So I am in the process of creating a character (well actually two twins...) but anyways the point is I was looking through the guns and frankly I am starting to wonder why...why would anyone use a shotgun? aside from the flavour the weapons pales in comparison to the sniper rifle, sure it has the ability to fire a spread but once you get going with spread you can say goodbye to your damage and frankly one dead guard and two fine guards is better than three bruised guards.

Anyways what I'm hoping for is some tips on making highly effective gun wielders. The character will be using ware, and will have a high edge. (The characters are loosely based on the boondock saints for anyone who has seen it.) Right now my plan was to use longarms but if someone can convince me of a better weapon group that would be fine.

Essentially, what are the strong points of guns? what are the best tactics when using them? what is the best weapon/weapon group (in your opinion)? and why?

Becouse sniper rifles are really impractical to use in close quater combat( rules don't say anythink about this, but i think most GM:s will)
And shotguns are much cheaper then sniper rifles and if you get yourself one that is capable of burstfire the shotgun does pretty much same damage as sniper rifle or more.

The damage may be the dame but if the enemy is wearing more than a t-shirt and jeans his armor will be pumped way up.

On the realism note I fully agree. Sniper rifles have to be properly calibrated, put in position, etc.

But why shotguns and not say...an assault rifle, I mean sure you get the +1 DV but at the cost of a much higher clip and the ability to burst fire and auto fire (this is not including the Auto-Assault 16 or the Mossberg because the auto assault is to rare to start with and the mossberg's clip is impractically small for a FA weapons.

By the way I'm just questioning this because I love the flavor of the shotgun but I don't want to make a character who has a neat flavor but can do squat in combat

Conveniently, SR4A does address this, adding a chance that you'll screw up your sniper rifle if you try to use it as a battle rifle. Admittedly, the MA-2100 is exempt from part of this, and I'd imagine the next Arsenal errata will also extend this exemption to the Desert Strike, but that's another story.

By the way, Automatics is the superior skill within the Firearms group. A machine pistol loaded with Stick'n'Shock or capsule rounds makes a very effective sidearm, an assault rifle with a silencer and an extended barrel makes a passable sniper rifle replacement, and an assault rifle with a barrel reduction makes a brutal close quarters weapon.

But if you have your heart set on a shotgun, remember one thing. Solid slugs are your friend, preferably explosive or EX-explosive slugs.

There also aren't many Sniper Rifles with availability 3 or 4, and can be bought for about five hundred nuyen. There are Sport Rifles that tote similar availability and price, but they're pretty exclusively single shot. Shotguns, and ammo for them, are everywhere, and are cheap and generic enough to be near-disposable. There's also the concealability issue to consider (though most folks will often take Automatics or Pistols for a sidearm, Shotguns offer you an option or two for smaller stuff, too).

Different guns for different folks, of course. What fits your character's background, budget, and the feel of the game should matter to you more than a +1 here or a -1 there.

I think if you are using a 1,6 meter long and 15 kilogramm heavy sniperrifle while inddorfighting you are doing something very very wrong (one of the rifles states that it will be bent afterwards with a modifier, the ranger Arms SM-4) Also shotguns can use slugs (which does not grant more armor, it is even more common than using shot) and a automatic shotgun easily outperforms an assaultrifle if you are near enough (all the time, in urban warfare)

My experience is in 3rd edition... but much of it translates to 4th so here is my opinion:

Hold-outs - hm hm... well if you really need it you can place them all over your body and no one will ever know. work great with a hidden arm slide.
Light pistols: You don't want them to know that you are packing, but still have a decent amount of pain. (they got better now in SR4 in my opinion)
Heavy Pistols: Now these are meant to really hurt. My characters often dual wield these in 3rd... they are exact, don't use that much ammo (and have enough capacity) and shred through normal armor easily.
Sub-Machine guns and auto pistols: I don't really like these to much, but if you have one with fullauto mode you can use one of them in each hand to lay down surpressing fire double the duration without reloading than with an assault rifle. Normaly they aren't that good with recoildampaning, so they are not as exact... Also they of course pack a great punch against slightly better armored foes.
Assault rifles: Now these you need if you WANT to start a war. If you expect heavily armored foes, you need full-auto. They allow for bursts, supressing fire, have good ammo, great range... but you will never be able to walk around with one under normal conditions. Very hard to get them unnoticed into buildings, or secure areas.
Assault cannon: If you need these... you either have a problem, or you are playing an AWESOME campaign *g*
Sniperrifle: Yay, support fire... don't you just love it, killing people and they can't do anything about it? Also great to bring insanely heavy armored people to their knees.
Special weapons: Well, everything that squirts dmso+Neurostun/Poison/anything, Bows, throwing weapons, Taseres and such normaly are an attempt to circumvent the armor of guys. Going against impact armor, often even halving it... used to get someone quickly down, but cost more per shot (and have very limited ammo and other drawback)
Also: Grenades=win.
If you are rich enough and/or good enough to hit your targets without wasting to much ammo: APDS, Ex-Ex or other special ammo is now something for you *g*

