If you don't want assumption made, then give more detailed information. Currently the only solid information that you've provided about your team is that:

If all your mages and deckers either have a high body or dermal sheathing, that's seems pretty twinkie to me, even with two or three pages of background.

If you don't want to provide more detailed information on the runners, that's fine, but that means we're going to have to fill in the details ourselves.

Opening up each post with saying "oh, this gives me something to think about" and then proceeding to deconstruct every idea proposed to you is not accepting suggestions or advice. It is showing how you are really not interested in changing at all, and trying to prove to everyone else how right you are about not having to change anything.

Even when you have admitted previously that your character are optimized for various aspects of Shadowrunning? You have yet to prove to me that you do otherewise. Even 100 pages of background does not count when it is not reflected in the character sheets or in playing style. Do the character ever do anything that is not a job handed to them by a Johnson or a Fixer?

Even though you're the one claiming you can't just introduce higher end threats because it's either not realistic in some way or too much work for the GM?

Oh, wait, like I have not submitted pages of suggestions and ideas already. Oh, I forget, you simply sat there and write about how they won't work for your game.

And I have yet to hear you specify what will work for your game.

This stuff has been addressed before, but I'll go over it one more time. Most of these "problems" you present are challenges the characters should be resolving through gaming or things the GM should be working out plot wise.

Wait, I thought you wanted higher end challenges? You're changing your mind now? Or are you saying you want all the thrill and excitement of a gun battle with groups like Tir Ghosts and Red Samurai without having deal with the security or legwork entailed for those sorts of operations?

Try just telling the enemy all through the run "sorry man, this is just a job"?

See my remark to problem number 1 above. If you want to run with the big dogs, then be prepared once in a while to get bit on your…

Use friend of a friend? Use etiquette and bribery to score new contacts? Having your weapons specialist character build weapons that can be broken down or pass through customs (You do have some one on the team that likes building and repairing weapons don't you? It's one of those outside interest things I was talking about earlier)? Have a decker or underworld contact forge passports with weapons permits? Having some one with the merit friends in distant lands? Ask your Johnson for a hookup? Role-play being visitors to a foreign land trying to score some heat?

Making runs that require more then one session to resolve generally helps. If the run takes 4 gaming sessions to complete, that is that much more time the GM has to come up with the next one. Requiring the characters to sign a contract or strike a deal with a contact of some sort helps as well. Present the run as a favor for a contact. Sure, the players can ditch the run, but they may loss their contact over it. Use hooks for the characters background (family, friends, goals the characters wants to accomplish) to get them involved (your characters do have plot hooks written to them, don't they?). Flaws, such as dependants, compulsions, or obsessions, requests or demands from initiatory orders or visions from magical sources, or even simple blackmail or bribery can be used.

It really sounds to me that, based on "problems" you have presented here, you are really trying to get away with having conflicts with high end forces without all the other associated baggage that normally goes with a Shadowrun against them. Like you want to make everything easier so that the only really challenge you are having to deal with is how deal with this special op force or that one. If that's what you are looking for then that's fine, you can run Shadowrun like a war game if you want. Why even bother with bringing realism into it at all? If the game you want to play is DMZ with 3rd edition Shadowrun rules, then go for it. If you really must have a "realistic" reason for these combat exercises, then play a group of special-forces operatives yourself. Your missions are provided by the government and each week you have another target you have to go up against. Or you could playa group of mercenaries being sent from hostile zone to hostile zone, taking part in various Desert Wars competitions, or any number of other mercenary related jobs.

My meaning is not that you are actually blackmailing the corps, but taking out insurance. One of your key objectives when doing legwork during a run is not to be double crossed by your Johnson. So what do you do? You find out where exactly he's coming from. who he actually represents, what his hidden agenda is. This information is all part of legwork and should be available to you unless it is all part of some metaplot.

According to the Corp Download, certain corps are less hesitant to identify themselves to the runners (eg. Ares or Mitsuhama through their Yakuza subsidiaries).

If you were discreet, the corps would know that you know, and you know that they know you know, you are a professional and they would know that as long as they do not threaten you, you would keep it strictly on a business basis. It is when they allow things to get personal, that you will pull out the stops. And of course, since the one to rock the boat would have been that corp exec, I'm sure there are other equally powerful people who would like the status quo restored.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled arguments.

