So as a GM I've come to the conclusion that when I run a Shadowrun game I would like to make the game go faster. I find that I'm often completely and totally bogged down by rules, modifiers, etc and it can grind a game to a halt while I look something up. Often times I fix this by running my gutter run campaigns which means that it brings down the complication to a more managable level.

For example, instead of taking all of my dice out and rolling umpteen d6's I'll roll before hand and have everything available or I'll use a computer generated dice program.

I'll also limit the amount of money someone can spend at chargen from 50 BP down to 20 BP and reduce availability level from eight to six (except in the case of hackers and riggers). This means that less of the fancy stuff is available which gives me an easier time.

I'm just looking for time savers so I can spend more time on running the game and less time figuring out the math.

I'd almost recommend having two people to run the game. Have your normal GM role take up the creative part of the game while a 'Vice GM' exists only to track mechanical aspects of the game for both the GM and the players. Good luck finding someone that want's to Vice GM.

I almost never use situational modifiers when I run a game except for wounds. Though I do take into account any modifiers that I can during game prep. But once the dice start flying things go too fast to bother looking things up. If a character is in a situation where something is going to be harder or easier I just adjust the threshold by a resonable amount.

My game time is too short to waist it looking up modifiers so I just go with it. The base mechainic is very streamlined and creates fast game play if you let it.

I am the same. i rarely worry about modifers other then wound. only time i will stop to double check something is if it will be a gamebreaker , ie PC may die, completing critical task, etc. or its rule a I rarely use
even on lot of checks i say either you do it, or here is the info you find.
at times, i roll several combat rolls while i wait for the player decide what they are doing, so as soon as they figure out what they did, i can say if they hurt the guy or not
and i just started, on trial run, limiting the time the players have to figure what they are doing during combat. a minute or 2 is fine as they state their action and get dice together, but when they sit there trying to get a viewpoint from every angle for like 5 or more minutes, i say that the character con't figure out what to do and move to the next player. combat takes long enough in shadowrun
on extend tests during downtime, just the 4 dice = 1 success ruling. makes it so easy to figure out how long it takes on average to work on something. but then one player had to roll and he was stoked when he built some glasses with some serious enhancements in like 4 hours or something, a very short time for the job required

most combats, any init. ties goes to the players giving them 1st shot at the guy who is as fast they are

I too drop some modifiers.  Partially to save time or not over-tax my memory, but also because I think some of them are sorta silly.  

One that I have never applied since I started running SR over a decade ago is the "Friends in melee" modifiers. I mean, seriously, if a person has been ganged up on by 3 or 4 others, they are already in a dire situation.  Why add to the dilemna?  I jsut never ever quite got he whole point of that particular mod.

Like all GMs I forget to apply mods sometimes.  It happens.  If a player catches it and applies it and it's in severe detriment to his character I usually award them an extra karma at the end of the session for their honesty.* I usually get the majority of the gun stuff, reach, cover and so forth but the one I am most guilty about not applying is the visibility modifiers.  I simply jsut forget htem in the heat of battle.   I think it's because in my mind's eye I have such a vibrant visual of what's going on and where each PC and NPC is I jsut don't think about them not seeing each other as well through, say, the dimly lit fog of the alley.

Vlad

*  Limit one karma per session per character.  Offer may be discontinued at anytime if it suits the GMs purpose. Not valid with any other offers. Special resrictions may apply.  Not valid in all states. Never deal with a dragon.

SR4 is too complicated for you, and needs more streamlining? Seriously?

How long have you been GMing SR4?

I just started though i've been a follower of SR since the 1st ed. My players also are new to SR4 if not SR in general.

For me i have to get familiar with just about everything. I know of the modifiers but only apply when really needed.
like trying to snipe someone in fog for instance. If you are new to it like me its going to take a bit to get up to speed.
Them sometimes you just have to wing it for the sake of having fun.

Well, you can try forcing your players to shave and wax their heads for less wind resistance, but that's about the only streamlining I can think of that can happen at a game table.

