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The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 27 2009, 11:37 PM) *
Just as they most likely wouldnt know if the team killed all of the guards on duty, as what corp is going to advertise that they just had all of their security at a facility killed? They would likely contact Lone Star about it, and try to cover it up as to not get the bad publicity.


What reporter worth their salt isn't going to grab this story and run with it? Especially considering how many dead people's families we're talking about. It really isn't something you can cover up.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Kitsu @ Sep 25 2009, 11:25 AM) *
Actually, my players have discovered that S&S rounds and stun spells are much more effective for the cost (nuyen and drain) than the lethal options. (I haven't let them find APDS source yet though)

The S&S's give a chance of incapacitation on top of stun, and work on vehicles, drones, and electronics, and the stun spells are lower drain for the same amount of incapacitation.


I've personally gravitated to using three types of ammunition. APDS, Explosive/EX Explosive (cost availability issue), and Stick-n-Shock.

My sharpshooting weapons use APDS.
My assault weapons use Explosive/EX Explosive.
My sidearms uses Stick-n-Shock.

That is what I consider my standard loadout, though I will swap SnS for the other ammo types if the mission dictates no or few casualties.

--

QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Sep 26 2009, 12:56 AM) *
Having a Shadowrunner caught corpus delicti by security taking off the security guards clothes. He will be getting the monicker 'necropheliac' and if uncaught the whole gang may be now known for their necrofaggotry.


I like that punishment.

--

QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 26 2009, 03:52 PM) *
There are basically three reasons to go after folks that hit your facilities if you know who they are.

1) Deterrence If you agressively pursue those who hurt you runners will likely at least think twice before acting against you, which makes finding those who will work agaisnt you both a smaller pool and more expensive to aquire.
2) Damage Control: If you'd spent a lot of money buildign a security and the runners break in or compormise that facility they may walk away with more then just their primary objective. They walk away with possible knowledge fo the facility or unconnected projects. As such if a corporation finds out who hit them they can almost be guaranteed to try and pull them back for a debrief. To find out how deep the damage goes
3) Counter move: If your enemy has assetts that they have used to hurt you and has done so successfully you are better off nuetralizing those assets so they don't do it again.


I'm going to disagree with your assessment, with my reasoning below.

--

QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 26 2009, 02:50 PM) *
Why, killing the runner team isn't gonna bring the corp back their million nuyen, in fact it's gonna cause even more money loss. Hunting down runners after they got away from your facility causes expenses and doesn't bring in any profit, so why on earth would a corp do that. After all the corps are all about the bottom line.


I can only think of a few reasons why a corp would go after a specific group of runners.

1. These runners have been constantly attacking the corp. Example: The runner team has hit Ares facilities 9 times out of their past 10 runs. Some Johnson or Johnsons want the corp to hurt. These runners have proven adept at hitting that corp's facilities, so there is a higher chance that they will be hired to hit that corp again. Taking the runners out is a precautionary act. Predicted/Continued Losses > Cost of Offing the Runners.

2. This one is a take off of #1, but different enough that it warrants its own definition. The corp got intel that those runners will be hitting their facility again and what it is they are after. This means as long as the cost of offing the runners or putting in more security is less than the cost of losing the object, the corp will do it. Value of Target > Cost of Increasing Security

3. Public Relations. While any one runner team is unlikely to cause a lot of damage to a corp's bottom line, a number of teams will eventually start to cause real, noticeable damages. So the corp will pick an easy runner team that they have a lot of data on and knock them off. It's not going to phase the pros at all, but a lot of the 2nd rate runners will get wet feet for awhile and avoid runs against that corp. It should cut back on the number of "milk runs" against the corp as Js are required to pay the 2nd tier and lower runners higher compensation so they won't be scared by the intimidation hit by the target corp. Chances are a group of PC runners isn't going to be targeted by a corp for this, since the PC runners will usually be considered, skill and equipment wise, in the top tier of runners. This also isn't personal, except that the group recently hit the corp's facility. Further, the corps wouldn't actively go after the top tier runners because they may just need them for something important. Those lower level runners aren't as high a threat, but they do eat away at the bottom line, so if a single hit against a 2nd rate runner team deters other 2nd rate runners from accepting jobs against them, all the better.

--

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Sep 26 2009, 03:26 PM) *
This stat is represented by three values... your Street Cred (a figure based upon your Karma awards), your Notoriety and the fional value which is know as Public Awareness...

There is no way that you can keep your self completely anonymous in the Shadows... otherwise you would never be hireable... your Street Cred, Notoriety and Public Awareness are you resume when it comes to getting hired for jobs... Your actions ARE KNOWN by those that need to know, and eventually, even those outside of the shadows know who you are whne you walk down the street... You cannot help this, it is the way that the Shadows work...


