The problem with that approach(going up against good opponents, which by the way is good for getting a lot of karma) is that eventually they are going to be world class runners. And when you off a team that is the runner equivalent of Real Madrid, the chances of another team that is their match grows smaller. When enough teams get torn up, there wouldn't be enough credible competition left without straining the believability of the game.
After you dusted the Renraku Reds, Sioux Wildcats, Tir Ghost and the very best SK has to offer, maybe the other teams will take a hint and not accept jobs that target your people or stand in your way.
Full Version: What are the odds... gm factor vs reality (long)
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf @ Feb 12 2004, 08:05 AM) |
| Synner, to the whole "how you play it thing" again let me assure you, we play smart. The problem is with the normalacy of the system, and the numbers involved, making many situations statistically irrelevent and therefore unexciting. Like normal gangers being a non-threat regardless of what they do (even a called shot to the cyberskull head of the sam wont do more than anger him, using ganger level weapons and skills). Common sense aside, the canonical rules tend to land the runners with the upper hand more often than not, unless its something serious (Tir Ghosts) or unless its just the GM being obnoxious (gangers with Assualt Cannons). Thus Im trying to avoid situation/tactic/examples altogether, for us at least thats not really the issue. |
Sorry for the delay in responding but I've been having a busy life... I think you misunderstood my comment. I wasn't talking so much about the player's options and decisions (ie. whether you're playing "smart") but about how you and your GM play the game.
Let me give you a brief outline of the (aforementioned) adventure/run I've been running to give you some specific comparison as to the differences in playing styles.
Before getting into this let me establish a couple of facts:
a) the 4 players are all experienced (with one exception).
b) their (new) characters have only three runs under their belt; they are: a combat mage, a combat decker, a troll merc and a street sam/face.
c) I've been GMing SR for 12 years now.
d) We're all Europeans and we prefer intrigue heavy espionage aspect more than the gunfights.
e) I'm playtesting aspects of the (decidedly different) Euro-setting that people will see in SoE.
f) I play for the atmosphere more than the action.
The Setup:
After performing a run that tested their performance in an environment where they were way out of their depth (retrieve a pilfered file and its respective codekey from a corporate Johnson during the Grand Tour at the Cannes film festival and then hand it over in Paris), the team is hired on retainer for one of the bigtime Euro players to perform multiple operations for their Intel Division. They get to spend their downtime in a cosy luxury hotel in New Monaco.
A week or so later they are called in by their "handler" and given their next mission profile. Pay is way above their usual standard and so is the risk factor. The run involves aspects of both traditional shadowrunning and more mercenary contracts (all the team have merc backgrounds to some extent).
The Mission:
Enter a war-torn Eastern European country (more info on this in DotSW and upcoming SoE) and monkeywrench S-K's plans to organize an underworld (crime) summit which might tip the balance of the ongoing war (to S-K's benefit of course). The team has a week before the date Intel says the summit will take place. The team is given the name of the city where the summit will be held, the name of the middleman syndicate which is hosting it (as well as a profile of its leadership), and dossiers on the 5 factions which would be involved in the summit (although no specifics on who the attending representatives will be). The mission is simple, do anything and everything necessary to stop the summit taking place or at least stop it from reaching an agreement. 50% of the fee is paid up front the remainder upon completion.
First Step:
Getting there. The team is currently based in New Monaco (France), but like many euro-runners has an international contact network; this however does not reach into Eastern Europe... Due to the unstable situation in the destination country international flights are suspended to all but one sprawl and those suffer huge surveillance. Only one of the land borders is really open and the others are all heavily militarized. However finding a way through after crossing the open border means going through the frontlines of the conflict to get to the target city. Getting in and out is going to be a major part of the situation.
The team ends up doing a lot of legwork, using loads of contacts and spending tons of cash just to find a way in which will allow them to take all their gear.
Friends of friends (and the dangers associated with them) give the team some names that might give them a ride on a blackmarket caravan out of Prague (Czech Rep) for a fee - incidently run by one of the factions at the summit! After some misadventures (sideplots) in Prague, they meet up with the outfit that runs the caravans and negotiate their ride in (which is tricky since they have to be extra careful not to give anything away) since they're obviously not the usual type of passenger these guys carry. The ride across the border is almost uneventful.
Challenges: The situation itself. Unfamiliar surroundings. Working contacts to the max. Negotiating with Gypsy underworld fixers. Making friends with a people you might have to betray down the line.
Second Step:
Once across the border and in rebel-controlled territory the runners have to find a way to get to the frontlines and through to the city where the summit will be held. They have no transport, no personal contacts and the frontlines are 250kms away through a burned out and continuously-bombed warzone. They have to find a rebel guide who won't ask too many questions and a way of getting to the frontlines that won't be bombed to kingdom come by the government's high-altitude bombers (which hit anything unconcealed on the roads). Once those are overcome, they need to find a way across the frontlines on both sides of the conflict and the hazards of a heavily mined no-man's land. The team loses their vehicle to bombing (didn't take any special precautions) getting away mostly unscathed until they tried to evade a small rebel patrol(*) in a pickup in what could only be seen as suspicious behaviour. A seven man patrol in an armored pickup with a LMG mounted on the back and the glare of high-powered mounted searchlights aimed at the group made them think twice (the patrol was also protected by a Field spirit probably bound by a rebel shaman currently not present). The team did the maths and decided they could win but they'd probably be too beaten up to continue the mission and surrendered.
Fortunately after a tense encounter which cost them a significant part of their custom and cool gear, the team meet a foreign mercenary company holding the front trenches for the rebels which helps them through for a fee (otherwise there would be no reason for the rebels not to be even more suspicious of anyone crossing to the enemy side).