I normaly fall back to these combat styles: Very high skill, with silenced small pistols and hold outs (infiltrator), Chem weapons (Infiltrator), high-reflex and many IP's + ambidextrous double Heavy Pistols or automatic sub-machineguns for tearing up shit (bars, gangs, small security units). Assault rifles, grenade launchers and Autoshotguns = Urban warfare (You are doing something wrong, but it may happen so prepare). Of course having a character who is only prepared for one of these, and has no special options will be... boned. Only taking longarms seems a bad idea for me, if you are somewhere else than in Jungle or desert, killing soldiers and mercs. Pistols you can carry around and have proper permits for and no one will bother you.

I usualy chose weapons from what I think is cool, and what fits the character. Shotguns are cool, and I can use them to intimidate people. Nothing says talk like a guy shoving a shotgun in your crotch.

Burst Capable Shotguns.
For everything else, there's a silenced SMG that shoots Gel/Stick'n'Shock or something else that will most likely take someone down nice and quiet fast.

The Franchi SPAS-22 is a personal favorite. The buckshot rules are kind of screwy (expensive AND ineffective! yay...). I prefer to go with EX-Explosive or Gel rounds.

The Ruger 100 and Remington sport rifles are nice, even straight out of the box. Easily modded up to a Mare's Leg a la Zoe from Firefly/Serenity.

For a concealable less-than-lethal weapon, I think you've have a hard time beating the Fichetti Security 600 with Internal Smartlink, Fully Ceramic Parts, Shortened Barrel, Internal Silencer, and Stick-N-Shock ammo. Huge ammo capacity, very concealable, very good at defeating armor. (It'll only set you back several thousand nuyen...)

For a heavy pistol, I like the Ruger Super Warhawk with Firing Selection Mod (SA), Personalized Grips, Increased Cylinder, Quick Draw Holster, and either APDS or EX-Explosive. Heck, even Gel rounds are halfway decent in this beast. Custom Look is optional, but recommended.

In short, I take some weapons for effectiveness, some for style. Most are a mix of both.

-paws

Looking at the Anniversary edition, the damage code for the Ares Slivergun is 8p(f) but the armor modification is only +2.
The Remington 990 also has the same issue: 9p(f), +2

The Remington Roomsweeper has the Flechette damage code listed as 7p(f) and armor mod of +5.
The Raecor Sting, Mossburg Shotgun and Frag grenade and Frag rocket also have the proper armor modification listed.

So are those two weapons special? The slivergun in particular would be a pretty nasty handgun.

The updated version of the SR4A PDF sorted that typo and boosted them back to the +5 AP.

Almost forgot my other favorite. You can't go wrong with a crate of Ares Predator IVs that you use once, then drop in a barrel of thermite.

My funest weapon so far was a punch dagger with a 2 shot 7P pistol in it. I plan was that on the rune while moving to engage in melee you cold fire of the two SA shots. Another go one is the how low you can get the concelability on a hold out if you don't need much range. I think I had it under -8 while a 5 round clip and a 15m range aint the best form my stealth char it worked perfectly for silent take downs.

The Slivergun is still a good contender for your pistol needs - with a narrow burst, you're up to 10p. Do a called shot to bypass armor: "I shoot him in the face" and your opponent's visage becomes a spray of goo. Oh, and it comes with 30(!) bullets per clip.

Ah the good old ghoul slayer. In a game based around working as pest control that was the sidearm of choice a long with a shotgun.

If you want pure Useability?
Go SMG/Assault-Rifle only.
One for Short Range Bursts, the other for long Range.
For style, you just can't beat a good old Pump Action Shortgun.
The Ka-CHACK should induce instant resolve test in anybody hearing that behind his head.
And the Burst/Fully automatic Shortguns should come directly after the nice and soothing whirrr or a Minigun ^^

the Auto-Assulte modded with two 40 round drums song slug one shot is lethal. 6 turns of suppressive fire and the ability to red mist hoards. Or use SA and just keep shooting.