About a year now. Mostly play by post.

And CanRay?

You are the best person.

I too tend to de-emphasize modifiers, which is to say that I don't totally discount them, but I don't spend a lot of time crunching the numbers. When the focus of the game becomes modifiers (which is a frequent occurrence with certain types of players) it really becomes an exercise in futility. When you think about it there is a gadget or spell or something that negates just about every modifier, so a well-equipped PC will have an answer to anything the GM throws his way. GM says "darkness" PC says "low-light vision"; GM says "range" PC says "mag vision", GM says "cover" PC says "smartgun" and so on and so on and 5 minutes later you are basically back to the player rolling his base DP usually with a few bonus dice.

So I tend to leave DPs as they are except for major factors that skew things one way or the other. Damage mods are a good example. Cover is another. Trying to fix a drone without any access to tools. Called shots. Stuff like that. I tend to allow the PCs any bonuses they get from something they payed for (nuyen, karma, BP or what have you) so long as their DPs remain reasonable (min-maxed PCs are a whole other topic). Most other things I just estimate and keep going.

I don't know if you have your players pre-roll, but if you trust them to be honest it can be a huge help. While they are waiting for others to do their actions have them roll their dice so when it comes around to them they can just list numbers and description. If one of their buddies kills their target or the situation changes, just apply the roll to their new target. It sometimes leads to frustrating situations, such as having a great roll and the fight finishing before it comes up, but at a full table it can make the difference. In addition to pre-rolling, have them look up stuff in the books while they wait. If they want to take some special action, they need to know how it is done by the time it gets to them, or they have to default to something else. It encourages the players to learn the material. Additionally, require them to have the book reference marked in case you want to review it.

My group also uses a dray erase board to post relevant information during the game, especially combat. For instance, if three of the enemies are behind cover, note it on the chart. Then the players can look up there rather than having to ask if they forget.

You can also make cheat sheets with all the commonly used modifiers, print them out, and hand them to each player. That can cut down on book referencing considerably, which makes all the difference in a chaotic combat scene.

Hopefully they also keep track of their common DP's, including mods from gear. If not, smack them gently with a dice bag and tell them to do it.

Of course, removing certain modifiers from the game or lumping them all under one category is also helpful.

Hope that helps.

You'll notice that almost everyone here says to reduce (or ignore) modifiers. That seems to say that playing the game as written - with full use of the modifiers is too complex and does need streamlining for the majority of those posting. And since Dumpshockers tend to represent the more die-hard faction of SR gamers, I'd argue that the average gamer out might find SR's mechanics to be a chore badly in need of streamlining.

Beyond dice pool modifers, I'll throw in that I find the whole Initiative and IP system to be counter to my fun, and the fact that the actions are poorly defined - or sometimes too restrictively defined doesn't help much either.

Critias: "Too complicated" and "more complicated than desired" are entirely different.

I'm looking at my SR4a book now. One of the BIGGEST things I really like is that they've made the skill section of the rulebook MUCH easier to read. The relevant charts are right there right w/ the skills. Which eliminates a LOT of the section flipping and where the hell is this found problems that used to come up.

I'm wondering how much of the problem comes from poor editing and layout in the prior book making things hard to read and find.


Catalyst is BADLY guilty of this in the battletech line of books right now.
Charts which should be single line entries end up being 3 different charts on 3 different pages... and the rules and equipment descriptions are in Total War, while the construction rules are in TechManual. It pretty much MANDATES the use of design software, simply because that collects all the information in one place. Aerospace fighter combat is a complete mess w/ rules scattered across multiple sections and one of the worst editting jobs I've ever seen.


Also, if you were to make up a streamlined situational mod chart to hand to players. What would it look like? That's a big question.

IMO: I'd keep visibility mods, I'd keep cover as it is in 4a (defense pool bonus rather than attack penalty). In opposed tests, unless it's a player specific penalty (like vision mods)... I think it's generally better to add dice to one side, or the other rather than subtract one from one (excepting self-inflicted player actions like called shots).

