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pbangarth
THE SITUATION: Fall 2072, New Liskeard, Algonkian-Manitou Council

In the Ottawa River Valley, north from the old Canadian capital, spreads Lake Temiskaming at the centre of a fertile valley that provides some of the best agriculture between Sudbury and James Bay. This valley lies astride three nations, the United Canadian and American States, the Algonkian-Manitou Council, and Québec. A spur of land that belongs to the Algonkian-Manitou council juts south through this valley, separating the other two nations for hundreds of kilometers. Certainly the economic benefits of having such productive land within their borders figured heavily in the calculations of the old Algonkian Council when the borders were redrawn, as did access to the major highways in the region that carry so much trade among the nations. (Highways 11 and 17 form major parts of the boundary with the UCAS.)

Not all of that trade is legal. Where the borders of three nations come so close to each other, opportunities abound for entrepreneurs who are willing to take risks. The authorities of all three nations patrol this area heavily, but the open farmland is surrounded by dense forest, and those who know the secret paths can make good money.

Félix Monague is a rancher at the north end of the valley, near Round Lake (48 degrees North, 80 degrees West - check Google Earth for pictures and an idea of the lay of the land). He has made a good living for years from cattle and sheep, and is a canny businessman. He knows people all through the valley and beyond, and crosses borders regularly. His herding dogs are the best anywhere, and some say there is magic involved in his connection with them. The police have suspected Félix for years of adding smuggling to his other business endeavours, but he has never been caught.

Of course, the community knows much the police do not. Félix has often had occasion to employ locals in his businesses, legal and otherwise, and he maintains an excellent relationship with the broader community through charitable organizations and through traditional rituals of wealth sharing. He is a pillar of the community. A man would be socially suicidal, if not physically so, to rat on Félix.

The fall season is well under way. Winter's first tendrils have already been felt. Good hunting can be had in Québec, where paranormals still carry high bounties. Hunters need to cross borders without tarrifs and license fees. So do drugs, weapons and technology. Félix has put out his usual, discrete call for some help. He is looking for some good people to do some potentially nasty work.

THE GAME

I am looking for a few PbP players who want to experience the north woods and the wilds, as well as some wild times dodging authorities while carrying contraband. Among other, typical SR talents, the characters should have some of the following skills (the team should have most if not all): outdoors skills, languages of the (broader, international) region, negotiation, paranormal biology, personal local background or strong local connections (for references and referral), and various forms of piloting. The characters will come up against hostile environment and creatures, determined authorities, conniving buyers, and anything else I can dream up. There may be the odd run in Toronto or Montréal.

Félix will be the final arbiter of who makes up the team. He is experienced (and may on rare occasion accompany the team) and knows what he needs. Attrition is possible, so in the off chance that there are more characters available for play than Félix can use at one time... just wait. 'Vacancies' may very well appear.

PCs are to be made using the SR4A rules (see below*), all books, 400 BP. I don't fear any PC, no matter how freaky, but understand the milieu. This is an agricultural community that borders a xenophobic society that pays bounty on things that 'don't look right'. Your vampiric, gnome voodo magician will have a seriously difficult time walking down the street, much less avoiding paranoid authorities. Félix will keep these factors in mind when hiring. I reserve the right to veto anything, even if it is in the books.

And your PC better like border collies.

I will happily reward players who go the extra mile and develop their character's backstory (20-questions-level of depth) and who aid in moving the story along through things like getting to know the region yourself and helping with geography, etc.

I will be sporadically away from my computer between now and New Year's Day, but hope to get something going in January. I have had bad luck as a player with PbP games dying, and would really like to keep this one going, with forewarned breaks for things like holidays, etc.

So... watcha got, people?

*A note on Matrix actions: I want to keep things simple for me. Tests will be LOG + Skill, with hits limited by software rating. This will apply to the opposition as well, of course. Sorry ahead of time to any 'purists' in the crowd.