After that they have to deal with 5 kms of mined no-man's land and the automated defenses on the other side (HMGs in improvised concrete bunkers located on high ground every 1.5 kms, forming a rough line, each surrounded by basic mines and with minimal sensors out to about 2 kms – backed by a mechanized unit stationed a couple of clicks away which reinforces the first line of defense only when a turret engages enemies).
Challenges: Again the situation itself and unfamiliar surroundings. Negotiating with people in a place where e-currency and foreign currency have very little immediate value hampers non-Faces. Crossing a warzone subject to random enemy bombing. Negotiating the frontlines on both sides. Possibly getting into shootouts with the trigger-happy rebels or the well-trained and equipped government troops. The "passive" dangers of crossing no-man's land. Getting clear of the border. Note - Seven guys with hunting rifles and shotguns (relevant skills in the 3-4 range, veteran 'officer' in the 5-6 range), in an armored (welded plates) pickup truck with a vehicle mounted LMG and the glare of floodlights will make a dent in almost any team.
Third Step:
Once behind "enemy lines", the team has to travel another 100 clicks (remember they still have no vehicle) to the city all the while trying to avoid military patrols, random checkpoints, overzealous police forces, an anti-government unease among the populace, curfews, and the multiple hazards of martial law in an Iron Curtain-style state. When (if) they eventually get to the city, they have to discover who their specific targets really are, exactly where and when the summit is, and decided how to sabotage it based on the field Intel they gather! All this without contacts, money (using foreign cash would tag them to the authorities and their local money went in the encounter with the mercenaries) and knowledge of the sprawl. The fact that they've meanwhile learned from their guide that there are more factions at work, many of which are at cross-purposes, doesn't help. They've also found out that according to rumor the host syndicate's leader (their default target) is apparently a vampire of some sort, but have no way of confirming if this is true or not.
Challenges: Roadblocks on major roads and highways. Roving military patrols that won't liked to see armed runners. Transportation. Unfamiliar surroundings. No local knowledge. Everyone is paranoid of everyone else's alleigance, etc. Pulling a gun will get you in trouble which ever way the fight turns out. Standard patrols are 9 men units commanded by a sergent; all have distinctive military armour and assault rifles with normal rounds (relevant skills in the 4-5 range). A couple have grenade launchers and rocket proppelled grenades.
Note – this is as far as they've got so I won't post further spoilers, I trust this example will suffice as a comparison with the 'complications' you usually encounter in your runs and the threat level. Also note that this is only 2 sessions into the current adventure and not one shot has been fired - although the team's lives have been at deadly risk more times than I care to remember and they haven't even begun trying to target the reps at the summit. I also haven't addressed the stifling atmosphere and paranoid tension that's gone into role-playing all the different encounters, as well as all the (I hope) detailed descriptions (and irrelevant details) I tend to heap on my players. My experience is that players are used to having only the "important" bits or locations of a story detailed. If you detail everything they never know what is most important and are constantly on edge and thats what I wanted here. It's a trick I use when I want to crank up the ambient tension which was the case in this scenario.
This is what I meant by "it's all in how you play."
Actually the only reason a single shot wasn't fired is probably the personalities of your players or the way the players want to play their characters.
If anything, my players would have invisibilty on their vehicle(probably an overarmoured APC. if I know my rigger) with a nature spirit running concealment. Set up an ambush if meeting the patrol was unavoidable, and wipe them out to the last man.
And having details are not going to work. My guys are detail freaks, and details that don't fit will make you look like you are rail-roading, even if you are not.
I'm not saying that your style is not good. Probably it is very good, but what I'm saying is that your style might not be suitable in certain circumstances - trigger happy PCs, over-powered uber-munched PCs, PCs with things that you never thought would trip you up, etc.
White Dwarf's group's problem seem to be the lack of trust of the GM not to screw them over deliberately. What I would say is that the GM could make his rolls public(not behind a screen) and let those rolls fall where they may. Make it clear that anyone making use of the metagame knowledge is going to have his karma docked if necessary (probably won't happen if they are good RPers). I know that some people advocating rolling behind the screen to increase the suspense but if the issue is a lack of trust, then letting the die fall as it is should be a good solution.
I usually hold a debrief of the session so that everyone knows that what happened was fair and above board. No fudging, no last minute increase in the abilities of the opposition. In fact, after every campaign, I let my players see my notes. So they know OOC what exactly they faced, or why they screwed up or how someone knew what they were, etc.
If anything, my players would have invisibilty on their vehicle(probably an overarmoured APC. if I know my rigger) with a nature spirit running concealment. Set up an ambush if meeting the patrol was unavoidable, and wipe them out to the last man.
And having details are not going to work. My guys are detail freaks, and details that don't fit will make you look like you are rail-roading, even if you are not.
I'm not saying that your style is not good. Probably it is very good, but what I'm saying is that your style might not be suitable in certain circumstances - trigger happy PCs, over-powered uber-munched PCs, PCs with things that you never thought would trip you up, etc.
White Dwarf's group's problem seem to be the lack of trust of the GM not to screw them over deliberately. What I would say is that the GM could make his rolls public(not behind a screen) and let those rolls fall where they may. Make it clear that anyone making use of the metagame knowledge is going to have his karma docked if necessary (probably won't happen if they are good RPers). I know that some people advocating rolling behind the screen to increase the suspense but if the issue is a lack of trust, then letting the die fall as it is should be a good solution.
