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Ascalaphus
A run with no unnecessary* casualties: how would you do it? What equipment works well, what are the most useful spells, and what kind of tactics should you consider? What obstacles should you beware of?


*I.E. for wetwork only the paid-for target dies. Civilians stay alive at all times, and preferably all the guards too.
crizh
One thing you should be aware of is that 'Immediate' does not mean what you think it means.

Chemicals are completely worthless for surprise or silent takedowns.

Use SnS instead.
Dakka Dakka
Yup SnS or Stunbolt/ball followed by signature removal
Doc Byte
Ingram Smartgun X + SnS firing anything from narrow bursts to wide full burst. cool.gif
Traul
Is there no bonus to hear a weapon firing a burst? There used to be one in SR3. If so, a gun to fire single bullets would be a better choice for infiltration.
Doc Byte
The Mac X comes with an internal sound suppressor and you can mod it with electronic firing. biggrin.gif
crizh
The SA Fire Selection mod is pretty cheap too.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Traul @ Nov 12 2009, 04:45 PM) *
Is there no bonus to hear a weapon firing a burst? There used to be one in SR3. If so, a gun to fire single bullets would be a better choice for infiltration.
There isn't in SR4. Also with a single SnS projectile it is pretty difficult (5+ net hits) to incapacitate anyone.
Marcus
Chem rounds Loaded DMSO-NarcoJet.
Contact poison requires 0 success thresh hold, Ignores any armor that isn't chem rated, and is the nearly-perfect solution to the non-lethal question.
Downsides its like 70 NY a shot. But nothing's perfect.
Dakka Dakka
And the victim has a whole combat turn to react and retaliate.
Warlordtheft
CZ120-silencer, capsule rounds with DMSO and narcojet. Enough said.

Note:DMSO and Narco Jet are instantaneous, and don't have a speed.
Sixgun_Sage
SnS really is the way to go with non-lethal methods, then you dose the bastards with something like slab or time-released doses of narco to keep them down, also, duct tape is your friend. Remember, in the shadows paranoia is a survival mechanism.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Nov 12 2009, 07:44 PM) *
Note:DMSO and Narco Jet are instantaneous, and don't have a speed.
Wrong, they have a speed of Immediate, which means:
QUOTE ('SR4A')
Immediate means the Effect is applied at the end of the Combat Turn the victim is exposed to the toxin.

Marcus
It's true about Immediate. But I still think its the best most sure way to get it done, if it makes you feel better you can pare it up with Stick and Shocks.
-2 is a -2.
Traul
Immediate toxins work fine if you have Surprise (as you should when you sneaking in) and the guard has only one IP: he cannot use his action to react to your attack, so he cannot call his friends. And as he does not sffer any immediate damage, a perception roll might be required to detect he has been attacked at all.
Dakka Dakka
According to the rules that is not the case:
QUOTE ('SR4A p. 165')
Characters who are surprised cannot take any actions that directly affect, impede, or counteract characters that have surprised them. This means surprised characters cannot attack those who surprised them, nor can they dodge or defend against attacks from those characters. The surprised character also cannot react to those characters’ actions in any way. The surprised character can, however, carry out other actions that are not specifically directed at any surprising characters, such as dropping prone or readying a weapon (but not firing it).
Thus he can still call for help and if he can deduce what hit him apply an antidote or stim patch. Also not all opposition has only one IP.
Traul
He still needs to detect the attack. If he does not, he can have as many IPs as he wants, that won't save him. High level oposition should be carrying a biomonitor for that.
Fezig
As has already been stated, SnS with burst fire is your friend. I would also suggest zip-ties and duct tape for restraining those you've incapacitated, as well as general use of illusion spells and other effects to avoid combat. You want to plan extensively, minimize combat opportunities, and have at least two exit strategies that are simple and different.

Also, a good hacker is wonderful for this type of run. They need to take care of the cameras, sensors, etc, as well as handling any communications that happen to get out from a guard who doesn't get surprised.

