Ran into a judgement call in last week's game, and I wanted to get a few opinions.

The players decided to go after a sniper that was plinking at them. He was using the best available camo and his weapon was stealthed in every way possible - in other words, a competent professional. He was set up 800 meters downrange, with a network of spotter drones to help him find enemies that were trying to approach under cover.

The problem that arose was that the players were trying to spot a guy most of a kilometer away. The rules include a -2 for 'not in immediate vicinity' and -3 for 'far away'. Between the -4 for the ghillie suit and the -3 for 'far away', none of the players had enough Perception pool to spot the guy. Now, spotting a ghillie suited pro from half a kilometer away is damn near impossible, but I'd like to be able to quote numbers for the Damn Near part of that.

My question is, how far do you guys generally consider these distance rules to be in effect? Obviously there are a lot of things that can make things hard to spot, but what would be fair? 500m and 1000m? 250 and 500? 1000 and 3000?

Since telling them that it's a -12 modifier would give away the fact that it's a *huuuge* distance, roll some dice behind a GM screen and tell them they all have no idea where the gunner is. Then, if any of them rolled well enough to see the nearest drone, tell them they notice *that*. If they're the type that will get hopelessly frustrated by this, have them roll with no distance modifiers and tell them they fail anyway - and find a way to imply that they're looking in the wrong place, i.e., within their ability to see.

Here's a picture of a guy standing 1000 feet away holding up a giant, white sign.

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/images/geograp...nt/w04_1000.jpg

It is not unreasonable that the players can't see someone about 3 times as far away in camo

1000 feet is 333 yards, which is not that far to see someone standing out in the open. (The USMC rifle range includes firing at 200, 300, and 500 yards, and you can see the targets at 500 yards.)

It's not so much the penalties that are working against the runners, but the sniper's own stealth test. If it was a guy standing out in the open trying to shoot at them, the distance and cover wouldn't be that much of a factor. Even with penalties someone with a decent INT and PER and the enhancements would get the success. It's the threshold that screws you.

Personally, I'd tell the players the penalty they have to roll at. Yeah, it tells them that the guy is way far away (or has other penalties working in his favor), but how many dice you're actually rolling is a big factor in whether or not you're going to roll Edge. And in a severely penalized test, Edge might be your best bet.

I don't think there is a cutoff for Perception tests. If someone can see the PC's, the PC's should have a chance to see them.

It also sounds like your group has some low Perception pools. I mean, 4 INT and 4 Perception, 3 dice from the Vision or Aural Enhancements is 11 dice; that's enough dice to potentially spot something, and that's nto counting the +3 for "actively looking". (A silenced gunshot is a Threshold 2, the penalty for the range is -3 and -2 for interferring sounds, still seems doable. This is also the reason I always pick up a spatial recognizer. The runners use the aural test to pinpoint the general location of the sniper and then could use their vision mag to negate the distance penalty, because now they know where to zoom in.)

There are a lot of other rolls you can give the runners to help out though. LOG + Tactics to pick out the best vantage points to snipe from could narrow their search down (particluarly in an urban environment, where there are a lot of intervening obstacles). Figuring out the general trajectory of the rounds and where the sniper's blind spots are would also give them clues. By the time you get a position and start moving in that direction the sniper will have likely moved to a back-up spot, but if you're making the sniper move you have a better chance of spotting them.

Even at the 1000 Meter Mark on the Extended Rifle Ranges (Several USMC Bases have Ranges at these distances), you can still see a man-sized target, and can hit it with the open sights on an M16 Rifle... Have done it myself... it does take a certain amount of skill to engage the target at that range, but it is not impossible, adding a scoped sniper rifle tends to make it a bit easier definitely...

The perception test to see a ghillie suited character at that range will be difficult (nigh impossible if the sniper is at all competent), but you should have the opportunity to do so.... But, You are right... the infiltration threshold will be a bitch though...

Keep the Faith

Where are the runners? in most urban environments cover isn't that hard to find. If a guy down the street is firing at you with a sniper rifle all you need to do is go around a corner. If he has spotter drones then they can get to cover hack the drones and trace the signal right back to him. That would have been the best way to go at it.

This is very true... Sniping in an urban environment is useful, but rarely at the ranges that are used in an open environment... avoiding the sniper, once you know his general location, is not that hard to do in an urban environment... unfortunately, you may not survive the initial attack if the sniper is competent...

I'm told that after the 2nd-3rd shot most experienced people have a pretty good idea of direction, which tends to rapidly result in a sniper who keep shooting becoming an dead sniper.

