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LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Sep 24 2009, 09:58 PM) *
If you're looking for a decent way to scare your player off of the 'loot all the cars' mentality, well, drop him a surprise next time. Is he awakened? If not, good. The setup goes something like this.
Mage: 'Well, I've parked my nice sedan in a bad part of town, but I neeed to be here to pick up some important things. It shouldn't be too long, but just in case... Here, fire spirit, watch this car. Warn anyone who approaches it, and fry them if they touch it.' And that's the car your thief just tried to steal.

Another way to curb this is to heavily enforce the availability and cost adjustment tables. Also contact-fencing(sr4a 287). Twenty percent each for stolen and used, and under investigation. "Hi, on-star? My car got stolen, can you look into it?" That kind of thing. If you enforce the idea that shadowrunning pays rather well compared to the alternatives, especially when you figure in time and effort, most players will get the drift, if you're trying to curb 'steal everything that isn't nailed down' behavior.



The problem is that devotes more playing time and more attention to the character the GM already has a problem with his car stealing habit. My solution is actually a bit more simple. "You spend a few hours driving around but none of your normal chop shop contacts take the car.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 24 2009, 09:18 PM) *
That is one type of job... and that would probably be a rare type, where a johnson just needs a copy of something a rival corp is working on. I have been playing shadow run off and on for years with multiple GMs and only had maybe 1 or 2 runs where the point was to not have any evidence a run was done at the target.

As for bodies, if you notice there are far far more items in the game centered around killing than not killing. For the most part the more bodies the better when you are targeting a corp. If there are a lot of deaths from security that weakens the overall corp, afterall who wants to take up a security job where the position is open because the last crew was killed?
Corps probably wouldnt normally hire runners to just go waste security and leave, as that would encourge their rivals to do the same to them, but when there is another target at hand I dont think a johnson really cares if you kill every security guard in the place if you meet the mission objective.


The games I've been in, it would be considered incredibly sloppy to leave a bunch of corpses laying around. Not to mention unnecessary, between the super squirt, stick n shocks, shocking gloves, shocking grasp, unarmed combat, and stunballs, if you're good enough, you don't have to go lethal, unless its actually called for. Hell just sneaking past the guards rather than bulldozing through them is often an option.

I know I wouldn't want to hire a group of runners known for a lot of collateral damage unless the collateral damage was the actual point of the thing.

And yes, most of the work we do is in a 'we were never there' way.

Despite being LA runners.

QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 24 2009, 09:26 PM) *
Wetwork is just one aspect of doing a job to kill someone. If you are sent on an extraction run you will probably have to kill people to get the target out, that just comes with the job. Waiting for security to drop from getting hit with narcoject is just a liability, it leaves you and your team open to return fire.
If you are sent on an extraction, a theft, a demolition, a sabotage or a distraction run the johnson probably expects you to kill a few people and the runners should expect it as well... you are being paid to do something that will involve the death or others.


That sounds like a very sloppy extraction to me. And check your rules on Narcoject + dmso, its not as long as you think. Killing people while lifting property or sabotaging -definitely- sounds sloppy, thats a good way to get caught, and there are plenty of ways to make a distraction without killing people. My group does it all the time. "Demolitions" probably needs death, 'sending a message' probably needs death 'these drekkers killed my baby girl, please kill them for me' definitely needs death.

Just because you like to play your game one way does doesn't mean thats the only way to do it.
Twilights_Herald
QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 24 2009, 09:18 PM) *
That is one type of job... and that would probably be a rare type, where a johnson just needs a copy of something a rival corp is working on. I have been playing shadow run off and on for years with multiple GMs and only had maybe 1 or 2 runs where the point was to not have any evidence a run was done at the target.

As for bodies, if you notice there are far far more items in the game centered around killing than not killing. For the most part the more bodies the better when you are targeting a corp. If there are a lot of deaths from security that weakens the overall corp, afterall who wants to take up a security job where the position is open because the last crew was killed?
Corps probably wouldnt normally hire runners to just go waste security and leave, as that would encourge their rivals to do the same to them, but when there is another target at hand I dont think a johnson really cares if you kill every security guard in the place if you meet the mission objective.



Dragon Girl already touched on this, but this is highly un-runner like behavior in 99% of cases. Runners are not thugs. Nor are they murderers, thieves, or low-grade scum. They are professionals doing a job.

Let's examine this carefully. You assert that:

1. The Johnson wants the other corp weakened as much as possible.
2. The more bodies, the better.

Let's examine these assertions.

1. The Johnson wants the other corp weakened as much as possible. This could not be further from the truth. While these situations have been known to come up, they never end well for anyone involved. Scorched Earth tactics in the shadows led, ultimately, to the fall of Fuchi, the Novatech IPO, and millions of corporate citizens killed on both sides when things escalated out of control. Your employer strictly wants the mission objectives completed. While he doesn't much care what else has to get destroyed in the process, too much wanton destruction doesn't help matters.

2. The more bodies, the better. I really have to wonder what your logic here is. A person is an asset to their corporation. Sure, there's millions of other rent-a-cops to replace the ones you shot, but each one represents an investment in time and money that the corporation can't afford to simply ignore. As a Shadowrunner, you make your living by doing two things. One, getting the job done. Two, making sure it's not worth the time and effort for anyone to follow up on your antics. Stealing a prototype for another corp to study can often be written off as 'the cost of doing business' in the 2070s. After all, you probably did it to the other guy. Hell, maybe you stole it from the other guy in the first place. Furthermore, if the job was done with a minimum of fuss, while the corp could probably find you, by the time they do the asset is no longer in your possession and they're better off just hiring you to steal it back than trying to extract the costs from your hide.

Destroyed/killed assets, on the other hand, invite retribution. After all, there's no replacing it, and you didn't have to kill them. The only thing for it is to find the runners and make a proper example out of you. Plus, of course, word gets around that there's a new team in town who is going to be making things harder for everybody, since corp security all around is going to be massively beefed up to deal with the jokers. Other runner teams would likely come down, hard, on you just to make sure you don't screw things up for everyone.

If you behaved like this in any of my games, your character would be hung out to dry by the end of session 2, and probably dead by session 4.
Karoline
Hehe....

"Five billion nuyen.gif project only months away from completion? No problem, that's business. A dead rent-a-cop? NOOOOO!!! GET THOSE BASTARDS!!"
Twilights_Herald
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 25 2009, 06:01 AM) *
Hehe....

"Five billion nuyen.gif project only months away from completion? No problem, that's business. A dead rent-a-cop? NOOOOO!!! GET THOSE BASTARDS!!"


