Just so.

No, I have no problem with the CONCEPT. I LOVE the concept. Go back to my original OP way up top. My complaint is that if these guys were supposedly strac before they got out somehow and hit the shadows, I want to see a little more attempt at playing a character with deep first-world military experience and perspective, or a better excuse as to how they GOT to be that drek-hot while managing to be such a square peg in a round hole. Even in the SpecOps fraternity, there is discipline and organization; In a way, despite the frequently less FORMAL interaction, the actual rules that ARE followed become even MORE important. The SpecOps troops of 2070 may often wind up doing the dirty work of some well connected Corporate Johnson or corrupt senior officer, but there's still an extremely well defined chain of command, and when back at base between missions, their support is absolute and (relatively) lavish. Once in the field, it's another story, but they seldom are going to be denied the tools they request for the mission. (They won't always be given all the RESOURCES they want, but as to things they can carry themselves, it's an open warehouse.) Pre-mission planning and briefing is as extensive as time and resources will permit; These people will not jump blind if they can at all help it. Compare and contrast THAT to the average 'run. That's going to make the strac super-soldier sit up and take notice of the amateur and dangerous approach to 'running if they really WERE the professional they say they were. I don't require a memorization of the NATO Phonetic Alphabet, or ability to discuss the tactics of Alexander or Rommel or the works of Sun Tzu, but at least TRY to keep something like a professional military bearing; if you don't, I want your FAILURE to do so to be believable - despondent at the loss of the life you knew and excelled at is just fine for example, but SHOW it. I want more than a fig leaf excuse for your Combat Gumby "L33T Skilz" and brutally casual attitude to the termination of (meta)human life.

Somebody who plays that military attitude well and tries to bring organization and P⁶ (Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance) to the group will have my enthusiastic support and delighted participation. I HAVE seen (and played) a couple of those, but they HAVE been the exception at a dozen or more tables over twenty years.

Does that make sense?

Well said. I've yet to see a proper ex-military character but seen quite a few ex-military chars . People use it mostly for a quick and dirty explanation why their character knows how to operate guns or explosives but that's about all they use for the military stuff. I would really like to see such a character that still acts more like a soldier or at least shows some military-like behavior. Closest what I've played ex-military was someone who had been in the army for few years, but it wasn't his piece of cake. He ended up to be a bodyguard for those who pay and does the runs for some extra cash to pay his surgery bills. He's not too much into such and his training is closer to how to bodyguard, not fight a war.

There was this file about SF in the world of Shadowrun back on Blackjack's page... (Gets his Agent to run Browse and find the file... and fails miserably.)
Or maybe it wasn't on Blackjack's. Anyway, the author described the uses he had for Special Forces, gave a quick statistical description of how good they were at their jobs, how teams would be organised and used (2053, true, but useful for the 2070's) and how to integrate them in a campaign, besides being used as insta-PC killers.

Last, but not least, he gave the best advise on how to play with ex-SF PC's. Regardless of skill and attributes, which according to many threads here they can't reflect a "real SF-guy" out of chargen, the author stressed the importance to focus on the fluff. Describe his military-based behaviour... Maybe he never gets up late, his bed is always millimetrically made and he likes his clothes wide and comfortable, opposed to tight and hip; he's also slightly conservative on his opinions and views. If done well the skills and attributes become secondary and he's a real SF guy. Just learn a bit about how thos guys are trained and bring one or two funny training stories (-"Remember "Fatty"? He never managed to climb the ropes, and every time he tried, he fell on the mud and the Sarge had him do 50 squats. By the time training was over he could do over 2000 squats and not break a sweat, but could not do a freaking meter on the knotted rope climb! Har, har").

By the time you are done fleshing out his personality he'll be a valued team member and everyone will believe he /is/ a SF guy. Don't look so hard at the numbers, but rather at the appropriate skills -get Athletics, firearms, unarmed combat, some computer and demolitions, for example-. So what if your athletics is 2 at start instead of 6? Say he's runing 4 miles every day, and have him keep a home gym for working out and keeping fit. When the karma starts flowing keep in mind what dice pools should reflect his abilities and strive for them, work for them. Finally, when he hits the "real" SF rating mark you'll be so proud of your character and so fleshed out, he'll shed out coolness from his concept much more than the numbers.

As an example is my ex-SF Troll Combat Mage. He's from Spain, and he knows about the gear the military used in his areas of expertise and he works hard to get it for the Runner's team. He talks about how the jobs would be much easier if they had this and that, or if the matrix addicted Technomancer got off his ass for a while and went jogging with him, he nags about undisciplined companions or those who get late to appointments. He keeps his things in perfect order and hates it when someone touches his guns -old habits about barrack mates stealing parts of his gun to replace those they lost, for example-. Its these things that make him what he is, and yes his pistols skill is at 2, his automatics a 3, and I did this by squeezing points. But, does it matter? No. I have huge fun with him, portraying him by what he is, rather than suffering for my innability to emulate "the real" dice pools.

