The SR4 rules state that a 16 gauge is underpowered for urban combat? What damage rating do they give to it as compared to a 12 gauge?

Of course they don't say anything about a 12 gauge versus a 16 gauge, or a 9mm versus a .45, or anything like that (they never have, and sadly never will). Instead, they seem to just be misunderstanding the numbering convention of the weapon in question. The real-life Auto Assault 12 is named that because it fires 12 gauge ammunition. They tacked a few numbers onto it to make up a Shadowrun version (the Auto Assault 16, following the same naming conventions as the M-23, the AK-97, etc)...either not knowing, or caring, that the number involved meant something.

They just made it a little higher number to say it was from the future, and left it at that.

Ahhh...I see. Thought I had missed something major. Much like C-4 (Composition 4) actually means something where as C-12 in SR3 kind of misses the point.

ah, another subject near and dear to my heart... >:)
im not going to go into the concealability issues brought up here by other posts into much detail but simply the practical applications i have found.

first, id like to address the shotgun point:
the shotgun is a wonderful tool. predominately we use them for breaching doors- aiming not for the knob/lock but the hinges. slug ammunition is good for putting a running engine out of commision to stop a vehicle that is trying to run past your traffic control point. remember, though, that you should not shoot slugs out of a shotgun with a choke. shot ammunition is great for sweeping rooms but generally a bad idea when collateral damage is an issue. also, a shotgun is one of the easiest firearms to become proficient with and is therefore one of the most widely used firearms today (discounting the AK-47). racking a round in a shotgun is an almost universally known sound and, as such, is a potent psychological multiplier. be aware of over-penetration in self defense roles where thin walls are concerned; check your backstop.

assault rifles are generally, in my opinion, the ultimate tool for urban and rural combat up to 300m. they are relatively light, accurate, and powerful with a strong opportunity for followup shots. i should note that an assault rifle is best suited to semi-automatic fire in controlled pairs and well-aimed shots. burst fire is a last resort- that's what light machine guns are for. typical training teaches us to put two in the chest and one in the head. the first will impact the armor and, in the case of a ceramic plate, will cause it to deteriorate to the point where the second round penetrates. when all else fails (or the guy is on some sweet drugs) go for the insurance round.
(aside: when an instant incapacitation is desired your aimpoint should be midway between the nostrils and the top of the lips from the front, or at the base and in line with the center of the ear from the side. this targets the medulla oblongata, the motor strip, of the brain. without this organ no impulses are transmitted to the CNS.)
to tie in with an earlier point, i carried my M4 at the ready, a pistol handy (on a vest, or strapped to my thigh when ghillied up) and my sniper rifle (M24) in a "drag bag" on my back. the long gun was not broken out until i was in my hide.
and from experience, dont try to clear a house with a sniper rifle.

sub machine guns will suffice in close quarters as has been stated in prior posts, so i wont go into this one too far. a good substitute for an assault rifle when over-penetration is an issue. however, due to the lesser velocity and ft/lbs of kinetic energy (knockdown power) i would recommend burst fire. also, unlike the assault rifle, the submachine gun is great for quiet work. perhaps in another post down the road i can get all wiz-bang crazy on describing silencers, their design, principles, and employment...

pistols? well, the uses of pistols are well known enough that i doubt there's anything useful i could post here. one thing i could think to mention though: make sure you know how to clear a malfunction. if you cant quickly clear a double-feed you're boned. of course if you get a stovepipe, you're boned anyway and retreat, er... "tactical withdrawl" is probably your best option.

at the risk of prattling on any longer than i already have, all i will say about sniper rifles is dont even try to engage a target at less than 75m. unless your target is inanimate and immobile, you'll have a very hard time maintaining a sight picture.


generally, my characters stick with pistols since you can get them and take them most anywhere. they're great silenced and have a multitude of accessories. shotguns are great and handy but i usually dont want to slot the points in that skill since there are so many more that are important. besides i can always default skill to skill (i play SR3) and my characters invariable have somewhere a slivergun or roomsweeper. i only give my characters skill in assault rifles if it fits the background story i created before i crunch numbers. in the case of the twins, they should certainly be more than proficient with pistols but their proficiencies with other weapons should be based on their backgrounds and what has been available for them to train with.

My personal favorite is the Enfield AS-7 shotgun. With burst fire and a 24 round drum, things can get real mushy when you get into 2 or 3 IPs.

One question though. If it could be modified to shoot 10 or 8 gauge rounds, how much extra DV would you give it.

Definitely a nice weapon...
12 Guage is .72 caliber and is pretty brutal when you are using Magnum 3" rounds...