I usually hold a debrief of the session so that everyone knows that what happened was fair and above board. No fudging, no last minute increase in the abilities of the opposition. In fact, after every campaign, I let my players see my notes. So they know OOC what exactly they faced, or why they screwed up or how someone knew what they were, etc.
| QUOTE |
| Actually the only reason a single shot wasn't fired is probably the personalities of your players or the way the players want to play their characters. |
Yes and no. I've got a couple of trigger happy runners (the combat decker and the troll merc). The issue is that they realized getting in trouble at any point so far would have made completing the mission impossible. They don't want to frag up their nice cosy long term agreement with the boss.
| QUOTE |
| If anything, my players would have invisibilty on their vehicle(probably an overarmoured APC. if I know my rigger) with a nature spirit running concealment. Set up an ambush if meeting the patrol was unavoidable, and wipe them out to the last man. |
A few different issues there:
a) Had they had such a vehicle they wouldn't have been able to get it into the country (especially not crossing 7 borders) and getting your hands on someone's APC in a warzone is just asking for trouble. Regardless they're still a vehicle moving towards the frontline and so a target.
b) The team had a mage and he was using invisibility on the vehicle (at Force 6 with 2 successes) - check the rules, it isn't easy. The problem is the bombers are looking for magically concealed vehicles (the rebel's MO) and have military grade sensors, plus the bombs don't have to hit right on if they're driving an old truck.
c) The vehicle of choice was an old truck to at least give the impression it might be a civilian transport in case Invisibility failed.
d) Either way, they were on foot in unfamiliar terrain by the time the pickup drove up (I could have made it two trucks with a patrol in each and not broken "realism").
e) Even if they had avoided all the problems they still couldn't have crossed no-man's land in a combat vehicle without getting in far worse trouble.
| QUOTE |
| And having details are not going to work. My guys are detail freaks, and details that don't fit will make you look like you are rail-roading, even if you are not. |
I didn't say the details didn't fit or that they're a necessary element. I just lump a lot of atmosphere and description around even minor encounters like the first meet with the local guide and that leaves them guessing what information is really important, what isn't and what are just red herrings. Add to this the lack of local knowledge....
| QUOTE |
| I'm not saying that your style is not good. Probably it is very good, but what I'm saying is that your style might not be suitable in certain circumstances - trigger happy PCs, over-powered uber-munched PCs, PCs with things that you never thought would trip you up, etc. |
You're right about that. If the runner's are trigger happy, they have very short life expectancies in my game. Fortunately the current batch including the newbie have caught on. I could easily upgrade the challenges in this run to uber-powered PCs by having credible high-end challenges (Government spec ops or more troops on the border, greater difficulties getting gear into the country, better sentry guns, etc). Most of my players characters are unfortunately more munched than I like but a HMG turret 1 click away over no-man's land will ruin even a high-powered player's day. Remember there are no DocWagon clinics or street shamans lying around an unfamiliar warzone to fix you up and you still have the main objective of the run to complete.
| QUOTE |
| White Dwarf's group's problem seem to be the lack of trust of the GM not to screw them over deliberately. What I would say is that the GM could make his rolls public(not behind a screen) and let those rolls fall where they may. Make it clear that anyone making use of the metagame knowledge is going to have his karma docked if necessary (probably won't happen if they are good RPers). I know that some people advocating rolling behind the screen to increase the suspense but if the issue is a lack of trust, then letting the die fall as it is should be a good solution. |
Possibly (personally I make my rolls public and let everyone live with the consequences good or bad), however I got the distinct impression that WD's problem was more to do with the fact that the level of (usual) opposition and the strict obedience to the ruleset is seen as making everything predictable including player decisions. With this example I hoped to show how even a mid-level run (this is a mid-level run for me) could be challenging and difficult without breaking the rules or even bending them but simply introducing different types of challenges and different environments.
Many good respones here at the end regarding plot and level of play. Im not going to respond to all of them, but its given me a few angles to think about. Mostly, its good to see some ideas that dont involve "weakening" characters because all that does is either piss people off their characters were nerfed, or it just lowers the numbers so that you have pistol> runner instead of shotgun > runner without really solving the problem (same situation, lower set of stats). So, many thanks, and I hope a few more crop up.
Regarding the whole gm/trust/screw issue, its not that we dont trust him not to be screwed. Its that players will statisitically win 95% of the situations unless the gm does something obviously intended to make things difficult that is obviously out of place (example, youre at a meet to pickup some firearms, the arms dealer gets attacked by a gang looking to score some weaps, you jump in to defend your contact, and lo and behold 20 Red Samuri jump down on your parade to kill you... wtf - scenario is all cool till the obviously out of place red sam are thrown in for no reason other than to be dangerous to pcs, I mean 20? no). Thus, the GM is often in a hard spot because encounters come off to easy, which makes things repeatative for players. That was all really, we need a new angle or area to bring some life back.
Also, the whole roleplay vs roll thing, its sorta a catch 22. Say you have 3 characters, one with aptitude negotiations and negotiations 6, the other with negotiations 4, and the last with negotiations 1, and theyre all at a meet talking with the Johnson. The guy with negotations 4 is the best speaker of the group so he roleplays it out, but when asked to roll obviously isnt the best choice. So either you have to let the dice speak over the roleplay (advantage of making buildpoints/karma spent here count) or you can ignore the dice, to some extent, and let the roleplay apply (advantage of perhaps working better, but makes points spent on this social skill useless). So we go for a more middle ground approach making use of both; I mean ideally players would just buy social skills that match their RL skills and it wouldnt matter which you use, but as we all know that rarely, if ever, occurs.
The example of style that was posted involving the European theater, useful but as someone mentioned its not something totally transferable group to group. Some very good kernals I can use for ideas here, so its very appriciated. But of course not everything would work for all, I know for one our group would have balked at the "no money since it would peg you as foriengers" because, unless SoE adds this in, Nuyen is sorta the world wide money and if they couldnt use it electronically as a credit transfer they would freak. Just one example of a few things that stood out, but there were as many or more good points too. Please keep it coming.
