is not quite the "I win!" button you make it out to be.
As to astral combat: I have an advantage - they cannot effect me at all if I don't project/perceive. So I can summon, and summon, and summon, but I can tell my spirit to focus on the mage, who will eventually go down.
As to tracking - First, a Mage can only project for (magic) hours. At the end of that time, his astral form dies and his meat body goes into a permanent coma. So, I don't think a Mage is going to randomly gallivant around in the astral unless he has a good reason at that moment. It's kind of like how Lone Star could place a SWAT team at every street corner, but don't, as it it's a waste of resources. The built in time limit gives us an inherent "shake the tail" - he can't follow us forever; and when he goes back to inform someone where we're at, he'll have to re-find the team again. Astral projection is not quite the "I win!" button you make it out to be.
As to astral combat: I have an advantage - they cannot effect me at all if I don't project/perceive. So I can summon, and summon, and summon, but I can tell my spirit to focus on the mage, who will eventually go down.
QUOTE (Octopiii @ Jun 3 2009, 10:43 AM)
Next, our Mage then casts Heal at force 4, with a dv of (4/2-2=0). With 12 dice to resist drain, I think he can handle that.
No, Heal has drain (damage-2). So if I calculated right, mage has to resist drain (14-2) = 12S. Ouch.
Assuming average 4 hits, that is still 8S. He might be bit woozy after that.
Oops, you're right! Still, I think it's Drain = Damage value you choose to heal, right? If it's not, then it's probably best to do Empathic Healing first.
QUOTE (Octopiii @ Jun 3 2009, 04:45 AM)
Yes, yes, but then again, does having more than one person who has a gun and sneak around make a team worthless? No.
Sure, but the weakest link gets caught with stealth. Conversely, you don't usually want 3 guys who all have the same counter spelling pool because only 1 applies, nor do you want 3 guys who can all triangle button cars. You also don't need two guys with black market skillz - the one guy can just do that for everyone.
It's like you don't want two demolitions experts either.
[ Spoiler ]
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 01:53 AM)
Sure, but the weakest link gets caught with stealth. Conversely, you don't usually want 3 guys who all have the same counter spelling pool because only 1 applies, nor do you want 3 guys who can all triangle button cars. You also don't need two guys with black market skillz - the one guy can just do that for everyone.
It's like you don't want two demolitions experts either.
It's like you don't want two demolitions experts either.
[ Spoiler ]
Mages beyond the first with Counterspelling count as team-work, so on average the other two guys are adding a die each to your spell resistance. P.185. I don't see doubling up on magic ability nearly the same as doubling up on black market connections or demolitions- they're not even close to the same amount of usefulness as magic ability.
I think Ghost Cartels is not really intended for starting characters. If we start moving into that realm, why not have two mages with 4 bound spirits? Or 3? Second, I don't think it works on me because they need to manifest to have an effect upon me, in which case I have my team backing me up in that fight. Last, Watchers have a terrible dice pool, and they WILL die if I sick a spirit on them.
Also, your example has another problem.
You first aid the guy, then you heal the guy. (Once heal is used, you cannot use magical healing again, and you can't use heal on someone who's been magically healed already).
Then you empathic him (go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. another magical healing... you either heal or you empathic, one, not both)
I see the partial value in it for giving 2 cracks at first aid... one on him, once on me.
Also, first aid is limited by the higher of two things... the quality of the medkit (EG: anyone can heal 6 boxes w/ a rating 6), or your skill. Granted having the skill is by far preferable. But to get 6, we need 8 net hits anyhow, AFTER PENALTIES. (I'm always amazed how many people forget to add the negative dice pool mods that first aid/medicine impose) then turn around and complain about fast healing in the game.
Also, astral signatures can be written down and described. Think of it a an APB of sorts. It wouldn't shock me if the magic division cops have their own version of 'fingerprint' software for identifying mages traces left behind at crime scenes.
You first aid the guy, then you heal the guy. (Once heal is used, you cannot use magical healing again, and you can't use heal on someone who's been magically healed already).
Then you empathic him (go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. another magical healing... you either heal or you empathic, one, not both)
I see the partial value in it for giving 2 cracks at first aid... one on him, once on me.
Also, first aid is limited by the higher of two things... the quality of the medkit (EG: anyone can heal 6 boxes w/ a rating 6), or your skill. Granted having the skill is by far preferable. But to get 6, we need 8 net hits anyhow, AFTER PENALTIES. (I'm always amazed how many people forget to add the negative dice pool mods that first aid/medicine impose) then turn around and complain about fast healing in the game.
Also, astral signatures can be written down and described. Think of it a an APB of sorts. It wouldn't shock me if the magic division cops have their own version of 'fingerprint' software for identifying mages traces left behind at crime scenes.
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Why wouldn't Ares call knight errant? They are actually the same people.
Why doesn't the National Park Service call in the US Army Rangers? They are actually the same people (US Federal Governement).
No.
Just because a security company is part of the same megacorp as another branch - like Ares Aerospace and Knight Errant - does not make them the 'same people'. Megacorps are just way too big for that kind of thinking - just as thinking of all branches of the US government as a the 'smae people' is an error. Besides, there are likely as many Ares-owned facilities using non-KE (or other Ares-owned) security providers in situations where the Ares-owned companies were underbid for the contract.
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 3 2009, 01:23 AM)
kerenshara: you don't use your magic attribute for counterspelling.