If you Modified the guage of the weapon (like in the Cannon Companion of 3rd Edition)? Probably only a +1 DV more (Maybe +2 if you went all the way to a 4 Guage round)...

And this doesn't even address the issue of legality: there are fully automatic shotguns that are completely legal to carry down the street, while every single sniper rifle is illegal as drek.


The Desert Strike is based on the Accuracy International L96A1 Arctic Warfare sniper rifle in real world use. Have a look: http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn06-e.htm
It's a very robust weapon, earning a distinguished record in the mountains of Afghanistan while being primarily designed to cope with arctic environments (precisely the description of the Desert Strike if you read the "Extreme Environment Lv 1" modification). It is NOT designed for CQB or (heavens forfend) hand-to-hand fighting. Now, given the advances in 6th world materials technology, I can see it where it could be MODIFIED easier than many rifles to that spec, but it would still not be standard as is mentioned on the MA-2100.

Except there's no reason the "shot" couldn't be in a cheap plastic sabot that falls away as soon as it leaves the barrel, but you'd be restricted to a tight pattern.

I tend to prefer the HK-PSG1 Enforcer... A rifle robust enough to stick around for 80 years has gotta be good... aside from the fact that it is THE top of the line sniper rifle in existence today in my opinion... and not nearly as heavy as the Barrett (Weapon system OR rounds)...

Kerenshara's choices and why:

Hold Out: Morrisey Elan with hermetically sealed densiplast rounds; It's tiny, stylish (when that counts), easy to conceal and doesn't show up on mad scanners.
==>When concealability matters

Light Pistol: Light Fire 70 using the "special" silencer with the following mods: Dual Magazines, electronic firing, smartgun link and skinlink; It's still small, the silencer is "same availability as the weapon" which means "R" not "F", the silencer gives an extra -1 to perception, the electronic firing negates the double tap recoil as well as giving another -1 to perception and means I don't have any spent brass to police, and the two mags mean I can go from subsonic ammunition to capsule/DMSO-Narcojet if I need to be non-lethal, nil wireless signal.
==>Standard day-to-day pistol that she keeps in her jacket.

Heavy Pistol: Colt Government Model 2066 with an integral silencer, smartlink, skinlink, melee hardening and extreme environment 1; 14 rounds, nil wireless signature, no recoil, VERY quiet with subsonic ammo, no brass, and tough and reliable as the year is long.
==>When a little more firepower matters, but you don't want to advertise.

Machine pistol: None - if I want auto fire, I go to an SMG.

Submachine Gun: FN P93 Praetor (Electronic Firing) with integral suppressor, skinlink vice flashlight, smartgun, extreme environment 1, melee hardening; 50 rounds, very low recoil, nil wireless signature, VERY quiet with subsonic ammo, no brass, and tough and reliable as the year is long plus automatic fire and better range. [bullpup - we have house rules for concealability]
==>High intensity stealth entry, when autofire and short length will matter.

Assault Rifle: Stock AK97 - completely legal and you can't kill them OR Colt M22A3 - also legal WITH a grenade launcher, despite poor built in features, and modding it kills the "legality" bit... or at least makes it more likely to draw really close inspection.
Assault Rifle: Ares Alpha w/ electronic firing, skinlink, integral suppressor; I think you can see the pattern with my weapons here, right? 40 rounds, grenade launcher, controlable recoil, nil wireless sound or brass. [bullpup - we have house rules for concealability]
==>This is heavy duty bang-bang for her: she's more concerned about not bringing the neighbors running than being subtle for her target.

Shotgun: Enfield AS-7 with smartgun vice laser sight, dual clip, extreme environment 1, melee hardening; It's legal durrable and mean, olus being able to switch between two clips.
==>When she doesn't give a damn about being subtle, quiet or carefull any more.

Sporting Rifle: None

Sniper Rifle: Desert Strike with smartgun, accessory bipod, image mag for the smartgun vice normal scope, melee hardening, integral silencer, and electronic firing; Anybody notice I'm a little obsessive about policing my brass? The GM doesn't want to let me have a Barrett - they're disgusting weapons. Plus the Desert Strike is lighter and smaller.
==>I believe the 20th century jingle went "Reach out and touch some-one!" If we're walking in boldly, I am often the one on overwatch from a rooftop.

Handguns are for controlling the immediate environment.

Shotguns are for shooting winged critters and a heavier hit at close range (immediate environment).

Carbines are for controlling medium distances (200-300 meters), but are capable of longer ranged shooting in skilled hands. Figure 500 meters effective.