Regarding the whole gm/trust/screw issue, its not that we dont trust him not to be screwed. Its that players will statisitically win 95% of the situations unless the gm does something obviously intended to make things difficult that is obviously out of place (example, youre at a meet to pickup some firearms, the arms dealer gets attacked by a gang looking to score some weaps, you jump in to defend your contact, and lo and behold 20 Red Samuri jump down on your parade to kill you... wtf - scenario is all cool till the obviously out of place red sam are thrown in for no reason other than to be dangerous to pcs, I mean 20? no). Thus, the GM is often in a hard spot because encounters come off to easy, which makes things repeatative for players. That was all really, we need a new angle or area to bring some life back.
Also, the whole roleplay vs roll thing, its sorta a catch 22. Say you have 3 characters, one with aptitude negotiations and negotiations 6, the other with negotiations 4, and the last with negotiations 1, and theyre all at a meet talking with the Johnson. The guy with negotations 4 is the best speaker of the group so he roleplays it out, but when asked to roll obviously isnt the best choice. So either you have to let the dice speak over the roleplay (advantage of making buildpoints/karma spent here count) or you can ignore the dice, to some extent, and let the roleplay apply (advantage of perhaps working better, but makes points spent on this social skill useless). So we go for a more middle ground approach making use of both; I mean ideally players would just buy social skills that match their RL skills and it wouldnt matter which you use, but as we all know that rarely, if ever, occurs.
The example of style that was posted involving the European theater, useful but as someone mentioned its not something totally transferable group to group. Some very good kernals I can use for ideas here, so its very appriciated. But of course not everything would work for all, I know for one our group would have balked at the "no money since it would peg you as foriengers" because, unless SoE adds this in, Nuyen is sorta the world wide money and if they couldnt use it electronically as a credit transfer they would freak. Just one example of a few things that stood out, but there were as many or more good points too. Please keep it coming.
Nuyen is a worldwide trade currency, but it is neither exclusive nor unique (just the most common - the 2060's version of the dollar). This is neither here nor there regarding the situation described above. It's not that the Nuyen, or whatever other currency, doesn't exist but rather that it doesn't "work", the environment renders it useless. Nobody in the middle of a warzone or under regime that watches and regulates foreign presence is going to have the tech (credchecker), connection (no Matrix hookup for the credchecker to work, in fact no proper Matrix connection at all) and/or the interest in accepting currency which will certainly draw the authorities attention... I can't get into the reasons why here and now, at least until SoE hits the shelves.
But make no mistake, the same sort of situation would occur if you're visiting the Yucatan or to some extent Russia, TT and TNO as well, for different reasons of course.
The other point I was trying to get at is that the runners haven't even started "the run" yet. They're still just dealing with the insertion and they've encountered all types of tough and organized opposition. The reason I disagree with torturi's comments above about the team's playing or characters being behind the "no shots fired" situation is because I believe the true reason is that they know that if they get shot up and wounded at any point, its going to make fulfilling their contract and getting out even more problematic (try explaining to the military police and checkpoint police why you're all shot up and not being mistaken with rebel sympathizers). The team could probably take out a rebel patrol or even a military unit but they chose not to risk possible casualties because they're completely dependent on their combat mage for healing in this foreign land (I won't even get into the trouble they'll be in if a wound damages some major piece of cyber like wired reflexes) with no contacts, chipped language skills and no resources except those they brought with them and that they can scrounge out.
Any situation can be toughened without going over the top since SR is lethal at almost any level of play. For instance, let's take your meet example above:
Fixer is present accompanied by 1 or 2 bodyguards/toughs (these are there to protect the fixer and get him out alive not to duke it out). Team members present probably 4-5 (maybe with another in overwatch). Location of the meet: an empty warehouse on the Everett waterfront.
Unbenownst to those present the First Nation gang has heard of the meet and is looking to score some weapons. They send out a posse of 13 gangers to handle the job. Gangers are equipped with one assault rifle, one SMG, 3-4 hunting rifles/shotguns, a couple of Roomsweepers and the rest pack pistols of various sorts. The gangers are all rated 3-4 with the relevant firearms. The First Nations shaman also sends along a Force 5-6 City Spirit (Great Form if need be IIRC the First Nations shaman is a level 3 Initiate) to protect and backup the gangers.
Knowing there's probably going to be surveillance or guards around the meet site the gangers approach simply driving a couple of non-descript stolen cars/pickups/vans just near enough, then one swerves and rams its way into the building while the other disgorges the remaining gangers outside (at best the runners get a couple of actions to do something if they've tagged the movement, otherwise roll for surprise).
Assuming the runners aren't meeting a friendly fixer with heavy weapons in hand, this seems like real trouble for any normal team. The first car tries to run down any slow-moving character while the gangers inside fire their weapons from the benefit of at least partial cover, in a moving car, probably using autofire for supressive fire and their shotgun chokes at max for effect rather than damage while shooting out of the windows and remaining hunkered down (they're mostly a distraction and they know it) - note the gangers come in firing using the equivalent of a held action, which means they'll always win a first action with regards to the players. The City Spirit is there to help in case magic support is needed (he'll hit any mage attacker with Confusion or some such Power) from the benefit of surprise, or if there's no obvious attacker he hits the whole team with his Powers.
The team is probably going to start shooting the shit out of the car/pickup/van but the gangers inside have the benefit of partial cover or more, the vehicle's armor and bod (don't forget what those do to the Power of non-AV attacks), as well as their own Kevlar2 jackets and/or vests. Plus there's six of them, so the team had better not stand around where there's no cover, they have to move and that's where suppressive fire kicks in.
A few gangers will inevitably go down fast as the well-coordinated team gets their act together. However with SR3 initiative the team only gets an action each before the remaining gangers hit them, from the entry gates torn apart by the first van, with the rifles and pistols (these guys also use as much cover as possible and have the benefit that it's probably night and dark outside, meaning there's also visibility modifiers for those trying to target them, while their targets are inside the well-lit warehouse AND they'll probably be shooting the characters in the back since these'll be facing the first van).