Part of me wants to see how much the SR4a book fixes thing and helps streamline things w/ it's changes.

Too little, too late for me. The game needs a new engine and the folks at Catalyst don't seem inclined to do that, so I'll find something else on my own (or with help from others here).

Don't hijack someone elses thread, just because you're a bitter troll HappyDaze.


The game doesn't need a new engine (which would mean an entirely new edition), I've seen plenty of other engines in plenty of other systems. Games which do like you were saying in your other thread... Everything from 7 seas, to L5r, deadlands, and much beyond. There is no game which I've seen yet which takes such a fundamentally simple dice concept as SR4 did. Good luck finding your new 'perfect' system. (better yet, go diceless and go pure storyteller that seems to be what you want).


My point is quite simple... SR4a is FAR more readable and understandable than the original book is. I give the editors and layout guys very high marks on this score.


Here's something to keep in mind... if someone's going to leave. Leave. If they keep popping up, they're merely looking for attention and probably should be ignored.

Falconer, drop your personal attacks against me. I'm not trolling, and I'm not violating the board rules. You're being rude towards me just because you disagree with me. That's actually a bit worse than anything I've been doing.

Quite a few people here are saying they drop the modifiers.

I'll grant you that it takes a while to learn them all and it really helps to have some summary sheets printed up and next to you while you run the game, but I find the modifiers an important part of the system. The reason being is that they have a noticeable effect on how my players behave. Modifiers in melee for having a better fighting position? For glare? For lighting effects? If you use the modifiers, people will make interesting tactical decisions to take advantage of them. E.g. shooting out lights to reduce so that people with low-light have an advantage, seizing the higher ground, using machinery to help with the stealth rolls, etc.

They just add something, imo. Best thing to do I think, is to have printed reference sheets and to do a ten minute prep time before your session writing out relevant rules that will come up.

K.

Except White Wolf's World of Darkness, you mean...
...Which has uses the same dice mechanics.

Or White Wolf's Trinity line, which was using those mechanics before SR v1 come to market.

Yes, the nWoD System is quite simple and ease to use, especially if you consider that it is a pure storytelling game descended from a system with not so much focus on combat but instead of creating an interesting character. Just look at the Merits and Flaws, especially the social ones and compare them to Shadowruns qualitys.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was under the impression that Trinity wasn't out till 1996 or so -- even under its original Aeon name -- which is well after SR1's 1989 release.

No, you've got that one right. Trinity didn't come out until the original 5 World of Darkness games had already hit the shelves, and even back in the original softcover first edition printing of Vampire, White Wolf was acknowledging the influence of Shadowrun on their own game designs, not the other way around.

Synner667:

World of Darkness uses d10's does it not. (excepting LARP which goes with the jan ken pon). I have an old Mage book a friend gave me, but haven't looked at it in ages and don't remember it having fixed target numbers.

And it's been a while, but 7 seas did the same thing as prior edition shadowrun using d10's (variable target #, reroll 10's).

The only other game besides SR in it's various incarnations which uses fistfulls of d6's that I can think of is Star Wars d6. (which IIRC used a roll them all then add them all like calculating damage in DnD).


When it comes to systems for quickly scaling results... Roll X dice, and count those over a fixed TN is pretty fast one of the fastest ways I've seen it done. (sum is a pain, as the math challenged always have trouble doing it quickly).

Even d20, it seems people spend forever trying to puzzle out what the mods are when they roll so they know exactly what to add to the dice roll. (even there I prefer 2d10 to 1d20 because of the bell curve it puts in the results).

The WW analogy is apt. The basic set up of the WW system is rolling Attribute+skill +/-modifiers. The main difference is d6 and d10. The math works out differently, but the basic concept is the same.