Odd as it sounds, yes. Because this time it may have just been low-level security that got wiped. Next time they might end up killing off a project team worth trillions in revenue over the course of their entire lifetimes. The runners prove themselves too big a risk to fuck around with.

Edit: I suppose I should clarify that this isn't necessarily about a few dead security guards now and then. That's also part of the cost of doing business. This is about flagrant disregard for metahuman life and wanton destruction of property beyond the parameters of the job set out. If you get caught and have to lay a guard out before he can call in his buddies, stuff the body in a closet somewhere and that's that. It's the 'go in shooting and make sure nothing's left alive' attitude that would get you into trouble.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 25 2009, 01:08 AM) *
And check your rules on Narcoject + dmso, its not as long as you think.


End of round is not soon enough, not when you compare it to the potency of stick-n-shock.
nezumi
I'm fine with my party looting. They do not, however, generally loot, because I enforce the following rules...

1) It takes time to remove this stuff, especially cyberware. Anywhere not in the barrens and police will arrive. I very nearly lost two PCs because they spent so long looting, the police got the jump on them. Enforce that, and sooner or later, it'll catch up with your players. Meanwhile, the barrens are not empty. There are people there. If they cleaned out a gang hide-out, how long will it be before another group of gangers who were out buying beer return, realize something is up, sneak up and toss in a few frags? Or the sound of gunfire attracts a neighboring gang, who is hoping to catch their enemy with his pants down, but are just as happy to secure the loot for themselves? The players are taking advantage of the world being static. It isn't static. People hear gunshots and report. People react. People walk in to the wrong place at the wrong time. Your PCs spending too long in enemy territory is ALWAYS a vulnerability.

2) PCs need to haul this. One PC actually converted his trunk to a freezer for 1 body (or parts), but he'll have trouble carrying any more (and they smell and leak all over the upholstry). A lot of this stuff is very bulky. A lot of it is also worthless. A crate full of coffee mugs? Go for it, buddy.

3) PCs need to store this stuff. I doubt they live in a warehouse. They need somewhere to stash their pile of 20 AKs, 40 predators, 30 armored vests, etc. That takes money.

4) This gear is probably hot. If they stole it off someone in the barrens, it was likely used in another crime. If they stole it from someone with a SIN, it's now evidence of a murder. If Lone Star ever finds the stash, it's a giant pile of evidence. They'll make SURE they catch those runners. Make sure the runners are aware of this huge risk.

5) It doesn't sell for much. Gear will sell for 5-15% of the book price. I made up rules for selling for more, but it takes more time and requires contacts (one PC is a fixer). They sell about 1/10th of their stock every month for 15-20% of the retail price. It's a thousand more here and there for all their risk and work. Not a huge advantage.


My PCs do loot, if they have the time, and I'm okay with that. 70% of it is gear they intend to use in the future. Backup guns and all that. 30% is high-value stuff to be sold. Their paychecks (and debts) are too big for $200 extra from an Ares Pred to make much difference, so they don't really stress about it.
Faradon
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 24 2009, 11:10 PM) *
No, thats what the stick&shcok rounds and stun balls are for, no need to kill anyone when you can stun them much easier.
It's very unprofessional to kill the whole security detail when you extract someone, unless thats what your specifically being payed to do.


I'm right with you on this one. When you go in and start murdering people... some of their friends, families, employers, etc. are gonna want some payback. I think someone suggested in this thread or another one having "old army buddies" and such take up the banner to exact revenge on the team who killed Joe the security guard, father of five and scoutmaster. Using non-lethal methods whenever possible is always preferable so that the incentive is not as high to track down the team and murder them. I always like to keep a low profile whenever possible... especially when dealing with the big boys.
Kitsu
Actually, my players have discovered that S&S rounds and stun spells are much more effective for the cost (nuyen and drain) than the lethal options. (I haven't let them find APDS source yet though)

The S&S's give a chance of incapacitation on top of stun, and work on vehicles, drones, and electronics, and the stun spells are lower drain for the same amount of incapacitation.

And heck, if you've got them stunned, you can always walk up and pay the insurance afterward, if you have to.

Blade
What I like to do is have the K.O character roll for their healing test as soon as they're down, then consider that as soon as one stun damage box is healed up, they wake up. This can lead to K.O guards waking up and raising the alarm if they were not restrained.
I also consider that gel/SnS/etc. are not "non-lethal" but "less than lethal": a gel round (or a whole lot of them) can still kill, and tasers incident show that SnS might kill people too.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 25 2009, 11:31 AM) *
What I like to do is have the K.O character roll for their healing test as soon as they're down, then consider that as soon as one stun damage box is healed up, they wake up. This can lead to K.O guards waking up and raising the alarm if they were not restrained.
I also consider that gel/SnS/etc. are not "non-lethal" but "less than lethal": a gel round (or a whole lot of them) can still kill, and tasers incident show that SnS might kill people too.


Stun damage overflows onto the physical track. So SnS can kill, it just takes a lot more rounds than lethal ammunition.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 25 2009, 05:31 PM) *
What I like to do is have the K.O character roll for their healing test as soon as they're down, then consider that as soon as one stun damage box is healed up, they wake up. This can lead to K.O guards waking up and raising the alarm if they were not restrained.
This however contradicts RAW and you should tell your players. Normally they can roll after an hour, and yes if they recover one Box they are awake again.
QUOTE (Blade @ Sep 25 2009, 05:31 PM) *
I also consider that gel/SnS/etc. are not "non-lethal" but "less than lethal": a gel round (or a whole lot of them) can still kill, and tasers incident show that SnS might kill people too.
This is RAW. Stun Damage always overflows into Physical.
Blade
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Sep 25 2009, 05:37 PM) *
This however contradicts RAW and you shopuld tell your players. Normally they can roll after an hour, and yes if they recover one Box they are awake again.
This is RAW. Stun Damage always overflows into Physical.


Yeah I know RAW. But there's a difference between knowing it and applying it. wink.gif
... And my players are aware that I'm not always RAW and that "realism" and common sense come first (for example that people don't necessarily stay unconscious for one whole hour everytime they're knocked-out).

As for stun overflowing into physical, I also apply "house-rules" things such as character glitching their resistance tests leading to stun damage being upscaled to physical which, in my opinion, is a better way to simulate the tazer accident.
JaronK
My current group includes a Vodoo Houdin and a Medic with a full clinic, plus a mage who can cast F6 Fashion (3rd ed). We regularly grab nearly every body, throw them in the van, use Fashion to change the look of any armor (and make security armor fit us), strip out the cyberware, remove identifying marks, and then either burn or raise the bodies. No sense leaving more evidence at the scene, after all... and waste not want not!