This is one of the problems I have with rep.

Street Cred is obviously a good stat, Notoriety is obvious a bad stat. Public Awareness however, is that good or bad? If the general public is aware of who you are, that acts a problem for more stealthy infiltrations, or even leg work where you need to get info. If people recognize you, then they will talk, and the corps will get wind that you're in town.

Here's the other thing that bugs me a bit about the qualities in Runner's Companion. In SR4, certain positive and negative qualities impact your starting notoriety. Blandness, First Impression, and Lucky all reduce notoriety by 1, while Addiction, Bad Luck, Combat Paralysis, Elf Poser, Gremlins, Incompetent, Infirm, Ork Poser, Scorched, Criminal SINer, Spirit Bane, Uncouth, and Uneducated all increase the character's notoriety by one. I would like to make a list of which Runner's Companion qualities affect notoriety, excluding Bad Rep (I would also say Bad Rep applies -after- initial notoriety is calculated). I don't recall any listing in Runner's Companion that indicates which ones add and subtract (I also don't know if the rule is still present in SR4A).

Side Note: Need to mention to GM that my character has 1 notoriety, and the character with Bad Rep now has 4 notoriety. GM if you're reading this, Desmond and Ret probably each need 1 more notoriety.

--

Our team currently has been having a lot of runs against a quasi-legal organization that probably is engaging in illegal activities that may or may not be supported by a AAA corp. Personally, my character has no moral qualms about killing anyone with a gun when we stage a hit against any location we suspect to be associated directly with the terrorist element. Needless to say, the AAA corp backing this group isn't likely to come down hunting us if we leave a lot of bodies. This kind of association would not be good for their PR.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 28 2009, 09:27 AM) *
Our team currently has been having a lot of runs against a quasi-legal organization that probably is engaging in illegal activities that may or may not be supported by a AAA corp. Personally, my character has no moral qualms about killing anyone with a gun when we stage a hit against any location we suspect to be associated directly with the terrorist element. Needless to say, the AAA corp backing this group isn't likely to come down hunting us if we leave a lot of bodies. This kind of association would not be good for their PR.


That sounds like a reasonable time -to- waste some folks, to me. Of course I'm known to be blood thirsty, and my character has volunteered to do things like wipe out facilities where corps are doing illegal (and involuntary) human-metahuman experimentation through shell companies, no charge.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 28 2009, 09:49 AM) *
That sounds like a reasonable time -to- waste some folks, to me. Of course I'm known to be blood thirsty, and my character has volunteered to do things like wipe out facilities where corps are doing illegal (and involuntary) human-metahuman experimentation through shell companies, no charge.


Actually, the bigger problem, in my mind, is that on the last mission we took one captive for interrogation, left 6-9 grunts alive (I think) out of around 24-27 that were present, and 2 labcoats that had been conducted viral manufacturing alive but KOed. The grunts, fortunately didn't ever see us, but the two KOed labcoats did see us, and may be able to ID us. Now, my character has the sense to cover his face, but the other guy in the basement, who knocked the KOed labcoats out, I do not know whether he had sense to cover his face. The three labcoats (we took one captive) all were unarmed, that's why we used KO techniques, but I had told the team to take them with us or kill them. These people were the ones obviously making the viral agent, so letting them run off and rejoin whoever they are working for may not have been the best of ideas. Johnson also didn't want the fuzz nabbing anyone their either, so unless the grunts ran off with the KOed labcoats, the fuzz probably picked them up, which is also bad. I would have shot and killed the 2 remaining labcoats (even though they were defenseless and women), but I had other matters to attend to.

What's done is done though. We're going to have to decide what to do with the 3rd labcoat we captured after we're done interrogating him. My current vote is for selling him to the flesh trade or letting him "sleep with the fishes".
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 28 2009, 10:36 AM) *
Actually, the bigger problem, in my mind, is that on the last mission we took one captive for interrogation, left 6-9 grunts alive (I think) out of around 24-27 that were present, and 2 labcoats that had been conducted viral manufacturing alive but KOed. The grunts, fortunately didn't ever see us, but the two KOed labcoats did see us, and may be able to ID us. Now, my character has the sense to cover his face, but the other guy in the basement, who knocked the KOed labcoats out, I do not know whether he had sense to cover his face. The three labcoats (we took one captive) all were unarmed, that's why we used KO techniques, but I had told the team to take them with us or kill them. These people were the ones obviously making the viral agent, so letting them run off and rejoin whoever they are working for may not have been the best of ideas. Johnson also didn't want the fuzz nabbing anyone their either, so unless the grunts ran off with the KOed labcoats, the fuzz probably picked them up, which is also bad. I would have shot and killed the 2 remaining labcoats (even though they were defenseless and women), but I had other matters to attend to.