THE PLAYERS (so far)

Trigger - Old Wolf - Wolf Druid/ Outdoorsman
ravensoracle - JD - Ranch Hand/ Outdoorsman
Foxx - Vixen - Southern girl/ Ex-military/ testing her metal wink.gif
Karoline - Longshot - Surged/ Augmented Hunter

EDIT 31 Dec 09: added PLAYERS so far
ravensoracle
I have been hoping for a game like this for so long. Something out of the city. You can definitely count me in as an extremely eager player. Not sure what type of character I would play yet but will think on it.
Karoline
Sounds like fun. I think I'll make a survivalist of sorts (Survivor Man and Man vs Wild types). Likely to be a sharp shot with a rifle and decent with a knife. How high tech is the area likely to be? Will chrome be on the rare side thematically?
Trigger
I have some awesome ideas for a character for this.... I will have something for you soon. (Probably a talismongering wilderness mage).

Question: Do you allow players to start with a purchased critter from Running Wild?
Karoline
QUOTE (Trigger @ Dec 22 2009, 12:11 AM) *
Question: Do you allow players to start with a purchased critter from Running Wild?


Part of me hopes so because it would be so cool. Part of me hopes not because then I'll be tempted to get RW so I can have a pet falcon.
ravensoracle
OK, I think I am going along the lines similar to a Ranch hand/ Hunter. He can deal with animals, drive the trucks, is a decent sot with a rifle and knows his way around the outdoors. Most likely give him some knowledge skills along the lines of back trails and smuggling routes for the area
pbangarth
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 21 2009, 10:08 PM) *
How high tech is the area likely to be? Will chrome be on the rare side thematically?

Certainly rarer than what you might find in the concentration of a big city. But one could be a homeboy returning from a stint in the military, a girl fresh out of paramedic training hoping to make a go of it in her hometown, a rowdy man who fell in with the wrong crowd .... gimme a story.

QUOTE (Trigger @ Dec 21 2009, 10:11 PM) *
Question: Do you allow players to start with a purchased critter from Running Wild?

I dunno. Weave a tale that makes sense. Félix certainly has critters... two border collies trained to the hilt. And a bunch of sheep and cattle.
pbangarth
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Dec 21 2009, 10:03 PM) *
I have been hoping for a game like this for so long. Something out of the city.

Yeah, me too. I finally bit the bullet and sat on the other side of the table. If we have some good fun here, maybe others will get enthused.
horvagab
Are there any books you could suggest that would be useful for setting? I'm not the greatest on SR geography, especially rural areas. Don't know what I'll play yet, is Tir Tairngare far from there? How would the locals react ot an elf, or maybe a banshee?
Gmoz
Time to watch some nature shows heavily featuring Canada. Sounds like a blast.
Trigger
QUOTE (horvagab @ Dec 22 2009, 03:45 AM) *
Are there any books you could suggest that would be useful for setting? I'm not the greatest on SR geography, especially rural areas. Don't know what I'll play yet, is Tir Tairngare far from there? How would the locals react ot an elf, or maybe a banshee?

The Tir is on the other side of the Country, here.

Elves probably aren't going to be uncommon, as they really aren't uncommon anywhere. A Banshee could be hard to play though due to the game probably not being too sprawl based (that's what it sounds like), so it is going to be hard to feed regularly (if you don't feed on animals. But beware, the animals may be awakened and want to feed on you.)
ravensoracle
You need to make sure Banshees don't have a bounty on their heads in this area also.
BlackHat
Very unique concept. smile.gif Depending on how much free time I have over the next week's holidays, I will try to get something in for consideration.

I'm curious how you see the presence of law enforcement. Part of the writeup makes it sound like the three nations would be patrolling the area heavily (looking for smugglers, I assume), but other parts make it sound more wildernessy where you might be able to get away with some stuff that you couldn't in a big city. I think it could be a fun opportunity to use some gear that you'd normally have a hard time bringing with you to a meet in a AAA neighborhood, but I might be getting the wrong idea about how often our characters would be under the border-patrol's microscope.
Foxx
Seeing as we getting a few die hard survivlist, I think I'll go with the ex-corperate merc train to get the job done no matter the locale. Chrome and trained to take the fight to whoever the former corperate overlords demanded. Of course, they had a falling out and this person decided to relocate; somewhere distant and out of the way. Will do a proper write up once I get it written out.
BlackHat
QUOTE (Trigger @ Dec 22 2009, 05:25 AM) *
The Tir is on the other side of the Country, here.