Yeah, it makes sense. But, a lot of the times the people who go for the predictable ex-SF combat character archetype are the less experienced roleplayers as well. If you give it enough time, hopefully they get better. If they don't, talk to them about it. If it really pisses you off, kick them out of the group.

You've got a legitemate complaint, but there's really not much you can do about it. But as long as everyone's having fun, it's all good. That is the point of the game, after all.

Remember the "kid" I keep talking about? That's how HE started out, and he's really impressed all of us. And I make allowances for the young and inexperienced. (Unfortunately, our group tends to run a bit more... flat-out open - read: Not Rated - and that's not always conducive to young'uns at the table.) The reason I'm complaining is that the KIDS usually put more effort into the character than the REAL munchkins: late twenties and older who should know better. If I'm not running, I can't kick them out. If they wind up setting the tone, I quit. That's part of why I have been at SO many different tables. I am fortunate that I am currently with a pretty good group.

Perhaps what you see is not what the player is trying to portray. For example, if my PC is ready at a moment's notice for whatever job you are offering, it does not necessarily follow that the PC is not a military person and not well organised or prepared. He is prepared, that's why he is ready RIGHT NOW.

One thing my instructers drilled into me but bear in mind this is a citizen militia, is that my gear has to be ready yesterday. It does not matter that we just came back from the field, are tired after a weeklong exercise, dirty and hungry. If the button is pressed, we go to war RIGHT NOW.

And as far as I am concerned, the player can choose to portray this preparation in 2 ways. Being able to move and go into operations immediately or know when he needs additional preparation and intelligence. Also the military attitude that I was exposed to is quite different from a professional army I would assume, since most of us(even the non-conscript senior NCOs and officers) were more interested in clocking time and getting our terms over and done with.

It's very simple. The Green Beret Rambo background is the only thing that can explain my ultra munchkin bunches of combat skills and attributes. And why he has tens of thousands of dollars worth of weapons and ammo and cyberware but also has a Street lifestyle. (Because Rambo was homeless.)

There was a period of time that I was an admin on the Detroit MUX and had to go through character backgrounds before they could hit the grid IC. Normally two admins had to give each character app a thumbs up and the surest way not to get that was the dreaded, "I was a UCAS Navy SEAL...blah...blah...blah." Wounded Ronin's post pretty much sums up what I saw with those type of character apps.

There are various types of players but the entertain me type makes my heart sink. They can't be bothered to write down any sort of background for their character. Hell, getting them to provide any sort of RP input to the game is like trying to get blood from a stone. Best of all they can suck the energy right out of the group if their expectations are not being met.

Blood out of a stone is easy... pick up the stone, smash it against forementioned player's head and you get blood from stone! Repeat if necessary.

My favorite real-life incident like that occured at a game a long time ago, in a town far, far away...

A player became frustrated with his dice rolls, and in his anger and frustration, threw the die (a d20) across the room, not at any particular person, but it rebounded off a wall, barely missed the GM's wife, and caroomed off a vase that had belonged to the GM's deceased mother. The room went silent for a moment as the china of the vase revebrated with the impact of the die. Then the GM looks at the player and reaches into their dice box (think Craftsman Tool Box) and picks up a large, overflowing, random assortment of dice and says very loudly: "You take THIS many dice of damage!", hurling the entire handful of dice at the player across the table like a shotgun blast on the word "this". I didn't laugh, because that might have been unwise, but it's one of my favorite gaming memories.

Favourite moment like that was this:

Gm arrives at the table with a smug smile on his face. We were playing D&D so we had various assortments of dice. He walks to one player and asks what die is the one that makes most damage. Player answers: d20. Gm says, nope, and places a d4 on the table and a d20, gets the player's hands over the dice and hits 'em really hard. Player yells in pain; and the Gm asks again: "What die did more damage then?"
We couldn't stop laughing.

And yes the GM was indeed a jerk. The scene was priceless though.

You know the Sentence:"TAKE 1D20 DAMAGE!"?
Throw one D20 made of steel at an offending Player.

Hehehehe...had a jackass try something similar with me. I proceeded with a RL version of a contested roll, his scrotum vs. my elbow, guess which won?