Even if the runners manage to take out the first car's entirely within the first action they're likely still going to be standing out in the open in the warehouse and easy pickings for the 2 gangers with hunting rifles with scopes while the other 5 gangers shoot up anything that's still moving. Figure in that the gangers are all going to have Karma pools of 1 (by the book) for at least one reroll and I think most teams are going to be in trouble and ranges for shots are going to be medium or short depending on the weapon. It's amazing how fast Combat Pool gets used up when this many people are shooting at you.
Unless your team goes to all meets in heavy armor and assault rifles with grenade launchers, they're in trouble...
But make no mistake, the same sort of situation would occur if you're visiting the Yucatan or to some extent Russia, TT and TNO as well, for different reasons of course.
The other point I was trying to get at is that the runners haven't even started "the run" yet. They're still just dealing with the insertion and they've encountered all types of tough and organized opposition. The reason I disagree with torturi's comments above about the team's playing or characters being behind the "no shots fired" situation is because I believe the true reason is that they know that if they get shot up and wounded at any point, its going to make fulfilling their contract and getting out even more problematic (try explaining to the military police and checkpoint police why you're all shot up and not being mistaken with rebel sympathizers). The team could probably take out a rebel patrol or even a military unit but they chose not to risk possible casualties because they're completely dependent on their combat mage for healing in this foreign land (I won't even get into the trouble they'll be in if a wound damages some major piece of cyber like wired reflexes) with no contacts, chipped language skills and no resources except those they brought with them and that they can scrounge out.
Any situation can be toughened without going over the top since SR is lethal at almost any level of play. For instance, let's take your meet example above:
Fixer is present accompanied by 1 or 2 bodyguards/toughs (these are there to protect the fixer and get him out alive not to duke it out). Team members present probably 4-5 (maybe with another in overwatch). Location of the meet: an empty warehouse on the Everett waterfront.
Unbenownst to those present the First Nation gang has heard of the meet and is looking to score some weapons. They send out a posse of 13 gangers to handle the job. Gangers are equipped with one assault rifle, one SMG, 3-4 hunting rifles/shotguns, a couple of Roomsweepers and the rest pack pistols of various sorts. The gangers are all rated 3-4 with the relevant firearms. The First Nations shaman also sends along a Force 5-6 City Spirit (Great Form if need be IIRC the First Nations shaman is a level 3 Initiate) to protect and backup the gangers.
Knowing there's probably going to be surveillance or guards around the meet site the gangers approach simply driving a couple of non-descript stolen cars/pickups/vans just near enough, then one swerves and rams its way into the building while the other disgorges the remaining gangers outside (at best the runners get a couple of actions to do something if they've tagged the movement, otherwise roll for surprise).
Assuming the runners aren't meeting a friendly fixer with heavy weapons in hand, this seems like real trouble for any normal team. The first car tries to run down any slow-moving character while the gangers inside fire their weapons from the benefit of at least partial cover, in a moving car, probably using autofire for supressive fire and their shotgun chokes at max for effect rather than damage while shooting out of the windows and remaining hunkered down (they're mostly a distraction and they know it) - note the gangers come in firing using the equivalent of a held action, which means they'll always win a first action with regards to the players. The City Spirit is there to help in case magic support is needed (he'll hit any mage attacker with Confusion or some such Power) from the benefit of surprise, or if there's no obvious attacker he hits the whole team with his Powers.
The team is probably going to start shooting the shit out of the car/pickup/van but the gangers inside have the benefit of partial cover or more, the vehicle's armor and bod (don't forget what those do to the Power of non-AV attacks), as well as their own Kevlar2 jackets and/or vests. Plus there's six of them, so the team had better not stand around where there's no cover, they have to move and that's where suppressive fire kicks in.
A few gangers will inevitably go down fast as the well-coordinated team gets their act together. However with SR3 initiative the team only gets an action each before the remaining gangers hit them, from the entry gates torn apart by the first van, with the rifles and pistols (these guys also use as much cover as possible and have the benefit that it's probably night and dark outside, meaning there's also visibility modifiers for those trying to target them, while their targets are inside the well-lit warehouse AND they'll probably be shooting the characters in the back since these'll be facing the first van).
Even if the runners manage to take out the first car's entirely within the first action they're likely still going to be standing out in the open in the warehouse and easy pickings for the 2 gangers with hunting rifles with scopes while the other 5 gangers shoot up anything that's still moving. Figure in that the gangers are all going to have Karma pools of 1 (by the book) for at least one reroll and I think most teams are going to be in trouble and ranges for shots are going to be medium or short depending on the weapon. It's amazing how fast Combat Pool gets used up when this many people are shooting at you.
Unless your team goes to all meets in heavy armor and assault rifles with grenade launchers, they're in trouble...
1 - It sounds to me that you are having trouble coming up with Realistic unusual plans that enemies would come up with. this is a creativity issue rather than a game mechanics issue.
here are some ideas i came up with while reading earlier posts:
Guy with cyberskull vs. gangers:
gangers drop BIG rock(refriderator, TV, couch) on him from rooftop,
run him over with truck,
drop power line on him (or heck power pole).
knock him into sewer and drown him.
the gangers should KNOW these things are around and if not run. if the neighbourhood has let security to these thugs, and in many places they will have, then the neighbourhood might join in the fight too, after all even if they are evil, there as close to cops as the street scum is gonna get... if you piss them off, than they will find a way to get back at you later on there own turf.
Also, play the oposition like you play your charechters, in fact, build your opposition the same way that you build your charechters. if the starting players are to strong, than everyone should be that strong. after all, how did THEY get there. it's not like the bad guys don't think of the same combinations that the runners do. if it is reasonable that the B&E has all the cyber maxed to do that part of the job well, than doesn't it also make sense that the target will try and keep on top of the tech curve too?