This map might help too: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/sr4/sr4_namap.pdf

Tir is on the west-coast, between Seattle and California. I think the area this game takes place in would be north-east of Michigan where those three contries (UCAS, AMC, and Quebec) come together.
Dr.Rockso
Sounds interesting. Might throw might hat in depending how my schedule looks. Running near home might be fun cyber.gif
pbangarth
The Algonkian Council became the Algonkian-Manitou Council after the elven Manitou (tribe? Nation? - have to check) lobbied for status. So there will be lots of elves around. I'd be careful about something like a Banshee. You might have a bounty on your head in Québec. And locals may want to collect that bounty by smuggling your hide across the border.

SR4A has a good map in the back. The game will center in the little spur of the A-M Council straight north of Buffalo. Same latitude as Seattle but way east. If you have access to Google Earth, then search for New Liskeard Ontario, and you will zoom in on the game area. There are photos there that will give you an idea of the terrain in the valley and in the forest around.

Hmmm... books for the setting. Shadows of North America has some good stuff on the AMC, in fact reading it just now I am learning some cool stuff, political and otherwise. Native American Nations Vol. 2, while older, has more detail. The Neo-Anarchist's Guide to North America has a good section on Québec, including a small bit on bounties. I thought I saw a list of bounties in some book. I will look for it.

EDIT: Found the bounty list: Shadows of North America, p. 112. Also, Paranormal Animals of North America and Running Wild are good resources.

EDIT2: 50,000 nuyen for a Free Spirit pelt? How do you get a 'pelt' from a Free Spirit? Hmmm... ideas percolate!
ravensoracle
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Dec 22 2009, 10:04 AM) *
Very unique concept. smile.gif Depending on how much free time I have over the next week's holidays, I will try to get something in for consideration.

I'm curious how you see the presence of law enforcement. Part of the writeup makes it sound like the three nations would be patrolling the area heavily (looking for smugglers, I assume), but other parts make it sound more wildernessy where you might be able to get away with some stuff that you couldn't in a big city. I think it could be a fun opportunity to use some gear that you'd normally have a hard time bringing with you to a meet in a AAA neighborhood, but I might be getting the wrong idea about how often our characters would be under the border-patrol's microscope.


One thing to remember if we are going to be smuggling stuff is that it helps a lot if you blend in. Carrying around F items will more likely get you in more trouble out here than in the cities. I mean in the barrens you're expected to be caryying some heavy firepower. Out in the country it's just one more way to stand out. Plus think that most people in the area know each other and word gets around to everyone much quicker. I guess the question to ask here is what is the feel of the game going to lean toward? Pink or Black?

And if we are really going out in the wilderness, you have to really plan on how you're gonna transport some of that gear. Depending on how deep in the woods we go will be the limiting factor as to whether you can have a truck, a horse or motorcyle, or your own shoeleather.

On a side note I put this map together real quick. I think it is the area pbangarth is refering to.

Quick Map


pbangarth
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Dec 22 2009, 10:58 AM) *
One thing to remember if we are going to be smuggling stuff is that it helps a lot if you blend in. Carrying around F items will more likely get you in more trouble out here than in the cities. I mean in the barrens you're expected to be caryying some heavy firepower. Out in the country it's just one more way to stand out. Plus think that most people in the area know each other and word gets around to everyone much quicker. I guess the question to ask here is what is the feel of the game going to lean toward? Pink or Black? And if we are really going out in the wilderness, you have to really plan on how you're gonna transport some of that gear. Depending on how deep in the woods we go will be the limiting factor as to whether you can have a truck, a horse or motorcyle, or your own shoeleather.
Think plaid shirts, baseball caps and pickup trucks. Quads and snowmobiles for the thicker bush. Snowshoes for the really thick stuff in the winter.

QUOTE
On a side note I put this map together real quick. I think it is the area pbangarth is refering to.
Quick Map
Exactly.
pbangarth
OK, this is cute. Our kitten is attacking the mouse pointer on the screen. Hmm... the cuteness is wearing off. Claws and LCD don't mix.
Foxx
Obey the kitten.
BlackHat
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Dec 22 2009, 12:58 PM) *
One thing to remember if we are going to be smuggling stuff is that it helps a lot if you blend in. Carrying around F items will more likely get you in more trouble out here than in the cities. I mean in the barrens you're expected to be caryying some heavy firepower. Out in the country it's just one more way to stand out. Plus think that most people in the area know each other and word gets around to everyone much quicker. I guess the question to ask here is what is the feel of the game going to lean toward? Pink or Black?