Our group is still missing one D10 that flew out of the window after one player had yet again rolled a 1 on cyberpunk. After that, we started to keep windows closed or have some fly mesh over it so we won't lose more precious dice. Flying objects are fairly common, though the group prefers bottles on disputes My "GM wand" is for real big issues, a hand-and-a-half sword We used to have a chainsaw on the table, too, but now it's moved elsewhere...

Rather than look at if ex-mil can survive in the shadows, looking at the reason an ex-mil is ex-mil is a better determinant, in my opinion. How and why someone left the military has a huge impact on why/if they're running the shadows. In fact, that question - Why are you running the Shadows? - is more of a pet peeve to me than why is this ex-mil guyb is running the shadows. Or, rather, related. I find very few satisfactiory answers to why any character is a 'Runner.

Just as a point of reference, my table has/had a half dozen former military players from all branches that filter in and out as family time permits. Of those players, the only times I have seen them play ex-military characters is when they are a kept 'runner, either by a corporation or government. There was one exception to that rule, but that particular character was a military wash-out and not some super trooper.

On a sidenote, one of our regular players, a former Navy SEAL, has had some characters that have been downright scary. I don't know if it's a product of his training or his actual personality. I didn't really get to know him until after his miltary stint, but he's a solid family man with strong loyalties to his friends and country.

That was sort of what I was working around to from the other direction. Note my complaint: ex-mil as an excuse. You're coming at it from the other side, but we both want EXACTLY the same answer. My feeling is that if the player puts enough thought into YOUR specific question, I think they will wind up ROLE PLAYING my question by default, and that will suit me JUST fine. *grin*

Yeah, that's sort of my point as well.

As to the SEAL, it's those traits (strong loyalty and the other million little things you probably don't conciously catalog) that make characters like him so interesting when conceptualized, designed, built and role played well such a joy and a blessing to have at the table (especially compared to the wannabes and the "Rambo"s).

But it's really hard for me to just accept Rambo as an unacceptable archetype or "boring" character. I'd rather have Rambo than a weepy vampire with a trenchcoat and a katana and 10 pages of self-referential backstory.

Listen to the Rambo theme and tell me that it doesn't make you fight to maintain bladder control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_j7imeNBeA

I wet myself just seeing the poster.

I have one player who is Marine (note that I omitted no article in that statement). Every character he plays has some kind of military background, because his own life to this point has been entirely shaped by his experience as a Marine. Now granted, he is a newish roleplayer and by nescesity tends to draw on his own life experience (don't we all)? But I think he would have a hard time playing anything else...

There's no problem with that. But I guarantee he portrays those characters in a believable way based off his military experiences as well. What I'm curious about, as you mentioned they're a "newish" role player, is what does he do about their backgrounds?

Something else I run in to as a GM (and player) is the player who doesn't flesh out his background because, well, he wants to do that during play as he, himself, gets a better feel for his character. I have no real problem with the approach, especially where the player is grasping because the player has no real grounding upon which to play his chosen character background. As long as the effort is made, that's key.

And, yes, I do have to grit my teeth when I see ex-mil characters, as my brain is screaming "But that's not how that character should be played!"

It may have seemed that I was bemoaning ex-military characters as a whole. I may have been but I should not. It just got really old to get 20 applications and out of those 16 were ex-military Rambo is my middle name and that is why I got all this cyber and they let me keep my favorite MMG as a parting gift. Now the MUX was a different beast, at its apex, we had RP going on 18 hours a day with 60 players on the grid at the same time. It was cool but had the ability to literally burn you out in three months. I know of one admin who had to quit because he got carpel tunnel. On the grid, some of those ex-military archtypes were excellent RPers and others had obviously watched way to many Steven Segal movies. Ultimately...and I know that I am bad person for being this way...I gained an abiding dislike of the archtype.

On the bright side...who the frag am I?

You mean besides somebody articulately and logically defining and defending their views?

If you read the OP (this goes for everybody) you can see that I am firmly of the belief that a strong military archetype has a tremendous amount to offer and can be a very deep and compelling character. I also brought up that such an individual MIGHT have issues adapting to lifeon the 'run in the shadows, but largely because I was hoping for a discussion of ways people have seen GOOD players role play them, or ways GMs dealt with characters whose players DIDN'T. I expressed that my own experience (much of it s a player) had the poor type of player/character. Apparently I am not alone in that experience. I LIKE good military-based characters, and only wish I could see more of them.

Great topic, great read... and great thoughts.

Here are mine, which may not be nearly on par for quality with most that have come before me.