Sniper rifles are for precision shots at any range out to 800-1200 meters or farther.

Additionally, consider the actual ranges involved in many Shadowruns in Seattle. A 200 meter shot is a very long way in an urban environment...and probably quite rare. A carbine is almost perfect for the job because it covers that 500 meter range while providing excellent performance in CQB. Heck...in probably 95% of the runs I've played in, the firefights took place at 25 meters or less. In the rifle world--that's almost touch distance.

It goes back to what previous posters said: "right tool for the right job" and "blend in".

The problem I have with many Shadowrunners is that they're unwilling to ditch their weapons. If they just committed a murder with a weapon, the first place it should go after the run is into the smelter. It is for this reason I consider weapons expendable and simply buy several AK's and a bunch of Ares Predators--use 'em then dump 'em.

That can get pricey. Much more useful (especially for pistols, SMGs and ARs) to just get your hands on spare barrels. If you're using electronic firing, there's no brass to trace back. So you're only out the price of the barrels, and the old ones can be destroyed easily enough. But your point is completely valid.

Since I haven't added the last slot of mods to my Desert Strike yet, I am thinking of trying to get a command-self-destruct system if I have to bolt.

All very solid choices... slightly different than mine, but very solid

Just for the look, since this baby already comes with all the recoil compensation it needs?

Thanks.


Not looks - realism. The real weapon that inspired it is heavy, and a bipod makes long waits for a target worlds easier. or maybe I should say "roleplay-ism" since I take my "job" seriously and make sure the tools reflect that, regardless of the printed RAW. Why use a sniper rifle under 200m when an assault rifle will do? Because a sniper rifle is more acurate and thus the RIGHT TOOL, regardless of game mechanics.

Karenshara:
Anyone can use caseless ammo... it's an option when you buy the gun. You don't need electronic firing to get it.

Electronic firing is one of the less valuable mods. It gives nice RC.. but it doesn't stack... otherwise only an extra stealth boost IIRC. Generally for the space you're better off w/ another mod or two.

Falconer:
Yes, caseless ammo has been an option since at LEAST second ed, but it is REQUIRED with Electronic Firing - that's why I bring it up, because not everybody may have caught that restriction or considered the side-benefit. For your review (and those not familiar with the details of the modification we're discussing):

Okay rephrase... your wording above implied that you needed electronic firing to fire caseless. I just wanted to let you know (in case you didn't, that it was already an option w/o it.

What's the two options for that last point of RC... personalized grip or EF.

As far as mods... you're at -6 w/ an internal suppressor. EF is only -1 more for 2 mod slots, and -1 RC on top.

Personalized grip is -1 RC for 1 mod slot... and w/ melee hardening gives you +1 more dice to parry or pistol whip the guy in melee.

At the end of the day... -11 vs. -12 dice to notice your suppressed shot isn't that much.

The reliability text is 'fluff only'. It has no effect.

Now lets look at the costs and requirements...
EF... 2 slots, 1000 and needs a facility to do it, plus it's regulated
PG... 1 slot, 100 only needs a tool kit, and no legality issues whatsoever

Absolutely no contest on the cost/avail front... for what benefit... only -1 additional (when you admit you're already at -11)... though if you absolutely have to be the quietest badass known to man... yeah works well.

Sometimes you just want the EF... it is personal choice...

<removed due to middle of the night babbling idiocy>

Thanks

How positively...absurd! This was clearly written by people without any knowledge of...OKAY, they're writers.

I guess they think that the sear and hammer contribute greatly to the overall noise generated by a firearm. ::SNICKER::

File this one under the "OPTIONAL" rule heading.

Actually you have a +0 Modifier. +4 for being an SMG -4 for the coating. I would not apply the -4 to tactile searches. And Sound Suppressors are incompatible with Gas Vents.


Let's see. Ruger Thundderbolt (with smartlink ¥1150). (heavy pistol) +0(base modifier) -4(chameleon coating)=-4
Now for the 4 other slots:
Gas Vent 3 (2 slots) ¥400
extended clip (1 slot) ¥500
improved range finder ¥1000

Total ¥4050 An Expensive but effective sidearm

What you get:
Truely a heavy pistol in size
Damage 5P AP -1
Smartlinked, no range penalty up to 20m (it's 10, with the weapon above)
5 Points of Recoil compensation so -0 for both in the IP
15 shots (5 bursts)

Personally I would forgo the chameleon coating and take personalized grip (¥100) Firing selection change (¥300) with the GM's permission instead. It is ¥600 cheaper and you can fire FA.

Against Ammunition shortage, use two - one in each hand. Makes two long burst per IP with no penalty. Yay.