Lastly, have a plan for when you screw it up completely during the first 3 minutes and need to cowboy it up and move. Spray SnS rounds, thermal and regular smoke, and AoE Spells.
Dakka Dakka
Capsule Rounds do a minimum of 5S unless they are delivered with a slingshot. Injection Arrows/Bolts do a minimum of 3S. How can somebody not notice that? Especially with a firearm the unaugmented cop is likely to be knocked down.
Traul
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 12 2009, 09:53 PM) *
Capsule Rounds do a minimum of 5S unless they are delivered with a slingshot. Injection Arrows/Bolts do a minimum of 3S. How can somebody not notice that? Especially with a firearm the unaugmented cop is likely to be knocked down.

That's when using usual weapons to deliver chemicals. The dart guns and squirt guns are powered by compressed air and not deal any physical damage.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 12 2009, 02:53 PM) *
Capsule Rounds do a minimum of 5S unless they are delivered with a slingshot. Injection Arrows/Bolts do a minimum of 3S. How can somebody not notice that? Especially with a firearm the unaugmented cop is likely to be knocked down.

That's why I, personally, like using Capsule Rounds loaded with DMSO/Lešl. Knock 'em out with the Capsule Round and let the contents erase their memories so they'll never know you shot them.
crizh
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Nov 12 2009, 09:06 PM) *
That's why I, personally, like using Capsule Rounds loaded with DMSO/Lešl. Knock 'em out with the Capsule Round and let the contents erase their memories so they'll never know you shot them.


That's definitely a Sniper tactic rather than a blasting away on full-auto one. I do love Leal though...
Dakka Dakka
@Traul: Your right about those weapons, but you have to learn an exotic ranged weapon for each of them. SnS in an SMG or any other BF/FA weapon is the better bang for your buck IMHO. A Slingshot may be the only "cheap alternative"

@Dr. Funkenstein: You do know that excessive stun damage is transferred to the Physical Condition Monitor, right? This puts the guard in the hospital if it doesn't kill him right away. Unfortunately there is no way to safely erase the memory of an already unconscious person by mundane means.

BTW is damage increased by net hits for the dart guns/slingshots etc.? I find it hard to believe that a weapon that can deliver its projectile up to 750m doesn't do any damage to soft tissue at least at close range. Taser and Light Pistol Ranges would have been more believable.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
@Dr. Funkenstein: You do know that excessive stun damage is transferred to the Physical Condition Monitor, right? This puts the guard in the hospital if it doesn't kill him right away. Unfortunately there is no way to safely erase the memory of an already unconscious person by mundane means.

That's true of nearly any use of Capsule Rounds. If and when they do survive, though, it's better that they not be able to remember what the fuck happened.
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 12 2009, 01:40 PM) *
According to the rules that is not the case:
Thus he can still call for help and if he can deduce what hit him apply an antidote or stim patch. Also not all opposition has only one IP.


I dunno, the line about "The surprised character also cannot react to those charactersí actions in any way. " sounds like a good case for them getting caught completely flat-footed and not getting the alert off. I guess they could get away with it if they were to take an action to call base and say "Hey, Steve! Yeah, Jack here, out on Perimeter three. Good, good. No, I've got a situation here. Well, I can't talk about what it is. Nope. Not allowed to react to it. So, since I've got a turn to kill, thought I'd check in. Yeah, until the end of the combat turn. Can't say. Hypothetically, sure. Now that you mention it, I do feel a tingling in my extremities. Okay, that's my turn. Good catching up, say hi to Laurie for me!" (THUD)


Judgement call, of course. It all comes down to whether the GM wants tranq weapons to be a valid infiltration tool or not. If he likes 'em, the guards won't have time to call in before it takes effect, but if the GM thinks it's dumb: they'll hit the alarm, crash to the floor loud enough to alert the next post, or just have a biomonitor to call in a downed guard.

The moral of this (and indeed every other) story is that you need to be on the same page as your GM or your run will go South so fast your Johnson will show up in a white suit with a hounddog and a mint julip.

Paul
Proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance.

The easiest way to prevent casualties is to prevent engagement, or to completely control the circumstances in which you engage opponents. Technology and magic, combined with instant access to nearly any type of information, maps or data means BAMCIS is easier than ever!