I feel that the best options are a Burn-out or breakdown type design. Not mage, per se. But magic could be a factor in a plethora of ways.
- Had to follow legit orders in a conflict and/or situation that he couldn't get behind... one too many times.
- SURGE took hold during an incident and did something strange that caused the character to be outed and discharged
- A mentor spirit that is contradictory to military life is an easy approach to give a player that is fully educated on rainbow force or splinter cell, and wiki-educated on SOCOM standards, a way to be the ex-sf character in the shadows.

There are others that could be put together, but I am partial toward the SURGE option mixed with a breakdown...
Bob turns 18. Joins Army. Rises rank. Ranger, Q-course, then his first Group assignment. Then he SURGEs in a way that scared, hurts, offends or annoys someone. A week later, he's back on the street, discharged generally or honorably depending on the country and selling off accumulated gear for drugs or synthahol, nowhere to go but down.
Won't take long to end up with a well trained, but very twisted view for an ex-SF character. Allows for mistakes in pattern and discipline... but also gives good info on where the skills and outlooks originated.

On the previous debates, here is my take/s:

What happen to old soldiers, spec forces trained, or otherwise.

-There aren't a nearly as many of them out there as most of the previous comments would suggest. Most of them take the same view for their country as a life dedicated corp employee.
Option for leaving #1 - They stay working where ever they are best suited until they are no longer fit for field work and end up doing other work for their military unit until retirement.
Option for leaving #2 - They get dead (before, during, or after their time depending on where they were and what they knew).
Option for leaving #3 - They get disgruntled or greedy and end up headhunted to a Merc company or corp.
Only the rare exception ends up in the shadows before Merc service. After that, there's tons of lines of crossover to allow for the move.

As a result, they aren't security guards.


Soldiers on skillwires.
Bad, bad, bad, bad, and bad.
Soldiers don't always need to think for themselves, but when they do, it's essential. As well, the lack of predictability is what leads to valorous achievements. If the brass above them had thought of it... then there would have been someone to give the order, and no thinking would have been necessary.
On top of that, skillwire soldiers are soldiers without dedication. Their corp/government has invested minimally in them, and they return with the same dedication. A corp that invests heavily in training, nurturing, and equipping a soldier ends up with the indoctrination and saturation of their views ends up with a soldier that's willing to die for their company or country's views, even if in they don't always agree with them.

So, what happened to the security guards?

They're the same as rent-a-cops today. Usually, they're the less ambitious, more desperate of the security force of their corp/country. The more they put into the corp, the more the corp puts into them. Lots of crappy lower paid meatbodies doing appropriate work. Enlisted types working hard on being good soldiers and soldier bees. The exceptional being noticed eventually and moved forward. The truly exceptional rising through the known paths and ranks, etc. until there is a soulfully loyal cadre of uber spec forces guys with delta grade ware and more training options than could ever be used by any one man.
The wannabes and rejects end up watching the warehouse as security guards and lie about their past and qualifications.

Other questions:
-Do the corps have standing armies? Possible and even likely, to some degree.
-Are they better trained and better equipped than the armies of non-corporate countries? Assuredly so. Almost all of the corps at least dabble in mil-spec gear or training. Even their fourth run equipment, a few years ago that has been replaced by what's new on the market is likely to be a decade ahead of a country's military standard.
-Is every security guard a former SF sniper/seal/ranger/wildcat? heh, only when they're trying to compensate for their beer belly at the local synth-bar.


About how corps handle their military, remember this. In most cases the corps ARE their own country.
As well, they have the money to hire a merc unit or a merc company at a moment's notice if needed. While per day, it will be more expensive to hire or use a merc, they make up the savings in not having to pay them unless they have a direct need.

Boy, I sure can ramble... I'll shut up now.
if anyone sees where I left an obvious hole that looks like I should have filled, lemme know. It's easy to get distracted by half-way decent TV on sunday night.

Church
aka Blackwatch
aka Regiment
A former E-3 in 10th special forces SUPPORT unit.
If I knew then, what I realized after and know now, I never would have left the group, the unit, or the army.

Kerenshara,

As far as what makes a good ex-military type character in RP, IMO...

If they are running the shadows I think there should be a reason for that fact beyond 'my time was up'.

Did they get bounced because they were unable to integrate into the machinery that is the military? Slugged their CO? Conduct unbecoming? Earlier on, Kerenshara I believe, mentioned that military types like being part of the system, have a love of country and loyalty to a team. The ones in the shadows, might not have this mindset which is exactly why they aren't in the military any more. Maybe their CO was an idiot and they acquired a resentment for authority figures. Instead of looking at the archtypical military soldier the player needs to think more in terms of the misfits. They have skill sets that don't fit into civilian life but don't like the regimented approach.

Just a thought.