This is very true, for those urban shots, for more distant shots, it is a bit trickier, dependant upon range and methods to minimize sound... But, experienced snipers do not tend to take a great many shots from the same platform... they do not tend to place themselves in a spot that they will be using for an extended period of time for multiple shots; instead,they provide themselves several locations that they can travel to with minimal effort that take advantage of several good bullet avenues...

If you have taken more than a couple of shots from the same position, it is time to move...

Keep the Faith

The team is going after an escaped experimental biodrone in the Cascade foothills, East of present-day Enumclaw, WA. The map is a fairly open wooded area. With the exception of a few boulders, most of the available cover was trees, which are pretty low on the Barrier table - the sniper used the indirect fire rules with his spotter drones and shot them right through the trunk. As the players picked off the drones, he lost his edge, and eventually got run down by the CybOrk with the Olfactory sensor. Hacking the drones is a good idea, but the team's Rigger was on GM duty this week.



I wrestled with realism vs. game balance there. A smart sniper takes the shot and gets the hell out of there; a smart sniper could probably wipe out the team before they could get to him. Since this is the first sniper this bunch of players has had to face, I decided to start off a little less then maximum lethality - no AP or Ex-Ex rounds, no called shots, no shoot and scoot or calls to other units for support. Mostly an exercise in Perception tests and long-range fire. It was still pretty effective - one PC KO'd and two more then halfway to KO'd. Considering this was supposed to be a minor encounter, I think making him any smarter could have been a TPK at the wrong point in the story.

It could go either way. If the sniper was moving after every third shot, he or she would be much harder to pinpoint but it might be easier to spot them in transit, and the runners would have had the time the sniper was moving to move themselves (if they could figure out when that was).

In wilderness environments, there's a lot of cover from elevation differences as well. The sniper has to either be very high up (making him easier to spot since there a fewer places for him to be), or accept that there are a lot of "dead zones" that he can't fire into.

That is true. Perhaps if the characters had some form of tactical knowledge, they could guesstimate where he is from the direction of the shots came from.

There's also Weapon Watcher software (which requires thermographic sensor input, natch) in Arsenal p61. While the software's rating is used for a Perception test, it's a Perception test which has a custom GM-determined threshold and doesn't use the standard Perception test penalties (if it did, it would be nearly useless). You can probably house rule that Weapon Watcher software adds bonus dice or works as a teamwork test to a standard Perception test for looking for weapons fire.

Hindsight is 20/20 though, and the players probably aren't aware of such software.

If it's a Perception Test, it uses Perception Test rules.

Thus, it rolls Sensor Rating and Software Rating as DP.

If so, it's really poorly worded. For example, for Gait Analysis software: "In all cases, use the software’s rating for the Perception Test against a gamemaster-determined threshold." This can be interpreted to mean "just roll the software's rating and let the GM figure it out".

Or Noise Analysis: "Use the software’s rating as the dice pool for noise-based Perception Tests." Note that it doesn't say "roll a Perception test with Sensor + Software Rating". It says use the Software rating as dice pool. Period.

Same thing with Visual Spotter: "Use the software’s rating as the dice pool for visual-based Perception Tests to identify, spot, or track a particular shape/object."

Or the Lie Detection software which says: "Lie detection software can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test (see p. 130, SR4) specifically to ascertain honesty using its rating as the dice pool."

Weapon Watcher is more vague, saying "Use the software's rating for the Perception Test" which leaves it open as using the Sensor + Software Rating as a Perception test (rather than Sensor + Clearsight). Still, I'm not seeing in RAW that says you should add the rating of the software to the Sensor attribute of a sensor or the Intuition of the user.

I understand that Sensor + Software Rating or possibly as bonus/teamwork dice to the Perception test is the most logical way to do it, and that's how it's used in our games. It's just not explicitly stated, as far as I can see. Do you have a reference supporting this interpretation? Because neither Arsenal nor the Arsenal errata supports this.

See, this is why I always invest in the aural boosts. It's usually easier to hear snipers than it is to see them. Visually it's INT+Per+Vision Enhancements, so let's say 4+4+3, minus the ghille suit and range of -7 and a threshold determined by the sniper's Infiltration roll. Hearing it's INT+Per+Aural Enhancements, +2 for the Spacial Recog to pinpoint the location of sounds, minus the range. so let's say 4+4+3+2-3, and the threshold is only [2] for the silenced gunfire.

This also seems like a good time to mention a spell that doesn't seem to get much use, Trid Phantasm. It's like carrying your own cover and concealment around with you. You throw a brick wall out there, it doesn't matter if they know it's not real, if they can't beat the spell they can't see through it, so it's blindfire. And once you get to hard cover you can send out Trid Phantasms of yourself to draw fire, which can help you safely pinpoint the sniper. I love that spell. (Invisibility is nice too, but it's a lot easier to get everyone behind one big Trid Phantasm than it is to cast an Imp Invis for everyone in the group.)

