How is a mystic adept with a heavy sorcery focus any more "munchkin" than a magician with a heavy sorcery focus?

Not heavy: ALL. As in 6 of 6 starting points. That was what the earlier post I was referring back to had postulated. That's not an "emphasis", it's Munch. A way to get heavier spell power for less cost up front, and with the chance to add extra on the back end. I don't say you couldn't go 5/1 in favor of sorcery, I have done it, but you MUST have one point in physical abilities or you're not actually playing a mystic adept.

Sure you are. You're not a magician because you've paid 5 less BP and you've sacrificed astral perception and projection all for the possiblity that later you'll develop your adept powers. This isn't munchkin so much as it's an odd choice.

The way I understood the FAQ, the simple answer is: if it modifies a die roll directly, use the lesser magic score apropriate to the "side" in question. If it does NOT modify a die roll, use full magic rating.

Is that the consensus?

Emphasis mine.

Why not? The rules primarily treat them as an adept: "Sorcery" is an adept power that has "levels" you have to buy up through. The real limiting factor here is going to be giving up USEFUL metamagic for those power points. And let's not forget having to PAY for the actual magic rating with ever increasing Karma. The best you could hope for would be to use the rule where you can get a free spirit to help you learn "additional powers" up to 2 x Initiation Grade. But for that, I would rule that the "power point for metamagic" WAS a metamagic power, for that limit. Which means if you got to grade 6, you could have 6 extra magic points for whatever, 6 powers, and 6 power points. That's a LOT of Karma. Oh, and a final thought: remember that those "extra points" don't raise the base "adept" side magic rating split, so you might still have serious caps based on your allocations.

Just seems silly to me, that's why. Mystic Adepts miss out on the best bits of everything, why not beat them with the ugly stick a little further?

A purely sorcery focused adept is pretty dire anyway, the 5 points are worth astral projection, the metamagic access and astral sight.

I am saying that generally there is no such thing as a reasonable non-RAW solution and RAW solutions are always reasonable, if you do not seek to impose your preconceived notions on the game. If you wish to impose certain preconceptions, then anything can be idiotic.

That's possibly the funniest thing I've seen all day. Fake SINs are utterly worthless if you use strict RAW -- you have to make a SIN check every time you do anything other than huddle in your home, and even a rating 1 scanner vs a rating 6 fake will win once in 20 or so tries (which will take about 20 minutes in anything but a Barrens area). That's just one example, there are plenty more.

Thank you.


Hold on: what grade is that bioware? The same mage that successfully assensed past your Mage/Mystic Adept's masking (They DO have masking, right?) to determine they're big mojo will have NO problem spotting the 'ware the bio-sammy's sportin'. And that much 'ware, especially low-profile 'ware, is at least as threatening to security as an awakened lass who's got several levels in initiation... because you implied a LOT of 'ware, and that's not "starting character" stuff. If it's Deltaware, then your mages have enough levels in initiation to make them VERY hard to penetrate.

Some excellent ideas about how to get the MOST utility out of a mystic adept's (relatively) lower max numbers. But I just have to ask: after you find your vantage point as a tiny critter, how do you plan to haul your gear and (especially) rifle up there? Gear doesn't shapeshift with you. Or did you mean you'd just re'ce the place as a critter and make your way by mundane means?

Since you claim that the above is strict RAW, you won't mind backing it up with a quote, would you?

I would remind you of this:
You seem to have a preconceived notion of how much worth fake SINs should be.

It takes 1 hit to spot cyber, it takes 3 or more to spot bioware. A mage assensing people at a checkpoint is going to be the text book definition of guy who buys hits. He's going to be professional, so he's going to have skill 3-4 and stat 4 or so. Meaning he gets two hits and doesn't see bioware. Plus it requires even more hits to know what it is - which unlikely cyberware is not something they can realistically do, because determining if you have synaptic boosters will take a full on medical test - and you might just have dietware.