JaronK
Orcus Blackweather
One problem our group has had in the past (and likely will again in the future). Narcojet can be more lethal than a regular round. I fire a heavy pistol 5p with capsule becomes 5s. I have critical success, and stage up to 10p, and target gets few or no damage soak successes. The target then has to soak 10s from the narcojet, and cascades damage to physical. This is especially bad if the target took previous damage. We have had a number of accidental fatalities from this. It has been imagined that the police are profiling us as serial killers. For some reason, critical success only happens when it is least wanted wink.gif.
Kitsu
QUOTE (Orcus Blackweather @ Sep 25 2009, 12:20 PM) *
One problem our group has had in the past (and likely will again in the future). Narcojet can be more lethal than a regular round. I fire a heavy pistol 5p with capsule becomes 5s. I have critical success, and stage up to 10p, and target gets few or no damage soak successes. The target then has to soak 10s from the narcojet, and cascades damage to physical. This is especially bad if the target took previous damage. We have had a number of accidental fatalities from this. It has been imagined that the police are profiling us as serial killers. For some reason, critical success only happens when it is least wanted wink.gif.


This is true, but any NPC "in the business" would recognize the attempt at less-lethal combat, and temper their need for revenge at accidental stun kills.
Karoline
QUOTE (Orcus Blackweather @ Sep 25 2009, 11:20 AM) *
For some reason, critical success only happens when it is least wanted wink.gif.


Good old Murphy smile.gif

I remember when I first realized that a light pistol with SnS rounds was basically as effective as an assault rifle... Good times.
Screaming Eagle
QUOTE (Orcus Blackweather @ Sep 25 2009, 11:20 AM) *
One problem our group has had in the past (and likely will again in the future). Narcojet can be more lethal than a regular round. I fire a heavy pistol 5p with capsule becomes 5s. I have critical success, and stage up to 10p, and target gets few or no damage soak successes. The target then has to soak 10s from the narcojet, and cascades damage to physical. This is especially bad if the target took previous damage. We have had a number of accidental fatalities from this. It has been imagined that the police are profiling us as serial killers. For some reason, critical success only happens when it is least wanted wink.gif.

Use a crappier gun, much crappier. A hold out or something.

I can see the issue but you really should not be generating many kills this way unless the rules are being read quite literally - you knocked him out with a capsule doing sigifigant bruising and impact damage and then tranqed him pretty damn hard. Hes not bleeding out and has not taken an overdose of the drug - I'd be prone to ignore (and argue for the ignoring) the "bleeding out" rules in this case.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 25 2009, 08:01 AM) *
Hehe....

"Five billion nuyen.gif project only months away from completion? No problem, that's business. A dead rent-a-cop? NOOOOO!!! GET THOSE BASTARDS!!"


Of course it goes like this. Imagine the heart-broken chief of security having to call all the wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, parents of the dead sec-corps...
Or, as is said in "Austin Powers", no one thinks about the thugs' families... cyber.gif
Twilights_Herald
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Sep 25 2009, 01:29 PM) *
Of course it goes like this. Imagine the heart-broken chief of security having to call all the wives, girlfriends, boyfriends, parents of the dead sec-corps...
Or, as is said in "Austin Powers", no one thinks about the thugs' families... cyber.gif


...I had forgotten for a minute that in many cities the rent-a-cops and the real cops are owned by the same company. Yeah, killing a cop, even when they're on 'private property' duty, is usually a bad way to start the week.
Screaming Eagle
Keep in mind that on top of this they have an internal image to maintain with their employees - they are an employer the Cares (especially Aztecnology, they have better uses for the BLOOD!). The responce to corperate espinoge is an internal security audit and shake down. The responce to 15+ homocides of people who were on the clock (often working after hours) had better be more visable and active or it shatters morale. Sure no one was close with Jim the Night Security guard (and his 12 night shift co-workers) but he smiled and liked his job and now he's dead.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Here is a good reason why the corps would like that runners don't kill their employees MOST of the time.
It is all about money. If all your security is insured and you end up paying their family and have to star paying more money to hire security because no one wants to work on minimum wage knowing that can be killed any time. Well, you better go after those runners who FUBAR your facility.
JaronK
At the same time, if you're caught you're caught. If you gave them a way to find you, they'll find you. And if you've just screwed people out of millions, they're going to kill you or jail you anyway... so it's better not to leave witnesses. Our group kills anyone who's seen us in action, no questions.

JaronK
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (JaronK @ Sep 25 2009, 04:10 PM) *
At the same time, if you're caught you're caught. If you gave them a way to find you, they'll find you. And if you've just screwed people out of millions, they're going to kill you or jail you anyway... so it's better not to leave witnesses. Our group kills anyone who's seen us in action, no questions.

JaronK



Not so much a problem in LA runs where the runners -expect- to be seen and have already taken precautions that are pretty elaborate involving that. My first thoughts, because the games I've been in have all been LA were: .. why weren't they taking precautions about people seeing what they really look like to begin with? There are -all sorts- of ways to disguise oneself, and if all else fails.. masks, hoods, scarf half over the face.

My phys adept is terribly fanatical about it, she never uses her real face in public, she only uses certain faces for runs, she shaves everything but her eyebrows to avoid trace evidence, and keeps every inch of skin except her face covered at all times.

And thats before the chameleon suit, those precautions are taken on the basis that someone might be able to see through her chameleon suit's tech somehow, usually shes not seen at all, both because of stealth tech, and just plain good planning and a hacker in the cameras..
Twilights_Herald
QUOTE (JaronK @ Sep 25 2009, 05:10 PM) *
At the same time, if you're caught you're caught. If you gave them a way to find you, they'll find you. And if you've just screwed people out of millions, they're going to kill you or jail you anyway... so it's better not to leave witnesses. Our group kills anyone who's seen us in action, no questions.

JaronK


Anthropomorphizing the corporation? That's a good way to get yourself dead. Here's the funny thing, you haven't screwed 'people' out of millions. If you haven't gone for maximum carnage, you may have screwed site security out of their bonuses this year. The corporation has lost quite a bit more, but it does not have any feelings. The corp, whether it be Ares, Horizon, Aztechnology, or some lowly AA or A you've never heard of, is little more than a legal and social fiction. Any pretense of revenge goes flying out the window, because any person who might want to get revenge isn't going to be allowed the resources to attain it.