That is a good point. I guess I was thinking along the lines of the hint at hunting jobs - where nobody is likely to know if you toss a nice illegal gun in the back of your truck, and take it out into the woods... as opposed to your typical run where you're in a city, and driving around with an AK in your backseat is a bad idea... and pulling it out is out of the question until you're already over your head.

A lot of the games I have played on Dumpshock have started in high-profile areas (I have to admit, I hadn't even thought about the barrens) so it seemed like the relative remoteness of the area might afford you some allowance in terms of not needing to have air-tight alibis and licenses for all your fun toys just to be able to have them on hand for the job.

Another example might be a weapon mount on a vehicle. They are rating F items, and in a city, there is almost no good reason for you to have one installed on your car (meaning PCs pretty much have to take the concealed versions, which push the availability up to high to be usable). In the wilderness, though, where all mannor of paranormal critters could come attack you while you're driving through or making camp... it wouldn't take much explaining as to why you might have a weapon-mount on your 4x4.

*shrugs* But, yeah, in terms of smuggling, once you reached the border, it would still draw attention, and probably garuntee that your truck gets searched thoroughly.
ravensoracle
I just wish the designers wouldn't have short changed the sporting rifles like they did. But that is a discusion for another time. The hunting jobs, especially for paranormals require some heavy firepower but the sniper rifles are all F items so that limits hunting with assault rifles. Which fluff wise doesn't fit as well as a rifle.

I guess what I am saying is if you are going to have F items, you may want to have legal backups for when we have to do the smuggling part. Of course it all depends on what and how we're smuggling the stuff too.
ravensoracle
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 22 2009, 12:06 PM) *
Think plaid shirts, baseball caps and pickup trucks. Quads and snowmobiles for the thicker bush. Snowshoes for the really thick stuff in the winter.


You say it's Fall in the game. Just how much snow would be on the ground and how soon before it gets thick? I think we all need to know to adjust our gear selection.
Karoline
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Dec 22 2009, 07:55 PM) *
You say it's Fall in the game. Just how much snow would be on the ground and how soon before it gets thick? I think we all need to know to adjust our gear selection.


Good question. Also, is there even a snowmobile of any kind in SR4? I can't say I recall one off hand, though a hover vehicle could certainly manage it.

From what I know you shouldn't have to worry too much about snow until November, but once it comes it is going to be huge amounts from December to January and it will start to slow down (but stay on the ground) by around February. Expect to start thawing out around April.

Could be wrong, I only have a vague knowledge of areas about the same latitude but further west.

Oh, and why would we need Sniper Rifles to hunt paras? For the most part they don't have armor that requires that sort of weapon to get through, or am I wrong? My paranormal critter knowledge is minimal at best.
Foxx
Whats the worry about the F items? Its Shadowrun, illegal is what we do best.
Karoline
QUOTE (Foxx @ Dec 22 2009, 11:26 PM) *
Whats the worry about the F items? Its Shadowrun, illegal is what we do best.


Especially among a group of smugglers wink.gif

Edit: Going to do a bit of work on my character before I go to bed. Should have something made up by tomorrow mid-day as I'll have the house to myself for a few hours while my parents go grocery shopping.

Edit2: I won't be covering matrix at all likely, but just how common is it going to be? Paracritters sure aren't going to have anything hackable. I'd imagine it could be some use in dealing with the border guard or if we break into a facility for any reason, but otherwise it seems likely a dedicated hacker wouldn't have much to do.
pbangarth
I'm already getting characters emailed to me! Awesome! Fell free to post here or PM, whichever is more comfortable for you. Eventually, a team should know each other's strengths.

Rest assured there is no hurry. Feel free to work on your character ideas. I leave tomorrow for a little Christmas vacation, and will connect to the internet as the opportunities present themselves. I will be home and well connected on the 30th of December. Then there's New Year's Eve. Don't feel I have abandoned you if I don't post for a day or two.

