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Neurosis
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 18 2010, 11:42 PM) *
allow me to clarify. in the game that i am playing in, the typical pay for a runner of a given calibre might be 5,000 credits for an average run (for the sake of argument, we'll call an average run to be a run taking place over a single day with a full week's worth of notice).

in your game, the typical pay for a runner of that same calibre for a similar run might be half that, double that, 10 times that, one-tenth of that, or anywhere in-between or beyond in either direction, because there is no official published standard pay rate list that i am aware of so it's entirely based on what your group feels is appropriate.

so, in my home games, the appropriate price for such a runner to be hired for a run that you've already planned etc might be, say, 3,000-4,000 nuyen (since he didn't have to spend the week leading up to it getting the info etc, he wouldn't get paid as much, but since the most dangerous night is the night of the run he wouldn't get only 1/7th or anything near that low). but let's suppose in *your* home games, the runners typically get paid 10 times what they get paid in my home games. if i were to submit something to the editors, and list the price to hire a runner as being 3 to 4 thousand nuyen, and they publish that, well in your games you'll be able to hire a small army of shadowrunners to go with you, or even instead of you, and you could pocket half your paycheck without even doing anything.

now multiply that problem by the number of potential readers for the DDH... whatever value you assign to it, it's probably going to be wildly inaccurate for more people than it will be accurate for. and now multiply it by the number of people who might submit those NPCs as runners-for-hire. it's something that the editors could not possibly balance for everyone's game, so it looks like they just removed it.


Yes, I understand completely what you are saying, and I agree from a GAMIST standpoint, but from a SIMULATIONIST standpoint the characters themselves would most likely have rates that would not be based on what certain characters could or could not AFFORD to a pay.

I understand their choice to remove it, but then again I wish in general that the payscale of Shadowruns and services was not so entirely up in the air and that there were some guidelines for it built into the game.
Jaid
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 19 2010, 04:57 AM) *
Yes, I understand completely what you are saying, and I agree from a GAMIST standpoint, but from a SIMULATIONIST standpoint the characters themselves would most likely have rates that would not be based on what certain characters could or could not AFFORD to a pay.

I understand their choice to remove it, but then again I wish in general that the payscale of Shadowruns and services was not so entirely up in the air and that there were some guidelines for it built into the game.

well sure, but i'm just saying that if you ask 10 dumpshockers what the appropriate pay for a run is, you'll quickly find out that there is no general consensus. so if they were to put an amount to pay the hire hands, what would you suggest they put as the price?

it would be *nice* if we had some sort of basis as to what assumptions the game was based around in terms of cash rewards like we do with karma rewards. but we don't, and unless/until we do, it's pretty much impossible to tell people how much you should pay for hired help of a given caliber.
Neurosis
To me it seems kind of like a major oversight on the part of the devs. If we know that a Professional Rating 1 Grunt is likely to have Attribute and Skill ratings of 2 and 3, and we know that a Professional Rating 6 Grunt is likely to have Attribute and Skill ratings of 5 and 6, then why can't we assume that a Professional Rating 1 runner will charge 1,000 Nuyen for RUN X while a Professional Rating 6 runner will charge 20,000 Nuyen for the same run?

Based on what I think PCs typically get paid (in my campaign and in published source material) and based more on verisimilitude and accuracy than on making hired help accessible to players or easy for them to get, I would say (and let me throw in also 'without any play testing' and 'completely wild ass guess') that hired runners (not grunts, but runners) should be paid:

(Professional Rating Squared) * 1,000 Nuyen Per Day

HEAVILY modified by Loyalty, Negotiation Tests, and situational factors. This leaves a PR 1 Runner as costing a paltry thousand per day, a PR 3 Runner costing 9,000 per day, and a top of the line guy--who I would mention at least in the fluff probably won't even work for you any way because you are not *professional* enough--charging a baseline of 36,000 per day. Obviously the higher the PR the more stringent it would have to be. They can charge different rates for actual planning and action, too.

Joe Jerkoff the PR 1 sprawl ganger might accept payment in the form of drugs and guns and loot from dead bodies. Where as Black Leather Professional Rating 6 fuck you I wasn't here no fingerprints might charge you an extra 12k PER DIEM as hazard pay for your lack of a plan/general incompetence.

QUOTE
but i'm just saying that if you ask 10 dumpshockers what the appropriate pay for a run is, you'll quickly find out that there is no general consensus.


I am actually going to make this topic soon as a result of this convo.
Method
Please god no. Use the search function.
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Method @ Sep 19 2010, 11:18 PM) *
Please god no. Use the search function.

make a better one.
Method
Donate the money to buy some new software. wink.gif

Believe me I wish we had a better search function, but its no excuse for starting yet another thread on what is probably the most repetitive topic on the boards just to prove Jaid right (because he is by the way).
Neurosis
I am aware that "How much do runs pay?" is a common topic. I'm not looking for an absolute answer or positing there is such a thing.