What's done is done though. We're going to have to decide what to do with the 3rd labcoat we captured after we're done interrogating him. My current vote is for selling him to the flesh trade or letting him "sleep with the fishes".



I think one of the other players in my group said it best 'Anyone not using the multitude of disguise techniques available is a moron, and murder is not an acceptable solution to being lazy'
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 28 2009, 11:48 AM) *
I think one of the other players in my group said it best 'Anyone not using the multitude of disguise techniques available is a moron, and murder is not an acceptable solution to being lazy'


Quote stolen grinbig.gif
Krypter
If shadowrunners are continually looting and scrounging common stuff, their reputation will suffer. Just as if you saw professional mercenaries stealing cars. They're called punks for a reason. Most Johnsons wouldn't want to deal with low-class two-bit thugs.

There's this thing called dignity. Shadowrunners should have some. (unless you're intentionally running a gritty, street-level campaign)
Jaid
QUOTE (Krypter @ Sep 28 2009, 07:26 PM) *
If shadowrunners are continually looting and scrounging common stuff, their reputation will suffer. Just as if you saw professional mercenaries stealing cars. They're called punks for a reason. Most Johnsons wouldn't want to deal with low-class two-bit thugs.

There's this thing called dignity. Shadowrunners should have some. (unless you're intentionally running a gritty, street-level campaign)

of course, if the hacker is just hacking into a small fleet of cars to use in vehicular combat vs a convoy of some sort, imo it would be fine. it really depends entirely on the situation at hand.
LurkerOutThere
*Lifts his snifter of soy-brandy* "Oh yes i'm so concerned the paid criminals I hire for their skills at theft, assasination, electronic warfare, kidnapping, and the occasional act of general mayhem and terrorism shouldn't be engaging any off the cuff criminality. They exist only to do the crimes I pay them to do, furthermore from my comfortable womb-chair in my shadowy corporate headquarters I have an up to date assesment of the entire length and breadth of the illegal activities I've hired the agents to distance me from. After all if these criminals are succeeding and accomplishing my objectives that completely pales in comparison to the gross crime of theft. These deniable assets reflect upon me of course."

There are standards and ethics and then there is the necessary requirement of doublethink required to presume a J would give a care about what crimes his paid criminals are conducting outside the context fo the mission parameters.

QUOTE (Krypter @ Sep 28 2009, 07:26 PM) *
If shadowrunners are continually looting and scrounging common stuff, their reputation will suffer. Just as if you saw professional mercenaries stealing cars. They're called punks for a reason. Most Johnsons wouldn't want to deal with low-class two-bit thugs.

There's this thing called dignity. Shadowrunners should have some. (unless you're intentionally running a gritty, street-level campaign)

Angelone
Honestly I think taking extra widgets would be considered a good thing, or atleast not a bad thing. Think about it someone breaks into your facility and takes your Supertoaster 5000. They were obviously hired by someone to take that specifically. Someone breaks into your facility and takes a bunch of stuff it's harder to pinpoint their target or if they truly had one.

If only one thing is missing you can narrow your list of suspects. "Hey isn't McWaffle corp coming out with a Delux Toast 2000 soon? And weren't they going to release after us? Hmm..."

Just my take anyway.

Dakka Dakka
If this was the case a competent Johnson for McWaffle would mention something like this in the mission parameters.

In case of data "theft", the data needn't be removed from the computers and if the hacker is good he doesn't leave a trace of his passing. In that case stealing other stuff would just alert the security forces to the break-in and theft. That is of course if the runners have not alerted security to their physical presences.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Angelone @ Sep 29 2009, 04:56 AM) *
Honestly I think taking extra widgets would be considered a good thing, or atleast not a bad thing. Think about it someone breaks into your facility and takes your Supertoaster 5000. They were obviously hired by someone to take that specifically. Someone breaks into your facility and takes a bunch of stuff it's harder to pinpoint their target or if they truly had one.


Johnson's aren't known for being forthcoming about the intended purpose of a run. If you steal a bunch of junk, including the super-secret Supertoaster 5000, the corp may not know the Supertoaster 5000. That much is true. What if the purpose of the run is for the corp to know the Supertoaster 5000 was stolen? You're acting outside of the mission parameters the Johnson gave you.

So in the case of the Supertoaster 5000 prototype, why does Mr. J want it? Is it because his company want to replicate what's in the Supertoaster 5000? Is it because the Supertoaster 5000 is actually a weapon system that if public would be highly damaging to the corp developing it? Is it because Mr. J wants the corp to know their super secret Supertoaster 5000 really isn't a super secret?