I think so too, that the reason why one left is the key on the ex-mil runners. I mean the guy who was in the army for 10 years and then just became a runner-background is bit weird. Why did the person leave and if one hated the army, then one wouldn't want to be associated with the military at all. But one doesn't have to be kicked out from the army to leave as one usually has a set time how long one is in the military. That of course means the person joined the army, served there for the time and then moved on. Becoming a runner right after might be an option if one just used the army to get the training. Bit like on the Gangland documentary about gang members joining the army to get training to use in the hood.

You are correct, there are all types of reasons for leaving the military or even a corp. I shouldn't pigeon hole players that they have to play misfits, that is just one option out of quite a few. Probably a heck of a lot more than I have even conceived of.

It should be pointed out too, that Shadowrun isn't Shakespeare in the Park. You don't have to channel Lawrence Olivier or get DNA replacment therapy from Kevin Spacey to play any RPG. I think most GMs would be happy if the players were engaged and contributed.

I agree with Toturi. I finished my mandatory military service last year in the Swiss Army, and his experiences seem to mirror mine. We're conscripts, we learn how to shoot, how to function in the army, but we're still civilians in uniform attitude-wise, waiting for our time to be up (which in Switzerland means 18 weeks of recruit's training, followed by several 3 week refresher courses, one per year, until you're finally let go past age 30 or so.)

Even so, it's a useful background to explain why a character could use assault rifles, grenades, LAWs, HMGs, and mortars (in my case). My brother in law got explosive training, and he's one of the least "military minded" men I know.

As far as the differences between rent-a-cops and (citizen) soldiers are concerned, I'd peg it down to tactics and gear mostly - and numbers. As a runner I'd rather not tangle with guys who don't care about collateral damage that much - especially not material damage - and have the weapons and fire support to do a lot of said damage. Soldiers start to "suck" once they lack gear and/or have their weapon options severely reduced by rules of engagments and/or terrain.

Switzerland. Singapore. I hear the Israeli guys are the same way too. And those guys get Krav Maga training (so if you want your runner to act like a civvy but can really kick some serious ass, make him an Israeli citizen).

And don't forget the "Shadowrun-ized" options. Tir Tairngire, for instance, also has mandatory military training (and, much like Israel with their Krav Maga, even has their own martial art training to go with it). Ditto, the Sioux (on both counts).

Wow, I guess it would be fair to say that my geo-centric view was showing because I didn't factor in countries that have manditory military service. Good catch folks! My bad.

Around here, we got a mandatory military service of 6, 9 or 12 months, depending on where one is assigned. Mandatory for men and voluntary for women to be exact. Those who don't want to, can either do civil service bit over a year or go to jail (for those who totally don't want to serve). I tried to apply to electronic warfare but didn't get there as I went to "wrong" school before the army. So the short version was nuff for me.

As it's mandatory, one can see all kinds of reactions from those who leave the army after that. Some decide to stay and even go to officer school but majority leaves the army for good after 6-12 months. I know some who hates the whole thing and would have to be dragged there again and some who seemed they never left, even though they aren't in the army anymore... and everything and anything in between

It does have an impact at times if all or the majority of a roleplaying group have had military experience. Our version of the Ex-SF guy was played by an infantry officer, and it showed - though we went for the "framed for a crime they did not commit" background, so the ex-SF and his friend had more or less frequent encounters with the military police.

Yes it has an impact... thing is, the sergeant in our group seemed to show the least militaryish behavior and all the guys have had some military training but less than him. One thing that did stick out from his training is his leadership skills, as in, he seemed to think he can boss people around even when he's not their superior. Thus we try to keep him away from the leader's role

Yep, that's the typical. Basic training essentially builds it right in from the bones out. That's why I wanted a good explanation for what you're doing in the shadows. That doesn't necessarily mean they're "misfits". Plenty get disilusioned with the kind of shenanigans the corps are buying on a semi-regular basis. And if you're not a "team player" no way a SF instructor is going to let you near an operational team. If you DO manage to make it through, you'll never make the first mission... or wind up as a nameless star on a wall somewhere when they frag your ass. Normal military could get away with more of that "misfit" thing, but they'd probably be support troops of some kind. But in any case, they aren't going to have the cutting edge 'ware and skills that seem to be a halmark of the "ex-military" runner. I've met enough of those "short termers" that got out after a single tour. Many people learn a lot about life and about themselves and are better for their service. A number of my experience (which give an unfortunate perception to some people) have instead thought they were as seasoned as Gunny. What they didn't realize is that even the CIVILIANS with half a brain knew them for screwups and frauds. But even those individuals wouldn't bring Rambo to the table.

It's ALL about the role play, but it also helps to build the character's mechanics to match the backstory and attitude.