Obviously each job is entirely different: key terrain features, cover and concealment, fields of fire, security-shifts, equipment, training, various and unpredictable factors. (Do any of the staff have any particularly bad habits; i.e. gambling debts, strange or socially unacceptable sexual practices, dependents, social or personal commitments.) Add in weather, climate, expected and instant events (Regular deliveries, house parties, instant mobs, training exercises, etc...I divide them into instant, weather events, media events, and street events for ease of tracking.)

Planning can be as in depth as you want, and the rewards can be just as complex! When I make adventures I take all of these factors into account.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE
Judgement call, of course. It all comes down to whether the GM wants tranq weapons to be a valid infiltration tool or not. If he likes 'em, the guards won't have time to call in before it takes effect, but if the GM thinks it's dumb: they'll hit the alarm, crash to the floor loud enough to alert the next post, or just have a biomonitor to call in a downed guard.

The moral of this (and indeed every other) story is that you need to be on the same page as your GM or your run will go South so fast your Johnson will show up in a white suit with a hounddog and a mint julip.


Good analysis. I think it would be cool to make it possible to do it, so I'll use that for my game. Of course, biomonitors still complicate things, unless your hacker can deal with that.
AngelisStorm
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Nov 12 2009, 07:55 PM) *
"Hey, Steve! Yeah, Jack here, out on Perimeter three. Good, good. No, I've got a situation here. Well, I can't talk about what it is. Nope. Not allowed to react to it. So, since I've got a turn to kill, thought I'd check in. Yeah, until the end of the combat turn. Can't say. Hypothetically, sure. Now that you mention it, I do feel a tingling in my extremities. Okay, that's my turn. Good catching up, say hi to Laurie for me!" (THUD)


spin.gif rotfl.gif rotate.gif spin.gif


Anyway, I've been curious: how do folks deal with Biomonotors? I have a few ideas, but it seems like the cheapest piece of neccessary equipment. If a corp was going to implant a guard, this would be it. (And isn't there a piece of non-nano equipment that is the same thing? I'm not near my books right now.) "Who cares if the guards survive!? We'll know them hooligans are a comin!" Heck, it's useful enough that the corps would almost pay for it themselves.*






*Ha! Just kiddin.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 12 2009, 09:32 AM) *
And the victim has a whole combat turn to react and retaliate.



3 whole seconds... Insignificant...

Keep the Faith
Kagetenshi
Shadowrunners, Bystanders, Security, and You: The Myth of the Moral Shadowrunner

(I'll admit that SR4, with a shorter Stun track than Physical in a number of cases, makes Stun Damage a bit more compelling.)

~J
Nightfalke
Paintball guns loaded with DMSO laced narcojet paintballs.

No physical damage (ok...very little. they bruise, but unless you're shot in the face, it's not gonna permanently hurt you). Can go full auto. And the image of a runner carrying a paintball gun amuses me.
Traul
QUOTE (AngelisStorm @ Nov 13 2009, 02:42 AM) *
Anyway, I've been curious: how do folks deal with Biomonotors? I have a few ideas, but it seems like the cheapest piece of neccessary equipment. If a corp was going to implant a guard, this would be it. (And isn't there a piece of non-nano equipment that is the same thing? I'm not near my books right now.) "Who cares if the guards survive!? We'll know them hooligans are a comin!" Heck, it's useful enough that the corps would almost pay for it themselves.*






*Ha! Just kiddin.
Hack the biomonitor before getting the guard down, so it keeps sending normal signals?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Traul @ Nov 12 2009, 07:24 PM) *
Hack the biomonitor before getting the guard down, so it keeps sending normal signals?



That Works...

Keep the Faith
Neraph
You guys almost have it...

The correct answer is:
Super Squirt loaded with Slab
Slab Splash Grenade.

This is much more expensive than Narcoject, but Slab >>>> Narcoject. As has been mentioned before, stun can overflow and potentially kill someone, whereas Slab just downs them for at the very least one hour. Now, for a professional job, which would you choose? The potentially lethal cheaper option, or the far superior, slightly more pricey one?
Ol' Scratch
Depends entirely on the conditions of the run, no? Normally people avoid killing for personal reasons (less heat, pacifist, more effective, etc.), not because they have to. If someone dies, someone dies. You deal with it. But if a job does include a no-kill clause, you can always demand a little extra nuyen to pay for options like that one.
AngelisStorm
The cheaper one of course. We're trying to make money here! If we were "professionals," the Johnson would be giving us a expense account. smokin.gif