I think it's one thing to loot people that "unfortunately" get in your way and need to be "dealt with". It's an entirely different thing to case the joint for loot to grab and sell on the black market.
LurkerOutThere
A lot of it is going to come down to individual taste and the way they run the world. For me the two unsaid but important expectations for runners are the following:

1) Unless Specifically stated otherwise you will cause no gross chaos or basically anything that would escalate things from breaking and entering/murder to acts of terrorism.
2) You will take steps to both minimize your exposure and minimize the enemies desire to come after you and you will hold our agreement int he strictest confidence you can.

Now yes some really really determined looters could violate 1 and 2 depending on how they went about it. But as i've said I feel that is all a Johnson could justifiably expect from shadowrunners without specificly including terms in the mission outline and possibly paying extra for.

Things i've offered cash or other incentives for or made a stipulation of the mission

No enemy survivors
No enemy casualties
Zero property damage/theft
Zero collateral damage (works best if the run is at a crowded place like a mall or a arcology)
Plant evidence framing (X) for the run..

Stuff like that. Anything else is people trying to plant their own morality on a game where at the very least the participants are thieves and scalawags

.
Orcus Blackweather
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 29 2009, 09:38 AM) *
A lot of it is going to come down to individual taste and the way they run the world. For me the two unsaid but important expectations for runners are the following:

1) Unless Specifically stated otherwise you will cause no gross chaos or basically anything that would escalate things from breaking and entering/murder to acts of terrorism.
2) You will take steps to both minimize your exposure and minimize the enemies desire to come after you and you will hold our agreement int he strictest confidence you can.

Now yes some really really determined looters could violate 1 and 2 depending on how they went about it. But as i've said I feel that is all a Johnson could justifiably expect from shadowrunners without specificly including terms in the mission outline and possibly paying extra for.

Things i've offered cash or other incentives for or made a stipulation of the mission

No enemy survivors
No enemy casualties
Zero property damage/theft
Zero collateral damage (works best if the run is at a crowded place like a mall or a arcology)
Plant evidence framing (X) for the run..

Stuff like that. Anything else is people trying to plant their own morality on a game where at the very least the participants are thieves and scalawags

.



All quite true. I believe that as a GM you should try to keep things sane, well as sane as a game with magic, spirits, and the matrix all together can be. For every action there will be a repercussion. Intelligent play will allow players to figure out what they will be and circumvent them to some degree, but excessive acts will eventually haunt the group. Will a johnson care that you stole the guards commlink? No of course not. Will he care if all of the security guards were killed and sold to Tamanous? Quite likely. Noone will have a clue that petty theft happened at all. Major acts will be impossible to hide. Reputation is a very amorphous characteristic. While I agree that the runners are mostly being stealthy, and noone will ever quite know all of the details, eventually major players will put 2 and 2 together. So there will not be any serious issues if your mage grabs the focus off of the enemy mage, or the hacker steals a bit of extra paydata, but major theft will be noted, and eventually connected to the PCs.
CanadianWolverine
Reading through some of this I also had another idea for a Runner team: hire a gang or some other 2nd rate Runner team to loot a place you just hit to cover up your crime and you can claim deniability to the Mr. J. Why not let another group take the blame for the looting? Mr. Jays does it all the time, yes? And it doesn't even have to be something elaborate, just like post on a well or lesser known two-bit criminal site anonymously that such and such a place is open to looting for the next x amount of time it takes for security reinforcements to arrive (just in case they got the anonymous message too) - in SR's dystopian future, there would be all kinds of people willing to go in and strip the place bare, right?
Sponge
Interestingly, I came across a (fluff) section in Runner's Companion which addresses this precise topic - there's a few paragraphs (and additional Jackpoint commentary) starting at the bottom of p27, titled "Be Smart and Don't be Greedy".

A relevant quote:

QUOTE (Hard Exit)
Killing guards or personnel is a good way to up the risk-reward
designation. It’s not good for a corp’s employee morale if they don’t
try to hunt down the scum who killed Bob-the-loveable-accountant.
Likewise, don’t take anything that isn’t part of the job. If you earn a
reputation for stealing extra during a run, word will spread. Don’t kill
guards if you don’t have to. Don’t destroy stuff if you don’t have to.


Deathmaster35
QUOTE (Sponge @ Sep 29 2009, 03:59 PM) *
Interestingly, I came across a (fluff) section in Runner's Companion which addresses this precise topic - there's a few paragraphs (and additional Jackpoint commentary) starting at the bottom of p27, titled "Be Smart and Don't be Greedy".

A relevant quote:


Correct, the corp you hit cares, the corp that hired you doesnt. Which is part of the reason you keep your runs secret.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 29 2009, 08:06 PM) *
Correct, the corp you hit cares, the corp that hired you doesnt. Which is part of the reason you keep your runs secret.



..You just kinda blot out any information that disagrees with you from your mind, doncha fella?

Even the -book-, the Actual Canon, says that doing things the way you're talking about isn't the way smart runners go about it.