Actually buying that third hit actually requires a specialist assenser. So to put that in cut and dried terms, if no-one has any reason to suspect you are doing something illegal, they won't know you are about to do something highly illegal until you actually do it.

The other part is it's not actually that much cyberware and is certainly in reach of a starting character. Muscle toner, synaptic boosters and a reflex recorder make you pretty much super badass with a monowhip. You'll probably have 4 essence left.

2nd version. With his Orientation system and Mapsofts, after he's scouted the target out he should have no problem A: getting to his location, and B: finding a good spot to take him out. He can also post a spirit to keep an eye on him, if the target is unawakened. One good tip is to not use up your magical ability for something you can do just as well as Mundane. Give Randolph a glider from Arsenal, for example, and scrounge a point to give him some Pilot ability to use it - I'd probably drop Tracking down to two and buy Pilot: Aircraft to 2. A spirit can slap mobility on it and have him move at 3x speed.

I don't find the fact that the M.A. can't sling super spells like a full mage to be a problem. He's not meant to do what a mage does; he just has magic back up in doing what niche he has for himself: So far, I've made a Close-combat expert, a Face, a Rigger, and an Assassin, and I daresay they're all quite playable, and a match for most other builds in the same area of expertise while having unique skills that cannot be duplicated in any other method.

SR4A, P.191: Assensing Table
Information Gained

0
• None

1
• The general state of the subject’s health (healthy, injured, ill, etc.).
• The subject’s general emotional state or impression (happy, sad, angry).
• Whether the subject is mundane or Awakened.

2
• The presence and location of cyberware implants.
• The class of a magical subject (fire elemental, manipulation spell, power focus, and so on).
• If you have seen the subject’s aura before, you may recognize it, regardless of physical disguises or alterations.

3
• The presence and location of alphaware cyber-implants.
• Whether the subject’s Essence and Magic are higher, lower, or equal to your own.
• Whether the subject’s Force is higher, lower, or equal to your Magic.
• A general diagnosis for any maladies (diseases or toxins) thesubject suffers.
• Any astral signatures present on the subject.

4
• The presence and location of bioware implants and betaware cyberimplants.
• The exact Essence, Magic, and Force of the subject.
• The general cause of any astral signature (combat spell, hearth spirit,and so on).

5+
• The presence and location of deltaware implants, genetreatments and nanotech.
• An accurate diagnosis of any disease or toxins which afflict the subject.
• The fact that a subject is a technomancer.

Emphasis mine. Higher grades are harder to find, and I would argue each bioware grade is one harder as well, making delta bioware an 8. That, however, is a matter for debate.



Synaptic boosters is 32% of max starting resources, by itself. Buying a second level takes you to 64%, the minimum needed to engage multiple targets and "clean up". Toner is another 6.5%, so we're at just under 71% of maximum starting resources, and we haven't bought a lifestyle or anything else. That's probably not a starting character; That was the point I was trying to draw. It makes sense, in a way, but a PC mage is going to try to get to that first level of initiation like their life depends on it. Then if they have a decent intuition it's an opposed test between the viewer's [Assensing + Intuition] vs. the masker's [Magic (full for MA's) + Initiation Grade + Intuition]. Who do YOU think's going to win there? Especially if the bored mage's "buying" successes. If HE'S an initiate too, why is he just a security guard, and what's so slotting important they have him out front like a rent-a-cop?! So with as few as 13 earned Karma (full price for grade 1) a Mage/MA can walk in too. And they won't have a Forbidden weapon that might show up on the cyberscanner/MAD gateway.

Case in point?

1 hit: Whether the subject is mundane or Awakened.

2 hits: The presence and location of cyberware implants.

3 hits: Whether the subject’s Essence and Magic are higher, lower, or equal to your own.

4 hits: The presence and location of bioware implants and betaware cyberimplants.

so our security dude is always going to spot the awakened guy and the guy with regular grade wired reflexes, but will probably never spot our hero with synaptic boosters and muscle toner. Looks good to me.