If for some reason FA is out, I'd take melee hardening instead. I'm not quite sure if you would get the +1 die in melee of the grip, but more options are always good.

@cREbralFIX: If the supersonic boom and the explosion noise ist removed by subsonic amunition and a sound suppressor, then the hammer and slide are loud. Ever pulled the trigger without a bullet in the chamber?

Regiment: Given that the page reference it includes is for sound suppressors as a modification, I'm not sure whether this still applies when it's a sound suppressor accessory, but...



I also don't like letting chameleon coating improve how easy it is to hide a gun inside your coat or bag (a large firearm hidden under a jacket causes the same size and shape of visible bulge no matter what color it is), but in that matter, the RAW agrees with you.

**SIGH**

Ok, first, you CAN'T use the silencer at the same time as the gas vent.

Re-read the concealability part: you STARTED at +4 (that's HELPING the other guy spot it) and added a silencer, further complicating the problem. Forget how it "looks" - the UZI LOOKS like a pistol too, and you can even try to shoot the thing one handed. The K&K MP7 can be shot one handed as well. A heavy pistol is concealability 0, not +4. Overall, given the cost of your additions, I don't see the utility. Since the game uses fairly broad definitions for concealability (my current beef with the rules, see above), why not go with the FN P93 Praetor? comes out of the box with -1 RC, add the optional FACTORY electronic firing for -2 RC total. Same concealability. Go with a BUILT IN supressor (which is quieter anyhow) and doesn't affect your concealability. Your clip goes up to 50. Sub out the flashlight for a Smartlink if that's your speed. (Why even bother with the chameleon coating?)

I guess I don't understand what you were getting at, unless you were just assuming that looking like a big pistol made it the same concealability. Even if you said it was the size of a machine pistol, they are +2, not 0.

Now, if I missed something, please tell me. I'd love to see what you really meant.

Well, if you call that one optional (it is featured off-the-shelf in at least two or three weapons) then everything is optional.

Now, if you'd like to discuss the thing seriously, then let's have a look. The recoil modifier, I have some questions about. I've thought it over (a lot) and decided you can argue it either way. Their emphasis is on the reduced number of moving parts, which would allow you to come up with some interesting recoil solutions. And it's not just the hammer, it's the spent brass being ejected; it's the slide recoiling. Did you know the old "hushpuppy" pistol had a slide lock (that I heard was duplicated on the Mk 23 Mod 0) to eliminate the sound of the slide recoiling and jacking the next round. Let's be clear: a single die penalty against a threshold of 1 for unsupressed gunfire is functionally meaningless. But with an integral silencer/suppressor and subsonic ammunition the total gets up to 9 dice of penalty. That means the effective "threshold" just hit 5 to hear it (base 2 for suppressed gunfire). That last bit can make the difference, pushing the average to a full extra hit.

I personally think the idea of a fully enclosed system with few moving parts compensating for recoil internally (possibly with a electromagneticly moved counterweight of some kind) the weapon is easier to seal against environmental contamination, thus helping to contribute to the "reputation for reliability" mentioned with the Colt Government 2066.

I think what they did was conceive a smart idea and just describe it for us really poorly. Maybe there should have been slightly different benefits, but then again I always thought that about a lot of game system Crunchy Bits^TM. I just don't want to blow off the Devs as incompetent until I can get THEIR side of the feature and it's rationalle. (If you're listening, AnonyDev, we're all ears *grin*)

Why sigh? They're right. In a quiet room, it's surprisingly noticable. You WERE planning to use the silencer in a relatively quiet area, right? Wasn't that the point? If you're using it on the street with loud trafic, it's a lot less of an issue, and you can skip the feature. Some of us go for the absolutely quietest we can get - say for use in a corporate board room.

You missed the chameleon coating, which applies a -4 concealability modifier (which I can understand as something to mitigate how obvious it is that you're holding a gun, but the logical implication of the mechanics here is that there's some color scheme for firearms which causes them to take up less space when you're hiding it under a coat ). The end result is that the +4 for it being a SMG and the -4 for chameleon coating cancel out, leaving you at +0 (equivalent to a standard heavy pistol). What the point of the statement about it looking like a big pistol is, on the other hand, I don't know.

I believe that the point was that when concealed under a coat, it does not matter what color the firearm composition is... it is still just as bulky as the regular thing... the chameleon coating would possibly be useful in a tactical situation while it was being employed, as it will match the environment around you (assuming of course that you are also wearing a chameleon suit)... it would be "Visually" more difficult to see when not under cover, but would gain no 'visual" modifiers if hidden underneath a longcoat or other article of clothing... thus chameleon coating would have no practical benefit when worn concealed...