Don't think of the shot rules as a reason not to use shotguns. Against most opponents you don't want shot, you want slugs. Then you're just using a shorter-range, non-burst, heavy-hitting rifle. Reduce the barrel and you can even conceal it, although you also lose even more range. It has its advantages and disadvantages.

If you need crowd control, though, or end up fighting packs of animals, or the aforementioned ghouls, shot is your friend. It's an option. Carry around some shot for when you need it and otherwise stick with treating your shotgun as a good ol' slug thrower.

Do that with Flechette and you can fill whole football fields with flying death.

And if your demo-expert has lost his explosives (or is a red splat on the wall a couple of rooms back), you can use it as a skeleton-key.

A firearm is a tool.

Do you use a crescent wrench to pound a nail? Of course not.

The right tool for the job.

Sniper rifles are great for those occasions where you need to be a long way out from the target and need to be able to take out said target with a single shot.

A shotgun is excellent for close in work, slugs/flechettes pick your flavor.

You need to be quiet though? Well a heavy pistol with a silencer is going to be better than a shotgun.

Assault rifles are pretty good intermediate weapons. They have decent range (not great but good) and can handle close up work nicely. Add a grenade launcher and you can handle a wide variety of targets.

SMG's are better for close work, where you want more punch than a pistol but need to have something that is more concealable than a shotgun.

Need to take down a target but keep them alive? Well, a taser or a paintball gun w/ DMSO and tranq are good routes. You could even use a slap patch.

Be flexible, look at the situation, think of contingencies.

What about Rope? Charlie bronson always has rope, and they always end up using it.

Shotguns are bad. The best weapon group depends on the role, an how you think the rules for exotic weapon skill is supposed to work. I'm not sure if they've clarified trhis in SR4A, but at least in the orginal book the description how exotic weapon skills are supposed to work is inconsistent with every single example in the book.

If its you need 1 exotic weapon skill for every unique weapon, it blows

If exotic melee: Ranged gives you every exotic ranged weapon, it is good

A) For street sammie you want long arms, exotic melee weapons (monowhip) and potentially squirt guns (see above)

B) For anyone who's main job isn't killing people with guns, Automatics is just better. Pistols with spec: Semi-auto is a distant second.

Shotguns have more Range and Damage than heavy Pistols and more Options than Rifles.
If you plan on using the Shotgun for Stuff other People would use Heavy Pistols for, you are probably getting more Bang for your Buck ^^

The thing you want to do with pistols is 'carry it in a concealed manner' which is hard with shotguns.

Depends. Shorter Barrel, folding stock . . being a huge tall metahuman also helps a bit ^^
Or at least, it should <.<
First you go:"Whoa . . a Troll . . Tall fella o.O"
Then you go:"And god damn is he packing heat. That's hotta be the biggest Pistol i ever saw"
After that:"What kind of Pistol IS that anyway? Does that thing have TWO Barrels?"
Later:"Holy shit! That's a frigging SHORTGUN he's slinging around like other people would handle a Predator?"

We've got some house rules for shotguns that go back to SR1 when we decided that a) shot ammo is cheap and b) shot is bad for rifling.

1. Flechette ammo, the expensive stuff, is comprised of specially shaped needle-like darts that interlock for firing and interact with rifled barrels like standard solid rounds. Flechette normally stays in close proximity and doesn't spread. (except as noted below)

2. shot rounds are round balls of metal that are as cheap as standard ammo but they disperse immediately upon fired, destroying rifled barrels and creating a spread pattern.

3. Smooth bore shotguns (or a rifled barrel shotgun that is then used with shot) has 75% range for APDS and smartlinks actually impose a -2 penalty unless they are specifically calibrated for APDS. Smartlinks can only have one calibration so apply that penalty to shot if APDS calibrated. (That narrow penetrator is pretty erratic without that spin stabilization while slugs rely on inertia to maintain a straight line without spin.)

4. Rifled shotguns can use expensive flechette ammo and get the same spread pattern as shot without destroying the rifling. Smartlink calibration is consistent across all non-shot rounds.

Snpier rifles,- large clunky and impractical to move quickly. great take down when you can pick the shot but otherwise lousy.
Shot gun, in close and light. good take down damage at close range, easy to move, cheap.