Sure. Page 259:

"Most importantly, a SIN is now required for any form of legal travel -- including just buying a bus ticket."

Page 260:

"(whether for buying a dress or crossing a border)"

Page 210:

"the law often requires certain core pieces of data to be accessible in certain areas (SIN must be broadcast on UCAS federal property"

Page 38:

"Without one, it's very difficult to do otherwise simple things like rent an apartment, buy a car, or check into a hotel"

Page 157, Runner's Companion:

"On the downside, most Middle neighborhoods will require all metahumans to broadcast a SIN and ID at all times."
"Police drones patrol the streets, scanning everyone for their ID and SINs"

I know there are other examples in the rules where you use your SIN to buy anything and everything legal, as well -- even just a cup o noodles at the Stuffer Shack. I just can't find that quote with my cursory searches.

In other words, unless you're squatting in the Barrens and never setting foot anywhere even remotely legal, always buying from fences and fixers, etc... you're going to lose SINs very frequently if you go by strict RAW.

Unless you assume that the scanner and fake sin buy hits

Your quotes do not convey the same to me. To me, it simply means that unless you stay in a Middle neighbourhood or higher and make legal transactions, your fake SIN is not going to be subject to the constant scrutiny that will cause your fake SIN to fail.

Actually, doing that is pretty much a surefire way to lose every SIN you buy. Hits are bought at a 4 dice to 1 hit ratio, and you can't buy hits if you have fewer than 4 dice. Thus, a rating 3 scanner actually has a better chance to beat a bought-hits rating 4 fake SIN than a rating 3 rolled-hits fake SIN. Also, it's impossible to get more than a single hit with buying hits off fake SINs, since they only go to rating 6, RAW, whereas the most common roll is going to get you 2 hits on a rating 6.



You don't have to LIVE in the Middle neighborhoods, just travel into/through them. The broadcast requirement isn't just for residents. And do you seriously never, ever buy any legal products whatsoever? All your gear is secondhand or smuggled? All your food? Your entertainment? Your nightclubs are all in the slums? You never meet Johnsons in the better parts of town? You never have to hire a cab or park your car?

Yes, of course, if you travel through a Middle neighbourhood or better you'd need a SIN, fake or otherwise. Or rather, the security there would be looking for your SIN. You still do not need to actually have one though.

Some of my characters do purchase legal products, but when they want something done illegally, they make use of their fake SINs which are of course illegal.

Sorry, I thought my joke was clear when combined with the winking smiley- it means that the scanner is unable to get any hits and thus never detects are rating 4 or better fake sin unless it goes into 'active' mode and starts rolling for some reason.

This is, incidently, pretty much the handwave I use, and it isn't meant to be a serious point.



It totally is by the way, it just makes no sense not to create a street sammie without muscle toner or synaptic booster II. Fortunately for a sammie equipment is actually pretty cheap (armour, gun, whip, high lifestyle, a few odds and ends and your done).

As for the mage, I'm pretty sure you need extended masking (the second grade of initiation) so you can mask your active masking focus - because having an active masking focus is much the same as wearing a sign saying "I'm really suspicious." And yes, at that point you are freaking badass! You can just use physical mask on yourself and walk in with a fully automatic grenade launcher and it will pretty hard to spot you. You're also a second grade initate, which is pretty powerful in its own right

Unless someone makes you walk through mana static or a background count.

I would never assume that an inanimate object buys hits. They are placed carefully (by the GM) as a threat, and as such are not subject to laziness and should be allowed a chance to cause a little mayhem. And not every mage is going to buy their hits, either, but there at least you can expect human nature and boredom to help explain it.

