So The Bug's got a Name (Hum) ?

HeyaHeyaHeya
Medicineman

You know, as much as I love my melee doods, and I do love 'em(my main character has decent firearms, at group 3, but it's backup), I have to say I do feel kinda wrong doing more damage than the guy with the HMG+. IMO, yeah. Make melee own, no problems, but the biggest guns SHOULD really kick tons of ass and have their place as the ''that's it guys, time to bring out the biggest and baddest.''

Trolls with dikoted weapons and maxed strength are broken. That does not make dikote broken in all circumstances. Capping melee damage or slowing its progression (start higher, use SR4's str/2?) might help. I've mostly just played without such elite bruiser trolls and things have worked out.

On the other hand, consider a troll with 16 strength. That's nearly three times as much as the strongest unaugmented starting human. He probably shouldn't be able to tear through tanks, but he should be able to kill in a single blow with ease.

Only if he gets enough Successes to actually hit.
With every other race usually having a higher Combat Pool, that's hard enough.
Especially, if the other side is using guns, big guns and bigger guns against you.
An STR16 Troll could not even knock someone clean out in most Cases.
16 Light Stun Damage . . whoo . . i have to hit the Body 1 Elf 10 Times to knock him out.
16M Stun is slightly better. There is no Way to get 16S Stun Damage. Only with full auto Fire and Gel-Rounds.
Or staging up with successes, yes. But getting those Successes is hard enough.
KILLING is MUCH EASIER than Stunning. Which is, stunningly enough, more or less a first for Shadowrun O.o

Which shouldn't be a problem in case of a (heavily) melee oriented character against an opponent with average or even low melee capacities ... Particularly as long as the opponent cannot counter the range advantage.



~erm~ Last time I checked the base damage for an unarmed STR 16 Troll would already be 16M Stun in SR3. So no, a Body 1 Elf would not require 10 blows even if the troll always only gets one net success (as defender) or a draw (as attacker) in the melee tests ... which is strikly speaking "highly unlikely" for a melee oriented character; especially since after "first blood" the opposed test in melee further benefits the melee oriented character due to the rising TN for his opponent.
16S Stun already comes into play at mere 2 net successes ... 16 D Stun requires 4 net successes on the opposing melee test in SR3 .. which is a quite common occurance at least in my experience. In practice I have never seen any non-equally skilled opponent last more than 2, max 3 blows of a melee troll unless the opponent was wearing enourmous amounts of armour and had cybernetically, magically or via bioware enhanced body stats that equalled a troll. The average goon against a melee troll drops on punch number 2 - usually going straight into the physical monitor.

Nope, without Bone-Lace or something ofd that kind, unarmed Damage is STR Light Stun.
Get your Strength up to 100, if you don't have anything in there that gives you M or more Damage Level, you need to hit someone at least 10 times with one net success to knock them out.
Or, rather, get them from stun into physical Damage. and it's NET SUCCESSES. Not mere Successes. Yes, if the Troll does manage to get 6 Successes, he stages up to 16D Stun.
But if the other Guy gets 5 successes on his own test, or on his dodge, he does 16 light stun minus impact armor.

Get your character brass knuckles... who can afford bone lacing anyway?

Do yourself a favour and take a look at pages 122 SR3 (either english or german) or p. 275 (again both english and german) or p. 115 Cannon Companion / p. 145 Arsenal 2060 and read it up: unarmed melee damage in SR3 is (STR) M Stun



Wrong again, since the melee rules do stage damage in a different way than ranged:

The damage is determined after the comparison of successes in the opposed skill test (dodge only becomes availibe on full defense and pretty much only makes more combat pool availible in case of a low skilled opponent at the cost of his own damage potential) => In this 6 vs. 5 success scenario the troll would cause 16 M Stun against which the Elf would have the resist with Body + whatever remains of his combat pool (not much if he really went for full defense and still only got a total five successes as non-melee oriented character) against a TN of 16 minus worn impact armor. Unless we're talking improbabilities our Elf will take that M Damage on the first hit ... and with the additional +2 modifier for the next melee test, he surely won't get another 6 vs. 5 situation unless dice really fall in his favour and heavily against the melee troll. The second hit is most likely a hit for 16 D Stun ...