And we've already talked about Rep, which point you appear to have ignored.
Orcus Blackweather
Come on how much fun can admitting you're wrong be? Everyone knows that there are no repercussions for murdering massive numbers of people, noone cares if you steal anything that is not nailed down, and what the hell If a runner wants to start grabbing anyone and everyone and drag them kicking and screaming to organ leggers, it is perfectly acceptable.

As well, we all know that shadowrunners are simply too canny to ever be tracked down by the corps, who of course have nothing but stupid mooks working for them, and who of course exist only to serve as our own private resource farm.

The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Orcus Blackweather @ Sep 30 2009, 02:35 AM) *
Come on how much fun can admitting you're wrong be? Everyone knows that there are no repercussions for murdering massive numbers of people, noone cares if you steal anything that is not nailed down, and what the hell If a runner wants to start grabbing anyone and everyone and drag them kicking and screaming to organ leggers, it is perfectly acceptable.

As well, we all know that shadowrunners are simply too canny to ever be tracked down by the corps, who of course have nothing but stupid mooks working for them, and who of course exist only to serve as our own private resource farm.




..I <3 you.

I just thought you should know that.
Angelone
Yes, because every Johnson in the world has a full rapsheeton you and knows every little thing you've done. Because runners are so well known that they can't just go somewhere else or get a new face or even just a new name. Everyone will automatically see through whatever disguse or other obfuscation you use. You should just give up and make a new character after every run because people know everything about you.

Sure that's an overexageration, but just barely past what some of you are saying. As for the canon post. Isn't it shadowtalk or one of those essays? One runner's opinion? Sure don't raze the place and salt the earth is smart, but oh no you've taken something extra or killed or even just roughed up a guard! The full weight of the corp will come crashing down on you!!! Or some guy who was said guards friend who has no idea who you are will track you down like some action movie hero and end you!!!!!!!

It's just silly. Yes actions should have consequences. They should be realistic however.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Angelone @ Sep 30 2009, 02:49 AM) *
Yes, because every Johnson in the world has a full rapsheeton you and knows every little thing you've done. Because runners are so well known that they can't just go somewhere else or get a new face or even just a new name. Everyone will automatically see through whatever disguse or other obfuscation you use. You should just give up and make a new character after every run because people know everything about you.

Sure that's an overexageration, but just barely past what some of you are saying. As for the canon post. Isn't it shadowtalk or one of those essays? One runner's opinion? Sure don't raze the place and salt the earth is smart, but oh no you've taken something extra or killed or even just roughed up a guard! The full weight of the corp will come crashing down on you!!! Or some guy who was said guards friend who has no idea who you are will track you down like some action movie hero and end you!!!!!!!

It's just silly. Yes actions should have consequences. They should be realistic however.



No, Dude, they're talking about whole sale slaughtering entire buildings of personnel and stripping them of their belongings without consequences, not petty theft or a guard here and there, which we disagree with.
JaronK
No, I'm pretty sure we're talking about killing anyone who may have seen you (unless you intended to be seen, such as when disguised as someone else) and taking anything valuable you happen upon along the way. In other words, being safe and efficient.

JaronK
3278
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 29 2009, 04:38 PM) *
A lot of it is going to come down to individual taste and the way they run the world.

Amen. A lot of people are talking about how it is, when they should be talking about how it is at my table. Here's how it is at my table:

The Use of Force policies in most Security settings - Military is another matter, and much more complex - precludes the use of lethal force until it is deemed absolutely necessary to preserve life or property. The desired process is identify, contain, neutralize, restrain, interrogate. It's not until the runners, say, start killing people, that the guards get out the hot clips. So it's in the runners' best interests to keep things non-lethal as long as they can. A trail of bodies is both immediately likely to produce a lethal response from the guards, and detrimental in the long-term, as Ares is likely to take "the loss of the prototype" less seriously than "the loss of the prototype...and the cold-blooded murder [and looting] of 21 people."

From the perspective of the employer, whoever that might be, I can tell you that, all things remaining equal, I'd hire the professionals over the body-looting murderers any day. You want people who are there to do a job for you, and any time whatsoever they are doing anything other than that job, they're increasing the risk to you and whoever is paying you. Increasing their time-on-site by nickle-and-dime raiding of dead guards' pockets, stealing materials outside the mission parameters, these just aren't the people I'd prefer to hire to do my crime for me.

That's just how it is at my table. That doesn't make anyone else's way of playing better or worse, and people should stop acting like it does.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (JaronK @ Sep 30 2009, 04:51 AM) *
No, I'm pretty sure we're talking about killing anyone who may have seen you (unless you intended to be seen, such as when disguised as someone else) and taking anything valuable you happen upon along the way. In other words, being safe and efficient.

JaronK


I've already expressed my opinion of doing runs with your real face showing, but thats just my opinion.