Instead, the decision of whether to make an example of you falls to the same division that deals with shadowrunners in the first place. This division goes by a different name at each company, and fits in somewhere different in the hierarchy, but for the sake of argument we'll call it Black Ops.

Why would it fall to Black Ops and not Security/Law Enforcement to make this decision? Because, often, to get to you they're going to have to break the law and cross 'international' borders. That means that, once you're off company property, they can't officially come after you at all. So if they're going to do it, it has to be with deniable assets. Either company men or true shadowrunners. So at the end of the day, the guy in charge of making that decision has good reasons to leave you alive (if you're good enough to get away, you're good enough to hire to MAKE millions another day).

That said, this is the default position. It makes a number of assumptions about the nature of the job, and there are several other factors which might swing it one direction or the other.

Taking anything that's not strictly related to the mission goals. If you're hired to steal one prototype from a secret weapons lab, leave everything else alone. It's not likely to take them long to figure out what your Johnson was really after. Same thing with paydata or, really, just about anything. You can probably get away with restocking on ammunition from dead/disabled security guards, provided you throw any excess out to avoid the RFID tracking problem. But the thing is, if you steal anything else, you don't have an easy way to get rid of it. In the case of what you've been hired to do, either the damage is already done once you've left the scene, or it will be within a few hours once you make the handoff to Mr. J. That's the window they have to find you, in the hopes of getting their stuff back. You don't know who hired you, you have no way to get in touch with them, and the corp you just hit knows this. It would be pointless to bring you down after that. But if you've gone on an excess crime spree inside their secret lab, you've just about guaranteed you will have something that belongs to them for several days. This lengthens the window of opportunity to cut their losses, and it gives Black Ops a rumor trail to follow.when you try to hock the stuff. This is why looting the bodies is a bad idea.

Excessive carnage. The more damage you cause in the process of getting the job done, the less you're worth. Now, this isn't going to come around and get you right away. The retribution for this comes later, as your team slowly gets crossed off the job lists of every player in town. You're already causing a fair amount of damage to the bottom line, but inflicting several times what your employer stands to make on the job reflects poorly on your boss. You can get away with this now and again, but doing it too frequently means that, in the corporate world, hiring you is not just stealing the other corp's stuff, it's sending a message of 'now, it's personal'. And as I've stated before, that kind of vendetta always ends badly for every company that gets pulled into it. So they're not going to hire you.

In the end, it's a choice. "No witnesses" is a viable way to approach it, and it may leave fewer people behind who will make it personal. But when they do they will be willing to expend a lot more of their time and energy on bringing you down. Disabling security guards leaves a bit more of a trail, but the people left behind only have injured pride to deal with. They aren't likely to start spending their weekends trolling 'runner bars with a dynamite vest looking to blow you up in retribution.
JaronK
QUOTE (Twilights_Herald @ Sep 25 2009, 07:33 PM) *
Anthropomorphizing the corporation? That's a good way to get yourself dead. Here's the funny thing, you haven't screwed 'people' out of millions. If you haven't gone for maximum carnage, you may have screwed site security out of their bonuses this year. The corporation has lost quite a bit more, but it does not have any feelings. The corp, whether it be Ares, Horizon, Aztechnology, or some lowly AA or A you've never heard of, is little more than a legal and social fiction. Any pretense of revenge goes flying out the window, because any person who might want to get revenge isn't going to be allowed the resources to attain it.


Revenge isn't the word. The question is whether the corporation needs to make an example of those who screw it over so as to prevent future attacks via reputation. It's an entirely logical decision. With that said, some bosses take things like that personally. None the less, I assume that if they have the capability to track down the team, they will. Is that always the case? No... but it's better to play with that assumption than to trust that they'll ignore an opportunity.

QUOTE
Taking anything that's not strictly related to the mission goals. If you're hired to steal one prototype from a secret weapons lab, leave everything else alone. It's not likely to take them long to figure out what your Johnson was really after. Same thing with paydata or, really, just about anything.


Which might lead them to the Johnson, which in turn might lead to the team. Isn't it better to leave the enemy having no idea what hit them or why? Last time we hit a drug running operation, the mission was to implant nanites into the drugs. So we did that... but since we were intercepting a truck near the Redmond Barrens, we also stole the radio and computer gear from the truck that we hit. Result? The drug runners thought a go gang had stolen parts off their truck. As such, they had no idea about the nanites. Chaos and confusion can be allies if you work with them.

QUOTE
You can probably get away with restocking on ammunition from dead/disabled security guards, provided you throw any excess out to avoid the RFID tracking problem. But the thing is, if you steal anything else, you don't have an easy way to get rid of it.


Which is why our team includes a medic with full clinic and a mage who can fashion clothing. We can wipe any tracing information off what we get, then analyze it in our field lab, then use it ourselves. No trail to follow that way... we tell contacts NOTHING about what we get. If we do get something we want to sell, it's getting buried (literally, to avoid astral location) and dug up a year later.

So yeah, being efficient and looting everything can be extremely valuable. Killing all witnesses (then cleaning up astral signatures, changing gun barrels, etc) and taking what we want just leaves the enemy uncertain as to why they were hit... and increases our payout. Heck, the DM stopped trying to send Cyberzombies after us after the first time we stripped it for parts (it was a scary SOB but it wasn't able to handle too many high force Stunbolts). Sure, some people want us dead, but we operate under the assumption that everyone wants us dead anyway, and behave accordingly... ESPECIALLY when trying to move high end loot that we can't use.

JaronK
Deathmaster35
QUOTE (Twilights_Herald @ Sep 25 2009, 07:33 PM) *
Excessive carnage. The more damage you cause in the process of getting the job done, the less you're worth. Now, this isn't going to come around and get you right away. The retribution for this comes later, as your team slowly gets crossed off the job lists of every player in town. You're already causing a fair amount of damage to the bottom line, but inflicting several times what your employer stands to make on the job reflects poorly on your boss. You can get away with this now and again, but doing it too frequently means that, in the corporate world, hiring you is not just stealing the other corp's stuff, it's sending a message of 'now, it's personal'. And as I've stated before, that kind of vendetta always ends badly for every company that gets pulled into it. So they're not going to hire you.