Climate change issues aside, winter conditions in that part of the world can come late, or come early. Everybody who lives in that neck of the woods has a wide range of clothes available by the time autumn rolls around. I grew up hundreds of kilometers to the south of the game location, and I have a photo of me when I was 5 standing in over a meter of snow. It was May 15th. I also have photos of green Christmases. It is parallel in latitude to Seattle, but don't expect west coast temperance to apply in the middle of the continent. When it gets cold, you will freeze your nuts off. Even if you don't have any to begin with. And two meters of snow accumulation over the course of the winter is not rare.

Hmm... no snowmobiles. I will have to figure something out. Or if any of you have an idea, please feel free to contribute.

Some paranormal animals have hardened armor. Some out of the way places have free spirits. Some smugglers run into border patrols in armored vehicles. AP has its uses. There is also the PJSS Elephant Rifle. With a little armor skill or chargen BP spent, I bet that could even become SA, no?

Someone who only hacks may have a lot of down time.

In the first day or so of game time there should be no problem with F rated items. As I figure out what run you will be going on, that may change. You will know when to be discreet, won't you?

Vehicle mounts for weapons? A good story might help with that one. Let's not go overboard with guided missiles and things, though, OK?
Trigger
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 23 2009, 01:30 AM) *
Hmm... no snowmobiles. I will have to figure something out. Or if any of you have an idea, please feel free to contribute.


Actually, the equivalent of a snowmobile in SR is in Arsenal on Pg. 108, the Evo-Falcon. It was made as a replacement for sled dogs, is used in the northern wilderness', and is basically an off road bike on one giant track. Also, it has a standard multi-fuel engine, so it is perfect for those places that don't get a lot of gas trucks coming their way.

Personally, the character I am working on is going to be riding around in a Thundercloud Morgan with added Extreme Environment Adaptation for the snow. And just because it comes with a external weapon mount doesn't mean that it has to have a weapon mounted there.
Trigger
I sent in my character sheet and 20 questions a couple of minutes ago, but I wanted to post it up here too so that anyone else could check it out also if they want.

Elyas Mingan aka Old Wolf:

[ Spoiler ]
Dr.Rockso
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 23 2009, 12:30 AM) *
Climate change issues aside, winter conditions in that part of the world can come late, or come early. Everybody who lives in that neck of the woods has a wide range of clothes available by the time autumn rolls around. I grew up hundreds of kilometers to the south of the game location, and I have a photo of me when I was 5 standing in over a meter of snow. It was May 15th. I also have photos of green Christmases. It is parallel in latitude to Seattle, but don't expect west coast temperance to apply in the middle of the continent. When it gets cold, you will freeze your nuts off. Even if you don't have any to begin with. And two meters of snow accumulation over the course of the winter is not rare.


That's about spot on for the climate here at least. I'm a bit east of where the game starts. The climate is fickle and weird, as you say. We're especially screwed if another ice storm rolls around though eek.gif

Karoline
One small note that kinda jumped at me for Old Wolf is the snuff addiction. I'm not sure that snuff qualifies for addictions as it specifies that it has to be something particularly harmful and that things like tobacco and alcohol didn't count (as I recall).
horvagab
I'm having an idea for a char: an orc who's a seattle or some other metropolis else native, grew up in the barrens, and was awarded a scholarships for college, either Urban Brawl or footbal,, dunno if Brawl is played at college or not. He met his wife there, and after a game accident, he cost the team the game, on purpose actually, since he bet against his own team. This was the nest egg they use, to establish their new life in the wilderness. The wife is a shaman, whose the local healer, but she's not working too much since they their kids, about 4 or 5 of them. Primary job probably tracker or guide, and he needs some extra cash for the family upkeep. Will an off-road bike be viable in the terrain? I want him to retain some of his old ganger image, with some rural trappings nyahnyah.gif
Dr.Rockso
I think an off-road bike would be great for that kind of terrain up until winter. Then you might want to switch to a snow mobile wink.gif
ravensoracle
QUOTE (Trigger @ Dec 23 2009, 12:25 AM) *
Personally, the character I am working on is going to be riding around in a Thundercloud Morgan with added Extreme Environment Adaptation for the snow. And just because it comes with a external weapon mount doesn't mean that it has to have a weapon mounted there.