Hrm . . see? this is what happens if you get a job and don't get to play for a year or more <.<

Probably just good advice in the making here:

If you're going to make a strident assertion, it's not a bad idea to actually check your facts before shoving your foot firmly into your oral cavity.






-karma

as opposed to all the other rules? or the idea of trolls in 21st century Boise? Or Native americans having neough population to be able to occupy half of North America north of the Rio Grande?

I think we actually played it like that most of the time . .
This means my trolls would probably have been a lot more destructive O.o

Maybe not, but a 16 strength troll gets 15M + 7S shock with a shock glove gives you some extra bang. Or he can swing a telescoping staff for 18M with reach 3.

Of course real runners use more dakka. Gel round short bursts bursts out of an Enfield AS-7 start at 11D before staging. Or pick up a pricier Franchi SPAS-22 for 13D bursts. Sure, you'll need to slap a really big gas vent and some other mods on shotguns to make them accurate, but then you have a seriously (non)lethal weapon on your hands.

But why stop with gel rounds? Capsule rounds with a drug and possible DMSO will work wonders! Depending on your budget, you could go with the exceptionally expensive 10D gamma scopalamine + DMSO, the slightly more reasonable Narcoject + DMSO for 6D, or the cost-efficient Neuro-stun series for 6S-8S stun.

Conclusion: Franch SPAS-22 with a custom grip and a gas vent IV (so recoilless) packing gamma scopalamine. You pay pay several thousand nuyen for the gun and mods, and you're firing 180 nuyen in chemicals per neurop-stun X burst. You're also doing 13D vs. impact plus 8S vs. half impact. You can't kill your target, but it would take a miracle for a hit not to knock anything short of a piasma out cold.

Doing the same with gamma scopalamine does 13D plus 10D, and you're very likely to murder your foes with nonlethal methods.

But at least you can't dikote bullets or toxins!

After just having been shown how wrong i was with most of the close combat stuff(i am deeply ahsamed about that right now <.<) i will ask instead of outright saying it:"Doesn't the stun Glove give you a straigh 7S Stun damage no matter how strong you are?"
Yeah, Full Auto with Gel Rounds can actually kill people. One occassion, both me and my buddy had Assault Rifles loaded with Gel Rounds. Set on Full auto. Both hit the same intended Target. First full long burst makes his stun fill up completely, the second made his physical fill up completely due to overflow . .
Wanna really make sure something does Fall? STR16, Hand blade does STR+3 light, with Dikote it does STR+4M Damage. Coat with Gamma Scopolamine. 20M Damage and then there comes 10D Stun resisted only with natural Body without any kind of Armor. Or Ranger X-Bow with Coated Arrow-Tips. 20M Damage and 10D stun again.

You can't put gas-vents on a shotgun. Use a customized grip, foregrip and retractable stock instead and you're fine for recoil compensation.

Then again, real runners take the +2 recoil and ditch the customized grip. You get a -1tn for the smartlink so you're shooting at +1 tn (excl other modifiers). That's not to bad as long as you remain within short range.

Just up Strength. Add under Barrel weight. Grip +1, Stock+1, Under Barrel weight+1. 3 Points of Recoil Compensation. +Recoil Compensation from Strength.
Oh, and you CAN d1k0t3 Bullets. But they only get the +1 in Power, not the +1 in Damage.

Nah, better to take aim for the extra -1 tn. Burst fire is a simple action anyway.

They used to have this shadowtalk with dikoted flechettes...now wouldn't that make or break your day?

Recoil compensation from strength is an optional rule from the Canon Companion. I always found it a bit dodgy for "+2 for uncompensated recoil) since the recoil is actually not-compensated. But, yes, its an extra +1 recoil compensation (but I would rule it after the double recoil for shotguns/heavy weapons).

Why?

May I hazard to suggest that you might possibly be playing the wrong game?