At least, that was how I read it anyway... YMMV

This shows you have zero firsthand experience w/ suppressors.

The noise of a semi-auto action working is actually loud enough to be much louder than a well suppressed shot. Not necessarily the click of the hammer hitting the primer. But the sound of the action. (think of the sound a shotgun makes when you rack it, that's nothing except action noise)

This is the reason why many semi-auto real life sniper rifles have a bypass to lock bolt or disable the gas system so they can only be cycled manually just like a bolt action rifle. At military sniper engagement ranges not as much of an issue. But at closer ranges, it is. Some of the older designs based on battle rifles simply use of the rifle grenade gas switch. A bigger reason for doing this at longer ranges is to stop brass from flying when ejected from the gun (which can easily cause sunlight to flash off it, giving away position).

I don't see any issues w/ this rule. Yes the action still needs to move... but it only needs to chamber a new round, it doesn't need to eject a spent casing and insert a new round.

Oh, that was so nonsensical on the face of it, I totally missed it. Not being rude to the poster, but that would be concealability in open view. How does color affect shape when it's covered? That's the BIG problem with larger weapons, not the ability to spot the slotting thing in the hand.

On silencers: knew that

On the rest:

Heh, I should really try to stop typing in the middle of the night.

I keep seeing how people talk about SMG's for burst/FA.

I see, or used to see, people drooling at the BF pistols.

Now I dig the option, and by the rules, it even makes ya pack more chewing power, and that's great.
But I noticed that lots of SMG's have the ability to fire SA, and have mucho superb ranges on the weapon range table.
This could give someone using an SMG access to most things that a pistol carrier would do, but in most cases even better.
The exception to this, as far as I can see would be concealability.
I'd love to put together an SMG that replaces a pistol as a sidearm, with more options.

Heh, guess I shoulda said that and let you masters get to work, rather than trying to lamely do it myself.
Especially since no matter how I add it up in my head it doesn't make a lick of sense when I try to compare it to real life firearms.

Though on a side note, I do love the idea of giving a thunderhawk SA.

Also, lemme ask a question... what would be the downside of choosing a light pistol with Stick-n-shock over a taser?
I can think of legality, and that's about all I can see as what's lost. Most everything else is upside, right?

Don't feel bad. I know I do it all the time.


Well, that's why I keep going on about the P90 IRL or the SR4 P93. If you want a single weapon to do it all, there's your choice. If you REALLY want to get drekky, and don't care about concealability, mod the thing with dual clips. (OK, knowing how the actual P90 feeds, I can't even BEGIN to conceive how you'd DO it, but...) Then you have 100 rounds on board, with mission selectable firing, SA or FA firing modes, good recoil characteristics (if you go by what it LOOKS like, it ought to have a built-in fore grip, and I'd use a sling as well), and the only REAL drawback is that it's "F". But you can't have everything. After doing a bit of research, BTW, I decided the P93 ought to be 4P/-2 based on what I found. Since it's FA, if I need damage, I can always just open up the tap a bit, and I've got 50 rounds to do it with.


The fact that IIRC SnS has a lower damage value than a taser? And the cost of the rounds is a LOT higher than the taser darts? Those two come immediately to mind. But why use a light pistol? Use a hold-out. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it's a good question.

2 of the tasers have 6S, 1 has 5S (and a larger ammo capacity), and 1 has 7S (with attached wires)

Stick-n-shock is 6S(e), as well.

put it in a light pistol, and it's concealable, has better range than a taser, clip fed, more ammo per clip, and able to put on a silencer.

Just a thought.

If this is the case, I may start including it as a standard sidearm/backup.

Hell, it's easy enough to switch to a clip of apds or ex-ex if it's ALL you can take on you in public, just hide the extra clips well.
Doesn't really compare to a bigger guns in usability, but it makes me re-think my standard big-guns view a bit.

Not to mention the Stick-n-Shock ability to affect spirits. (atleast in most people's view)

Functionally there are no downsides to light pistols with SnS. Maybe legally and financially but that's it.

You forgot the 8S(e) taser in the BBB.

Actually Defiance EX Shocker has 8S and wires don't cause any problems rules wise.
Thats why my Sasha allways carries a pair of those in hidden arm-slides.

Oops, I knew that, I even looked it up to make sure... I can only assume that I typo'ed the 7 cuz I was on my laptop at the time... damn big hands

If they really have the same DV, then yeah, I'd have to go with the SnS too for that particular application. Double the comment about swapping out clips mid-'run.