I just wanted to kind of collect some people's opinions and the rationale behind them. If there's another thread that's already doing this and still active, link me to it.
Method
Keyword: payment
Keyword: payments
Keywords: typical compenation

I'm sure you can find plenty of discussion about why people have different opinions on how much runs should pay. I don't mean to be a jerk, but this is one of my pet peeves. I'd rather see you necro one of those threads that you find interesting then start yet another.

Edit: this one from just last month is pretty good and already has 4 pages of discussion.
Neurosis
No offense but (most of) those threads (that I've skimmed) are kind of idiotic. They are (mostly) along the lines of "I'M A GM AND I CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE AMOUNT TO PAY MY PLAYERS, HELP ME". I can figure out what to pay my players. I am sure other GMs can figure it out. I know there is no one right answer. But I really am curious what the general consensus is.

I really want to talk about the issue in the context of:

QUOTE
I wish in general that the payscale of Shadowruns and services was not so entirely up in the air and that there were some guidelines for it built into the game.


and

QUOTE
it would be *nice* if we had some sort of basis as to what assumptions the game was based around in terms of cash rewards like we do with karma rewards. but we don't, and unless/until we do, it's pretty much impossible to tell people how much you should pay for hired help of a given caliber.


and

QUOTE
i'm just saying that if you ask 10 dumpshockers what the appropriate pay for a run is, you'll quickly find out that there is no general consensus.


and

QUOTE
To me it seems kind of like a major oversight on the part of the devs. If we know that a Professional Rating 1 Grunt is likely to have Attribute and Skill ratings of 2 and 3, and we know that a Professional Rating 6 Grunt is likely to have Attribute and Skill ratings of 5 and 6, then why can't we assume that a Professional Rating 1 runner will charge 1,000 Nuyen for RUN X while a Professional Rating 6 runner will charge 20,000 Nuyen for the same run?


In other words, I'd like to make an informed attempt to generate a consensus (like a poll, but without the poll). Anyway, out of respect I will certainly not start a thread about this done-to-death topic until I read up on all of the old threads that have covered this and see if a meaningful consensus has already been reached. I don't want to waste anyone's time.
Neurosis
Afterthought:

As to the existing volume of discussion on this topic, I see your point absolutely.
Method
Yeah, like I said if you can't find what you're looking for, feel free to necro one of those and take it in a new direction or hell, just post a more thoughtful thread if you want. Its not like I'm officially telling you "I'm a mod and you may not start a thread on this topic." I'm just telling you that if you want multiple perspectives they are already there. If you think you can guide the community to a consensus (which is kind of like herding cats) please do. We could sticky it an be done with the whole debate! biggrin.gif
Neurosis
I can just imagine that. A sticky that says: "Every Shadowrun pays 10,000 Nuyen. Every single one. Always. Now STOP ASKING."

Kind of like...

Stan: But Chef, when IS the right time for us to start having sex?
Chef: It's very simple, children; The right time to start having sex is…seventeen.
Kyle: Seventeen?
Chef: Seventeen.
Sheila: So, you mean seventeen as long as you're in love?
Chef: Nope, just seventeen.
Gerald: But what if you're not ready at seventeen?
Chef: Seventeen. You ready.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 18 2010, 04:07 PM) *
As for Bull's stats, they're actually toned down and pretty limited by the SR4 rules. Bull was somewhere in the 700 Karma range, mostly from SR2 and some SR3. We played that game for over 6 years, with the first 2-3 years playing pretty much 3+ times a week. I translated him across as well as I could (And keep in mind that 700 SR2 Karma likely translates into about 1400 SR4A Karma smile.gif) He's a bit over the top, but hey... Sometimes you need over the top. smile.gif

Bull


I was surprised his Matrix initiative was so low, actually. A rating 6 Response Enhancer for his deck could increase that to 20, assuming a response 7 deck with the +1 from hotsim. Not to mention the +1 from a Customized Interface. So, you're looking at 6 Intuition + 7 Response + 6 RE + 1 CI +1 HS for 21 Matrix Initiative. Otherwise, he night get jumped by a bit cutter straight out of chargen. wink.gif

Also his weight.. Body of 9 is like a small car. I'd expect a body 9 guy to be in the realm of 320kg and have trouble getting through doorways. biggrin.gif
Neurosis
It was his combat abilities I had a problem with much more than his matrix abilities, FTR. His Matrix abilities were in line with the given fluff.

Being 'LORD OF THE ASSAULT CANNON'...not as much.
Bull
Most of our campaign was a 2-player game, with a handful of players who were "Part time" at best.