Sorry. It has degenerated into a kind of chess match between Sable and me, hasn't it?

But some of his suggestion made sense: Perhaps you could shift your focus to some merc jobs(as opposed to shadowrunning). Maybe you could inject some Ultimates into your campaign, that way it could provide a plausible explanation why they were suckered into taking the job - "it looked ok, but actually a dragon was behind the scenes pulling the strings" etc.

Nice of you to describe your post ahead of time.

What game are you playing? Nobody buys gun barrels, you just mill a new one using your firearm B/R skills, or have the gunbunny do it since Street Samurai frequently take such skills.

You're still not thinking. 98% of household dust is skin flakes. At any given crime scene you'll have to compare billions of DNA samples against all the employees at the building, every person who's gone inside within the last few years (Since skin flakes can keep an unholy length of time if dust mites don't eat them), and everybody those people have had physical contact with before entering since skin flakes can rub off on somebody else and hitch a ride. In short, using skin flakes your evidence is pre-contaminated and useless and even if you could use it it will narrow your suspect list by eliminating only people who have never been in Seattle.

The same is true of fibers, so you found so fibers an lab analysis tells you they came from Form-Fitting Body Armor? Great, that eliminates .02% of all Shadowrunners. Fibers are only a help when you already have a suspect list of perhaps a half dozen people and you can compare their clothes to the fibers, since all Shadowrunners tend to fit within a couple of profiles you can't possibly use them in most cases, the Shadowrunner's all have a motive so you can't narrow things down, the 'Star is screwed before they ever begin.

You misunderstand. I didn't say they couldn't do it, I said they couldn't afford to. They are a corp and work for money, losing men and tons of hours in a hellish downtown militarized zone is completely anti-profit. They can't afford it.

Actually MiTS says there are fewer awakened Shadowrunners than even awakened bums on the street but you are right about this, players almost never pay attention to the metaplot's numbers when building their characters, and GMs have to do the same to compensate.

Bullcrap. Check the FBI's CIUS (Crime Index, United States). In 1995 65% of murders were solved by an arrest. In 2002, it had dropped significantly. Governments like to pretend otherwise to fool naive civilians but the numbers tell another story.

Perhaps it is because it is a little hard to arrest Mr Bin Laden? Maybe when they finally get the bugger, the number can make a big jump.

That would be like arresting Charles Mason for the attempted murder of Gerald Ford.

[Sorry for off-topicing. But: He started it! ]

Um, there was a wholesale change of argument here on your part, you originally said "100 years ago" which is a wholesale different argument than "1995" which was 9 years ago. Thats like comparing Apples to Fords.

Page number reference? and this is still false logic because there are more likely several times more homeless on the street in Redmond alone that the entire shadowrunning community inclusing wannabees. That's not an impressive example, not is it surprising.

There are rules for Lone Star going into Z zones and what it takes for them to do so and what they do when they do go. It happens, there just has to be a good reason. Check the Lone Star Sourcebook and New Seattle.

A gun barrel, espcially for pistols is not really just a round tube that bulles go through that can be made in 10 minutes. It is a decent amount more complicated and involved than that. Furthermore I have never, ever had a character take the B/R skill necessary to make them, not spend the cash and facility space for the Firearms Shop or Facility necessary to machine a gun barrel from scratch. I also rarely if ever have heard of a character taking skills like that, even on these forums. Typically that is what contacts are for.

The whole tangent on skin flakes is irrelevant to the topic we are discussing, we are not talking about "any given crime scene", we are talking about Breaking and entering typically ina secure corporate environment in which all the workers already have DNA profiles, which they have to have in order to have a sin. Overcomplication of a scenario is a good way to make an argument that sounds good but is really a house of cards.

Again, Bullcrap. History is history. I merely used 1995 because you can easily find the FBI's CIUS online for that year and compare it to this year's, since despite your association with the police you appear to be deficient in history.

Page 13 MitS. But as I already conceded this point I'll say no more.

And trying to gather evidence will never be a good reason, which was my first point. Trying to get a very high-end suspect, maybe. Trying to figure out who the suspect is? Absurd.

Indeed it is more complicated, which is why you actually need Firearms B/R. I would note at least two of the standard Archetype sample characters have Weaponry B/R skills. While you personally may have never taken those skills, lots of people do, particularly gunbunnies who tend to have karma to burn and like the idea of putting custom grips on all their guns.