Yeah, the presentation suked. It was getting late. I knew what I was shooting for (I think I got it out finally in a usable form where I quoted from the BBB about needing the stat to take the skill) but never went back to finish editing the post before I hit "add". Sorry.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 3 2009, 01:36 AM)
There is nothing requiring a Mystic Adept to have points dedicated to spellcasting to use Counterspelling, & they could even technically cast spells if they dedicated points to Spellcasting (they would just be Force 0, & thus have no actual effect).
And the wording is STILL drekky in SR4A about how the split magic stat is applied. What lets a Mystic Adept do "magey" things is the single point they were EXPECTED to have put into casting at least minimal spells. If they never put a point into magic, they can't "cast", so how could they "counter cast"? I am sure it could be argued, but between the disclaimer about "really exploring their nature" and the FAQ "clarifications" about split application, and the fact that you DO need the split stat component to DISSPEL a sustained spell - that IS part of the skill - I think it logically stands to reason that if you built a MA with no points in the spellcasting split, you would not have access to counterspelling per the rule for all Magic-Linked skills - otherwise adepts would be on the approved list too. They probably didn't bother to be explicit because they couldn't think of anybody choosing to build a character that way. Most "broken" characters in any game system wind up occuring in the areas the Devs never bother wandering into.
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Jun 3 2009, 09:12 AM)
Why doesn't the National Park Service call in the US Army Rangers? They are actually the same people (US Federal Governement).
No.
Just because a security company is part of the same megacorp as another branch - like Ares Aerospace and Knight Errant - does not make them the 'same people'. Megacorps are just way too big for that kind of thinking - just as thinking of all branches of the US government as a the 'smae people' is an error. Besides, there are likely as many Ares-owned facilities using non-KE (or other Ares-owned) security providers in situations where the Ares-owned companies were underbid for the contract.
No.
Just because a security company is part of the same megacorp as another branch - like Ares Aerospace and Knight Errant - does not make them the 'same people'. Megacorps are just way too big for that kind of thinking - just as thinking of all branches of the US government as a the 'smae people' is an error. Besides, there are likely as many Ares-owned facilities using non-KE (or other Ares-owned) security providers in situations where the Ares-owned companies were underbid for the contract.
The original position was that megacorps don't have on call security details because they are extraterritorial
I said that is total madness - why wouldn't Ares have off site/on call security details - KE is actually part of the same business (and thus wouldn't violate jurisdiction you get the idea) and they provide off site/on call security details
Now you're are rampantly agreeing with me by saying that they DO have off site/on call security details - from a range of vendors and thus jurisdiction in mega-corporate environments can even be delegated.
Why is my position wrong? (incidently if you go out of insane-o land, the national park service would call in the cops, which is a pretty standard response)
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 02:12 AM)
Yeah, getting better than base bioware is a stupidly long term objective. It has 'low essence cost' built right in, so you're not looking to pick up high costs.
that is the starting package I'd recommend for pretty much any street sammie - hence I was discussing starting characters. You can make that straight out of the basic book. It's flexible so you can move with the campaign, it's expandable (unlike builds with wired reflexes ho ho ho) so you can get new stuff installed, it isn't measurably illegal so you are unobtrusive so there are few risks regardless of the setting picked.
that is the starting package I'd recommend for pretty much any street sammie - hence I was discussing starting characters. You can make that straight out of the basic book. It's flexible so you can move with the campaign, it's expandable (unlike builds with wired reflexes ho ho ho) so you can get new stuff installed, it isn't measurably illegal so you are unobtrusive so there are few risks regardless of the setting picked.
I personally really like the "sneaky" aspect of your build, but I can't help thinking it's awfully... I'm not sure honestly what bothers me. Something is missing. Personally, I would rather (starting out) cut it back to just the first extra IP and add something else in place. You shouldn't be facing security (or whatever) jacked that hard that you require three passes to start. I mean, how many NPCs in the modules have that level of speed that aren't leutenant or higher? How many people don't even have a second pass early on (or even later)? I guess that's it after all: too much emphasis (for me) on the IP. Drek, go ahead and install Reaction Enhancers instead of the bonus level and I would probably sign off more easily. It's preference, mostly. I forget now it it was you or not any more, but remember that EVERY item that isn't shielded by a RF Blocking sheath is going to show up on a CyberScanner (read: millimeter wave penetrating radar). This technology (surface only scans for now) is in prototype already for use at airports, and isn't much more massive than the usual MAD gateway. It provides an image of the full body with clear representations of all objects about the body. Anything non-organic with any density is going to have a chance to show. And if you're serious about protecting a site, you want to know about the sammy walking in the door if you can. And as a final note on that line, computers don't just recognize faces: they recognize objects. You didn't assemble your monofilament whip from a dowel, an eye hook and a piece of monofilament dental floss. You got it pre-made, and I guarantee you every decent corp is going to have a fully up-to-date registry of every "F" and "R" item in production or made in the last couple decades in a database the gateway can register, and flag items as contraband, going so far even as to highlight them for the guard as to where to look. Chem Sniffers would also be a logical synergistic technology. So it's not all about the MAD signature - that's low security stuff anyhow.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 03:03 AM)
Err, call lone star? Repeatedly? Until you die? A tactic for which there is only one counter? Which you don't have? Part of this thread seems to be the assumption that the GM is only going to give you challenges you can deal with effectively, at which point you may as well be totally unable to do anything except shoot.