Does that make sense?

You know, it's such a thoughtful response, and the arguments are so cogent, I almost hate to answer your question, but here goes:

I like your SURGE idea, but there are plenty of other related items that could happen - look at any one of the "Latent" qualities for example. And not all the guys looking for cash will wind up in a Merc unit / Corp Special Action Group; As you yourself commented, if you knew what the street was like, you'd have never left. But some people DO leave and decide they've had enough, not realizing what a shock the world is going to be. THOSE are the kinds of characters I find interesting. Running the shadows lets them use what they are/were best at without the rigid barriers of the military (say, a sergeant that wrote a murderous Eval and made your chances of promotion about the same as a unicorn free and peaceful in Aztlan). What I think is that they would try to impose a little more organization on the chaotic (anarchic?) members of their team out of instinct, habbit and a subconcious desire for familiarity and comfort. In my opinion, if they do it WELL, it's a real bonus for the team.

By the way, what was this?

QUOTE

- A mentor spirit that is contradictory to military life is an easy approach to give a player that is fully educated on rainbow force or splinter cell, and wiki-educated on SOCOM standards, a way to be the ex-sf character in the shadows.

I don't get it.

What a LOT of people seem to be missing is that there's a huge difference between a rent-a-cop, a donut eater, a professional guard, crack guards, and a HTR member. The rent-a-cop might carry a weapon, but they're there as a deterent to keep the honest sarariman in line. The donut eater has some decent training, a gun and a badge, something giving them real authority. The professional guard is actually EXPECTING trouble, and will have the skills, equipment and OUTLOOK to deal with it accordingly; These are the fellows experienced 'runners sweat about because they are a legitimate threat and can be prevalent enough to run into virtually anywhere. They aren't particularly expensive, but they will be paid well enough to keep them moderately honest and encourage them to do their jobs WELL. Look for things like Perception, Con, decent WIL, possibly some decent cyber (Corp discount, don'tcha know?) and weapons they actually know how to handle. The crack guards, these the 'runners know how to handle, because they are going to be at the more important sites, the doors you EXPECT to be guarded. They're not 'runners, but they're going to be tough opponents. The downside for them is that the 'runners are expecting them, and there aren't usually too many of them. But one of their FIRST jobs is going to be to hit the Big Red Button the moment they think they can't handle the situation - you know the button I'm talking about, right? The one to the HTR (High Threat Response) team? Those guys either individually or as a group will have the 'runners overmatched such that once they're on the way, the clock is ticking to extract your butts and get clear before three kinds of drek come down on you. These guys are getting almost to the SF level of capability, and many times WILL be where some of your ex-SF buddies wound up. Um, ever hear of Blackwater? Ares FireWatch is right up there and they back up the Knight. Screw with them at your peril - old books included Betaware, full military gear, wicked support vehicles and drones, and magic and decker support to match.

The Merc Company isn't up on your policy, procedure or tactics. If they have to do ANY amount of integration you're in for a headache. Can you say "interoperability"? Now, for things more REMOTE to your own facilities that require a big stick, yes, the Merc Company can probably be pointed at the target and turned loose. But they don't work at all to keep the other guy honest; He can hire them too.

Both of you bring up good points, expressly the mindset of a conscript member of a military force. But I wasn't thinking about that at ALL when I wrote the OP. I mean, that's a GREAT excuse for relatively LOW levels of capability (by your own descriptions, I wouldn't put more than 3 in anything given the way they describe the skill levels). A bit of demo? Heavy weapons? Sure! And it can explain a lot of jaded attitudes and odd quirks.

But conscript service is not an excuse for level 4 and 5 skills, or things like Diving and Parachuting at high levels either. Those kind of things come with long (voluntary) hauls in a volunteer military and/or time in a group whose duties include that kind of specialized and involved training; I'm sorry, just being able to hit a target at 300m on the shooting range 90% of the time doesn't mean you're a sniper with level 5 or 6 skill in Longarms.

Corporate armies would NEVER be conscript: the ROI (Return On Investment) is miserable. What a Western conscript army does is pass along a basic understanding of military skills, tactics and realities to a population as a whole so that in the event of a crisis, the entire populace becomes a ready reserve needing only to have their skills brushed off in order to defend their homes. The CAS and UCAS still have volunteer militaries in the 6^th World, and the last I checked, so did the rest of the nations on the North American continent (specifically exempting Aztlan due to both being Central American and not having any good info on how their army is structured circa 2070). A conscript military isn't really the standing army of the nation: that would be the few long-haul volunteers who decide to stay on and wind up acting as the cadre for the rest of the force.