If he start another round of "But in my game" and "military is teh best and teh awesome because it's military *fapfap*" you are to blame, Dr Funfrock.

Why?

Flavour of course, that and customized grips come back to haunt you.

Most shock weapons stage normally. The shock glove is explicitly not called out as one of these; the rules and intent aren't clear, and I don't know of any errata that help. I don't know of any cases in which you stage two types of damage and the (Str - 1)M makes more sense to stage as a normal attack, but it's probably not particularly broken to stage the 7S instead. Both would be a problem.


You can't put any sound suppression on a shotgun (except in Cannon Companion you can), but where is the vent prohibition?

Smartlink is -2 if you're using the cyberware version rather than goggles or HUD.

A customized grip probably isn't any more incriminating than owning the gun. You don't want to legally possess it; if anyone traces it back to you, you have bigger problems than the grip.

You can't put a retractable stock on a shotgun. (Well, you probably can, but since the shotgun assumes a stock you don't get RC for it, just a chance to increase concealment.) You want shock pads instead to make your stock more compensatory.

Next thought: a bullpup shotgun with barrel reduction has a concealability of 7 (and roughly heavy pistol ranges). If you can make the stock retractable that could conceivably be another 1 (I wouldn't allow it, though!). That puts your shotgun in super-light pistol concealability range, which also makes it eligible for quick-draw from a concealed holster for another +2, and of course the whole mess belongs under a coat. Conclusions: never carry a pistol when a modified shotgun will do. (The exception, of course, is when you need even more concealment, in which case you should be toting a completely ceramic stealth pistol.) Concealability doesn't add up right. Everything is better with shotguns. Can you get away with calling such a miniatured slug-thrower a minigun?

- The SPAS has a retractable stock.
- The -1 tn for smartlink is for shot/flechette shots
- Oh my, you're right. They can mount gas-vents! (although its only feasible on burst fire shotguns)

Over here, in germany, we actually have a tool that incorporates Canon Companions Weapon Construction Rules.
Believe me, you don't want to know what i can do with that ^^
Ceramic Components, Clip, hightened Power-Niveau, increased concealability, SA/BF Mode, 10S/13D damage
6/8 Concealability, 3 Points of built in Recoil Compensation. Weights in at 8,5kilo and costs 3365 Nuyen.
If you can live with 9S/12D you can up the Concealability to 8/10 by making it a short barreled Weapon.
And that is WITHOUT Adding in Things like Concealable Holster and Long Coat.

I stopped following SR canon around Bug City.

Do what they did with LA going down under.
Have it happen on TV. Seattle is a good ways off.

I'm not sure what flavor you're going for by leaving off some basic recoil-dampening gear, or how it is you think customized grips come back to haunt you any more than anything else does. The only way I can think of is if "they" get ahold of your weapon and somehow have your...what...palm specifications or something, on file? And if that's the case, the odds are pretty good you left behind some DNA elsewhere on the weapon anyways just from handling it, or bled all over the place in the process of losing it/leaving it behind, yadda yadda yadda.

I'll keep my customized grips, thanks. If that means I'm not a "real runner" in your eyes, I can live with that while blasting you to pieces with my more accurate shotgun.

- So it does. Huh. Okay, so if you start by modding a SPAS you can arguably get up to concealability 9 with the stock folded.
- I suppose one could fire shot from a shotgun, but if you really need to do 13D damage you probably want to be using slugs as well.
- Non-burst shotguns have such trivial recoil that you wouldn't want a vent.

Stahseele: I salute your gun construction, but bullpup configuration is strictly better than improved concealability (you get 1 recoil compensation at less cost). And I'm not sure how you you got concealment up to 6 without shortening the barrel anyway. What I came up with along your lines is a bit different.

Bullpup, Ceramic (1), Burst-Fire, Heavy Barrel, Clip, Barrel Reduction, Improved FCU (4), Improved Power (2), Weight Decrease (6), an integral smartgun II, a personal grip, and shock pads. Also there's really no reason not to increase the clip size from a measly 10 to a more robust 50. (Again, clips that large might come with concealment penalties. Ask your GM before modding!)