Emphasis mine.
Thank you.
There is a world of diference between "that you can [not] deal with effectively" and "beyond your level". As long as the power level is comparable (meaning neither overpowered nor pointless) to your own, it's the GM's responsibility to stretch the capabilities of the characters (and more importantly, the PLAYERS) with challengest that are NOT what they are properly suited for. If a group has no astral capability, for example, and chooses not to employ an NPC mage to correct that defficiency, then the GM is remiss if they DON'T start coming after you astrally and making your lives difficult until you get the message. I could go into other examples, but I think I made my point.
Hey look, there are rules for concealing items through checkpoints - the test is called for right there in the book.
If you follow the rules for this sort of thing, the simple fact of the matter is a guy at a checkpoint isn't going to pass the tests because his pool is going to be like 3 + 3 (skill/stat, professional rating) + 4 (vision enhancement/sensors) -4 (conceability of a monowhip) for a total DP of 6 against which he has to beat 7 (agility) + 4 (palming) or DP 11. The sammie is always going to win that game, especially because the security guard needs net successes, so even if he finds two more dice from somewhere, he still doesn't have enough going on when buying successes to beat the sammie.
Plus the other great thing about the sammie is that he just isn't suspicious. There is no other sign to give you even a modest hint that the guy is armed and extremely dangerous.
Plus the other thing is, as a monowhip is just a length of wire, some sort of spring/spoiling mechanism and a weight, the logical thing to do is make it look like something else. A big dangly earring would work well. Just a thought. I mean ina wrld in which item recognition software was very widespread, it would make sense to conceal illegal items in something else. Your cigarette case for example would work a treat. Or your belt buckle to pick a very common favourite. Heck, tucking your monowhip in your belt buckle should probably be enough, point of concealment checks
If thats not enough of course there is a weapon mod in arsenal that you could use instead.
Incidently you can get a cyberware scanner in an RFID tag and staple that to your belt - and you'd be mad not to.
If you follow the rules for this sort of thing, the simple fact of the matter is a guy at a checkpoint isn't going to pass the tests because his pool is going to be like 3 + 3 (skill/stat, professional rating) + 4 (vision enhancement/sensors) -4 (conceability of a monowhip) for a total DP of 6 against which he has to beat 7 (agility) + 4 (palming) or DP 11. The sammie is always going to win that game, especially because the security guard needs net successes, so even if he finds two more dice from somewhere, he still doesn't have enough going on when buying successes to beat the sammie.
Plus the other great thing about the sammie is that he just isn't suspicious. There is no other sign to give you even a modest hint that the guy is armed and extremely dangerous.
Plus the other thing is, as a monowhip is just a length of wire, some sort of spring/spoiling mechanism and a weight, the logical thing to do is make it look like something else. A big dangly earring would work well. Just a thought. I mean ina wrld in which item recognition software was very widespread, it would make sense to conceal illegal items in something else. Your cigarette case for example would work a treat. Or your belt buckle to pick a very common favourite. Heck, tucking your monowhip in your belt buckle should probably be enough, point of concealment checks
If thats not enough of course there is a weapon mod in arsenal that you could use instead.
Incidently you can get a cyberware scanner in an RFID tag and staple that to your belt - and you'd be mad not to.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 09:13 AM)
Hey look, there are rules for concealing items through checkpoints - the test is called for right there in the book.
If you follow the rules for this sort of thing, the simple fact of the matter is a guy at a checkpoint isn't going to pass the tests because his pool is going to be like 3 + 3 (skill/stat, professional rating) + 4 (vision enhancement/sensors) -4 (conceability of a monowhip) for a total DP of 6 against which he has to beat 7 (agility) + 4 (palming) or DP 11. The sammie is always going to win that game, especially because the security guard needs net successes, so even if he finds two more dice from somewhere, he still doesn't have enough going on when buying successes to beat the sammie.
Plus the other great thing about the sammie is that he just isn't suspicious. There is no other sign to give you even a modest hint that the guy is armed and extremely dangerous.
Plus the other thing is, as a monowhip is just a length of wire, some sort of spring/spoiling mechanism and a weight, the logical thing to do is make it look like something else. A big dangly earring would work well. Just a thought.
If you follow the rules for this sort of thing, the simple fact of the matter is a guy at a checkpoint isn't going to pass the tests because his pool is going to be like 3 + 3 (skill/stat, professional rating) + 4 (vision enhancement/sensors) -4 (conceability of a monowhip) for a total DP of 6 against which he has to beat 7 (agility) + 4 (palming) or DP 11. The sammie is always going to win that game, especially because the security guard needs net successes, so even if he finds two more dice from somewhere, he still doesn't have enough going on when buying successes to beat the sammie.
Plus the other great thing about the sammie is that he just isn't suspicious. There is no other sign to give you even a modest hint that the guy is armed and extremely dangerous.
Plus the other thing is, as a monowhip is just a length of wire, some sort of spring/spoiling mechanism and a weight, the logical thing to do is make it look like something else. A big dangly earring would work well. Just a thought.