I guess I should have added the proviso...that I was thinking in terms of SR3. I guess I missed the SR4...shotguns are exotic weapons???

In SR4, shotguns are fired with the Longarms skill. That also covers sniper rifles and sporting rifles. A sniper could have a short barrel Defiance T-250 as his personal weapon (Same conceal penalty as a machine pistol).

In a world with shadowrun level survilliance and response capabilities, there are really three modes of operation:

A) Big guns Time

B) Covert Activity Time

C) Transitioning from B to A when you get sprung.

In big guns times the big clunky nature of the sniper rifle is outweighed by its benefits. Basically the big sniper rifles with APDS can kill high force spirits. Shotguns cannot. As high force spirits (and drones) are a realistic and tangible threat, sniper rifles RULEZ AND SHOTGUNS DROOLZ

Or something

B) Both are relatively incapable of covert activity. I suppose you could get a sawn off, but even then it's not really concealable, and MAD scanners will find you. Conversely sniper rifles can be used at ranges beyond reasonable detection distances.

C) The transition - both of them blow for this too really because you cannot 'have them' in the covert stage and pull them out when things go south. Both are obvious. This is, incidently, the space that automatics totally dominate.

Well that doesn't seem so bad. I heard exotic weapon and my brain went into D&D mode. I guess that is really a short barreled shotgun.

For this reason, the Slivergun has been my personal sidearm of choice for 3 Editions.

In 4E, its a tougher call to make... but now I'm leaning towards Automatics. Machine Pistols are weapons of all seasons now!

- J.

One noteworthy difference from SR 3 to 4 is how weapon concealability ratings have been eliminated. Any machine pistol will be harder to hide than any heavy pistol, all other things being equal. Furthermore, a pistol can be explained away a lot more easily than a machine pistol. "Oh, I might need to spray down a whole room with bullets in self defense, yeah..." A shotgun or sporting rifle can be left in plain sight on your pickup's gun rack, but an assault rifle or sniper rifle will raise a whole lot of eyebrows.

Excellent point. If the weapon causes you more problems then it is going to solve...might think about an alternative.

Which is why I went with a shotgun on my most recent guy. I mean even if he is caught with the gun. it’s a lot less to bribe a cop off to forget about a shotgun then it is a Colt M23 or a Barret Model 121. Then again I dare a cop to find my shotgun. I went with a Barrel Reduction, throw a sling on it, and got my GM to approve a house rule weapon mod call stock removal for the game which added a -1 conceal, and you are left with a -3/-4 (ready/unready the sling specifics in the description between ready and unready) throw that under a lined coat, and you got a -5/-6 conceal .

The Aztechnology flamer. Let's face it - is there really a situation that can't be solved by barbecuing someone? Or possibly the Ares MP-3 Laser.

...it also depends where you are,in darkest Barrens open lined coat and Assault Rifle under it is ok,
poshier places Ares Predator IV with licence is acceptable, and of course
there are places where tasers or extendable batons are acceptable also..

And let's not forget, things like tasers, knives, and even extendable batons are perfectly legal in most places.

You might get some sideways looks or be required to check them, but technically, they don't require permits. Of course, if you use them in them commission of a crime, they will probably allow the authorities to trump up the charges to some ridiculous degree. (Well, assuming they catch you.)

-paws

This is why they have availability >12. Otherwise everyone would be using them

That is reason why you should always check weapons policy of the meeting place..

Indeed. Its a good idea to get as much info about your meeting place(s) as possible.

-paws

LOL - that is the perfect response to the OP.

Noting that this character is being modeled after the Boondock Saints, how close do you want to get to that theme? In the movie, they pretty much exclusively used pistols and shotguns, and they were quite often dual wielding the pistols. As a GM who encourages role play over power gaming, I would give more personal karma to you for roleplaying those aspects of the character, and using pistols and shotguns even when the situation might call for something different.

2xAres Predator IV w/skinlink,Personalized grip,Internal silencer and Improved Range Finder
Remington 990 w/Internal Smartgun System,skinlink,Improved Range Finder. (Easy Breakdown(manual) ?)
Pistols(Heavy Pistols) 6(+2)
Longarms(Shotguns) 4(+2)
Reflexes Recorder (Longarms skill)
High Edge
High Charisma
Ambidextrous
Muscle Toner (lvl 2,Alphaware)
Agilty at least 5(7)
Martial Arts(Krav Maga or Firefight)
Addiction(Mild) (Alcohol)
That would be starting idea..