QUOTE (3278 @ Sep 30 2009, 05:30 AM) *
Amen. A lot of people are talking about how it is, when they should be talking about how it is at my table.



And I've said several times : Your Miliage May Vary. My objection is solely that some of the folks here seem to be saying you have to play one particular way in order to be considered a shadowrunner (Kill them all and loot the bodies!), and I object to that. Anything else is fluff and arguing styles and interpretation of canon, which can go on a while.

So basically: I agree with you, and I am long winded.

~TDG
Angelone
Another thing that bugs me is the view that just because you go nonlethal the guards will too. Maybe they will, but in my mind anyway they won't care what you just shot Jimbo with, just that you shot Jimbo and he went down. They aren't going to run over and examine him and then return fire. They are going to return fire first with whatever they have. Sure if Jimbo has a biomonitor that isn't squeeling flatline they might know but they most likely won't care about it.

Just my opinion.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Angelone @ Sep 30 2009, 07:32 AM) *
Another thing that bugs me is the view that just because you go nonlethal the guards will too. Maybe they will, but in my mind anyway they won't care what you just shot Jimbo with, just that you shot Jimbo and he went down. They aren't going to run over and examine him and then return fire. They are going to return fire first with whatever they have. Sure if Jimbo has a biomonitor that isn't squeeling flatline they might know but they most likely won't care about it.

Just my opinion.



smile.gif No one, to my knowledge, has said the guards wouldn't be doing their best to kill you if you get caught, especially if you shoot their buddies. The closest anyone has come is a talk about escalation of violence.

My entire argument is very simple:

You do not have to kill people to be a shadowrunner.

That is all.
Angelone
It's been brought up before. Both in books and on this board. To clarify my take on the matters is the guards don't care what you're shooting at them they will respond with lethal force unless sop states otherwise. Fights if they can't be avoided should be ended as quickly as possible.
CollateralDynamo
And (to bring this back on thread) once the fight has been ended as quickly as possible, you take the guards junk, wipe the RFID tags clean, and run off into the sunset before three minutes have passed and Lone Star comes breathing down your neck.
LurkerOutThere
Well actually one of the core concepts of the setting it is literally a world where the use of force model no longer applies as the corporations have extraterritoriality, which the game basically represents as the castle doctrine write large and applied to corporations. So the only thing holding them back from a lethal response every time is the bad PR it might bring and even that is questionable. Additionally depending on how dystopian the setting is at your table (first and second edition were very dystopian, future ones less so, a move I applaud) the company literally does care more about the loss of the the prototype then the guards assigned to protect it. Maybe not the researchers who worked on said prototype or some of the office drones who are well connected and the company is not expecting to have put in harms way. BUt the security guards? They are literally expected to die for the companies well being.

Not that wholesale murder is a good way to accomplish mission objectives as it does increase the likelyhood of unfavorable heat but i don't agree that "Dead Guards" > "Lost Prototype" in the corporate response balance sheet.

Finally there is some level of economics of scale. A Johnson hiring runners for a 3k a piece run has no right to put strictures ons aid runners behavior. Conversely a runner who jeapordizes a 40 thousand k a piece run to loot a few thousand nuyen worth of swag is an idiot.

Now the OP wanted some pretty good answers to deter his players from not prying up everything that was nailed down. I think the best way to do this is a security response. A shadowrunner team will never have full run of a facility save for those in all but the most remote of places. From the moment they are discovered there is a chance a large, well armed, well trained, and highly motivated security response is on it's way to back up the rent a cops. This tends to deter prying nexus out of the server rooms and parting out the bodies for spare ware. Amp up the paranoia and omnipressive survelance of shadowrun and it will help a lot.

QUOTE (3278 @ Sep 30 2009, 03:30 AM) *
Amen. A lot of people are talking about how it is, when they should be talking about how it is at my table. Here's how it is at my table:

The Use of Force policies in most Security settings - Military is another matter, and much more complex - precludes the use of lethal force until it is deemed absolutely necessary to preserve life or property. The desired process is identify, contain, neutralize, restrain, interrogate. It's not until the runners, say, start killing people, that the guards get out the hot clips. So it's in the runners' best interests to keep things non-lethal as long as they can. A trail of bodies is both immediately likely to produce a lethal response from the guards, and detrimental in the long-term, as Ares is likely to take "the loss of the prototype" less seriously than "the loss of the prototype...and the cold-blooded murder [and looting] of 21 people."

From the perspective of the employer, whoever that might be, I can tell you that, all things remaining equal, I'd hire the professionals over the body-looting murderers any day. You want people who are there to do a job for you, and any time whatsoever they are doing anything other than that job, they're increasing the risk to you and whoever is paying you. Increasing their time-on-site by nickle-and-dime raiding of dead guards' pockets, stealing materials outside the mission parameters, these just aren't the people I'd prefer to hire to do my crime for me.