Ok, here is something you are not taking into account. If someone other than the johnson knows you did the job, you failed as a shadow runner. Runners that can be pinned to jobs are the ones that dont live long. You should not be leaving anything to pin you to as having done a job, if you do the corp you hit is going to find you, request you for a job and then your dead. Shadowrunners cost corps millions on successful run (far more than the lives of a few dozen security) and if they know you did the run, you are as good as dead.
The only way you are going to get crossed off of any job list is if people know you are the ones doing it, and if they do, getting crossed of a job list should be the least of your worries.
An individual johnson might not hire you again if he doesnt like your style, but he is far more likely to pass you up if you left evidence that YOU were the runners that did the job as then he has to worry about you getting tracked down and the run getting linked back to him.

Corps do revenge runs against other corps they know sent runs on them, if you have done your job they shouldnt be looking for you specifically as there should be nothing linking the run to you and there should only be suspision as to the corp that sent the runners. Runners are hired by corps to hit other corps, no corp should be taking what any specific runner does as personal against them as it doesnt make sense from a corporate standpoint. It would be like you being mad at the gun you were shot with instead of the person that pulled the trigger. The tool is just a tool, the user of that tool is what matters.

QUOTE (Twilights_Herald @ Sep 25 2009, 07:33 PM) *
In the end, it's a choice. "No witnesses" is a viable way to approach it, and it may leave fewer people behind who will make it personal. But when they do they will be willing to expend a lot more of their time and energy on bringing you down. Disabling security guards leaves a bit more of a trail, but the people left behind only have injured pride to deal with. They aren't likely to start spending their weekends trolling 'runner bars with a dynamite vest looking to blow you up in retribution.

Disabling security guards leaves a lot more people to come hunt you down. The people getting fired for not being able to perform their job that know you use non-lethal force I think are a lot more likely to come try to kill you then the guys that you almost killed but somehow lived, as they know you are more than willing to kill them.
And only people with distinctive style or those that cant do their job need to worry anyways, as there shouldnt be anything linking you to the job.
Karoline
QUOTE (Twilights_Herald @ Sep 25 2009, 07:33 PM) *
You're already causing a fair amount of damage to the bottom line, but inflicting several times what your employer stands to make on the job reflects poorly on your boss.


I'd imagine that you could wipe out every single person in a facility and still generally not inflict even a fraction of what your employer stands to make. If you take down an entire building you might come close.

I really don't think you can ever factor in the cost of human lives (To the corp, who can certainly put a nuyen.gif sign on life) compared to the cost of losing that prototype/paydata/whatever. Even in cases of kidnap/wetwork, I'd imagine the person kidnapped/killed is worth hundreds or even thousands of rent-a-cops to the corp.

Also, you keep talking about how they will get crossed off of hire lists, or how the corp attacked will figure "Well gee, we should hire them." But the whole problem is that no one (Except the hiring J) knows which team did all that slaughter, or pulled off that perfect job. And generally I figure the hiring J doesn't really care too much how much collateral damage is caused, so long as the mission is accomplished (And may well throw in a bonus for costing the opposing corp a bit of extra nuyen.gif) The hiring J is going to be minimally concerned with getting into a grudge match with the opposing corp, because no one knows who the J is, no one knows who he works for. At best they can see who ends up putting that stolen stuff to use, but it may have been stolen again by then, or just be chance that someone else came up with something similar, and the corp wouldn't act on that.

Now, all that said, I still figure there is something to be said for not going on mass killing sprees every time you set foot on corp ground.
The Dragon Girl
I have to disagree guys. Its about Rep. If you have a Rep for clean professional runs with minimal collateral damage, then thats what you'll be hired to do.

If you have a Rep for being a small demolitions force who kill easily, well thats what you'll be hired for.


Also theres this weird notion you guys keep bringing up that just because someone has no problem stealing things they wouldn't have a problem killing. Uhm.. What? Just because you're willing to do one kind of crime doesn't mean you're willing to do another. Every single runner draws their line in a different place.

Also: No one is doing it wrong. Geeze. Its a game folks, one guy thinks it makes sense for corps to act one way, one guy thinks it makes sense for them to act another. Your Mileage May Vary. The point was, for me, Runners are not universally defined as people who kill for a living. Runners are defined as professionals in the world of crime.

And back on topic: Traceability, and storage. Not just with rdif tags, but with ritual magic as well. Stealing things, especially personal things, just makes a whole new unnecessary problem that didn't exist before so far as where to put crap, and them being able to find you. If the things you take aren't personal items, and are kept light, it makes sense, if you strip every body for every piece of valuables, you are going to get caught eventually.

~TDG
the_real_elwood
If your players are looting the body too much, set up situations where they won't be able to loot the bodies before they have to get the hell out. Or, you could look at paying your runners enough for the work they do, such that they won't have to resort to looting bodies to get the nuyen to do what they want.

I know my GM was always stingy with payments, and if we could get away with it we ALWAYS looted the bodies. If I can take it and sell/use it later, no reason I should leave it there with the dead guy.
DamienKnight
I suggest going along with it. If it makes the players happy, then all the better. I make a point of putting the work on the players though... I will make a quick list of items, something like 'Three throw away cell phones, two ares predators with 2 spare clips, and two damaged vests
I may even say something like 'Four of the cheapest SMG in the SR4 book'. Then I tell them they can sell it with a fixer contact. Base sell is 1/3 its value, modified by the fixer's negotation+connection role, -5% per connection rating. They have to look up the stuff, they have to do the math, and it has to be done outside normal play time... inbetween game sessions.

Some players will say its too much work, others will deal with it because it makes them happy, and that is the point.
Chrysalis
Having a Shadowrunner caught corpus delicti by security taking off the security guards clothes. He will be getting the monicker 'necropheliac' and if uncaught the whole gang may be now known for their necrofaggotry.
Falconer
Does carting off the aztechnology cyberzombie and selling it to Ares count as looting the body?

If so, I'm all for it :).


Really.. if they're taking everything down to the brass tacks... then it may be a problem for slowing things down. But first rule of GM'ing if you don't want your players to get it, don't give it to your puds. Also, stealing things like guns and commlinks wouldn't be that bad I'd think. Hehe, I might be tempted to form a monstrous cluster out of stolen commlinks now that the idea is given... Well maybe just the rating 4 and 5 ones... the rest, daddy needs response baby.

Deathmaster35
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 25 2009, 11:35 PM) *
I have to disagree guys. Its about Rep. If you have a Rep for clean professional runs with minimal collateral damage, then thats what you'll be hired to do.

If you have a Rep for being a small demolitions force who kill easily, well thats what you'll be hired for.

And if you are building a rep for the style of runs you are doing, that means people know you are doing those runs and you better be leaving town.


QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 25 2009, 11:35 PM) *
Also theres this weird notion you guys keep bringing up that just because someone has no problem stealing things they wouldn't have a problem killing. Uhm.. What? Just because you're willing to do one kind of crime doesn't mean you're willing to do another. Every single runner draws their line in a different place.

you seem to have a problem with killing, not everyone does. Most people that are put in situations of kill or be killed, will in fact kill. Shadowrunners by nature put themselves into those situations, while some may try to be "the good guy" and not kill the people trying to kill them, there is no reason to suspect the majority is like that. If you notice there are far far more lethal weapons/ammo in the game than non-lethal, the majority of offensive gear is centered around killing. It has nothing to do with doing one crime to mean you do another, it is a matter of to do your job you need to be willing to do the job. If your job is to steal a specific item out of a highly guarded facility, you should be willing to kill some guards to do so.

QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 25 2009, 11:35 PM) *
Also: No one is doing it wrong. Geeze. Its a game folks, one guy thinks it makes sense for corps to act one way, one guy thinks it makes sense for them to act another. Your Mileage May Vary. The point was, for me, Runners are not universally defined as people who kill for a living. Runners are defined as professionals in the world of crime.

Once again, it would be the minority that dont kill. In fact it would qualify for negitive qualities if your runner didnt want to kill guards and always went around with non-lethal attacks. If your GM says runners dont kill people, that is your GM making a change to the world setting, which he/she is more than welcome to do.
Orcus Blackweather
Really there is nothing that is absolutely forbidden. If your group is a street gang full of thugs, or a Mercenary group, slaughter might be the norm for your game. Most of us however tend to play a more restrained game (well I guess that is subjective huh? Seems like most games I play). In our game last night, we killed a few people. It was not the objective, and we released Neurostun in the air vents of the target building (actually the neuro-stun was thoughtfully provided by building security, and my Technomancer thanked them for the thought). This dropped all of the people in the building that were not chemically protected, ie all of the non-combatants. The only people who died were those actively shooting at us. This is the norm for our group, of course we were all in Chameleon Armor, so witnesses would be completely incapable of identifying us.

Anyone that murders dozens of innocent bystanders solely to preserve anonymity should think about investing in a balaclava.
Mäx
QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 26 2009, 04:07 AM) *
Shadowrunners cost corps millions on successful run (far more than the lives of a few dozen security) and if they know you did the run, you are as good as dead.

Why, killing the runner team isn't gonna bring the corp back their million nuyen, in fact it's gonna cause even more money loss.
Hunting down runners after they got away from your facility causes expenses and doesn't bring in any profit, so why on earth would a corp do that.
After all the corps are all about the bottom line.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Screaming Eagle @ Sep 25 2009, 09:45 AM) *
Use a crappier gun, much crappier. A hold out or something.

I can see the issue but you really should not be generating many kills this way unless the rules are being read quite literally - you knocked him out with a capsule doing sigifigant bruising and impact damage and then tranqed him pretty damn hard. Hes not bleeding out and has not taken an overdose of the drug - I'd be prone to ignore (and argue for the ignoring) the "bleeding out" rules in this case.



I am usually the guy that this happens with in Orcus' game. when I want to merely incapacitate the target, I tend to use Narcojet/DMSO and a Light Pistol... Base Damage 4s and then Narcojet of 10s... Unfortunately, I have a tendency to roll extremely well in the oddest circumstances... I have, on occassion, rolled almost as many successes as dice (My dice pool for Pistols is 13) with average successes around 5 or so... on the occassions that I do roll well, it is in the 10-11 range... which gets staged down a few points and then they take 9-10 stun, and then must stage 10s from the drug as well... I have unintentionally killed 5 or 6 individuals this way... but I do keep trying to minimize the damage...

Sometimes accidents happen, but I am sure that you are right in that it is generally rare, and it was at least obvious that the intent was for incapacitation rather than death (Hey, sometimes people are just way to damn susceptible to drugs)

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 26 2009, 10:22 AM) *
And if you are building a rep for the style of runs you are doing, that means people know you are doing those runs and you better be leaving town.



The problem with that statement is this... you have a mechanical representation of your capabilities that the Shadows knowqs... get that stat high enough and even those not in the shadows beging to see you...

This stat is represented by three values... your Street Cred (a figure based upon your Karma awards), your Notoriety and the fional value which is know as Public Awareness...

There is no way that you can keep your self completely anonymous in the Shadows... otherwise you would never be hireable... your Street Cred, Notoriety and Public Awareness are you resume when it comes to getting hired for jobs... Your actions ARE KNOWN by those that need to know, and eventually, even those outside of the shadows know who you are whne you walk down the street... You cannot help this, it is the way that the Shadows work...

You cannot exist in the shadows without your Rep. they go hand in hand... I would say to get use to it...

Keep the Faith
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 26 2009, 01:50 PM) *
Why, killing the runner team isn't gonna bring the corp back their million nuyen, in fact it's gonna cause even more money loss.
Hunting down runners after they got away from your facility causes expenses and doesn't bring in any profit, so why on earth would a corp do that.
After all the corps are all about the bottom line.



"Revenge gets costed to the PR department."

There are basically three reasons to go after folks that hit your facilities if you know who they are.

1) Deterrence If you agressively pursue those who hurt you runners will likely at least think twice before acting against you, which makes finding those who will work agaisnt you both a smaller pool and more expensive to aquire.
2) Damage Control: If you'd spent a lot of money buildign a security and the runners break in or compormise that facility they may walk away with more then just their primary objective. They walk away with possible knowledge fo the facility or unconnected projects. As such if a corporation finds out who hit them they can almost be guaranteed to try and pull them back for a debrief. To find out how deep the damage goes
3) Counter move: If your enemy has assetts that they have used to hurt you and has done so successfully you are better off nuetralizing those assets so they don't do it again.

In short, I feel as business practices go revenge is actually a pretty good one. Sure it doesn't produce a direct dividend but can mitigate further damage and that cna be priceless.
Ravor
Personally I think peopel are forgetting that society in the Sixth World has decayed to the point that killing a few sec guards simply doesn't register. And besides, said sec guards have already signed away their lives and probably even their children into corp slavery the moment they signed the employee contracts and started renting their equipment from the corp.

And if today's corps can take out life insurance on their employees do you really think that the megas don't have clauses stating that the corp gives at least half of any insurance policy the employee has?