I may need to come up with a European "conscript" character concept at some point, as it does have some possibilities I like, but it was in no way what I meant when I composed the OP. I had meant people from standing armies who had served long enough to rightfully qualify for the descriptive text of skill level 4: Seasoned veterans with at least four years active duty.

My rambling prolly screwed things up.... the thoughts were there, but the fingers betrayed them.

I wasn't meaning SURGE to be a single viable event with no comparison. I was meaning it to be an example of a major change that could kick the person to the curb without justification, causing a breakdown or resentment.

Aside from that, I wasn't meaning that there are NO runners straight from the military.
I was simply meaning it in the sense that most aren't visible in a breakdown of "What happens after..." reports and graphs. I think they're would be the chunk that goes to merc units, even as logistics when past their fieldability. And then there would be the "Other" group... to which runners would fall into.
In general, they would be the exception to the rule... rather than a majority of the ex military, or a minority of the ex military. The majorities would be the examples I previously used... while the minorities would be things like "went to another corp"; "left for family obligations"; etc.

On the Mentor spirit thought that you didn't get...

I was simply meaning it as a way for a player that THINKS he knows about the military and SF could play, and do it wrong, and have an excuse inline with his actions. (If the Mentor spirit is chosen with this issue in mind)

On the Merc thing... I wasn't trying to imply that they would be the meat and bones of any corp's security force, I was referring to wars and skirmishes. This way, the corp has their security grunts, donut eaters, elite guards, and Firewatch/Red Samurai on the normal payroll, but don't have to pay a standing army daily.

On the whole, Keren, I don't think I've EVER read anything you typed that I could actually disagree with.

The main purpose of my post was to support your views on 2070's military structure and response, as well as give a few basic examples of how to leave the military and knock on the shadow's door instantly.

That hits most of it. I still don't think I fully get the mentor spirit thing, but I'll come back and re-read it with a fresh set of Mk. 1 eyeballs in the morning and see if that helps. I figured that was your take on the Mercs, but I wanted to be sure. I have heard some people think they could slot right in like an interchangable part, because military training's all the same, right? *rude noise*

I DO think those fellows, numerically compared to the rest of their mustering out "class", would be a vanishing minority, and I know most people agree with me on that. But considering that like tends to attract like, I think that looking at the demographics of SUCCESSFUL (read: surviving) 'runners would probably reveal a disproportionate amount of military backgrounds. Egad, is that what I've been trying to say the whole thread? How depressing. Let me try it to be clear, because you talk about YOUR rambling?!

As a group, if you look at successful 'runners, I believe that you will find a vastly disproportionate amount of volunteer professional military backgrounds amongst them, with again, a disproportionate representation of Special Operations membership. I believe that part of the reason for their survival will be their intensive training, but also the mindset and attitudes indoctrinated into such individuals and honed through constant practice. They will tend to much more team oriented by default compared to almost any former civilian 'runner, and probably will feel more comfortable with some form of structure, not necessarily rigid constraints, but a framework within which to work and establish clear areas of responsibility and a sense of leadership and cohesiveness. Not every person who falls into the shadows after leaving the military will fit that mold, but those that do would almost HAVE to have some sort of compelling story as to how they arrived where they are. Their attitudes should be reflective of their background, and if a player wants to steal from movies for inspiration, I will take Heartbreak Ridge over Rambo (or gods help us, Tropic Thunder) any day of the week. the main character demonstrated professionalism, concern for his men, desire to pass on institutional knowledge, a willingness to ignore the rules when the situation called for it while conforming completely when there was no reason to deviate. But most of all, I want something with some actual life in it. I know it's asking a lot, but it's why I play.

Well, you could still make an "ex-military" runner who was support staff. Maybe he couldn't plausibly have all the cyberware but you could still justifably give him high firearms skills. Maybe he practiced a lot on his own. Maybe he's just talented. Or maybe even if he wasn't special forces per se he'd still have enough skills and mean-spiritedness under fire to do some damage. Guys in the military could still go out and cause anti-social mayhem even if they weren't freaking Snake Plissken.

My illustrative example would be the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, where the "bad guys" were ex-military and even though they were killed they still pwned some FBI agents and precipitated the development of the 10mm pistol cartridge which is sadly no longer used by the FBI. (WTH is .40 S&W all about? Just use .45 ACP if you want a well-behaved cartridge that is still traumatic to be hit by.)

Link: http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html



So that could be your SR character right there. Again, he doesn't have to be Snake Plissken.

My thinking was:

Mage in the army...

down the road, he gains a mentor spirit, like... lets say Rat.

Now he has problems with combat and in general is no longer conducive to a military career in the field.