I didn't get to 100%, so of COURSE it's a possibility, but that just tends to make you a pretty narrowly focused beastie. Or to use an older phrase: a one-trick-pony. There's not a lot of room for things like improved senses (and protections for them, like damping), 'links of diferent kinds, defensive implants (armor, resistance, etc.) or anything else, and forget affording upgraded 'ware. Also, your skills are going to be more circumscribed by the relative decrease in BP/Karma available, as will your contacts. As a sammie, I assume you will be putting near-max points into your stats. And despite the availability being within reach of a starting character, I can see a lot of GMs... discouraging starting with level 2 SA. At game start, two extra passes is very powerful. The Gunslinger Addept gives up MOST of their magic (and a lot of related BP/Karma) to get it. Even if they DO allow it, like the Gunslinger Adept you'll be very narowly focused.
On the second, why would I need EXTENDED masking? What do I need to have active when I walk through? I don't need a focus to mask my aura. I can actually just choose to look MUNDANE, so my display of Mojo, directed forst at the bored wage-mage, will come as even more of a shock. If you're using the Karma system, there is no reason (since the Karma system is optional anyway, the GM is free to decide on their own) you couldn't in theory buy level 1 at character creation.
And background counts aren't wards, they affect areas, and it would be hard to have a localized "area" of background count that would affect me enough to drop my magic and not affect the wage mage. Don't forget also, that there is a role-playing aspect to a background count: it feels different/wrong. Put a Technomancer in a RF shielded room and they might feel a little claustrophobic, and turning their own signal to 0 can make their skin crawl. To a mage, that kind of thing might feel cold, or slimy, or leave them fuzzy headed or even empty. It's not like it will be a surprise, and they will want to clear the area as soon as possible; The wage-mage isn't going to be happy hanging around in an area with a background count just so it might drop the Magic score of a masking mage enough to even the odds of them seeing through it.
And as a final thought, that monowhip only needs a single hit to show up on MAD/Cyberscanner, and it's illegal as drek. The availability to make it non-metalic takes it well out of the "starting" character's range, but even then the cyber scanner might detect the thing.

I see why you have trouble appreciating the bio sammie - thought he has caught a huge nerf in SR4A with the bumping up of the cost of active softs.

The 3rd IP pass is awesome, and thats why you take it. At character generation, you are realistically the only guy with 3 IPs all the time. That is huge - and helps you remain competive. If your GM won't let you take, he is effectively telling you to play an awakened character, and you should listen to him unless you enjoy being useless. He'll probably complain about gymnastics dodge as well. Without 3IP and massive dodge pools you are indeed worse than a spirit, and that is just one of the many, many things a mage can just do (it's like 1 stat and one skill for him).

Seriously, if those are 'off the table' options, you just cannot compete with a mage or a rigger and should give up now as the GM is a jerk. Even with those options you've never going to be better in mortal combat than a rigger or a mage, so hey.

The second thing is the other roll a bio sammie fills in the team. Skillwires are perfectly legal, and many, many, many people have them. At the orginal price that are seriously great because 12k is bargin basement pricing for a skill rank 4. Sure you cannot take perception with it - but if someone needs to know how to use demolitions, scuba dive or indeed anything else, you can just know that. SR4A nerfs the hell out of this of course and I've yet to reconsider. It may make playing a sammie no longer possible or a reasonable decision, and cyberware will be confined to cyberzombies only.

As for weapons - concealbility on the monowhip is essentially perfect (and monofiliment is not a metal). If you don't like that, use a raceor sting.

You're also over estimating the cost of everything else a bio sammie can do. I just lifted this from a franktrollman post, pre every expansion book, so it should be better now.

toturi, you're not even making me laugh anymore. What you're saying is that blind obedience to words on a page is more important that the immersive setting the rules are trying to model. I find that type of reading to be very limited, and I'd hope that you're smarter than that.

+1 IP is pretty strac as it is, given that 95% of NPCs won't have it. The mage, to do that, has to be maintaining 3+ spells, and that's 6 dice off on that gymnastics dodge pool, so it's kind of a wash.


A starting rigger can get extra passes, sure, but if my friend (the party rigger) is correct, he has to burn one of them just piloting the thing, so it's less of an issue. And I addressed the mage already.