Oh, you must have missed all the old stuff on monofilament in 1st and 2nd ed. It's fiendishly dangerous stuff. You WANT a highly controlable grip, and you NEED to be able to "reel" it away. And I wasn't talking about the cop themselves - the system rolls against your carried item's threshold(s) to send up a warning. If it tells her right where to look, and shows her a picture of what she's supposed to find, the dice pool modifier is going to be huge in their favor, and they will have REASON to be suspicious if it lists "Class 1 Contraband" as being found. The system doesn't need "net" successes, it just needs to pass a threshold using its rating. Most won't find good 'ware (Delta taking 4 hits to find), and the modifiers cap at 4 or more pieces (+2) to ping (nano-cyber is always treated as individual bits, threshold 5). THAT's why even Alphaware is so useful: takes 2 hits to find and a rating 3 scanner usually won't manage. Now do you see what I have been driving at?
I edited my post after you started writing yours I'm guessing - but yeah, if just putting it inside a lipstick tube and handing it over with the rest of the dross in your handbag isn't okay (which it should be, because a cyberware scanner is predicated on looking through oranic material which your makeup case isn't, letting your roll concealment again), using the weapon mode in arsenal that makes it indistinguishable as a weapon will make it okay - easy breakdown, 8R page 315. Then you have perfect concealment back. Just screw it together in the bathroom.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 10:38 AM)
I edited my post after you started writing yours I'm guessing - but yeah, if just putting it inside a lipstick tube and handing it over with the rest of the dross in your handbag isn't okay (which it should be, because a cyberware scanner is predicated on looking through oranic material which your makeup case isn't, letting your roll concealment again), using the weapon mode in arsenal that makes it indistinguishable as a weapon will make it okay - easy breakdown, 8R page 315. Then you have perfect concealment back. Just screw it together in the bathroom.
Okay, now you're getting someplace, but I still think a lipstick tube is going to be too small for safe control. You need to be able to have full wrist control to keep the thing from coming back on you. And easy breakdown isn't really apropriate to all weapons (as far as the disguisable thing... and how do you break down the blade of a katana?). I suppose you could have the reel in one item, the weight in another, and figure some way to use a hairbrush or something as a larger handle... but that's pushing it... a lot. And the "Running the Shadows" section at the back of the BBB expressley states a cyberscanner is good at finding concealed weapons, too. It's getting an echo off everything about your person - keys, cards, comlink, watch, condoms, comb, disinfectant gel (especially, since it could be liquid explosive - works already IRL), nazal spray, vibroknife, 'trodes, the lifts in your shoes to compensate for the height you think birth denied you, sunglasses, non-metalic silenced heavy pistol, chewing gum... you know, stuff like that; It's not just for cyberware. *grin* The cyberware scanner can penetrate low density materials, as well. Think of it like an x-ray machine mashed with an MRI in that regard. It can see inside the lipstick tube. (They wouldn't bother with the "hand it over" routine any more if the gate could do it faster and easier.)
Again, if you don't like any particular trick, the easy breakdown feature means you can disguise it as shiny bling or a trode net so it doesn't particularly matter.
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 10:17 AM)
Again, if you don't like any particular trick, the easy breakdown feature means you can disguise it as shiny bling or a trode net so it doesn't particularly matter.
Note, I did say "pushing it... a lot." I didn't say it was entirely impossible. But even then, the self-retracting spool of monofilament is going to have a CHANCE of showing up... I still say there are easier ways.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 3 2009, 04:34 AM)
Also, your example has another problem.
You first aid the guy, then you heal the guy. (Once heal is used, you cannot use magical healing again, and you can't use heal on someone who's been magically healed already).
Then you empathic him (go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. another magical healing... you either heal or you empathic, one, not both)
I see the partial value in it for giving 2 cracks at first aid... one on him, once on me.
You first aid the guy, then you heal the guy. (Once heal is used, you cannot use magical healing again, and you can't use heal on someone who's been magically healed already).
Then you empathic him (go to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200. another magical healing... you either heal or you empathic, one, not both)
I see the partial value in it for giving 2 cracks at first aid... one on him, once on me.
Empathic Heal is not the same as Heal, despite having the word "Heal" in the title. If it conflicted with the Heal spell, I would imagine that the write-up in the power's description would mention it. The only limitation given to us re: Empathic Heal is that "Empathic Heal can only be used once on any given set of wounds." Since the process does not Heal wounds (despite the name) but rather transfers them, I don't see the conflict.
QUOTE
Also, astral signatures can be written down and described. Think of it a an APB of sorts. It wouldn't shock me if the magic division cops have their own version of 'fingerprint' software for identifying mages traces left behind at crime scenes.
They can? "The suspect had an aura that reminded me of chocolate, containing swirls of daydreams and emotional unavailability. The over-all color was blue." Since the core doesn't really go into what an Astral Signatures look like, you can make it into however you want in your game, but I have a hard time seeing how a Signature can be described to someone else. I've always thought that Auras and recognition worked on a pre-cognative (i.e., magic) level - you just know if you've seen an Aura or Signature before within the heart of your magic being.
QUOTE
The original position was that megacorps don't have on call security details because they are extraterritorial
I didn't say that. I said that Lone Star was not going to be entering a facility (which is what you first stated). Once you leave extraterritorial grounds, you're ok - you haven't broken any UCAS laws, because you were not on UCAS territory.
I don't think astal signatures can be written down or transcribed. the closest you could come would be 'telephone' (the game) style by magicans playing with Flexible Signature to show the next guy down the line what the sig looked like. Even then, a copy of a copy of a copy... should lead to a diminished signature.