5.15 kilos, a cost of 4640 nuyen, a concealability of 6 (8 versus MAD detectors), and 4 RC for your 10S, burst-fire capable, smarlinked weapon, possibly with 50 rounds and therefore enough ammo to keep firing for 16 IPs, or around 14 seconds. The barrel is also unused, so you can go ahead and add a sound suppressor in an entirely futile attempt to muffle a shotgun firing bursts.

Not satisfied? The rules on page 83 forbid folding stocks, but if you cheat and steal the SPAS rules you can sneak in another point of RC and argue for another point of concealment (page 34 says "SMG-sized or smaller" weapons can have stocks, and by concealment this thing is tiny now). An underbarrel weight adds one more RC and can be detached, so if you don't mind having to assemble your gun a bit you can pocket the weight and keep your gun hidden. Or you can come up with the 6 strength a forgiving GM will accept for 1 RC or the 11 strength a harsher GM who compensates with strength after shotgun recoil doubling. Or you can whine because your GM doesn't use that unnecessary extra recoil solution.

This gun lies somewhere between broken and barrels (pun intended) of fun. I am also endlessly amused by the concept of the stealth automatic shotgun.

Critias, your characters are as real runners as mine .

Now lets get back from shotgun rules to Dikote. This thread is derailing (and yes the SPAS is just to good a bang for buck gun).

The shot and or flechette rounds are must in case you run into hordes of say.... devil rats.

Nonsense. In cases of devil rat hordes what you really need is a gun that sprays pure dikote, although I suppose dikoted shot will do in a pinch. It's like shooting pure win at enemies. Bonus points if you get your gun a custom dikote finish.

Dikote your friends! Dikote your family! Dikote your NERPS!

Dikote your Allies Weapon-Form so you can propperly have sex with him!
OK, one good thing about there not being Dikote in SR4: Cyber Dong and Cyber Tits. Anyone wanna take a guess what people would be doing?

Nah, dikote isn't shiny enough for that. It's all about the platinum encrusted with actual diamonds, not just some spray on diamond coating.

I mean if you're gonna replace your thing, it might as well be bling...

But then you'd have to fight dikoted devil rats.

actually I would miss dikote if I went over to 4th ed. I know runners would all have it BUT not everyone could afford it as street meat and the like wouldn't and maybe corper's wouldn't get it.
corper/poser- "Look buddy, I got a dikoted butter knife."
runner "Good for you chummer"

Dikote should be applied to everything in the home and on the person of the tacky rich. It's pricey, it's diamond, and it's actually not doing much good for most people most of the time. Dikoted butter knife? Try dikoted matching sets of silverware, dishes, and possibly tables and chairs. And sunglasses. And sportscars.

Dikote should be applied judiciously to runners' equipment. It's pricey, it's diamond, but it can be the difference between getting through the door in two seconds or ten, or having the bullet leave a bruise or an exit wound, when your life is on the line. You can't afford to coat everything, but you can't afford not to coat the stuff that will be saving your hoop. It's mandatory because you know what you're doing and have a healthy appreciation for staying alive.

Which is why, in SR4, I'm fine with them just saying "everything, ever, is dikoted." The ones who are dikote crazy can be all tingly in the pants because they've got so much dikoted stuff, and the rest of us can just ignore it. Everyone wins.

That's why Ihtink it should still be an otion. that way you can judge a person by how they use it. I mean the guy with a dikoted belt on his belt, worrysome, the yahoo with the dikoted dinner set, it really a dweeb

I just assumed all ammunition had Dikote in it. Even stun ammo and Stick-n-Shock.

I mean really, why wouldn't you?

- J.

Someone somewhere thought about dikoteing diamond jewelry so it does more damage when thrown with missle mastery...

Then he sighed in relief remembering it's gone.

Sup dawg, I heard you liked dikote so I put dikote on your dikote so you can cut while you're cutting.

It had to happen.