2 - Drama is as important as realism, yes, a well maintained car that has had every thing done right probably won't break. but it obviously DOES happen, otherwise, the army wouldn't need skilled mechanics. things break, bad stuf happens randomly. is it unlikely? sure. is it dramatic? yes. should a GM use this? yes, not all the time but it should happen.
3 - fear of GM being a "bad guy" it sounds to me like no one wants to be a Mean GM. this is a problem. if you want fun and challenging runs, than you need a fast thinking GM who is willing to kill the PCs off and think. The Gms job is to be the harsh reality of 2063, that requires some meaness.
4 - To Much information. It seams that the players in your games have more info than they should. how do they know where the Sec guards are, why are there not snipers they didn't know about? think of new and interesting ideas to challenge them, *think* like a Sec. gaurd, if the Security is consistantly losing than they will come up with new ways to fight - heck they will have conferences on how to beat THOSE runners if they are the best. or they might even hire the runners to defend the instalations from others like themselves...
5 - bring in some new blood. I know it can be hard, but it might be the thing you need, not nessesarily a new player, but an experienced GM who you have not played with/against before. even if they don't know the system well, they will think in ways you are not familiar with. this is great for changing the percieved threat level, cause you never know what the new GM might come up with that no one has seen before.
6 - Canon is good, surprising is better. try and bring in new material from other sources that are not canon. i am not saying break the balance, just use Ideas from other places. don't be afriad to change the world, it can make things really different and fun. play "what if" games, what if dunkie lost the election? what if Aztech took over CAS... a different world will make you rethink the assumptions.
that is all I have, this is not meant as an attack, just an observation, I may be wrong, but these have all worked for me inthe past when dealing with Maxed out Chars.
-Mike R.
here are some ideas i came up with while reading earlier posts:
Guy with cyberskull vs. gangers:
gangers drop BIG rock(refriderator, TV, couch) on him from rooftop,
run him over with truck,
drop power line on him (or heck power pole).
knock him into sewer and drown him.
the gangers should KNOW these things are around and if not run. if the neighbourhood has let security to these thugs, and in many places they will have, then the neighbourhood might join in the fight too, after all even if they are evil, there as close to cops as the street scum is gonna get... if you piss them off, than they will find a way to get back at you later on there own turf.
Also, play the oposition like you play your charechters, in fact, build your opposition the same way that you build your charechters. if the starting players are to strong, than everyone should be that strong. after all, how did THEY get there. it's not like the bad guys don't think of the same combinations that the runners do. if it is reasonable that the B&E has all the cyber maxed to do that part of the job well, than doesn't it also make sense that the target will try and keep on top of the tech curve too?
2 - Drama is as important as realism, yes, a well maintained car that has had every thing done right probably won't break. but it obviously DOES happen, otherwise, the army wouldn't need skilled mechanics. things break, bad stuf happens randomly. is it unlikely? sure. is it dramatic? yes. should a GM use this? yes, not all the time but it should happen.
3 - fear of GM being a "bad guy" it sounds to me like no one wants to be a Mean GM. this is a problem. if you want fun and challenging runs, than you need a fast thinking GM who is willing to kill the PCs off and think. The Gms job is to be the harsh reality of 2063, that requires some meaness.
4 - To Much information. It seams that the players in your games have more info than they should. how do they know where the Sec guards are, why are there not snipers they didn't know about? think of new and interesting ideas to challenge them, *think* like a Sec. gaurd, if the Security is consistantly losing than they will come up with new ways to fight - heck they will have conferences on how to beat THOSE runners if they are the best. or they might even hire the runners to defend the instalations from others like themselves...
5 - bring in some new blood. I know it can be hard, but it might be the thing you need, not nessesarily a new player, but an experienced GM who you have not played with/against before. even if they don't know the system well, they will think in ways you are not familiar with. this is great for changing the percieved threat level, cause you never know what the new GM might come up with that no one has seen before.
6 - Canon is good, surprising is better. try and bring in new material from other sources that are not canon. i am not saying break the balance, just use Ideas from other places. don't be afriad to change the world, it can make things really different and fun. play "what if" games, what if dunkie lost the election? what if Aztech took over CAS... a different world will make you rethink the assumptions.
that is all I have, this is not meant as an attack, just an observation, I may be wrong, but these have all worked for me inthe past when dealing with Maxed out Chars.
-Mike R.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
|
Sorry for so many quotes, but I wanted to make a point. It really seems to me like you have a problem with trust between the players and the GM. If the players feel like everything that the GM does to make the game challenging or unexpected is the GM being "obnoxious", "unrealistic", or "trying to screw them", I'm not surprised that the game tends to become somewhat dull and repetitive.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
|
I have to admit I'm surprised by this problem... you seem to be saying that everyone in your group is good at everything they need to do (everyone has high Body and armor, everyone has good combat skills, everyone is the best of the best at their appropriate specialization, etc.). I know it's possible to make characters of vastly different power levels using the same character creation system, but I've never managed to make a character who had no weaknesses. How do you manage that? Is it that no one's willing to overlook anything or do anything suboptimal for fear of "nerfing" their characters? Or is it just that the GM can't do anything to play off of characters' weak points without being accused of the aforementioned sins?
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Unless your team goes to all meets in heavy armor and assault rifles with grenade launchers, they're in trouble... |
Emmm, Synner? The scenario is good. But the premise needs a little work.
If the runners were very careful about not giving away info that they were going to buy stuff or give away any clue about their activites and the fixer was equally careful, it would mean somehow, somewhere, someone got very lucky. Once maybe, twice? That's stretching credibility.
And it is usually the fixer(GM) that specifies the meeting place, so since the runners were meeting the fixer on his turf and such an unfortunate incident were to occur, tell me you won't be the least bit suspicious that your GM isn't trying to screw you?