You and I are thinking along the same lines. I had the same combo picked out. It won't work as well in the thicker brush but a snowmobile won't be able to get much further.
ravensoracle
Here is my character sheet. Give it a quick once over and tell me if anything stands out that needs to be changed


JD's Character Sheet

[ Spoiler ]


Kerenshara's Long Questionaire

[ Spoiler ]


Edit: Added Melee weapons, dropped Stim Patches
Trigger
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 23 2009, 01:46 PM) *
One small note that kinda jumped at me for Old Wolf is the snuff addiction. I'm not sure that snuff qualifies for addictions as it specifies that it has to be something particularly harmful and that things like tobacco and alcohol didn't count (as I recall).

Well, Snuff isn't just Tobacco, it is a combination of Nicotine (from Tobacco), THC (from Marijuana), and Salicin (from Willow Bark, aka the active ingredient in Aspirin). It is in the drug section of Arsenal, and it isn't the only drug that doesn't have an effect when it wears off. The others are Betel (hey +1 Perception and 5BP for free, no side effects, can never get worse than Mild, wow thanks), Bliss (outside of the -1 Reaction while using it, there is no side effect when it wears off), and Psyche (yay +1 Logic, +1 Intuition and no side effects). Snuff isn't as bad as Betel or Psyche as it tells the GM that if the players uses the drug enough then the GM is free to apply modifiers to Fatigue tests (which I completely expect).
pbangarth
Got the updated Old Wolf and Ranch Hand.
Trigger
Oh yeah, for everyone else, I changed Old Wolf around a bit, got rid of the pet wolf and redistributed some stuff. Here is the revised Old Wolf:

[ Spoiler ]

Karoline
Ah, I didn't realize it was in the book as a drug. For some reason the drugs section isn't one that I know particularly well. Raven's character looks a heck of a lot like the character I'm working on actually nyahnyah.gif Oh well, I'll just have to see where I can make some changes to stand out besides personality.

Oh, and meant to ask earlier, how would you handle having something like a cabin in the wilderness? Generally not connected to 'basic necessities' and so on. Not entirely sure about the concept, but figured I'd ask as I'm flipping back and forth between what kind of personality I want.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 24 2009, 07:36 AM) *
Ah, I didn't realize it was in the book as a drug. For some reason the drugs section isn't one that I know particularly well. Raven's character looks a heck of a lot like the character I'm working on actually nyahnyah.gif Oh well, I'll just have to see where I can make some changes to stand out besides personality.

Oh, and meant to ask earlier, how would you handle having something like a cabin in the wilderness? Generally not connected to 'basic necessities' and so on. Not entirely sure about the concept, but figured I'd ask as I'm flipping back and forth between what kind of personality I want.


A local may very well have a hunting cabin in the woods. Or, if wealthier, then something on the lake.
Karoline
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Dec 24 2009, 11:19 AM) *
A local may very well have a hunting cabin in the woods. Or, if wealthier, then something on the lake.


Alright, and what about in-debt? Do you believe it needs to be bought off with karma when the nuyen is repaid?
ravensoracle
QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 24 2009, 08:36 AM) *
Oh, and meant to ask earlier, how would you handle having something like a cabin in the wilderness? Generally not connected to 'basic necessities' and so on. Not entirely sure about the concept, but figured I'd ask as I'm flipping back and forth between what kind of personality I want.



Rural Home, Green Plan, No Neighbors should cover it pretty well.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Dec 24 2009, 12:47 PM) *
Alright, and what about in-debt? Do you believe it needs to be bought off with karma when the nuyen is repaid?



You are getting money and BP out of it. Why should you get away with only paying for half of the flaw?

EDIT: I always ran it that if you paid of the money you'd get another Flaw of equal value until you paid off the Karma.
ravensoracle
OK, so I was bored and had to get away from the kids for a bit. While I was taking a few minutes to work on my character I decided to play around with the map a little. I wanted to see exactly where the SR map overlayed the map in Google. So this is what I came up with. If you guys want to place any places of interest on here PM me with your e-mail and I will add you as collaberators. Anyways, enjoy.

Google map
Karoline
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Dec 24 2009, 03:12 PM) *
You are getting money and BP out of it. Why should you get away with only paying for half of the flaw?

EDIT: I always ran it that if you paid of the money you'd get another Flaw of equal value until you paid off the Karma.