If it's Thunderbird, maybe he gets into 10 too many fights at bars and is kicked out.

In my original thought, I was going with something like Adversary from Street Magic.
Not only would the character have a problem with authority, and orders.... when the Player playing him/her screws up at the table, playing their military ex-SF like a classic bar-story marine, ready to fight over anything, anytime, with or without provocation... then there's a way to mitigate this, with on-paper logic. The in-character excuse is the mentor spirit. The Out-of-character reason is lack of experience with cool, detached SF guys.

AHA!!

OK now I'm tracking!

My own view is that a Mentor Spirit (even for latents) is a reflection of a fundamental part of a person's nature, and that Awakening simply brings that to the fore. (I DON'T believe you should be able to buy it at any time OTHER than when you actually Awaken.) So a magician who will eventually have Adversary as their mentor spirit, will always harbor those tendencies and outlooks, thus making them an EXTREMELY poor fit for the military, and in that case or another like Rat, would eschew the military in the first place at all costs.

Thanks for the repeated attempts 'till you got through.

When I say "high" I mean 4+ and more often 5+ really. And I DON'T think a parachute rigger is going to get to those levels on their own. Getting those levels requires THOUSANDS of rounds down range, and the military isn't going to pick up that tab for anybody not at the sharp end. You needed to demonstrate skill 2 to pass basic, 3 for any infantry-related AIT probably. But that's it. Same thing goes for unarmed combat - it would have to be a serious hobby on the side, and wouldn't wind up being strictly "military" in nature. You don't get to be a fifth dan black belt casually.


Um, as to the .40 S&W, there are certain ballistic coefficients that are unique to the caliber, but the recoil in an automatic pistol were just too high to be considered acceptable in trials. The cut-down cartridge managed to deliver most of the muzzle velocity and energy delivery without wear on the weapon or the shooter. .45 ACP, while a phenomenal round, just moves too slowly; that lack of speed means a piece of armor has more of what it needs most: Time. That's what a vest is doing: slowing the bullet over distance and time. The faster the round, the less time the vest has to work its magic. Look up the ballistics on non-Plus P .45 ACP versus .40 S&W and you'll see comparable or superior numbers with the .40, plus the better penetration and flatter trajectory. That means it's a lot easier to shoot accurately. I own a .40, and I love it. My next weapon will be a .45, but it's not for the same job, and the weapon will be able to handle the +P round, which means my ballistics won't be the same. Not too many automatic pistols can handle the .45 +P out of the box and have long productive lives.

When you shoot, you are not really demonstrating a skill level. You are demonstrating a capability (attribute + skill) to hit a target. And the army isn't going to jump your ass for demonstrating a higher level than necessary capability while it will certainly make sure you pass. So if you are weak in shooting, you will achieve the necessary capability, that skill or capability level is the minimum you must achieve.

You need to hit a Threshold of 2 to pass basic(6 dice). You need to hit a Threshold of 3 for any combat related positions(9 dice). Then perhaps you need to show you can consistently hit Threshold 3 or more to qualify as a marksman(12 dice).

Matix and Platt are fortunately very rare birds, but yeah, Platt really damn determined and damn effective despite taking an unsurvivable wound almost at the start of the shooting, before he killed two agents and shot two others.

Like I already said, that's not the case for Tir Tairngire or the Sioux Nation. Both have mandatory military service. That's plenty of character concepts with built-in military training right there (elves of any ethnicity, Amerinds of any metarace). Since both countries also got the SR-created reputation for having "the very very best of the very very best" for their SpecOps types, there's plenty of opportunity for someone to have earned plenty of higher skills before washing out of training, or what-have-you. The chaos in the Tir (still unexplained to a large extent) is also plenty of explanation for why solid soldier-types might have left the Peace Force.

Hmm... I have no military experience but what about something like IIRC Red Cell / Rogue Warrior / Richard Marchinko fiction as a template for a highly trained / cybered former military character? Like the character sees the shadows as their preferred method for continuing to carry out their perceived (delusional or not) mission, sorta like John Travolta's character in the movie Swordfish. In fact, wouldn't corps be turning some of their special forces / counter terrorism units into deniable assets occasionally? Isn't that kinda what that silly tv show The Unit is about, some CT guys undercover or some such. The only thing I see hindering the whole idea of former Special Forces would be I don't really understand how you can make one out of 400 BP reasonably since my understanding of them has them as much more than just Jack of All Trades, Mastery of None, rather Master of Many Trades but that is probably just my lack understanding into the creation of characters. I would guess that the highest former military that would be reasonable with 400 BP would be like a specialist of some sort, which is kinda what those different character examples in the book seem to be.