Trinity did come out in 1996, well after the launch of the WoD line. The Trinity system is just the WoD system with the target number ("difficulty") set at a permanent 7. Rather than raising or lowering the difficulty or the number of dice, the ST sets a number of successes necessary, mechanically exactly like a Threshold. The number of stated modifiers in the rules are slim. Mostly the game just instructs the ST to adjust modifiers based on the circumstances, with some guidelines.

The combat system is similar for the same reasons the basic systems are similar. SR's system is more complicated and robust. It's really a matter of style. If you want to play a game that focuses on the story over the rules, with built-in flexibility for removing or simplifying, WW is a fine system. If you enjoy digging your teeth into the combat numbers and having to think tactically, SR definitely has advantages.

WW has its own issues, of course, and I'm not saying it is superior. It is generally more stream-lined.

I vice DM in my friends D&D3.5 game. I'm a player so I don't know any non player information so I just help wrangle the players when we have a large group and resolve rules questions when he's busy doing something more important. Basically my job is to keep the players from all yelling at him at once. I know I hate it when I'm looking frantically through my notes for something only to constantly be asked questions that aren't relevant to what's going on.

Back to SR! For environmental modifiers I always put them in the margins of my notes for an area. For things I can't really plan for I just ignore them if they aren't major. I don't think figuring out how much cover a potted plant gives a guy while he's running past it really effects anything, I will using the running modifier though.

Personally, I'm leery of ditching modifiers for simplicity. Years ago, when my group switched from DnD to SR3, we ditched 99% of the modifiers. Found the game crazily lethal. When we started applying them properly it all made sense and worked properly. Left scars though - ever since try and apply modifiers in game systems as the designers intended, no matter what the game.

I like to make cheat sheets. Keep different ones for different actions. Really cuts down on the book referencing incidents. Also found making them got me to examine rules a bit more closely and gave me a better understanding. For some of the more complex stuff cards can be great. Was a bit of an effort to start with, but it's a one off time expenditure.

Found a big timesaver is getting people to precalculate their rolls while waiting for their turn to come up. Found a player keeping track of initiative quite useful - give other players a heads up when their turn is coming around.

I guess it depends on how much time you have to cook with the system. I'm here on Dupshock a lot and spend hours prepping. A few of my players are pretty heavily into the crunch too. Then we have my wife - she's a casual gamer that doesn't want to look at the rules unless she's already at the table (game time is game time and everything else isn't). For her, SR4A is a total nightmare that punishes her for not 'doing her homework' - and that's simply not fun for her at all.

The GM is the bottleneck for running the game. Recognize this and work on removing things from the bottleneck.

Interaction goes in the following pattern.
GM <--> Player A
GM <--> Player B
GM <--> Player C
GM <--> Player D
GM <--> Player A
etc

What you want is to make the following happen

GM <--> Player A, Player B prepares for turn
GM <--> Player B, Player A looks up a rule, Player C prepares for turn.
GM <--> Player C rolls to hit, Players B rolls their damage resist and records there DV boxes, Player D prepares for turn.
etc...

Set the expectation that while the GM is not paying them attention they need to prepare for their turn.
A rule question comes up, point to the player not doing anything and tell them to look it up. Go to the next players actions.
Someone can't decide what to do, they are delaying action till later, move to the next player and come back to them later.
Casters cast spells or summon, the moment they are done with the roll, I tell them to roll their drain and I move on to the next person.
The NPC hits for damage, I tell him, resist 14 DV AP -5, and I move on to the next person. They don't need me to watch their soak roll.
Have a player track Init for everyone. Have a player count IP passes.
Modifiers are a GM Tool, don't look them up, just use them.
Players are responsible for their PC bonuses, if they forget them, tough, skip it, they'll realize they need to know their own character stuff ahead of time.

This has nothing to do with the game version. This would happen in any game where the rest of the players are doing things differently then one person. It could be Parcheesi and the same problem would occur. Social issue, nothing to do with SR4A. SR just happens to be the game this is happening with.

A fair point there.

In the case for my group, I prepped the sheets - reckon it took me about the same amount of time I'd usually spend prepping for a couple of game sessions.... just printed off some excess copies for the group.