First, remember that starting skillwires are capped at Rtg 3 for the implant itself. Now we're into pluscode and optimization. But still do-able. Unloading a 'soft is an action. Loading a new 'soft takes an action. A little rough in a fire fight. But even at 12,000Â¥ a pop, you're running out of starting cash FAST.
Second, I don't understand your comment about cyberware being for 'zombies only. What changed to make it so untennable just because the price of an active 'soft went up?
The monofilament itself isn't metalic, no. But the handle? And just being non-metalic doesn't make it immune to a cyberscanner. And do you seriously plan to "clean up" with a Raecor Sting?
Finally, I thought it was "or fraction of" for the healing, but I need to go check.

What? a mage can literally just summon a spirit and give the spirit a gun. Now he''s got a guy with longarms six, two IPs and armour 12, in addition to whatever it is that the mage does. Or he could just have a sustaining focus and improved reflexes, which doesn't particularly cost him much of anything. Or, he could get the spirit to possess him and then

you can see where this is going. The rigger can just jump into a drone. Now he's got three IP passes with a white knight MMG.

Everyone gets multiple IP passes out the door. The sammie's advantage that he gets for the 160k yens he pays is that he gets to be inconpicious while having them.

With the skillwires, you don't do it in combat, that would be silly. Basic stuff that you need to do all the time or on short notice, like shoot, spot things and dodge are actual skills that you actually have. Other stuff you can preload. As for the cost issue.. R1 in a skill costs 4 BP which also equals 20k nuyen which is almost twice what a R4 skillsoft costs. Getting rank 4 in a skill costs a cool 80k nuyen in BP.

Skillsofts are awesomely good deals.

As for the monowire thing.... Why the hell would you make a metal handle for a plastic weapon when we already make plastic handles for guns? The only problem would be the spooling mechanism, but you could just elastic.

Edit: The below is true, but also partly invalidates the comparison with a sniper rifle wielding street sammie. ADPS is, technically, better than elemental attack in terms of damage so I felt that a full comparison was justified.

Elemental Attack is more commonly used by spirits and can be very effective with it's LOS range.

"As for the cost issue.. R1 in a skill costs 4 BP which also equals 20k nuyen which is almost twice what a R4 skillsoft costs. Getting rank 4 in a skill costs a cool 80k nuyen in BP."


So you guys don't use SR4A errata where activesofts are Rating x 10k? I have no clue why a piece of software would cost that much besides for game balance, but that really doesn't matter since it's clear as day in the errata. I would guess that's why physical mask was also mentioned, since beating a threshold of 3+ is just like taking candy from a baby.

Skillsofts went up because even at 40k for a Rating 4, you're still saving BP: 8bp for the Skillsoft versus 16bp for the actual skill. Half off is not a big enough bonus for you Cthulhu?

Styles of games can change thing of course, but I find it odd that you find that any cyberware, ever, immediately makes you useless in getting into a facility. Whatever happened to sneaking into the building, or having the hacker mess with the scanner? Hell, just have the mage slap him with physical mask and he can waltz through. And of course, there are MAD-undectable weapons better than a Raecor - there's a SMG that can get through scanners. Plus, it requires 3 hits on an assensing test to determine rough level of magic; or are we to assume that every awakened person is outright banned from this party? Last I looked, it's not against the law to be awakened.

As for Unarmed Adept v. Monofilament dude - well, my guy doesn't even need a weapon to do 8p and ignore armor . Not to mention the secondary effect. Throwing Adept guy has the ability attack twice a turn and across the room.


Until someone does the obvious and geeks the mage. Then, no more spirit (or the spirit goes on a rampage upon the mage's unconscious body).

The setting also makes it pretty clear that cyberware is a viable option and it is presented as such. It's only here on Dumpshock where many try to play knife-edged gritty games that the idea that cyberware is unfeasible in a cyber-fantasy setting.