Actually thought of another problem w/ empathic healing. It's magical healing face it... you can say it all you want.. it's a form of magical healing, it's HEALING the target w/ magical power. It says it's subject to the exact same dice penalties to the heal spell. The heal spell states magical healing will only work once... so if you heal him... you can't empathic... if you empathic, you can't heal.
Also empathic transfer very explicitly uses the word transfer. If it's a transfer, then it eliminates a problem I just thought of... we have 2 adepts. They proceed to empathic one... then first aid... then empathic back, then first aid... if each time it's empathic'd it's a new set of wounds then it's valid, and a repetitive loop. If it's a transfer, then that damage has already been first aided away and isn't elgible for another test. I'm raising that as it's a catch-22 that only just crossed my mind.
Karenshara:
You have a very odd viewpoint coming from SR2... that's so oldschool (hehe). I pretty much missed out on SR2 and 3.. But all I can say, is a lot of the things you bring up I've never seen in the 4th rulebook.
I still don't think it's abusive for a mystic adept to start as a pure spellslinger or adept. As the cost (5BP for magician gets you so much more... and 5BP more only gives you the option to be a weak spellcaster if you're already a full adept in magic investment).
You must have missed my point... I SAID IT WAS AN ABUSE TO GO MYSTIC ADEPT ONLY TO COUNTERSPELL... and listed it explicitly as an abuse of the type I thought the text referred to. And at that point, the GM should just go... no you can't do that. Keep it up and prepare to start burning edge.
If I'm making an adept... I like to take mystic adept... just so I have the option of picking up spellcasting or summoning later. That's 5BP lost in chargen. I don't see how that's abusive at all.
Also empathic transfer very explicitly uses the word transfer. If it's a transfer, then it eliminates a problem I just thought of... we have 2 adepts. They proceed to empathic one... then first aid... then empathic back, then first aid... if each time it's empathic'd it's a new set of wounds then it's valid, and a repetitive loop. If it's a transfer, then that damage has already been first aided away and isn't elgible for another test. I'm raising that as it's a catch-22 that only just crossed my mind.
Karenshara:
You have a very odd viewpoint coming from SR2... that's so oldschool (hehe). I pretty much missed out on SR2 and 3.. But all I can say, is a lot of the things you bring up I've never seen in the 4th rulebook.
I still don't think it's abusive for a mystic adept to start as a pure spellslinger or adept. As the cost (5BP for magician gets you so much more... and 5BP more only gives you the option to be a weak spellcaster if you're already a full adept in magic investment).
You must have missed my point... I SAID IT WAS AN ABUSE TO GO MYSTIC ADEPT ONLY TO COUNTERSPELL... and listed it explicitly as an abuse of the type I thought the text referred to. And at that point, the GM should just go... no you can't do that. Keep it up and prepare to start burning edge.
If I'm making an adept... I like to take mystic adept... just so I have the option of picking up spellcasting or summoning later. That's 5BP lost in chargen. I don't see how that's abusive at all.
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 4 2009, 02:05 AM)
Note, I did say "pushing it... a lot." I didn't say it was entirely impossible. But even then, the self-retracting spool of monofilament is going to have a CHANCE of showing up... I still say there are easier ways.
The obvious thing to do would be (to me) is to seperate the spool and the spooler - probably by concealing the spool in some sort of cable (optical fiber would be a favorite as lots of people carry that to connect their datajacks to their commlinks) and the spooler in lipstick or your commlink or whatever.
Concealment there would be very good - optical fiber is currently very thin strands of plastic or glass that causes grievous bodily harm by just brushing against you so picking the legal ones from the illegal one would be hard, an optical cable would have dongles on either end to conceal the interlock mechanism, and finding a spooler in a commlink would be difficult.
(Intresting aside, glass fibres from fibre optics are so dangerous that left overs from terminating optical fibres in australia are called 'sharps' and have to be treated as medical waste)
Or, you could just have a completely legit spooler - in say a set of portable headphones.
QUOTE
Actually thought of another problem w/ empathic healing. It's magical healing face it... you can say it all you want.. it's a form of magical healing, it's HEALING the target w/ magical power. It says it's subject to the exact same dice penalties to the heal spell. The heal spell states magical healing will only work once... so if you heal him... you can't empathic... if you empathic, you can't heal.
That's an interesting assertion. Let's put it this way. I have 2 Nuyen; I transfer that 2 nuyen to you. Have we made money? Lost money? No, the amount of money between us has remained static. The same applies to Empathic healing - you're just shifting the location of the damage.
How about a gnome with a monofilament yo-yo? 
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 3 2009, 09:56 PM)
How about a gnome with a monofilament yo-yo?
OK, that's just SICK!!! *snorts*
But with a heavy duty ring (and a willingness to lose fingers on even a simple glitch) I have no problem mechanically with that idea. The weight is heavy enough to give a strong measure of control. Now, since you have the SMALL end in your stump-er, hand, you won't be able to pull off some of the cooler moves possible with a full handle and the small weight outside the arc.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 3 2009, 08:05 PM)
Karenshara:
You have a very odd viewpoint coming from SR2... that's so oldschool (hehe). I pretty much missed out on SR2 and 3.. But all I can say, is a lot of the things you bring up I've never seen in the 4th rulebook.
You have a very odd viewpoint coming from SR2... that's so oldschool (hehe). I pretty much missed out on SR2 and 3.. But all I can say, is a lot of the things you bring up I've never seen in the 4th rulebook.