Bull was a Decker who branched out to STreet Samurai and Rigging. His partner, Johnny 99, was a Coyote Shaman who branched out to Hand to Hand Expert (Weapon Focus and lots of Sword skill) and Face. It was more necessity than anything else.

The Panther thing sort of became a running joke. Well, "Need bigger guns" was, actually. Started in Mecurial when we faced down Perianwyr the first time. I picked up a Vindicator Minigun (WHich promptly got slagged, along with my brand new Rigger Bulldog Step Van. Tinner loved to take away our toys smile.gif). We got our asses handed to us later on by a cybered-out Bandersnatch. These days, he would be defined as a Cyberzombie Biodrone, but back them, those concepts didn't exist. When we asked for the biggest gun Goober, my Dwarf Armorer contact had, he handed me a PAC.

I did a Light wound to the Cybersnatch with it. Yeah. It was like that.

Then we lived through Bug City.

When we finally escaped there, we built up a big compound for our base, and I put a PAC in every room of the house. Just in case. It came in handy when Frumious, the rigger who had been controlling the Cybersnatch way back when and who could hold a grudge like no ones business, sent the Jaberwocky after us. Essectially a cyberzombie Wyvern biodrone. With wing mounted rocket launchers. It tore the roof off Bull's house and tried taking a bite out of Bull's son Billy while Bull was sitting on the John. The fact that I had on my character sheet "EVERY room of the house" came in handy. smile.gif

The PAC didn't really come out all taht often. Usually Bull used Gama Scopolomine in an Ares Squirt, as he tried to be as non lethal as possible. If that didn't cut it, he had the Warhawk. When both failed though, obviously it was time to put very, very large holes in things. <grin>

@Sithney: Do keep in mind that I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the cracked out Hacking rules in SR4. I haven't played one yet, though I've sorta made one to play in Missions Season 4 (Bull's son Billy, actually, ask about his scars sometime). There's a lot of little fiddly rules with no logical connections all over, and not having played a hacker yet, it's hard to really grok some of those.

SR4 ends up being really, really limiting when you're translating characters over from older editions.
Warlordtheft
I guess four things things to keep in mind (if you just follow RAW):

1. Program ratings are not limited to rating 6 (just the starting character is).
2. Mainframe and team work tests to upgrade programs to a higher rating (System first!!).
3. Everything is Program+Skill in the matrix.
4. Gauss Rifles are better than panther cannons. I'm sure you would of upgraded to those.
Bull
Nahh. I have issues with teh way the Guass rifles work, for one. They're badly broken and need fixed, because they're currently stupid as hell (nothing should have -1/2 armor, it just doesn't make sense. You're saying that it can blow through 8 points of my 16 armor on my Military armor, but only 1 of the 2 points on my fringed real leather jacket?). Plus, the PAC is just a distinctive, classic weapon. And Bull is nothing if not nostalgic for the classics smile.gif

That, and he specialized in PAC smile.gif

Bull
Jaid
QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 20 2010, 05:42 PM) *
Nahh. I have issues with teh way the Guass rifles work, for one. They're badly broken and need fixed, because they're currently stupid as hell (nothing should have -1/2 armor, it just doesn't make sense. You're saying that it can blow through 8 points of my 16 armor on my Military armor, but only 1 of the 2 points on my fringed real leather jacket?). Plus, the PAC is just a distinctive, classic weapon. And Bull is nothing if not nostalgic for the classics smile.gif

That, and he specialized in PAC smile.gif

Bull

actually, it has -4 as well. so that 2 armor becomes 0. the cut-off point for where armor starts helping at all is either 9 or 10 (depending how you round).
Bull
QUOTE (Jaid @ Sep 20 2010, 05:16 PM) *
actually, it has -4 as well. so that 2 armor becomes 0. the cut-off point for where armor starts helping at all is either 9 or 10 (depending how you round).


Right, forgot about that. A double armor hit, real special. Yeah, the Gauss rifle is just stupid.

Bull
Neurosis
PAC is better flavor for Bull anyway, I agree with... Bull.

And this conversation just turned weird.

QUOTE (Bull @ Sep 20 2010, 04:31 AM) *
*anecdotes*


Fascinating. Bug City certainly seems like a "need bigger guns" type situation. : )

EDIT:

QUOTE
When we finally escaped there, we built up a big compound for our base, and I put a PAC in every room of the house.


Almost missed this the first time, so...emphasis mine.
Bull
It should be noted, Bull didn't actually use it very much. A Panther isn't exactly the kind of thing you carry around on a regular basis, and when you fired one, you tended to get Lone Star or Knight Errant High Threat Response teams showing up. smile.gif

Anyway, we're waaaaaay off topic here smile.gif

Bull
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