WRT the point with your wife - found that a bit of a problem for SR (both 3 and 4)... I've had some problems with more casual players and getting them engaged and unconfused without slowing the whole game up. I ended up encouraging the 'rules-iest' player to help them out getting ready for their turns/answering questions. Seemed to work out well - and had the bonus effect of keeping the rules guy occupied.

Do you GM a big table (7+ players), or a small one (6 or less)? Using a Vice GM is great for big tables, I did that with my 2ed/3ed group (and 3ed D&D group), the problem is finding someone who is willing to take on that role. It may help to give your Vice GM a larger role than just looking up rules, or tracking initiative and modifiers. I would have my VGM run specific NPCs as well, both in combat and during more passive scenes. This takes more prep work, and I would typically have my VGM show up about an hour before everyone else so we could go over the roles he was going to play in that session.

If you are running a smaller group, my best advice is to know the rules, PCs and missions you are running well enough that things do not get bogged down:

Rules - Early on it may be helpful to use cheat sheets, there are actually some pretty good ones out there to be found on the interwebs, find some that cover your weak points (for me magic was my weakest point at the beginning of SR4), print them out and use them until you are comfortable with GMing without them. If you get into a situation where you don't know a certain rule, or where to find it quickly, don't let it bog the game down. Make a quick decision, and look it up after the game, then make sure you note where you found the rule for future reference and until you have it down. Quite often, this will not even be necessary, if you have any rules lawyers in your group, they will often look things up if they know you are winging something. Just let them know ahead of time that your decisions are always final for that session, and that they should approach you after the game (or during a food break) with the actual rule.

PCs - Have your players make 2 copies of their characters, and keep one for yourself, make sure that each time they update their character they also update your copy. Familiarize yourself with the characters and what they can do. Look up things you find on the character sheets that you are not familiar with before the game session starts, and also note where you found those rules on the character sheets for future reference.

Missions - Make sure you are throughly familiar with the missions you are going to be running before the game starts, using the character sheets you have from above, try to imagine how the group will approach the mission and look up any appropriate rules and make notes. Of course it is difficult to imagine all possibilities, but be prepared for what you think are the most likely courses of action from your players. If you don't have time to prepare, and have to wing things for a session or two, stay in your comfort zone. Don't wing a mission that will involve alot of matrix action if you are not entirely comfortable with the matrix rules.

The most important thing is to have fun, and make sure your players are having fun, the rules are just a means to reach that goal. Do not be afraid to wing something to keep up the pace and fun, and look it up after the game. Some times you may even find that the way you did things makes more sense to you and your group than do the actual rules, this is how house rules are born.

Speaking from a lot of personal experience, I would advise against switching to a white wolf system for streamlining, less combat, more of a social game, rules consistency or anything like that.

White wolf has very good 'PR' when it comes to their system, and sadly a good deal of it isn't true.
That's not to say it can't be fun, but go into with it your eyes open.

I've run and played in pretty much every product they've published in the last decade. I'm currently trying to switch my game from White Wolf to Shadowrun, in an attempt to get clearer rules and less combat

But I did have some good times.

As for the rest, I haven't gotten to run enough of SR4A to comment on if it's streamlined 'enough'.

That's not true. She's had no difficulties with games like D6 and Savage Worlds. Even without the 'homework' the games tend to flow far easier to a casual player. She's picked up Cortex System within 30 minutes, and the old Icon system of LUG was something she understood toally after one session. Some games are simply more complex with more fiddly bits than others, and SR4/SR4A (most versions of SR, in fact) and D&D3.0/3.5 all fall into a gruping that exceeds the commitment that she's willing to put in.

I'm going to actually jump in with a suggestion as to how I deal with it. It's a technique I picked up playing Classic BattleTech all those misspent years ago.

Base Number + Technology + Self Move + Range + Other person's modifiers to me + Cover = Final

In CBT that's [Gunnery + Run/Walk/Jump + TarComp/Pulse + S/M/L + Displacement + Terrain] = Target Number.