Anyway, the things that have come to mind for Bio-comps were:

1. Hack it in the first place (and do whatever it is you do).
2. Throw a jammer at the dude. Everyone with a cellphone knows that sometimes you hit "dead zones." (And security are lazy, so they don't -want- there to be a real problem.)
3. Shoot him, then rush forward and hack. When control checks in, fake a "all clear, bio-comp is being spazzy" reply.
Neraph
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Nov 12 2009, 06:24 AM) *
A run with no unnecessary* casualties: how would you do it? What equipment works well, what are the most useful spells, and what kind of tactics should you consider? What obstacles should you beware of?


*I.E. for wetwork only the paid-for target dies. Civilians stay alive at all times, and preferably all the guards too.



QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein Posted Yesterday, 11:16 PM )
Depends entirely on the conditions of the run, no? Normally people avoid killing for personal reasons (less heat, pacifist, more effective, etc.), not because they have to. If someone dies, someone dies. You deal with it. But if a job does include a no-kill clause, you can always demand a little extra nuyen to pay for options like that one.


The OP. Besides, if you pop someone with a Slab capsule, unless they have a full chemical seal, you know for a fact that that is one person who's out of the way. Not so with Narcoject.

QUOTE (AngelisStorm Posted Yesterday, 11:18 PM )
The cheaper one of course. We're trying to make money here! If we were "professionals," the Johnson would be giving us a expense account.

You guys don't standardly negotiate a 40/60 or 30/70 payment plan? That's just smart running (and gets you your "expense account").
Ol' Scratch
On a related note, do they list any of the secondary stats on drugs like Slab somewhere, like Vector, Speed, Penetration, etc? I can't seem to find them if they do.
AngelisStorm
Man, do you know how hard it is to find a good face now-a-days? I can't negotiate; I'm a dedicated melee specialist with hundreds of BP's dedicated to cutting tanks in half. twirl.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 13 2009, 12:09 AM) *
Now, for a professional job, which would you choose? The potentially lethal cheaper option, or the far superior, slightly more pricey one?

The professional, superior, guaranteed-lethal option.

~J
Traul
FA grenade launcher?
BobRoberts
What about the melee option? Stealth/magic/social trickery to close. Either adept unarmed or a troll with a sap? Cheap and it should be quiet?

For those on a really tight budget, what's wrong with a nice gel round?

I personally enjoy the non lethal option when playing, for some targets anyway - can make the story a bit more interesting IME.
Ascalaphus
What about stuff like sleep gas grenades? Is that anywhere near effective?


Hmm. Maybe hacking the security control room to receive only "all clear" would be more effective than trying to hack every individual biomonitor though. I suppose knowing how the target facility's system is set up would be imperative.
crizh
I'm liking Slab now that I look at it.

Longer lasting and cheaper than Lael and doesn't risk killing the target with Stun overflow. It isn't an Awakened drug either so getting the precursors is going to be much easier.

I'm also a great believer in Splash Grenades and Mortars as delivery vehicles.

If folks see more than you want them to there is always the Laes Cigarette.
Dakka Dakka
I like slab too. How do you make an already suspicious guard/employee smoke one of your cigarettes?
crizh
Knock him unconscious with Slab first. If you had trouble you could adapt a gas mask to draw air through the cigarette.
Neraph
It gets worse (in effectiveness and price) if you speedball Laes and Slab in a splash grenade, or add in DMSO and put it in a gas grenade (if that works - never tried it).
Ol' Scratch
Slab isn't going to be very effective if its Speed isn't Immediate or at the very least 1 Combat Turn. Most of the drugs in the game don't have a listed Speed (or any other secondary) stat that I can find. frown.gif I also kinda have trouble seeing Slab, as written and its intended use, being an exceptionally fast-acting drug.
Dakka Dakka
The point was to combine it with the capsule round so that you knock out the target with the round itself and the slab keeps it down. The poison has 1 hour to start working, that should be enough.
Ol' Scratch
Why in God's name would you want to waste so much money on that then? Just carry about Slab slap-patches and apply them after you've knocked them unconscious rather than waste multiple rounds on it.
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