I think we're talking about getting into a party and then getting close to the CEO without the body guards being on

Band Aid:



Ahh, the walking Band-Aid. Your team can charge headlong into an machine gun and be good to go as long as this fellow is around. He can First Aid you, then Pain Relief you, then Magically heal you, then Empathic Heal you, then repeat steps 1-3 on himself. If there is (somehow) any damage left over, he can use Resist Pain to ignore its effects. In a fight, he can allow you to ignore your Stun track with Awaken - so go ahead and laugh at those poor fools shooting you with SnS ammo! For his own personal damage dealing, he's a fan of the Overcast Stunbolt, or use his super squirt.

First Aid DP: (First Aid 8 + Inevitable Spec 2 + Logic 5 + Medkit 6): 21
Heal DP: (4 Magic + 2 Power Foci + Spellcasting 4 + Inevitable Specialization 2 + Mentor Spirit 2): 15
Empathic Heal DP: (Magic 4 + Power Foci 2 + 5 Willpower): 11

Edit: Dropped Pain Relief and Improved Infiltration and Rapid Healing, changed Mage magic to 4, Adept to 1, picked up Cerebral Booster 2, Reaction Enhancers 2, dropped Demolitions, Bought Exotic weapon up to 4. Changed Agility to 4 and Willpower to 5. Dropped Stunbolt for Improved Invisibility. A minor change, overall.

Are we already back to the SIN/Scanner dilemma that has been tortutred and left for dead?

You are kidding right? Any Street Sam with serious intent can get 3 IP's without magic or rigging as a necessary part of their character at creation... Wired Reflexes 2 gives it too you for only 32000 and the truly serious can get Wired Reflexes 3, if they really want it, for 4 passes... for the low, low price of 100,000

How is that Useless?

You didn't read what I said. I said you are useless unless you get 3IPs

Wired Reflexs 3 is terrible and should never be mentioned

No, I am asking you to free your mind from the paradigm that the rules should be modeling your perceived setting. I find that your type of reading to be extremely limited and I had assumed that you'd be smarter than that. I am not advocating blind obedience, I am suggesting you change your mindset.

First off, the great majority of my characters average at 2 IP... They have never been useless, even against the 3 IP guys...
Second, why is Wired 3 Terrible?

Well, if you get the regular grade version you only have 1 essence left for other stuff, and you probably want ears and eyes which leaves you no essence for other stuff.

Now, if you buy the alpha version, you pay almost as much as synaptic boosters (which cost 20% more) for a 4 essence version compared to a 1.5 essence version from the boosters.

If you pay for beta, they are now strictly worse than the synaptic boosters.

This may have changed in SR4A, but overall they are either impractical, strictly worse, or in the 'sweet spot' of alpha grade wired reflexes, merely hohum.

If you care about such things, then sure, the Cyber has drawbacks... But WHO CARES... for 100,000 I get 4 passes and +3 to my stat... may not be the BEST expenditure of my essence, but you know what... I can start with it at character creation... and as for additional gear... Cyber Eyes and Ears cost an additional .5 Essence for the things that I generally use... so I still have .5 essence left... More than plenty for a competant street sam, and I have only used 27 BP to do so... that is a big win in the Character Creation department as far as I am concerned...

Let's try it this way:

Wired Reflexes 3 (5 essence, 100k)
Muscle Toner 4 (.8, 32k)(reduce to .4)
Platelet Factories (.2, 25k) (reduce to .1)
= +3 Ip, + 3 Reaction, +4 Agility, damage reducing ability for:
157k - the cost of Synaptic Boosters 2.

There you go... Can't argue with that...

Emphasis mine.

Two items way beyond normal starting availability. But that's what "Restricted Gear" (up to three times) is for.

So wait, we're comparing the monetary cost, but not the essence cost, conceability or availibity? Damn, well, lets just compare on the basis of essence cost then, I imagine that will create a meaningful comparison.

See, I can get this bling for less essence, it must be better.

Datajack
Bone Lacing (Ceramic)Û©
Radar Sensor 4
Suprathyroid Gland
Synthacardium 3
Trauma DamperÛ©
Synaptic Booster 3
Platelet Factories
Muscle Toner 4
Cyber eyes
Cyber Ears
Reaction Boosters 3

See, I have +3 IP and +6 Reaction. Awesome!