In Shadowrun [(Skill+Stat) + Walk/Run + laser/Smart + S/M/L/E + Target + Cover] = DP

Skill+Stat is self explanitory and should already be on your sheet.
Walk/Run is a simple question with an equally simple answer.
Are you using gear to help target acquisition? Then add it.
How far is the target?
Is something makeing the target actively harder to see/hit?
Is something making the target passively harder to hit, like physical cover?

(Concealment is a Target modifier as far as I'm concerned - something is making the target ITSELF harder to hit. If you're firing in melee, there's no cover except the badguy's flailing arms, so it goes under Cover. )

Then if you take actions like Aiming, modify the DP you came up with. If you get in the habbit of always doing it the same way, soon enough you're doing it in your head and rolling dice instead of SCRATCHING your head and checking tables. There are a couple things that might come in that aren't covered, but they're so unusual that you can just tack them on.

I show up to Cons to play BattleTech and all I ask is range and eyeball the LOS for cover, and I spit out target numbers in seconds. It just takes practice.

And I think this is the key. The more you play -- with all the modifiers, the way it's meant to be played -- the better you get at it. The quicker the math comes, the less you've got to stop and fumble with books to look things up, the faster you get at remembering your usual modifiers, etc, etc.

Just like anything else in life, the more you do it the better you get at it.

While I believe that's very true (from my own personal experience in fact), I think your overlooking something in their arguement.

It's not that they are saying that they are saying the system can't be learned. It's that they believe the learning curve may be too steep in comparison to other games.

As I said before I haven't run it enough to throw in my 2 nuyen on that, but I can atleast see where they are coming from. Some games are easier to learn then others, and I would bet that SR4 or SR4A do not fall on the bottom of the curve in the easiest 10%.

Remember many dumpshockers are what you would call 'hardcore' fans. I've played multiple editions, and spent countless hours reading over books, charts, fiction n such. And I'd bet many others here have done the same

However I will say that just from reading the books, I can tell that SR4A does NOT compare with the complexities of say GURPS, some White Wolf Games, FATAL (*shudder* ew ew I'll never be clean just from mentioning it) and other large unwieldy artifices of reality simulation number engines we also call RPGs.

*shrug* If Shadowrun can be streamlined more without ruinning the feel, fun, or flavor of the game I'm all for it in general. However that's a damn fine line to dance on, and I think there are only a few areas where Catalyst could make major improvements (Vehicle rules seem to be a general agreement) without losing some of that stuff we love about the game. The rest are just minor tweaks that will get hammered out as people play.

I seriously can't imagine how much more streamlining people could want. Compared to previous editions, SR4 is downright simplistic (at least as far as the core mechanics are involved). I don't know how much simpler people would want it.

You take your attribute, you take your skill, you add in modifiers that -- if used -- are quick to remember...and you sling a bunch of dice and look for 5+ on 'em. A ton of the "complication" was removed from the system when they got rid of variable TNs and went for dice pool mods, instead...how much more do people want/need? How much simpler does it have to be?

I have to generally agree. And I colored the 2, 3 and 4 pips on my black and dark blue speckled dice black, the 1 pip red and the 5 and 6 bright green. I just look for green and count them.

A GM screen is an invaluable tool, I would not run without one. Even if you don't buy a commercial one, take some cardboard them print out, cut, and tape the most common charts. I have learned "where" the key modifiers are on my screen and I have a pattern that I use for every test. Generally, it's Range -> Visibility -> Situational. I run my eyes quickly down the list of situational modifiers and call out all that apply. I've told my players that it is their responsibility to track their: Attributes, Skills, Equipment Modifiers, and Wound Modifiers. I instructed them to pre-calculate their DP with all "normal" positive modifiers that apply (like Smartlink) and write that number down on their sheet. From there, they adjust that number with Wound and the other modifiers I call out. It is also up to the player to do the final calculation. When I'm done I call out, "roll" and they roll and tell me the hits while I roll any Opposed roll (as necessary). It sounds like this:
PC: "I shoot goon 1."
Me: "SMG? Ok, range -1. Partial light -2. Firing from cover -2. Target will have cover. Roll."
PC: "5 hits"
Me: "You hit. Base damage and AP."
PC: "5P, AP -1"
Me: "7P damage, he's bleeding good and on the ground."