In other words you read my argument, can't defeat it, and so you want to ignore it. Let's go over the facts again.

Skin flakes make up over 90% of household dust particles anywhere humans go. They are eaten by mites and get mixed up with each other with the slightest breeze. Every person who has ever entered that room has left skin flakes in it, so you have to compare your dubiously mixed up and contaminated evidence against every employee, customer, manager, etc. Since skin flakes can last for years, you have to compare them for every person who's entered the building in a decade. But wait, skin flakes can hitch a ride on clothes, so you must compare everybody they've had contact with. Let's look at your contamination rate for a typical employee:

Morning: Employee kisses his wife and kids and heads to work. On the way out he gives a friendly neighbor a high-five.
Four extra people's DNA.

Lunch: Employee goes to McHugh's for lunch. He picks up a bit of dust of his shirt sleeve when he slots his credstick, picking up an unknowable number of skin flakes. He also gets some from the server when he picks up his tray. The place is crowded so he brushes against two people on the way to an empty spot and keeps bumping elbows with the people on his left and right.
A minimum of Six extra people's DNA. Quite possible several dozen in a crowded restraunt.

On his way back to work he helps an old lady cross the street before getting on his bus, where he again is bumped by people on all sides. That Rat Shaman smells like he hasn't showered in a year. A baby sitting behind him grabs his hair with a chocolate covered hand and the mother apologizes profusely and touches him in the process of trying to clean out the chocolate. A beggar grabs his leg and tries to get some money as he walks into his building.
5 More people's DNA.

Just from a fairly brief portion of one day our wageslave has contaminated the crime scene with the skin flakes of 15 other people. At least 11 of them will be 11 different people every day. Now consider how this will progress over a month, now from a single employee you've got the DNA of over 300 people in your building from one employee. And that's per employee, how many get to go into this room? 15? 20? Now for each month you've got 6,000 suspects. Of course some people, notably the rich managers, won't have as much contact with the poor. But for every Howard Hughes there's a Ricky Ratman who's bringing in the DNA of 3 dozen squatters on his borrowed shirt and pants.

The math is simply not on your side friend, Forensic evidence is of very limited use in real life, police have been served far more ably by the phone book, which can be used to beat prisoners but not leave visible bruising.

They don't use books any more, you have to hit 'em with the whole computer terminal.

As to the problem at hand, it seems that you have been running the same break in steal the prototype runs over and over that could get boring for anybody. my suggestion is to take a month or six and wright up your own campaign using some of the truly wacky elements of the SR universe. Look through Threats, T2, Awakened Lands, MITS Corp Download, DOTSW and find the aspects you like and see if you can make a story behind them.
As for the PC's ditching runs, it's OK to lead them around by the nose if you do it right.
Johnson: you decline the run? well that's unfortunate. very unfortunate for Lassie and Little Timmy
PC.04: You threaten Little Timmy!? I kill you!!
J: No not me. you see Aztech's new gene therapy requires country raised white boys and exeptionaly smart Border Collies. So you see it's in your own best interest to take the job...
This may seem contrived that all of the players backgrounds work into this trap but it's really nothing a Dragon, Immortal Elf, Elder Free Spirit, the Xchange couldn't work out. Just my thoughts

I'm doing just that with my players. C'mon. Just try an' refuse the run.

(Players, don't read or I kill.)

Your assumption of an equally well oiled team is valid only if that team has trained together and has worked together before. By having worked together before I mean that they must have responded to various situations and know how each other will react. It takes at least 2 full gaming sessions (1 full run) to gell together.

Once there is some consistency(at least to the runners) to the way the team reacts, they are very difficult to take down.

A question I ask myself when creating sec guards are whether they have worked together before. Maybe they were training buddies at the corp academy? Or was one of them transfered from another facility? Or did their sec manager just got transfered in and now they have the "brains not knowing how the hands and feet will react" situation? Or did that guy's partner got wasted during last week's break in? These factors make it very inconducive for the security team to gell. So for the most parts, I will sometimes make a sec guard block his buddy's LOS, step in the way of the sec rigger's drone's heavy weapons, etc.

Attrition in the security business is high, look at the security companies nowadays. They hire cheap, provide minimum training and lousy equipment for the most part, any sec company will have at least one of these factors. I do not see how that will change in the future.