Actually wait no that is a stupid comparison.

Not stupid. Overboard. By the time you have that cash, Karma is less an issue.

[ Spoiler ]

Synaptic 3, Delta
Augmentation 4, Delta
Toner 4, Delta
Comlink, w/ skinlink and Sim Module, Delta
SimRig, Delta
Nanoware Retinal Adjusters 6, Delta
Nanoware Palm Print 6, Delta
Nanoware Biomonitor, Delta
Orthoskin 3, Delta
Ceramic Bone Lacing, Delta
Suprathyroid, Delta

Mystic Adept, Initiate Grade 6 - Masking, Extended Masking, Centering, +3 more
Spell Capability, 6
Adpet Powers, 8-9 points, max rating 3
Power Focus 4+

Facial Sculpt
Melanin Control
Voice Control
Sustenance
Traceless Walk
Gliding
Wall Running
Leap of the Heavens 3
Killing Hands
Critical Strike 3
Penetration 3
Multitasking
Nimble Fingers
Combat Reflexes 3
Improved Perception 3
Low light, thermal, damper-ears, damper-eyes, select sound filter, spatial recognition, balance augmentation, Improved hearing range, image magnification.

And bonuses to some skills.

I am pretty sure that all fits without grabbing a calculator, but it's not a low-Karma chatacter, or even a mid-range character.

A lot of what I have seen here on DS are either high-end prime runners, where "game balance" is becoming relative, or munchie (egad, would AS haze me over ME saying that!) starting characters that favor power over style or playability. If you bring something godsawful to the table, and chortle about how it's RAW, the GM won't have any choice but to roll out the big guns to deal with your group, which will be lethal for the "softie" support types. I know I am painting with a broad brush, but even a 500 bp character isn't quite as abusive as some of what I have seen here. Of course, I am also assuming the 500 bp character was doing silly things like buying knowledges and languages, non-combat active skills and varried contacts. Many people have noted their groups have like 35 or 60 karma under their belts, and I would really love to see what some of those developing 'runners look like. I KNOW how often it comes back to the guns, but I have been on a lot of good runs, too; Part of successful 'running is being able to recover the mistakes. Creativity on the fly should be rewarded, not burried under an avalanche of automatic gunfire. We're playing with a Spider mage, and I can tell you, he's frightening for the way he pulls things out of his ... backside. The number of times it's left the GM slack jawed and speechless is hysterical. I think my favorite so far was the "Trid Phantasm to create big holographic arrows pointing out the badguys I can see in the crowd for security." That was so much chaos, we walked right in and completed the mission... while I waited on a roof top with my sniper rifle IN CASE it came to guns and running.

On Demolitions:
I can't think of a worse skill to stuff into skillwires than demolitions... can you think of another skill you'd REALLY want to spend edge on! Normally demo chars also boast a high edge in addition to not putting the skill into wires. (this is a case, i'd much rather have 1-2 ranks in the skill plus a potential specialization than buy a rating 4 software).

Karenshara:
No putting all 5 out of 5 points into spellcasting isn't not exploring the MA's nature... especially if the player takes adept powers as he develops. Such a char is pretty gimped compared to a straight magician w/o astral perception already. And to get astral perception he has to sacrifice a point of magic. The problem comes down to 'astral scrubbing' and counterspelling... any spells he casts and sustains can be dispelled by an astral mage pretty much at will. Any spells he casts will leave astral signatures which will point right back at him and lead to a fairly short life as a shadow mage.

That line in there, is mostly to prevent this abuse. I'm playing a straight adept... but I buy MA just so I can learn counterspelling... nothing else, just counterspelling (rather than buying the adept power of magic resistance w/ PP). That is abuse to me.

A similar weaker case, where instead of killing hands for spirits... you could use the attack of will (street magic) as a face type adept and replace it w/ the skill banishing.