I have my laptop at the game sessions, and I've written a little program that does the common Combat calculations for me after I input all the "raw values." It also tracks PC Initiative values, rolls NPC Initiative for me, and sorts all of the scores and handles multiple IP's. If you don't have/don't want a computer at your session then I recommend a dry-erase whiteboard or just a piece of paper. Have a player track Initiative and IP's for you.

Mentioning GM screens...

Citizen Games used to make a 3-panel and a 4-panel GM Screen. What was wicked about it was that the front and back of each pannel was a sheet protector in a durable transparent vinyl. The thing was stiff and thick and heavy. It was the ultimate, reusable, customizable GM screen.

What didn't get mentioned was the OTHER awesome use it had, since you could write on it with grease pencils or wet-erase markers:

8 page character sheet book.

Yeah, think about that one.

I have two, but I wish I had bought more before they popped.

Anybody have any idea who might have the rights to the idea and/or where I can get another one or two?

No but I sure wish I did. That would also be awesome for maps...

I completely agree.

When the problem is just a time usage one I like to break out the ol' stop watch. I've found that if you can't explain combat actions in 10 seconds then you're not paying attention. Heck, a turn is only 3 seconds in game terms so I think an additional 7 seconds is generous! If player B gets skipped because they're playing with their mechanical pencil on player A's turn then they'll be more prepared next pass. Just make sure that you don't shoot them down if they have a legitimate question about a course of action. Most players will manage to finish their turn in around 5 seconds using this method.

If you are using really green players then you might want to make it 15 seconds.

Hammerdog Games makes The Worlds Greatest Screen (TWGS), which seems to be almost identical to what you are describing, if a bit pricey at $30:

TWGS at Hammerdog Games

Nice!! Thanks for the link Kerrang!

Nice!! Thanks for the link Kerrang!

I dont' have the book in front of me, but somewhere in the SR4 book there is a sidebar on eyeballing modifiers. I think that's good advice for a group that is just getting into SR and wants to get some experience in the setting without getting bogged down in calculating the exact number of dice to toss for every skill check.

Basically, it just says to figure out what the largest modifier is to the roll is, and apply that.

It may not be as consistant as crunching all the numbers, but it will get you playing the game, rather than referencing the rulebook during your sessions.

Keep in mind, though, as previous posters have mentioned, the only way that the math/modifiers will start to feel natural is with practice, so you may want to find a way to transition from eyeballing to the full modifiers incrimentally. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking for combat, start with just range and wound mods. From there start applying mods for visibility, recoil comp, etc. one at a time so that it doesn't get in the way of the action.

Just my own couple of cents.

BLESS YOU!!! I paid $25 for mine back when, and I consider $30 a more-than-fair price for the item. Trust me on this.

How many "primary" characters do you have? It folds in half and the panels fold in again. You put your most common two sheets on the outside, open it like a book for two more, and your "reference" sheets can go on the "inside". It's absolutely phenomenal. Thanks for posting the link for everybody. I'm going to order another pair.

Heh, I don't have any primary characters, I am always the GM in our regular group. The only game I am currently a player in (Hacktastic D20), well... my Dwarf Healer just went to the Great Ale Hall In The Sky in the last session, and I haven't had the opportunity to roll up a new one yet. I am looking at picking one of these up for GMing, however, as the specialized GM screens I have tend to not have all of the info I would like on them.

Seriously. I'm all over this thread. I came to this from fucking BESM. This is a huge jump up in complexity.

OK, there I'll give you a break then.

Drop me a PM.