That's just how it is at my table. That doesn't make anyone else's way of playing better or worse, and people should stop acting like it does.

JaronK
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 30 2009, 04:42 AM) *
I've already expressed my opinion of doing runs with your real face showing, but thats just my opinion.


Face showing has nothing to do with it. This is a world where mages can scan your astral signature after you've left, a single guard could call the home base and have an astral mage with a swarm of watcher spirits show up in less than a minute, thermal and ultrasound imaging could get a huge amount of data about you even through a mask, DNA can get far more information than today, and so on. You don't want any chance of anything like that happening, even when wearing a mask. So, take out the guard, then spend some time cleaning up. That's far better than assuming your mask was good enough and then finding out the guard was a groggy who scanned your astral signature and now has enough information to go after you.

JaronK
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (JaronK @ Sep 30 2009, 11:06 AM) *
Face showing has nothing to do with it. This is a world where mages can scan your astral signature after you've left, a single guard could call the home base and have an astral mage with a swarm of watcher spirits show up in less than a minute, thermal and ultrasound imaging could get a huge amount of data about you even through a mask, DNA can get far more information than today, and so on. You don't want any chance of anything like that happening, even when wearing a mask. So, take out the guard, then spend some time cleaning up. That's far better than assuming your mask was good enough and then finding out the guard was a groggy who scanned your astral signature and now has enough information to go after you.

JaronK


Darlin if you're going with the astral, thermal and ultrasound imaging your runners are already fragged and they just need to make sure they haven't made it worth the corps time to track them down. Any of that can be done by things/people the runners never even -see-. A couple of magi on astral patrol, some closed circuit camaras and sensors, and you're done. You're better off worrying about what you -can- change than those things, which is your face, and distinguishing marks/styles, and playing by the unspoken rules of the corporate chess game, After all, if you don't piss them off, these fraggers might want to hire you themselves.
Orcus Blackweather
QUOTE (JaronK @ Sep 30 2009, 09:06 AM) *
Face showing has nothing to do with it. This is a world where mages can scan your astral signature after you've left, a single guard could call the home base and have an astral mage with a swarm of watcher spirits show up in less than a minute, thermal and ultrasound imaging could get a huge amount of data about you even through a mask, DNA can get far more information than today, and so on. You don't want any chance of anything like that happening, even when wearing a mask. So, take out the guard, then spend some time cleaning up. That's far better than assuming your mask was good enough and then finding out the guard was a groggy who scanned your astral signature and now has enough information to go after you.

JaronK


Murder and violent acts leave traces for longer periods on the astral. No amount of murder will erase ultrasound imagery. The more fighting you do and the longer you linger "Cleaning Up" the more DNA you are likely to leave behind.

My group wear masks/disguises. Our hacker (me) goes into the system, and erases everything he can. Our weak link is magic, and murdering helpless people is not going to decrease that risk. We spend the least time possible, and avoid leaving too much evidence behind, but our greatest defense is not pissing off the corps we are making runs against to such a degree that they are willing to spend millions of nuyen.gif to find us.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Orcus Blackweather @ Sep 30 2009, 01:37 PM) *
Murder and violent acts leave traces for longer periods on the astral. No amount of murder will erase ultrasound imagery. The more fighting you do and the longer you linger "Cleaning Up" the more DNA you are likely to leave behind.

My group wear masks/disguises. Our hacker (me) goes into the system, and erases everything he can. Our weak link is magic, and murdering helpless people is not going to decrease that risk. We spend the least time possible, and avoid leaving too much evidence behind, but our greatest defense is not pissing off the corps we are making runs against to such a degree that they are willing to spend millions of nuyen.gif to find us.


Ain't there a spray can full of nano-bots that clean everything they can find from a surface? I think it is in the runner's companion.
Now, about magical tracing, yeah, get a wizard to clean your astral signatures.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Sep 30 2009, 01:33 PM) *
Ain't there a spray can full of nano-bots that clean everything they can find from a surface? I think it is in the runner's companion.
Now, about magical tracing, yeah, get a wizard to clean your astral signatures.


Its like when they dump bleach on it now. Yeah, you destroy the evidence its dumped on.. but -only- that evidence. You can leave forensic (magical and scientific) clues all -over- the place and not even notice.

Most folks are smart enough to clean up after themselves, its the things you didn't notice that get you, and you can't notice everything.

And no, this does not mean I think every crime ever always gets solved or that even the corps could do that every time, but there are things that increase the risk dramatically, wholesale slaughter and thievery are some of those things.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (JaronK @ Sep 30 2009, 02:51 AM) *
No, I'm pretty sure we're talking about killing anyone who may have seen you (unless you intended to be seen, such as when disguised as someone else) and taking anything valuable you happen upon along the way. In other words, being safe and efficient.