On the other hand, there is the minor detail that corporate security guards are specifically trained and equipped to counter well-oiled shadowrun teams (the single most common threat in the Sixth World to the assets they are assigned to protect), even better equipped and more skillful runners. Whether it be by tactics, numbers, area lockdowns, passive and automated defenses, etc, security guards (don't make the mistake of comparing them with today's rent-a-cops like torturi is doing) are trained to make use of every resource at their disposal (human and otherwise) to stop the runners.

That is why stealth should be imperative in a shadowrun. Lose the edge of concealment and surprise and runners should be screwed, the odds are just against them - if they aren't your GM is playing the sec guards wrong or you're playing an excepcionally high-powered and unbalanced campaign (I say unbalanced because your experienced veterans should probably not be pulling penny jobs -minor labs, low-level extractions and datasteals, etc - but being hired to hit secure corporate targets which have well-equipped, tightly coordinated and above-average trained security staff.

This is what they do for a living. This is why corps put them through intensive training programs (unlike regular rent-a-cops) - just check Corporate Security Handbook. This is why the corps place thousands of dollars of gear in their hands and place millions of dollars of equipment and material under their guard.
Plus they screw up they lose their jobs, their reputations and their livelihoods (not a nice thing in the dystopic Sixth World). The site sec-coordinator screws up once, he likely won't get to do it again (and he knows it). Torturi is also mistaken, many megacorp (Ares, S-K, MCT and Renraku to name just a few biggies) crosstrain their security forces with their armed forces (Corp Download, Corp Security Handbook and SOTA63) and even complement security staff with mercs in highly volatile areas.

Sec guards and (more importantly) their coordinators are intelligent and capable human beings who are not going to throw themselves in harm's way by running up to the enemy and shooting it out; not when they are especifically trained to counter this sort of threat. They will set up chokepoint firezones. They will lockdown every corridor and room they are not using, blocking off and sealing areas (at the very least it will slow the runners progress). They will push their Host(s)' into Alert status. They will call off-site Matrix, Response Team and Magical support. In practice they will will be Holding an Action around the next five corners behind max. cover and Aiming not for a specific target - which isn't there yet- but to fill an area with Suppressive Fire at the first sight of movement (meaning they'll even be able to get the drop on wired runners). They will use directional flash paks and flashgrenades (and after SOTA63 even reuthenium wall displays). They will use smoke and neurogas grenades when necessary (especially against mages)). They will use delaying tactics whenever possible.

They will not rush to the scene of a breakin in groups of 2 or 3 men. They will not expose themselves unnecessarily to enemy fire. They will not charge/rush an obviously superior foe (any team with a mage for instance). They will not hold their ground against superior firepower unless it is a latch ditch effort (They will fallback and/or circle round somehow).

The runners are making a stand? Chuck multiple flashpacks and flashgrenades at them (or better yet lower the lights so low-light capable runners switch to that and then throw-impact triggered flashgrenades round the corner)! Then shoot them up from behind heavy cover or the slots of mobile barricades.
The runners are plowing through your men? Lock security doors and electrify them, saturate the area with Neurostun (or an Air Elemental's Powers) and wait (they either lose to the gas or later to the lack of oxygen, all you have to do is be patient).
Runners are too powerful? Box them into a room or corridor with suppressive fire (corridors are only a couple of meters wide at best, multiple security guards should have no problem saturating one with an almost continuous stream of Suppressive Fire - this doesn't have to hit but woe to the runner that steps into the hail of lead). Keep the runners busy and locked down until backup arrives (High Threat Response unit should be onsite in 10 mins max).
Have your computer ping your roving patrolmen every 5 minutes with a radiocode, codeword response expected otherwise you go on alert (if the facililty is extra-secure there might be a continuous radio feed of the guard's "health" status (using elementary sensors) to the security board, someone's heartbeat suddenly spikes, slows too much or stops and you go on alert (this has the added bonus that if anyone uses a jammer within the radio field you immediately know because you lose the signal to some of your men).
Runners are armed to bear and too big for your men to take down? Tell your sec mage to have his fire elemental(s) streak to the enemies location and engulf the guy with the biggest guns (he should back up the spirit(s) just in case there is astral support and not allow the spirit to be blocked or get caught up fighting, the elemental can even take a few wounds he's not there to fight, then the secmage can pull out and watch the fireworks as the runner's ammo cooks off).