Don't make me put you over my knee and spank you, childling. On second thought, you might enjoy that.
If you've never seen anything but SR4, then suddenly a lot more becomes clear to me. You don't have the benefit of the deep and rich trove of context and history us old timers have. SR4 hasn't had even a CHANCE to get anywhere NEAR the kind of contextual descriptive text out there that previously existed. I am hopeful (as are many of us) that the new anniversary products will succeed in beginning to rectify that. Up until now, it's been a race to get the core rulebooks out before the license changes hands (heavens forfend! I like these Catalyst people so far!) again. As for SR3, I view that the way most Trekkies view the fifth movie: "Star Trek V? No such thing". Notice just how spare the timeline is from Crash 2.0 to 2070? It's really vague, and I think that was intentional, allowing the Dev's a clean re-start on our beloved 6th worlkd. And so far, I think it's worked well, and I am willing to overlook those omissions and gentle nudges in the plot lines.
QUOTE
I still don't think it's abusive for a mystic adept to start as a pure spellslinger or adept. As the cost (5BP for magician gets you so much more... and 5BP more only gives you the option to be a weak spellcaster if you're already a full adept in magic investment).
You're entitled to your opinion. It violates the very spirit of the quality. And - again, coming from the "old school" - I don't look at it the way you do. It didn't used to be a 5 BP diference - it used to be a full priority point diference. Go look at the "priority" system in the Shadowrun Companion to see what I'm talking about. And FYI, in 1st and 2nd editions, priority A in "gear" got you 1,000,000¥. That's not a typo: a cool million nuyen. And availability wasn't the same thing back then, either. Priority E on the other hand, IIRC, was something like 250¥ - how's that cardboard box there, chummer? Go think about THAT for a while.
QUOTE
You must have missed my point... I SAID IT WAS AN ABUSE TO GO MYSTIC ADEPT ONLY TO COUNTERSPELL... and listed it explicitly as an abuse of the type I thought the text referred to. And at that point, the GM should just go... no you can't do that. Keep it up and prepare to start burning edge.
And you missed MY point: if it's an abuse, and even YOU acknowledge that, there is no way I or my GM or anybody I play with or a large fraction of the people here on DS, including the lurkers, are going to permit it at their tables. And as I mentioned above, depending on how you read the rules for taking Magical Active Skills, you may not even be ABLE to take the skill until you drop a point into spellcasting. That is certainly the way I would rule it.
QUOTE
If I'm making an adept... I like to take mystic adept... just so I have the option of picking up spellcasting or summoning later. That's 5BP lost in chargen. I don't see how that's abusive at all.
Here, I agree with you, regardless of the Crunch & Munch. I like the versitility of the type, and I am comfortable with both the limitations and the roles it allows me to adopt withing the parties/teams I join. My fall back is a mage, never a pure adept.
But tell me this: if you couldn't take Counterspelling at char gen without putting a point into it (and paying to max the stat), would you still take the MA?
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Jun 3 2009, 08:21 PM)
The obvious thing to do would be (to me) is to seperate the spool and the spooler - probably by concealing the spool in some sort of cable (optical fiber would be a favorite as lots of people carry that to connect their datajacks to their commlinks) and the spooler in lipstick or your commlink or whatever.
Concealment there would be very good - optical fiber is currently very thin strands of plastic or glass that causes grievous bodily harm by just brushing against you so picking the legal ones from the illegal one would be hard, an optical cable would have dongles on either end to conceal the interlock mechanism, and finding a spooler in a commlink would be difficult.
(Intresting aside, glass fibres from fibre optics are so dangerous that left overs from terminating optical fibres in australia are called 'sharps' and have to be treated as medical waste)
Or, you could just have a completely legit spooler - in say a set of portable headphones.
Concealment there would be very good - optical fiber is currently very thin strands of plastic or glass that causes grievous bodily harm by just brushing against you so picking the legal ones from the illegal one would be hard, an optical cable would have dongles on either end to conceal the interlock mechanism, and finding a spooler in a commlink would be difficult.
(Intresting aside, glass fibres from fibre optics are so dangerous that left overs from terminating optical fibres in australia are called 'sharps' and have to be treated as medical waste)
Or, you could just have a completely legit spooler - in say a set of portable headphones.
OK the last idea works a LOT better than the others. Here's why: OC Fiber is "medical waste" because it's so rigid and "sharp" in short lengths, it's worse than a needle! Nanofilament is dangerous for a diferent reason: it's ingerently dangerous to handle it at all! How were you planning to knot it to the weight? That is ordinarilly done in an industrial process involving nano-welding, if you follow the general process. I would say it's more akin to the broadening of OC Fiber as it approaches the termination point or as used in optical periscopes (read: mage goggles). Handling the length of it comes under the heading of a Bad Idea. You thus would want to keep at MINIMUM the spool on it's spooler (that sounds so foolish) in their casing (to keep it from unintentionally unwinding) and with the "weight" (counterweight?) attached. The weight doesn't have to be particularly heavy, say, like a large fishing bobber given the absurdly minimal weight of the line it is manipulating. That low inherent weight is the REASON you need the "weight" at the end, so you can control the swing at all. Otherwise it would be worse than trying to swing used dental floss in the wind.
That's why I like the idea of hiding it in the headphones: legit reason for the spooler and the length and the "weight could be one of the neodmyium magnets that makes the thing fire, so it could even work! If it's carbon nanofilament, it would even be conductive. Now a way to peel off the sheath in a hurry...
QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Jun 4 2009, 12:22 AM)
Don't make me put you over my knee and spank you, childling. On second thought, you might enjoy that.
If you've never seen anything but SR4, then suddenly a lot more becomes clear to me. You don't have the benefit of the deep and rich trove of context and history us old timers have. SR4 hasn't had even a CHANCE to get anywhere NEAR the kind of contextual descriptive text out there that previously existed. I am hopeful (as are many of us) that the new anniversary products will succeed in beginning to rectify that. Up until now, it's been a race to get the core rulebooks out before the license changes hands (heavens forfend! I like these Catalyst people so far!) again. As for SR3, I view that the way most Trekkies view the fifth movie: "Star Trek V? No such thing". Notice just how spare the timeline is from Crash 2.0 to 2070? It's really vague, and I think that was intentional, allowing the Dev's a clean re-start on our beloved 6th worlkd. And so far, I think it's worked well, and I am willing to overlook those omissions and gentle nudges in the plot lines.
You're entitled to your opinion. It violates the very spirit of the quality. And - again, coming from the "old school" - I don't look at it the way you do. It didn't used to be a 5 BP diference - it used to be a full priority point diference. Go look at the "priority" system in the Shadowrun Companion to see what I'm talking about. And FYI, in 1st and 2nd editions, priority A in "gear" got you 1,000,000�. That's not a typo: a cool Tmillion nuyen. And availability wasn't the same thing back then, either. Priority E on the other hand, IIRC, was something like 250� - how's that cardboard box there, chummer? Go think about THAT for a while.
And you missed MY point: if it's an abuse, and even YOU acknowledge that, there is no way I or my GM or anybody I play with or a large fraction of the people here on DS, including the lurkers, are going to permit it at their tables. And as I mentioned above, depending on how you read the rules for taking Magical Active Skills, you may not even be ABLE to take the skill until you drop a point into spellcasting. That is certainly the way I would rule it.
Here, I agree with you, regardless of the Crunch & Munch. I like the versitility of the type, and I am comfortable with both the limitations and the roles it allows me to adopt withing the parties/teams I join. My fall back is a mage, never a pure adept.
But tell me this: if you couldn't take Counterspelling at char gen without putting a point into it (and paying to max the stat), would you still take the MA
If you've never seen anything but SR4, then suddenly a lot more becomes clear to me. You don't have the benefit of the deep and rich trove of context and history us old timers have. SR4 hasn't had even a CHANCE to get anywhere NEAR the kind of contextual descriptive text out there that previously existed. I am hopeful (as are many of us) that the new anniversary products will succeed in beginning to rectify that. Up until now, it's been a race to get the core rulebooks out before the license changes hands (heavens forfend! I like these Catalyst people so far!) again. As for SR3, I view that the way most Trekkies view the fifth movie: "Star Trek V? No such thing". Notice just how spare the timeline is from Crash 2.0 to 2070? It's really vague, and I think that was intentional, allowing the Dev's a clean re-start on our beloved 6th worlkd. And so far, I think it's worked well, and I am willing to overlook those omissions and gentle nudges in the plot lines.
You're entitled to your opinion. It violates the very spirit of the quality. And - again, coming from the "old school" - I don't look at it the way you do. It didn't used to be a 5 BP diference - it used to be a full priority point diference. Go look at the "priority" system in the Shadowrun Companion to see what I'm talking about. And FYI, in 1st and 2nd editions, priority A in "gear" got you 1,000,000�. That's not a typo: a cool Tmillion nuyen. And availability wasn't the same thing back then, either. Priority E on the other hand, IIRC, was something like 250� - how's that cardboard box there, chummer? Go think about THAT for a while.
And you missed MY point: if it's an abuse, and even YOU acknowledge that, there is no way I or my GM or anybody I play with or a large fraction of the people here on DS, including the lurkers, are going to permit it at their tables. And as I mentioned above, depending on how you read the rules for taking Magical Active Skills, you may not even be ABLE to take the skill until you drop a point into spellcasting. That is certainly the way I would rule it.
Here, I agree with you, regardless of the Crunch & Munch. I like the versitility of the type, and I am comfortable with both the limitations and the roles it allows me to adopt withing the parties/teams I join. My fall back is a mage, never a pure adept.
But tell me this: if you couldn't take Counterspelling at char gen without putting a point into it (and paying to max the stat), would you still take the MA
*sigh*... you're pretty dense at times...
One. I replied to you a while ago... I started playing SR1 (as in first ed)... I missed out on 2nd and 3rd. And if you're female and attractive, yeah I might like it ;P.
Two, I'm familiar with priority chargen as I took the time to learn about it... your comments on nuyen and such are somewhat irrelevant as costs have radically changed since the old days. (a lot of things which were rediculously expensive came down a lot in price... I'd ask people more familar w/ both SR2-3 and SR4 how much the costs then balance against 250000 nuyen of gear in SR4. But that really does digress from mystic adepts. (good thread topic in it's own right; one I'd enjoy lurking in just to learn more about how things have changed). Also, I don't know anyone who uses priority chargen w/ SR4, so using that as the benchmark seems rather off base.
Three, the spirit of the quality is that a player should play w/ both halves, or at least be INTERESTED in exploring both aspects. It does not say they have to do it straight out of chargen. And provided the GM polices abuse, if a player never does... they just spent points on a feature they'll never use that could have been spent elsewhere.