When i think Big Guns i'm thinking HMGs, MMGs, LMGs, Assualt Cannons and Rocket launchers... i guess we arne't on the same page...

Completely agree.

Tasers: Reasonably inexpensive, no license required, and they have the same electricity damage that everyone loves about S&S. That said, their ammo capacity and range suck and they don't load anything but taser darts. Still, you can actually pull and use one of these in public without drawing too much attention, so it's not something to be overlooked.

Holdouts: these have one big thing going for them: concealability. On the other hand, they have terrible damage, range and ammo capacity are stlll relatively low, and they don't have mounts for accessories. That said, weapon modifications can get you around the issue with accessories, if you have the right skills - or right contacts; and by the time you finish drawing and emptying a Cavalier Scout into someone, one of you will be dead - if you're not sure it'll be them, this was a time for a bigger gun.

Light Pistols: Compared to the holdouts, the light pistols have 3 things going for them: Ammo capacity, weapon mounts, and cost. That said, they still have the same lack of damage and range, and lose some of the concealability that was a selling point for hold-outs. Use them for the disposability that comes with having negligible cost and availability; skip the post-run drinking binge to go buy a new one after you had to drop or destroy one of these and you'll probably find yourself with more money at the end of the night.

Heavy Pistols: Sidearms with serious stopping power. Less concealable than the prior categories, but the added damage, range, and AP are well worth it if you can get away with them.

Machine Pistols: Probably the biggest selling-point for these is that they use the automatics skill. With the right mods, one of these can potentially still be fairly concealable - though it won't compete with the actual pistols - allowing someone who primarily uses assault rifles to have a reasonably discreet back-up without going into another skill. That said, damage and range are back down at light pistol levels, and you're going to have to put a lot of work into giving them decent recoil compensation. Use it as a sidearm for the guy who needs a slightly more discreet alternative to their usual assault rifle.

SMG: Slight improvement in damage over the Machine Pistol, large improvement in range. Still, for a similar price, you can get an assault rifle with even more damage, range, and AP. Main reason for using is that it is still a one-handed weapon; use it if you're needing the other hand for something else.

Assault Rifle: The automatic weapon. Good damage, range, and AP combined with burst-fire and full-auto capabilities. It's not discreet, but it's probably the best all-around weapon for firefights.

Sniper Rifles: The name says it all. But in case it doesn't: Range and damage. Great for providing distance support or when assassination is the name of the game.

Sporting Rifles: Fills the same role as the sniper rifle, above. Doesn't do it as well, but it's cheaper, less hyper-specialized, and can be explained away to Lone Star.

Shotguns: High damage, terrible AP. Great for tearing up unarmored and lightly armored foes. Switch to slugs or a different weapon if you're facing heavily armored opponents - or any where called shots can't be used to bypass armor. Also works as a back-up weapon for the team sniper, as it provides close-range threat removal tied to the skill they were already taking.

Machine Guns: Start at Assault Rifle stats and work up from there. Better range than the Assault Rifles, but more recoil. Use LMGs for drones or vehicles where you can't manage/don't want a reinforced mount. For use outside of mounting them on vehicles, go ahead and get the HMG - it's more expensive, but by the time you're wanting/needing to bring one of these, you need the extra firepower more than you need the money. Just make sure you have plenty of recoil compensation.

Assault Cannons: Match sniper rifles for range, with even more power. On the other hand, the ammo here is expensive as all get-out, so you don't want to use it if you don't have to.

There is one point people forget about the shotgun. Even if the damage doesn't penetrate the armor, you can be pretty certain that you will drop him from the stun damage. Remember that both the Star and corps are much more likely to hunt you down if you start killing them and their employees.

Remington 970 and Predator IV for me. Best combo of firepower, cost, and legality.

I actually just noticed this, but...

Did nobody mention to Catalyst that the "12" part of Auto Assault 12 is not a model number?

It refers to the shotgun shell gauge size.

The bigger the number, the smaller (and less powerful) the shotgun shell.

So an AA-16 would be a pathetically underpowered weapon for urban combat.

Also, nearly every article about the modern day AA-12 also discusses the FRAG-12 shaped charge HE ammo that is expected to be fielded with the shotgun for specialty use. Yet the shotgun gets into Arsenal but the ammo does not.


-karma