Way to go you FINALLY made a semi-usefull MA... after I pointed out the char concept as one of the few usefull ones how many pages ago?! After specifically pointing out that a MA w/ a good mentor and specialization in a single line of spells like health can be effective.

Though to critique... this is a char who really wants astral perception, most of the adept healing abilities are junk. Astral perception also has medical uses (think of it as a magical CAT scan ability) in assisting diagnosing things in the field. Plus EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR ADEPTS HAS LACKED THE ABILITY TO WIPE OUT HIS ASTRAL SIGNATURES!!! despite having a spellcasting focus... they leave spellcasting fingerprints all over the place. Those will get you tracked down and eliminated. Using stunbolt in combat will need to be wiped, in fact w/ your low magic you're really better off w/ a gun than an attack spell outside your specialty. The primary reason to have a direct combat spell is to defend yourself against spirits and astral mages.

Read the astral section of the book. W/O extended masking you stand out like a sore thumb on the astral already. Now you're adding active spells to make your brightly glowing aura glow even brighter. And don't forget, your increase reflexes spell is only one counter spell from being wiped out. Especially by a purely astral projecting mage you can do nothing about.


Your magic is way too high... 5/5 is enough... ditch the worthless adept heals. That's why you have the heal spell right. Actually read Pain relief... 5minute per box healed... you're almost better just taking a nap under medical supervision.

empathic healing.. pointless only transfers physical.. and you can only apply magical healing once per set of wounds (just like you can only apply first aid once, and only before magical healing).

You also quickly illustrate one of the problems mystic adepts suffer. In order to bring their magic up to usable... they really need to rely heavily on focus crutches. (power focus). So much so that a minor background count hurts you a bit. (in fact, a strong case can be made for going for a better power focus using restricted gear and dropping magic from 6->5). And to really be combat worthy, you'd want a sustaining focus for your increase reflexes.


In the end, if you're out just to heal like this... what do you gain by going MA over magician. A logic tradition mage, would have a much more potent spellcasting pool (especially w/ the power focus). All for 3 less dice on the first aid check, and a bunch of magical healings you can't use more than one of anyhow. The key to making this adept work and differentiate it from the straight mage is to give it some character and branch it out a little more into other adept powers as fitting.

Actually that line up only costs 1/2 a mil which is considerably less than just the delta synaptic boosters

Really though you can make a perfectly well rounded sammie built around the equipment I linked before, it's hardly munchkinitis. The guy has B&E capability, is extremely stealth capability, perception, and can perform covert assassinations at close and long range. Weakest area is, as always, legwork - but you've going to use him for survillance, shadowing etc.

If not the setting, then what should they be modeled upon? Or are you suggesting that the rules come first and that the setting should thus incorporate every facet of the rules - including wildly silly corner cases?

BTW, your weak attempts to reverse my statements into your arguments with are getting pretty lame - you're sounding like the jackass mentor from Mystery Men. If you have something to say, try being a bit more straightforward with less game-playing.

falconer: astral projecting mage is on the astral plane. in all probability, the spells these mystic adepts are sustaining will be on the physical plane. particularly considering the mystic adepts can't even get to the astral plane in order to have a spell cast on them there, if for some bizarre reason they wanted to (well... there's always deepweed i guess, but still...)

so yeah, the magician will come along and... watch. can't dispel the sustained spells, because there's a planar barrier between the magician and the mystic adept.

also, the healing adept has a skill of 7(10) which means up to 10 boxes can be healed using first aid. a regular magician can, at best, heal 7 (assuming a skill of 7, which i doubt you'll see on a magician).

also, the empathic healing is to turn one set of wounds into 2. it doesn't heal, and arguably wouldn't be subject to a cap on magic healing, but let's pretend it is: you use first aid on the victim, transfer, use first aid on yourself, use magic healing on yourself. 2 first aid rolls and a heal spell is clearly better than 1 first aid roll and a heal spell.