Lots of good info in here already, thanks everybody.

Did anyone have an opinion on the ranges for the distance penalties?

That is your call. But I feel that you should be consistent in making it.

A 20+ dice pool Perception adept is one of the few character concepts that I feel still has currency post SR4A. There are so many negative dice pool Perception modifiers that none of the "extra" dice would be wasted.

Yeah, the first phys ad I made ended up with a 15 dice perception test pretty much by accident.

Another good use of the Trid Phantasm spell, once you've pinpointed the sniper, you can but a giant, six meter long blinking red arrow over him pointing down. That would freak me out, if I were trying to be stealthy.

This is why I play mages; cast Extended Detect Enemies and nuke 'em from orbit, erm, I mean, summon spirits. Sadly, even that has serious range limitations.


[EDIT] I had something more useful here, but the more I think about it the less confident I am in what is really a good range of numbers to use. Bah.

Astral scouting FTW.

Does anybody actually have rules for this charlie foxtrot? 'Cause every time the mage gets up to the plate, he tries to use the Search power, an interval 10 minute extended test spirit power.

Search isn't that useful looking for snipers, unless you have a lot of time and know basically who's shooting at you. (There's teh 10 minute test, plus the spirit can only search for individuals the summoner can give a mental image of.)

Astral scouting is a little quicker. The astral mage can zip around and try to locate the sniper that way, but to me this is more useful if the mage already has a general idea of where the sniper is. In an urban environment, there's going to be so many people that pinpointing the one doing the shooting is going to be problematic and in a wilderness environment you've got a lot of natural flora and fauna that block astral sight.

However, if the mage does have a general idea of where the sniper is, he or she can cross that distance in one Combat Turn and start observing in detail. Once the sniper is spotted, a summoned spirit can tie the sniper up until reinforcements arrive.

Of course, it's also a great way to bag the mage. You have a thug with a gun, a 'sniper'. Unknown to him his real purpose is to draw the attention of the mage, which is why there are two spirits of man with concealment and manbolt patiently waiting on the astral....

With Astral scouting / Perception, you do not need to worry about the standard Visual modifiers, such as the Chameleon Suit. You are still subject to distance modifiers, & must still beat the sniper's Infiltration Hits. Further, there are other modifiers that may apply.

Unless the sniper instead of a chemelon suit has a blanket made of the same material and under it a biofiber blanket. Shadowrunners can use the stuff for a smuggling compartment why not to prot

Because it's alive, too - and dual. It's like trying to conceal yourself with floodlights: Sure people are not going to see you...

For the physical perception, I would roll an Opposed Perception vs Desguise (cammo) test. This leaves all possibilities open but the sniper should be safe if he does not glitch.

In an abandoned urban environment it would stand out ("There's no sniper, but there is a perfecty square patch of grass over there.") but in the wilderness, it would help to blend in with all the living material around.

Hey, It sounds like it worked out well for you...

As for the realism, realism kills PC's more often than not... I liked your solution (Besides, Story trumps realism, as long as it is not too cheesy that is)... And you are right, a good sniper will indeed tend to wipe out characters...

Keep the Faith

But the natural flora is also alive and if you are using the natural flora to conceal you, you still have problems for the mage, trying to suss out the person from the flora may become problematic, especially if the sniper is skilled...

EDIT: Damn... Ninjad by Mercer

Keep the Faith

Drones that catch sight of the bullet and some math software should be able to make a pretty good estimate of where a shot came from. I'm giving thought to investing in a small swarm of drones with lots of sensors to log everything that happens around me for later replay, analysis, datamining and archive comparison to things that happen later in the campaign.

A good idea, but in the immediacy of the moment, not all that useful, unless you are analyzing in real time (which you can do fairly easily, depending upon the situation)... Later replay will not help you against the Sniper...

Keep the Faith

And, your recordings could be used as evidence against you if you're caught.

It's kinda like those idiots who taped themselves shooting people with paintball guns, or the ones who taped themselves destroying houses.

Well, you should rig it so it'll destroy the memory if you're going to get caught. But usually, your gear and the place you're caught are sufficient evidence to put you away anyway.




The mathematics of tracing a bullet back to it's origin aren't all that complex; if you have readings on the trajectory and speed of the bullet, any commlink should be able to make an estimate.

I'd say computing where a bullet came from could be done as a Threshold = Range, Complex Action check with a BulletTrace+Sensor program check for drones, and BulletTrace+Logic for people with a Math SPU or something equivalent.

I've been thinking it would be LOG + Tactics, except that Tactics is a specialization of the Leadership skill and that seems odd to me. Would a knowledge skill be more appropriate here (Ballistics, or something similar)?