Yeah, but if you have to pay back the karma when you pay back the nuyen then you gain nothing and lose nuyen, thus making the quality utterly useless as you don't gain any benefit from it, which is the point of a negative quality, that you gain some BP in exchange for a penalty of some kind. In this case you would be gaining BP in exchange for losing nuyen. If you have to pay back karma then you gain no net BP (since you lose it when you pay back the karma essentially) and still have the disadvantage of having to pay back the nuyen.

So the options are you don't pay karma, in which case you gain BP in exchange for a nuyen debt, or you do pay karma and you gain nothing in exchange for a nuyen debt. This is why I always ask, because one interpretation (Which seems depressingly common on the boards) makes the quality useless. I do admit the other way can make it somewhat of an overly attractive option, because once you've suffered that nuyen loss there is no lasting penalty.
ravensoracle
With any other flaw you have to work in game to get rid of the flaw, many state so in their description. Many of them qould require some effort and possibly nuyen in game to remove. My point is you are gaining more than just BP, which is unique, from a flaw. Yes you have the debt and paying that off is part of the flaw. But you got more money for character gen, all you're doing is getting extra nuyen in character gen from whatever you are going to make. But it is also a flaw. You got BP from it as well. If you only pay nuyen to get rid of the flaw then you are getting the BP gained from it for free.

Karoline
QUOTE (ravensoracle @ Dec 24 2009, 11:14 PM) *
With any other flaw you have to work in game to get rid of the flaw, many state so in their description. Many of them qould require some effort and possibly nuyen in game to remove. My point is you are gaining more than just BP, which is unique, from a flaw. Yes you have the debt and paying that off is part of the flaw. But you got more money for character gen, all you're doing is getting extra nuyen in character gen from whatever you are going to make. But it is also a flaw. You got BP from it as well. If you only pay nuyen to get rid of the flaw then you are getting the BP gained from it for free.


Except that you have to pay back more nuyen than you were given in the first place. Pretend instead that the flaw was this:

For every 5BP you gain from the flaw, you start with 2,500 nuyen of debt which accumulates 30% interest every month.

If that was the flaw, would you say the person has to pay karma to be able to pay off their debt? If not, then you shouldn't expect the regular In-Debt quality to be paid back, because it is exactly the same net effect.

The biggest thing is that this quality never mentions having to pay karma to pay off the debt, while every single other quality that can be bought off by various in-game methods always say that you must pay karma or the method doesn't work (Check out stuff like blind and the gene treatment cures for allergies.)

Edit: I'll throw up something on the main board, though I'm sure it has been asked before.

Edit2: My poll/thread on the topic if anyone wants to weigh in. Gives PB some opinions to look over if he'd like and see what the DS community in general thinks.
pbangarth
Having troubles with network connection at the hotel. Will connect and comment at length when I can.
Foxx
Okay, here is Valerie 'Vixen' Vashnevskaya. Former CAS Ranger officer turned shadowrunning bounty hunter. In the twenty questions format

[ Spoiler ]
pbangarth
OK, thank you for submissions so far. JD, Old Wolf and Vixen look like excellent characters for what I have in mind. Very canny selection of gear, such as software suites to reduce the need for a decker. I like to see so much being spent on Skills. Interesting to see one PC loves EVO Corporation, another hates it. Yummy! I think there will be a lot of fun with these characters. The work you have put into their backgrounds will make my job much easier, too.

I have gone through the character sheets and bios, and have a few technical or background notes for players to check. I have not gone through the gear item by item to see if spending is correct. Too much like accounting for me!

JD/Ranch Hand: Ravensoracle, your breakdown of BP actually does add to 400, but you have Qualities listed as -30 BP when they should be -25 BP. Having said that, it appears to me that you have allocated 150 BP to Skills but have only spent 142 BP. Another "relevant language" might be a NAN language. No one has Japanese or Spanish or Nahuatl. Just some ideas. Please pick an area to which your Local Geography Knowledge Skill applies. You have a R10 Armor program. I believe R6 is the max at chargen. Can you give a more specific location for your home? You didn't answer the question about JD's curiosity. I'm curious.

Old Wolf: Trigger, It appears as if you have allocated 420 BP for Old Wolf. Also, you allocated 130 BP for Skills, but only spent 126 BP. I'm curious, why is Alan Ryman not a contact?

Vixen: Foxx, I am assuming you allocated 45 BP to Gear? Your fake SIN and Licence at R6 are above the availability restriction of 12.
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