Actually no, its not what they're trained to do. If you've been in any Service you would know better.

Let me ask you this then - Who but shadowrunners (and their corporate-affiliated black ops equivalents) are going to hit the assets you are guarding? Who are you especifically trained and equipped to stop? Who else could pose a threat and be interested in a secure corporate instalation? Why are you there at all?

If security staff didn't stand a chance of protecting a site and going up against this kind of threat the corps wouldn't use them. They would simply concentrate their most coveted assets in one or two sites worldwide and put them under the protection of a couple of high-powered FireWatch/Red Samurai/whatever companies.

And yes, you are correct, runners don't hit targets every day (although you'd do well to figure the economics and turnaround of a city with even 20 shadowteams playing the market); but that doesn't mean security staff aren't trained to defend themselves efficiently and effectively when they do. None of the tactics I describe above should be beyond the capacity and training of most security forces guarding vital sites. In fact I have even gone into the high-end integrated tactics a well-trained and equipped security force could use, just the run-of-the-mill stuff guys down at generic Mitshuhama Research Lab 2355-b would use in any given emergency.

Negative! You are dead wrong! If sec guards are so well trained and so well-equipped as to be comparable to say the Marine Embassy details or even the Federal Marshals, then let me ask you: Do you know how expensive that is? You think it is economically viable option to defend all your facilities to that extent?

The last time I heard the US government was losing money. I do not see a for-profit corp spending those amounts of money. Also here's a news flash: Who controls/or are closer to the finances of a company? The sec guards or the accoutants? You think the accountants would want to cut the finance department or the security department? Why are you having so much training? Why did you buy so many weapons? Did it matter in this or that intrusion of the facility? You spent so much money in training yet you are being intruded. Where is the returns on the investment on security? We are still being stolen from!

I don't think you have ever been the security/military business before. Or rather not been to a budget session in the business.

With regards to the highlighted portion of your post, your sec guards are trained just enough that if the opposing Johnson goes cheap and hires a bunch of rank newbies or off the street gangers, they can handle it, not against real pros. And since you already did say that those tactics were the ones employed by the well-trained, I really do not see your point.

However, it is still your game but I think I've made my points.

First, I'm using canon references and I'm backed by material in several sourcebooks (namely Corporate Security Handbook, Lone Star and Corp Download amongst others).

FYI - A fully trained specialist soldier costs the US Army 10k to 12k dollares not counting gear. A rank and file infantryman costs around 8,000 dollares. 4-5000 for your average National Guardsman over the course of 4 years.

Even if it "loses" money (which is a silly thing to say since by that logic all government spending is a "loss") on it I don't see the US stinting on either. There are reasons why and they apply just as well for megacorps as they do for governments.

Well, it's a choice between having a security budget of 10 billion nuyen worldwide divied up amongst the operating overhead of multiple divisions or risk losing invaluable assets, personnel and technology worth many times that to your competitors. It's called an "arms race". If you don't do it you won't be able to keep up with the competition that does...

Man do you need a primer in high finance and the business world.

Well the only possible answer to your question is: neither. The guys on the Board of Directors (or at most the shareholders) decide stuff like this independently of what either the accountants and the guards want. That's probably the worst counterargument I've ever seen.

Before they cut security costs, they'd cut their military assets. But the point is they don't have to cut either, they're that rich! Defense is as integral to doing corporate business in 2063 as it is for national politics today. Frag, Ares has more than 5,000 men (those cross-trained guys I mentioned before) in CFS alone.

Sheesh, you really do need some insight into big business. I have no idea where you dug up all these misconceptions about how budgets are decided in multinational corporations.

Plus, you're mistakenly reasoning like a small size security company, you're not thinking like a megacorp that has more money and assets to protect than most modern countries (at least in the Sixth World).

Let me clarify something that you don't seem to have grasped. In the Sixth World Megacorps have full-fledged defense budgets. Megacorps have aircraft carrier groups and submarines. Megacorps field SOTA-equipped military divisions. Megacorps have orbital weapon platforms and nukes. Megacorps have multi-million dollar cyberzombies, combat robots and Spec Ops forces.