Also the 3 vehicles (2 if you really cram) coming down to your meet? Now? Rigger, light up your combat drones! If your surveillance of the area was good, then you would have noticed the gangers coming and that they are loaded for bear too. No, rigger? OK, have your mage assign some watchers around the general neighbourhood. Watchers get squished? Maybe it is time to go Alert?
Agreed, but the premise wasn't mine, I was simply explanining how IMHO White Dwarf's example (above) could be made a lot more deadly without introducing Red Samurai (this has never happened in my game). As for your points- the City Spirit could easily have been used to Conceal the cars/vans just long enough to avoid surveillance, and as long as the warehouse in anywhere near a street or a built up urban area there's no reason to suspect passing vans until they swerve towards the warehouse (and by then they're little more than a Turn away from making the entrance).
A rigger would definitely put a damper on this party, although if drones were spotted the two cars would probably take cover inside the warehouse - if the drones weren't deployed the gangers would be in for a nasty surprise a couple of Turns down the line but by then the damage is done. Personally I've never seen a group deploy combat drones for overwatch when meeting a known arms dealer or fixer contact.
As for Watchers, it all depends on how you play them, in my game they're pretty useless unless its for magical overwatch, since they're astral beings physical overwatch is unreliable at best and they have to be told what to be on the look out for.
The car option is just one of many, the gangers could just as easily have used a handy nearby sewer system to get up close, take out any guards and then burst into the building...
A rigger would definitely put a damper on this party, although if drones were spotted the two cars would probably take cover inside the warehouse - if the drones weren't deployed the gangers would be in for a nasty surprise a couple of Turns down the line but by then the damage is done. Personally I've never seen a group deploy combat drones for overwatch when meeting a known arms dealer or fixer contact.
As for Watchers, it all depends on how you play them, in my game they're pretty useless unless its for magical overwatch, since they're astral beings physical overwatch is unreliable at best and they have to be told what to be on the look out for.
The car option is just one of many, the gangers could just as easily have used a handy nearby sewer system to get up close, take out any guards and then burst into the building...
Ok, let me respond here, few good things.
Synner, point taken about the money issue, like I said you have more info than I so maybe it wouldve worked, but when a Sat dish and a Sat-Matrix hookup are like 2k nuyen or something, youd think its something any "aspiring nation" or merc group using sat-com communication would have on tap. But again, once the book is out and I can read it, we can pick that up /grin. Your point about adding different layres of challenge is across and taken, its something I will think on.
Fahr, Im going to avoid explaining a response to everything here; but the rules governing falling damage, vehicle collision with pedestrians, etc can all be rather easily circumvented by an average runner (well at least our average runners). Things like a perception test to notice a car speeding towards you really put a damper on the "surprise car encounter" the Gm is planning or the whole "sewer fall" that you hope will hurt someone. And yes, the opposition will try to stay on the tech curve, but a company cant afford to sink 50k into cyber for each of its employees, runners can. Runners by default have an edge, which is what allows you to play one and win. Point is when you know what youre doing the edge remains, circumstances aside, to the point of predictability. When you trust the GM to come up with fair adventures, the players succed, its the nature of the game. GM success isnt measured in dead characters; but if they only sufficent challenge for them isnt realistic or survivable theres a gameplay issue... thats what Im trying to resolve.
Bolverk, its not about trust. We love our GMs and players, the issue isnt that they are screwing you with something out of the ordinary. Its that with proper planning, anything out of the ordinary becomes at the worst a minor setback, thus creating a situation where the outcome (success) is predictable. It only becomes unpredictable when over-the-top elements are introduced for really no reason other than to make it unpredictable. Hence the catch 22, static runs or unrealistic runs... we can make it challenging it just isnt as realistic, which goes against part of the fun for us playing. Thats the problem. Also, Id rather not post statistics on "invincible" characters without weaknesses, because it would take the focus off the discussion and potentially create discussion on the stats and how to min/max whatever. But even simple things like making all the runners willpower 5+, getting everyone into formfitting, using smartlinks where possible, making sure you observe a target before hitting it, all go a long way to success. And if you think high will parties is out of line, theres other points of view. Is it not realistic that the people successful in such a difficult and dangerous profession are those with the will to not give up, to perserver, and to overcome? I cant think of the last time I saw a fat lazy SEAL guy who gave up when things got rough... because I havent. Being a runner would weed out that crowd fast, not everyone can make it in this game (yay pun), and effective stats can reflect the fact that your character is someone who never says die. Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. =)
Tortui hit the nail on the head with the whole issue with the encounter; much like a game of chess, SR can get really into move, countermove when you get into discussions like this. Im sure you two could go back and forth for like 100 posts with the perfect counter to the situation, assuming you had the resources on hand when it happened. I know I could. But, it really all doesnt matter when the solution is nothing so elegant. If gangers jumped us, with said gear and skills (which is about average for gangers, and thus well within the reality scale), and were sporting no obvious reasons for the team to believe otherwise we would go with Plan A, and theres nothing the GM can do about Plan A. Plan A is run outside, draw pistols, shoot the snot out of everything, and let the puny gangers try to stop us. All that really cool stuff about survellinace and riggers and all aside, when push comes to shove, when the pcs have no fear, and willing jump into worst-case scenario for most teams...
Issue being that (our) average PC has enough stats to, in whatever way his character does, simply stand there and wipe out the gang. Straight up, skill 4 with 4 combat pool yields 4 successes against a base tn of 4. A body 8 pc with armor 7 will score 6 successes without doing anything other than standing there and taking it. Considering that most of those weapons do M damage, and standing and allowing yourself to be shot results in only a L wound, theres a pretty small margin to overcome to win. If you assume the PCs have things like smartlink and body 8 armor 7 on their sam-types, and do things like move and use cover, and that the gangers dont have access to heavy recoil mods and other higher end gear; the gangers dont have a chance. Spirit would be a threat, but most of the PCs also have willpower 5+, and theres a mage among them as well, which would probably down that as well. Id bet cash the players would win, based on stats alone. Which, of course, is the whole problem. GM could even the fight by adding something out of place, breaking the reality clause so to speak.