We use both ballistics and Tactics as additional Knowledge Skills... the specialty for Leadership in Tactics would apply to get the individuals to FOLLOW your tactical choices, but the Knowledge skill would help you develop them in the first place... (Military Professional Skill would also work too)

Keep the Faith

I'm a little wary making sniper spotting the domain of a knowledge skill when there are active skills that can do the job. (BBB: "They are used primarily for legwork and character development. They occasionally provide information in the game, but have nowhere near the impact that Active skills do.") That's my main reservation there.

Why not LOG + Longarms?

No, I understand... We use it as a complimentary skill to Perception Rolls so it may possibly help narrow down the options from a great many (which is in many ways the province of using Knowledge Skills, as Complimentary rolls)... I would say that you could also use Log + Longarms, but that pool is usually a lot less than the Perception roll and has an even smaller chance of succeeding in my opinion...

But it could definitely work...

Keep the Faith

I would see it as a series of tests. INT+Per+whatev to spot the sniper, but that would likely fail for the reasons provided (high threshold from Infiltration, severly penalized pools). So then it becomes a series of LOG+Tactics and LOG + Longarms to determine the most advantageous places to snipe from, and the ones that match the trajectory of the rounds. Then it becomes, "How do we get there?" Especially if by the time you get there, the sniper has moved to another spot.

I think every war movie has a variation on this scene.

Neat idea! I think I recall that happening in 'Snow Crash' - Hiro's high-tech suit popped up all sorts of information telling him he'd been shot and how, which was played as creeping features and information overload. Yes, computer, I realize I've been shot, thank you. However, if one of the PCs in my little sniper duel had a similar program running, it could well have narrowed down the angle much quicker, especially if they could triangulate after taking a few hits. Let's see, it came from this angle when I was over there, and that angle when I was over here, draw a few lines on the map and...dude's gotta be next to that stump.

I had a much better explained post typed out when the forums died, and I don't have it in me to be quite as detailed a second time. So I'll just give a summary of what I tend to do when I'm running a game and situations like this come out.

Basically, I just use the fundamental rules for weapon ranges. I start by picking a weapon category based upon the environment (I have a really nice little chart in my binder for just this thing). For example, if the runners were standing in the middle of the salt plains on a clear summer day, I'd go with a Sniper Rifle whereas on a city street I'd use a Light Pistol. If it's an insanely busy street, I'd use choose a Taser. Then I'd apply penalties to the Perception Test using those ranges. Anything beyond that range is just too far out of sight unless its blatantly obvious (but I have modifiers for that sort of thing, too).

Vision Magnification works just like it does in combat situations and, if it is being used, it also extends the ranges by half the same amount. Thus someone on a city street using Vision Magnification would stand a chance of spotting an average target at up to 75 meters. Anything beyond that and they're just too far away.

There's a bit more to it than this, but that's the basics of what I do. Most of my house rules tend to be unwieldly.

I would ask that an Int + Per test - at the appropriate thresholds you can spot the sniper, but at certain fixed thresholds, you could spot the general direction of the shot with the information being more specific at higher thresholds.

Then it is a tactics test. For me, it can either be a Int or Log + (whatever) Tactics test, depending on which type of Knowledge skill (most likely either Professional or Street) it is.

I can definitely see it going this way... though I would use the Tactics Knowledge skill (or Military Profession Skill) in place of the Leadership tactics skill in this scenario... Longarms would work as you indicated though...

Keep the Faith

Interesting... But a question...

Why do you tend to make them unwieldy? Why not go for simplicity and ease of play?

Just Curious...

Keep the Faith

Simple rules tend to be fast but bland. Complex rules tend to be slow but detailed. The alchemy becomes making the rules that play as fast as possible while giving you the level of detail you want. That would be my answer.

Makes an odd sort of sense, I guess... But in my opinion, fast and easy rules allow more time for the actual roleplaying portion of the game... Which I tend to enjoy a great deal... a lot of mechanics just tend to get in the way, which is why I like SR4... For even less mechanics and high action, you just can't beat Feng Shui though...

Was just curious...

Keep the Faith

Snipers are not really functional challenges in this sort of game without GM fiat. Either you don't spot them and they kill you from hiding by surprise or you know they are there and they don't.

Which is why you rarely see them in actual play I would imagine... It is way to easy to set up the TPK using a highly skilled Sniper... having been on the receiving end of such a scenario, I know exactly how brutal it is... In the end, the Sniper killed 5 fairly competent individuals and heavily wounded 2 more before the remaining members managed to pull out... it was way brutal, even after we knew what was going on... (average PC Karma Gain at the time was close to 200)

Keep the Faith