Also the very idea that the corp would be more concerned about dead grunts than a priceless prototype is simply bullshit. Sure, the Head of Security might take his dead guards personaly, but he knows that if he spends money getting revenge his bosses will have his head on a platter, perhaps literally.
Fabe
According to the Runner's companion the chances of a corp devoting a lot of time and resources to tracking down a runner team isn't that high. They all know how the game is played Shadow Runners are some else deniable asset and will be handing off what ever they took and getting their pay ASPA. As other said it's all about the bottom line,is going after the Runners worth the money? If they took somethings they no longer know where it is, If they took some one they don't know where they are now, if they destroyed some thing then there's no point going after the guys at all. Shadow runners are all just tools to the Corps and someone else's Mr.Johnson is the one to blame and is the one with the stuff now.

Sure if Corp Security thinks they have a few hours before the hand off then they'll take a shot at finding the Runners,other wise it's considered the cost of doing business. However there are two reasons why a corp will really go after someone, Revenge or deterrence,killing everyone in site hurts moral and will try and bring it back up by hunting down those who did it,after all who wants to work for a Corp that can't keep it's people safe? As for looting well selling a bunch of stuff with a corps name stamped all over it would make it easier to track a person down especially if that stuff is rare and unique , such as Red Samurai amour which would also be come a matter of Honor for them since the idea of street scum using their elite stuff would be a huge offense.
Don't kill too much, don't take too much,and don't blow up too much.

Lastly all the Mega Corps use Shadow Runners, if every Corp hunted down every little Runner over every little hit then Shadow Running could be come more trouble then it's worth and The Corporations would have to start doing their own dirty work. Remember the whole idea of Shadow Runners is for the corp to have a deniable asset,even if things do lead back to them every thing is so off the books the powers that be can just say the Johnson acted alone and with out permission and throw him to the wolves.
Mäx
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 26 2009, 10:52 PM) *
1) Deterrence If you agressively pursue those who hurt you runners will likely at least think twice before acting against you, which makes finding those who will work agaisnt you both a smaller pool and more expensive to aquire.

You should propably ask Aztecnology how well that's working out for them.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 26 2009, 10:52 PM) *
3) Counter move: If your enemy has assetts that they have used to hurt you and has done so successfully you are better off nuetralizing those assets so they don't do it again.

Except their not your enemies assets, their freelancers whose services you might need next week.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 26 2009, 01:22 PM) *
And if you are building a rep for the style of runs you are doing, that means people know you are doing those runs and you better be leaving town.


...Dude, I'm wondering how you think you get hired? If the -public- knows, if the Star can track you, if you make enough waves, that they have to, especially if people are afraid for their lives, and you start killing cops willy-nilly, they will come get you, and make an example of you. But the shadows know, thats how you get hired, thats -why- you get hired. Your fixer goes 'yeah I know someone who does ..work.' and then directs the johnson to the team of runners most appropriate, including motis operandi, to their needs.


QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 26 2009, 01:22 PM) *
you seem to have a problem with killing, not everyone does. Most people that are put in situations of kill or be killed, will in fact kill. Shadowrunners by nature put themselves into those situations, while some may try to be "the good guy" and not kill the people trying to kill them, there is no reason to suspect the majority is like that. If you notice there are far far more lethal weapons/ammo in the game than non-lethal, the majority of offensive gear is centered around killing. It has nothing to do with doing one crime to mean you do another, it is a matter of to do your job you need to be willing to do the job. If your job is to steal a specific item out of a highly guarded facility, you should be willing to kill some guards to do so.


I actually play a hit woman. There is no problem with killing people. Theres a problem with the fuzzy logic that leaving lots of bodies is the 'only' and 'most correct' way to do this, when in truth its just one style of playing.

QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 26 2009, 01:22 PM) *
Once again, it would be the minority that dont kill. In fact it would qualify for negitive qualities if your runner didnt want to kill guards and always went around with non-lethal attacks. If your GM says runners dont kill people, that is your GM making a change to the world setting, which he/she is more than welcome to do.


Elephants are grey, not all grey things are elephants.

One of the team mates in the game I'm currently playing has the flaw 'pacifist' My character sat him down and told him frankly that if his squeamishness interfered with business she would do for him herself. That being said we have only fired two bullets on team paying mission so far. Both of those were stick n shocks. However when someone drekked with one of the team's family members we went out and slaughtered them. My issue, sir, is that you continue to paint everyone with the same brush and pigment. If nothing else the amount of replies from folks who disagree with you should tell you, by the powers, that not everyone does it the same way.
CanRay
Ah, but never forget, "It's the loot loot loot that makes the boys get up and shoot shoot shoot!"
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 26 2009, 06:08 PM) *
You should propably ask Aztecnology how well that's working out for them.

Except their not your enemies assets, their freelancers whose services you might need next week.



Moderatly well by my understanding, their the number 2 megacorp in the world and the only one with their own pet country as a sand box that the other corps can't play in. So presumably they must be doing something right.

They are my enemies assets in that they have successfully contacted them and used them to pull off a presumably high level job against one of my facilities. I'm not saying i'm going to whack every runner team that steals a load of sprockets from my warehouse but when they start to play at the corporate research facility level where they are literally costing the companies involved in hundred thousand to millions of nuyen range those runs are not just handed to Joe random team off the street (at least not if the GM is runnign the setting right in my opinion) they are professionals who my opponents have settled on some level of working relationship with. I cannot strike directly at my oponents I'll need to employ my own deniable assets for that, but taking my enemies pieces off the board if I can find them just makes good sense logically. Yes there is a cost/benefits analysis, but I think you incorrectly assuem that the corps rigidly pursue no expenses, which simply isn't logical. Following up on breaches that occur at ones facility is an essential security practice even in the real world. It falls into the risk management category.

As to killing vs not killing: I have become increasingly concerned with the proiliferation of non-lethal weapons in shadowrun and how amazing their effectiveness is compared to more standard lethal weapons. We play fourth edition so i have ruled that non lethal projectiles do not stage up for extra successes. This makes them considerably more difficult to use then their lethal counterparts, which in my mind is as it should be. In short I believe that Shadowrunners are like good soldiers, they don't want to kill anyone, but their willing and able to do so if the job calls for it. How that affects them internally and the lengths they'll go to not kill someone varies from 'Runner to 'Runner (more so then soldier to soldier) but killing in the persuit of a goal is not frowned upon, so long as it's not excessive. On the other hand I do believe unless the job called specifically otherwise both your enemies and your employers would aprpeciate non-lethal or "quiet" tactics and discretion so long as the job gets done.