JaronK



This is an unrealistitic expectation (killing anyone that has happened to see you), and you are apparently missing the points that everyone is posting...

Anyway, Keep the Faith...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Sep 30 2009, 11:33 AM) *
Ain't there a spray can full of nano-bots that clean everything they can find from a surface? I think it is in the runner's companion.
Now, about magical tracing, yeah, get a wizard to clean your astral signatures.



As far as I know, astral signatures that are cleaned up must be cleaned up by the mage that left them...
Ravor
Not only that, but unless my memory is failing me, murder, ect, causes Background Count and not Astral Fingerprints and is of no use whatsoever in trying to track people down.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 30 2009, 06:28 PM) *
Not only that, but unless my memory is failing me, murder, ect, causes Background Count and not Astral Fingerprints and is of no use whatsoever in trying to track people down.



Correct... however if you used magic to do so, well then you created that Background Count AND left your astral fingerprints all over it... assuming you did not stay around long enough to cleanse the area of your signatures that is...
Ravor
All the more reason why a great Mage is wise enough to geek people with his trusty predator.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ravor @ Sep 30 2009, 06:32 PM) *
All the more reason why a great Mage is wise enough to geek people with his trusty predator.



Ditto.... I can't tell you how many times our Mage has left astral signatures just lying around... but he is finally learning...
Tachi
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 27 2009, 11:06 AM) *
Ah, but never forget, "It's the loot loot loot that makes the boys get up and shoot shoot shoot!"

Kipling?
Sir_Psycho
This thread has for some reason given me the mental image of shooting a sec-guard in the stomach, him doubling over, screaming, and then hearing "bada-bing!" and he vomits a stack of gold bullion onto the ground.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Sep 30 2009, 07:17 PM) *
This thread has for some reason given me the mental image of shooting a sec-guard in the stomach, him doubling over, screaming, and then hearing "bada-bing!" and he vomits a stack of gold bullion onto the ground.



Now that was entertaining... Indeed...


Keep the Faith
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Sep 30 2009, 10:17 PM) *
This thread has for some reason given me the mental image of shooting a sec-guard in the stomach, him doubling over, screaming, and then hearing "bada-bing!" and he vomits a stack of gold bullion onto the ground.



Yeah I'm wondering if its the basic difference between people used to playing video games/war games, and people more used to ah..whats the term, cooperative-collaborative story telling?

~TDG
JaronK
Doubtful. It's probably closer to the difference between people who play like it's The Italian Job (no killing) vs Ronin (as soon as things start to go south, kill the witnesses).

JaronK
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (JaronK @ Oct 1 2009, 09:18 AM) *
Doubtful. It's probably closer to the difference between people who play like it's The Italian Job (no killing) vs Ronin (as soon as things start to go south, kill the witnesses).

JaronK


I'll admit I've never seen either of those. Myself I like Ocean's Eleven, The Score, Leverage.. Various fantasy novels where the main character is a thief or assasin, mobster, con artists...

Really we can argue till the sun comes up over what the 'smart' thing to do on a 'run is, but that comes down to the GM's particular vision of how shadowrun works.

I will conceed, easily, that many people like their blood baths, and if you're having fun, hey have fun.

I just want people to stop telling me that preferring not to kill everyone and their brother is not canon, or is very very unusual, when clearly, from the responses and examples here, its not, its simply another way to go about it.

Orcus Blackweather
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Oct 1 2009, 07:36 AM) *
I'll admit I've never seen either of those. Myself I like Ocean's Eleven, The Score, Leverage.. Various fantasy novels where the main character is a thief or assasin, mobster, con artists...

Really we can argue till the sun comes up over what the 'smart' thing to do on a 'run is, but that comes down to the GM's particular vision of how shadowrun works.

I will conceed, easily, that many people like their blood baths, and if you're having fun, hey have fun.

I just want people to stop telling me that preferring not to kill everyone and their brother is not canon, or is very very unusual, when clearly, from the responses and examples here, its not, its simply another way to go about it.


Hmmm, canon... So like Sam Verner? How many times have I told myself, I'm gonna waste everyone and steal their stuff, just like Sam Verner!
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Orcus Blackweather @ Oct 1 2009, 10:51 AM) *
Hmmm, canon... So like Sam Verner? How many time I told myself, I'm gonna waste everyone and steal their stuff, just like Sam Verner!



I knew I liked you.
Ravor
Sure, I'll quit telling you that going nonlethal is stupid and pointless the moment that you stop telling me that killing guards is stupid and pointless because it is going to bring down the fury of the Gods upon my head.

Yes, that was the "generic you" and not the "you, you".


*EDIT*

And for the record, I've been playing RPGs a hell of alot longer than I've been playing video games.
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