What's the cost of a fully rigger-equipped, multi-drone suite, automated defense guns and turrets, monofilament electric fence, paracritters, pressure sensor, laser FAB-reinforced walls, multi-spectrum camera system, central security control and 20-man well-trained security staff in 40 sites across the world compared to that? (which probably encompases less security than how Corp Download describes MCTs zero zones)

Of course, smaller corps can't afford all this, so they limit the resources they do have and make sure they're the best of they can afford or else they won't be around for long. Even megacorps scale there security operations regarding the "value" of the material/personnel/information which is being guarded but that's about it to make it more cost effective but they're not going to stint on security on stuff other corps are going to target.

Actually I've been a Lieutenant in a NATO-affiliated country, where during my service I was responsible for logistics, supplies and arms for a Battlion-sized mixed-force intervention unit during extensive multi-national field exercises (not the real thing but the logistics and cost evaluations are).

Why? Gangers and wannabees are not going to get past the perimeter let alone on the grounds. Those paramilitary assets above aren't there just for show. If you read the material available you will note that several megacorps cross-train and exchange men between their military and security branches. Whether you play the game differently is another issue.

Well, then you must have missed the bit where I said high-end integrated tactics as opposed to the simple tactical solutions I presented previously - which any run-of-the-mill security officer should have prepared his men for.

Nah, this isn't my game. My game is street-level. This is just looking to SR canon for info on what to expect from the gameworld. Sorry, but at least I fail to see your points.

Corp Download states the level of security a megacorp would have (in the Running Against sections). Most are rated Equal if not Superior to a normal (I would define normal as chargen) runner team.

How expensive was it to have your street sam implant his cyber? 123 BPs? Roughly half a million nuyen give or take. And if the opposition is Superior, considerably more. Every sec guard has at least 1/2 million spent on him.
And how much were you paying your guards? 1K per month?

In my country, an basic infantryman cost roughly 10K a year and that's minimal training. A barely-pass for everything. And these guys are conscripts too, they work cheap!

On the other hand, how much are Lone Star cops paid? How many LS officers have cyber? They do!? When running into megacorps, I use the stats for the mega in question. However, I was thinking of security of those A/unrated corps that are a dime a dozen and should possibly take up a substantial amount of your business.

In all fairness that 500k worth of cyber probably costs the mega 20k because they manufacture it. The doctors are on salary too.

Thank you for reinforcing my point for me. If you actually think about what you've just posted, you'll realize that you've agreed that:
a) Corp security forces are Equal to runner teams (whether they're starting or not is besides the point) - which contradicts your previous notion that they're just there to keep out gangers and wannabes. It also means they have skills in the same range as the players characters, they're as experienced as the PCs and they're equipped as least as well. What this means is you're supposed to consider the hardware, cyberware, skills and cash a runner team has and then give the Equal enemy the same range.
b) A starting runner/Equal sec guard is certainly not the "rent-a-cop" you were proposing above wether you like it or not. These are highly-trained individuals, loyal to the corp and good at what they do. They're trained to give the shadowrunners a run for their money (so to speak).
c) Note that the rules say that default individuals are Equal to runners. They're also more of them than there are shadowrunners.

Whether you play this way or not is besides the point. I'm justing that the published canon universe backs me up and not you - mainly in response to that silly "it's your game" comment. If you want to underpower the opposition you are free to do so but don't come out and say that that's the way things are.

BitBasher is correct. Your street sam (almost by definition) picks up his cyber on the streets which means he pays street prices. Corps get their stuff at cost. Furthermore, you're being narrowminded, there are many ways of Equating opposition which don't strictly involve uping their cyber to street sam levels. Give them higher skills than the runners or more tactical experience to make up for the less cyber and they're just as Equal. Give the site rigger the same level of nuyen in drones and automated systems and they're just as Equal.

I have no idea what it costs you guys, in my country it costs about 4000 euros and the results are crap. What's your point?

I take it you've decided not to address the whole issue of carrier groups, submarines, orbital weapon platforms and cyberzombies because it doesn't fit with your perception of the game either?

Actually yes. You should get the book. Lone Star actually co-sponsors (it doesn't give it) the acquisition of work-related implants. Regarding salary I'd say Lone Star cops probably make at least enough a month for a Medium lifestyle which is way more than you're giving them credit for...

While stats and gear may be less than Equal there's no reason why some of these guys have to be any dumber or less experienced than the megacorp cops. They've also got the advantage of numbers most of the time.

Thats probably a bad idea since Lone Star is a top of the line AA multinational extaterrotirial megacorporation. They will be right at the top of the pile.