THere is a series of unspoken rules and protocols shadowrunners live by. Get the job done, don't get caught. ANything else is discretionary. Looting may be seen as slightly unprofessional but honestly most J's won't care and so long as your J is happy and your getting paid your you'll live to run another day and your cred will rise. These rules help protect you, but your best protection is yourself so don't always count on "the corps would never come after us". All it takes is one corp like Aztechnology or one vengefull feeling VP with clout and your dead.
Karoline
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 27 2009, 01:54 PM) *
Looting may be seen as slightly unprofessional but honestly most J's won't care and so long as your J is happy and your getting paid your you'll live to run another day and your cred will rise.


Actually I would think that most J's wouldn't -know- if the runners looted bodies or not. The debriefing generally includes "Here is your gizmo, here is our money, we had to kill some guards, see you next time you need a gizmo." I don't see why the runners would bother mentioning that they also managed to steal a crate of Fairlights while they were in there.
LurkerOutThere
My implication being even if they found out, they likely wouldn't care. Now if your J is an doing an internal operation and has specified no looting etc. He will both know, and also in all probability be rather pissed.
Deathmaster35
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 27 2009, 12:03 PM) *
...Dude, I'm wondering how you think you get hired? If the -public- knows, if the Star can track you, if you make enough waves, that they have to, especially if people are afraid for their lives, and you start killing cops willy-nilly, they will come get you, and make an example of you. But the shadows know, thats how you get hired, thats -why- you get hired. Your fixer goes 'yeah I know someone who does ..work.' and then directs the johnson to the team of runners most appropriate, including motis operandi, to their needs.

People should not know the exact jobs you did, your fixer puts you in contact with the johnson, they dont get to know the details of the job or what you did on the job, only if it was a success or not. You seem to assume that people know exactly what jobs you are doing, if they are that means someone on your team has loose lips. Your fixer should only know the extent of the info you give them about how your team operates and when johnsons pay them their cut from you getting the job done (aka, finders fee).

QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 27 2009, 12:03 PM) *
I actually play a hit woman. There is no problem with killing people. Theres a problem with the fuzzy logic that leaving lots of bodies is the 'only' and 'most correct' way to do this, when in truth its just one style of playing.

I never said it was the only way or the most correct way, I said that your concept of not killing security as the norm was incorrect. Shadow runners are expected to use lethal force and a johnson wont care when you do unless the job specifical called to not use it and in that case you should be questioning the motives of the johnson as you are probably hitting his corp.

QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Sep 27 2009, 12:03 PM) *
My issue, sir, is that you continue to paint everyone with the same brush and pigment. If nothing else the amount of replies from folks who disagree with you should tell you, by the powers, that not everyone does it the same way.

I think you are failing to see the point. The setting has stated that shadowrunners kill people, this is in the many stories in the various editions of the system. A johnson should not care one way or the other that you killed the security guards in the facility he was having you hit. The public should not be knowing you are the runners that killed the security in the specific facility you hit, as the details of your run should be between your team and the johnson that hired you, not the public.
I have never said nor implied that all shadow runners work the same, nor that they all be expected to work the same. The idea that the bulk of runners dont try to kill the people trying to kill them and dont use the majority of the weapons in the system to go with the non-lethal ones is a bit silly. If you notice the number of non-lethal weapons has been growing over the years though, to give more options to those that dont want to just kill everything in their path.
Deathmaster35
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 27 2009, 03:34 PM) *
Actually I would think that most J's wouldn't -know- if the runners looted bodies or not. The debriefing generally includes "Here is your gizmo, here is our money, we had to kill some guards, see you next time you need a gizmo." I don't see why the runners would bother mentioning that they also managed to steal a crate of Fairlights while they were in there.

Just as they most likely wouldnt know if the team killed all of the guards on duty, as what corp is going to advertise that they just had all of their security at a facility killed? They would likely contact Lone Star about it, and try to cover it up as to not get the bad publicity.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 27 2009, 11:34 PM) *
People should not know the exact jobs you did, your fixer puts you in contact with the johnson, they dont get to know the details of the job or what you did on the job, only if it was a success or not. You seem to assume that people know exactly what jobs you are doing, if they are that means someone on your team has loose lips. Your fixer should only know the extent of the info you give them about how your team operates and when johnsons pay them their cut from you getting the job done (aka, finders fee).


You really need to go read the rules about rep again. Seriously. The shadowlands -know- dude. At the very -least- your fixer knows they set someone up to do a job, the johnson knows he hired you to do a job, and then the job happens. If its bloody enough it even gets on the news. Now the public doesn't know you did what you did, but the shadows, they know.

QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 27 2009, 11:34 PM) *
I never said it was the only way or the most correct way, I said that your concept of not killing security as the norm was incorrect. Shadow runners are expected to use lethal force and a johnson wont care when you do unless the job specifical called to not use it and in that case you should be questioning the motives of the johnson as you are probably hitting his corp.


Killing sec is a -good- way to get caught -while- you're doing whatever it is you're hired to do, and on a lot of jobs a good way to make sure they discovered you did something. I never said people shouldn't defend themselves, and I know being slow on the trigger can get you killed as a runner, but you're advocating a body count thats -well- out of proportion, and for some jobs frankly ridiculous.

QUOTE (Deathmaster35 @ Sep 27 2009, 11:34 PM) *
I think you are failing to see the point. The setting has stated that shadowrunners kill people, this is in the many stories in the various editions of the system. A johnson should not care one way or the other that you killed the security guards in the facility he was having you hit. The public should not be knowing you are the runners that killed the security in the specific facility you hit, as the details of your run should be between your team and the johnson that hired you, not the public.
I have never said nor implied that all shadow runners work the same, nor that they all be expected to work the same. The idea that the bulk of runners dont try to kill the people trying to kill them and dont use the majority of the weapons in the system to go with the non-lethal ones is a bit silly. If you notice the number of non-lethal weapons has been growing over the years though, to give more options to those that dont want to just kill everything in their path.


By defining shadowrunners solely as people who kill other people for money you are saying that someone who choses not to do that is not a shadowrunner, and then try to tell me that to do their jobs they -have- to kill people, which is -not- true, more on some of those jobs than others.

For instance, you can play someone who exclusively does second story work (stealing from buildings, as opposed to stealing from people) this character would be all about sneaking in and out without being seen, and could easily do his job without killing anyone. Would they be a shadowrunner? Yes.

You could play a hacker who deals in corporate secrets, they could -easily- do their job never killing anyone. Are they still a shadowrunner? Yes.

You could play a shadowdoc, who doesn't kill for the oath they took, they would still be a shadowrunner.

I could go on.
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