Four, I listed buying counterspelling and only counterspelling as an abuse of the type the quality warns against... and the correct reaction is for the GM to just say no (GM Fiat is used a lot in qualities and such). I've NEVER done it, and I wouldn't do it as it's completely cheesy.
So your assertion that I'd take Mystic adept just to abuse it is completley off base... I'd like an apology and actually reading what I wrote for once. As this is the third time I've written it AS A SPECIFIC ABUSE EXAMPLE to be policed by the GM. I believe that the GM needs to look at the adept in perspective... is the player gaming the system by doing this? If the answer is no, then the mystic adept isn't optimal and let the player have fun with it. Failure to split the points at chargen alone, isn't abusing the mystic adept.
We both like the type for it's inherent flexibility (just I'm a bit more cautious of it's traps and limitations). We only disagree that simply coming out of chargen w/o taking both magic and power points is an abuse if I've read your posts correctlly. And I don't understand your reasoning, as it's not an advantage, but a disadvantage to do so out of chargen.
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jun 4 2009, 10:11 PM)
*sigh*... you're pretty dense at times...
One. I replied to you a while ago... I started playing SR1 (as in first ed)... I missed out on 2nd and 3rd. And if you're female and attractive, yeah I might like it ;P.
One. I replied to you a while ago... I started playing SR1 (as in first ed)... I missed out on 2nd and 3rd. And if you're female and attractive, yeah I might like it ;P.
It was a specific reference to the "perspective" thing. An attempt at levity, as it were. And I lost track of what you've said previously because the comment made it sound otherwise. I don't think I'm THAT old, and I wanted to convey that in a humorous way.
QUOTE
Two, I'm familiar with priority chargen as I took the time to learn about it... your comments on nuyen and such are somewhat irrelevant as costs have radically changed since the old days. (a lot of things which were rediculously expensive came down a lot in price... I'd ask people more familar w/ both SR2-3 and SR4 how much the costs then balance against 250000 nuyen of gear in SR4. But that really does digress from mystic adepts. (good thread topic in it's own right; one I'd enjoy lurking in just to learn more about how things have changed). Also, I don't know anyone who uses priority chargen w/ SR4, so using that as the benchmark seems rather off base.
Again, just an attempt to inject some perspective on how things have changed (assuming based on what you said that you DIDN'T go back that far). The prices haven't changed THAT drastically across the board; A Priority A sammy was a BEAST compared to the current cap (equivalent to the old Priority B).
QUOTE
Three, the spirit of the quality is that a player should play w/ both halves, or at least be INTERESTED in exploring both aspects. It does not say they have to do it straight out of chargen. And provided the GM polices abuse, if a player never does... they just spent points on a feature they'll never use that could have been spent elsewhere.
Four, I listed buying counterspelling and only counterspelling as an abuse of the type the quality warns against... and the correct reaction is for the GM to just say no (GM Fiat is used a lot in qualities and such). I've NEVER done it, and I wouldn't do it as it's completely cheesy.
So your assertion that I'd take Mystic adept just to abuse it is completley off base... I'd like an apology and actually reading what I wrote for once. As this is the third time I've written it AS A SPECIFIC ABUSE EXAMPLE to be policed by the GM. I believe that the GM needs to look at the adept in perspective... is the player gaming the system by doing this? If the answer is no, then the mystic adept isn't optimal and let the player have fun with it. Failure to split the points at chargen alone, isn't abusing the mystic adept.
Four, I listed buying counterspelling and only counterspelling as an abuse of the type the quality warns against... and the correct reaction is for the GM to just say no (GM Fiat is used a lot in qualities and such). I've NEVER done it, and I wouldn't do it as it's completely cheesy.
So your assertion that I'd take Mystic adept just to abuse it is completley off base... I'd like an apology and actually reading what I wrote for once. As this is the third time I've written it AS A SPECIFIC ABUSE EXAMPLE to be policed by the GM. I believe that the GM needs to look at the adept in perspective... is the player gaming the system by doing this? If the answer is no, then the mystic adept isn't optimal and let the player have fun with it. Failure to split the points at chargen alone, isn't abusing the mystic adept.
Back at you for the "not reading" part: I have seen your "specific abuse example" but I didn't recall you specifically disavowing it. I presume that is what you are saying explicitly now, and will proceed accordingly. What I keep pointing out, though, is that I don't think your idea is even LEGAL under the RAW, especially given the FAQ. Now if it was flat legal to take ANY of the Magical Active skills before your first point goes into the spell side, I would have left off on the point long ago. THAT is the thing I was trying to discuss. It wasn't about the "abusive" side of it.
QUOTE
We both like the type for it's inherent flexibility (just I'm a bit more cautious of it's traps and limitations). We only disagree that simply coming out of chargen w/o taking both magic and power points is an abuse if I've read your posts correctlly. And I don't understand your reasoning, as it's not an advantage, but a disadvantage to do so out of chargen.
*waggles hand back and forth*
The limitation is that of all the things out there, it's the most hostage to Karma. But your "acknowledged abusive" (and presumably expressly disavowed based on what you've said in the post I am responding to) build would actually be ADvantageous because of the "cheap" magical defense dice. Even if you only took a point or two of skill, that's two dice to add to WIL on resist, or whatever. I had to fight very hard to limit those dice to just three based on the character's background given the utility of those protective dice.
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