NOTE: the above is also part of the reason why I am trying to avoid hard number examples, because it puts the focus on the stats not the discussion. However, Im realizing a bit of give is needed to illustrate some points, but please try to avoid them if you can.
Hope this continues, thread is on track and Im learning everytime I check back. Thanks.
Synner, point taken about the money issue, like I said you have more info than I so maybe it wouldve worked, but when a Sat dish and a Sat-Matrix hookup are like 2k nuyen or something, youd think its something any "aspiring nation" or merc group using sat-com communication would have on tap. But again, once the book is out and I can read it, we can pick that up /grin. Your point about adding different layres of challenge is across and taken, its something I will think on.
Fahr, Im going to avoid explaining a response to everything here; but the rules governing falling damage, vehicle collision with pedestrians, etc can all be rather easily circumvented by an average runner (well at least our average runners). Things like a perception test to notice a car speeding towards you really put a damper on the "surprise car encounter" the Gm is planning or the whole "sewer fall" that you hope will hurt someone. And yes, the opposition will try to stay on the tech curve, but a company cant afford to sink 50k into cyber for each of its employees, runners can. Runners by default have an edge, which is what allows you to play one and win. Point is when you know what youre doing the edge remains, circumstances aside, to the point of predictability. When you trust the GM to come up with fair adventures, the players succed, its the nature of the game. GM success isnt measured in dead characters; but if they only sufficent challenge for them isnt realistic or survivable theres a gameplay issue... thats what Im trying to resolve.
Bolverk, its not about trust. We love our GMs and players, the issue isnt that they are screwing you with something out of the ordinary. Its that with proper planning, anything out of the ordinary becomes at the worst a minor setback, thus creating a situation where the outcome (success) is predictable. It only becomes unpredictable when over-the-top elements are introduced for really no reason other than to make it unpredictable. Hence the catch 22, static runs or unrealistic runs... we can make it challenging it just isnt as realistic, which goes against part of the fun for us playing. Thats the problem. Also, Id rather not post statistics on "invincible" characters without weaknesses, because it would take the focus off the discussion and potentially create discussion on the stats and how to min/max whatever. But even simple things like making all the runners willpower 5+, getting everyone into formfitting, using smartlinks where possible, making sure you observe a target before hitting it, all go a long way to success. And if you think high will parties is out of line, theres other points of view. Is it not realistic that the people successful in such a difficult and dangerous profession are those with the will to not give up, to perserver, and to overcome? I cant think of the last time I saw a fat lazy SEAL guy who gave up when things got rough... because I havent. Being a runner would weed out that crowd fast, not everyone can make it in this game (yay pun), and effective stats can reflect the fact that your character is someone who never says die. Just to play devil's advocate a bit here. =)
Tortui hit the nail on the head with the whole issue with the encounter; much like a game of chess, SR can get really into move, countermove when you get into discussions like this. Im sure you two could go back and forth for like 100 posts with the perfect counter to the situation, assuming you had the resources on hand when it happened. I know I could. But, it really all doesnt matter when the solution is nothing so elegant. If gangers jumped us, with said gear and skills (which is about average for gangers, and thus well within the reality scale), and were sporting no obvious reasons for the team to believe otherwise we would go with Plan A, and theres nothing the GM can do about Plan A. Plan A is run outside, draw pistols, shoot the snot out of everything, and let the puny gangers try to stop us. All that really cool stuff about survellinace and riggers and all aside, when push comes to shove, when the pcs have no fear, and willing jump into worst-case scenario for most teams...
Issue being that (our) average PC has enough stats to, in whatever way his character does, simply stand there and wipe out the gang. Straight up, skill 4 with 4 combat pool yields 4 successes against a base tn of 4. A body 8 pc with armor 7 will score 6 successes without doing anything other than standing there and taking it. Considering that most of those weapons do M damage, and standing and allowing yourself to be shot results in only a L wound, theres a pretty small margin to overcome to win. If you assume the PCs have things like smartlink and body 8 armor 7 on their sam-types, and do things like move and use cover, and that the gangers dont have access to heavy recoil mods and other higher end gear; the gangers dont have a chance. Spirit would be a threat, but most of the PCs also have willpower 5+, and theres a mage among them as well, which would probably down that as well. Id bet cash the players would win, based on stats alone. Which, of course, is the whole problem. GM could even the fight by adding something out of place, breaking the reality clause so to speak.
NOTE: the above is also part of the reason why I am trying to avoid hard number examples, because it puts the focus on the stats not the discussion. However, Im realizing a bit of give is needed to illustrate some points, but please try to avoid them if you can.
Hope this continues, thread is on track and Im learning everytime I check back. Thanks.
I have a suggestion. Some, actually.
1) If you are the GM, White Dwarf, give runs that are not necessarily compulsory. Like you can make it such that the runners can walk away from a Johnson after hearing his story. This is important for part 2.
2) Make it such that the opposition is very tough. More so than usual. By then, the PCs should have realised that things aren't what they seem. Maybe the Johnson lied about the opposition, or he was misinformed, or genuinely the PCs f**ked up their leg work(especially if you are rolling in front of them, then there is no fears about their GM is screwing them). In any case, the PCs should know that they are in above their heads and should get out fast.
3) Shit happens to everyone. Sometimes, a lot of shit happens to someone. Use the Rule of 1.
4) Probably the type of opposition you've come to expect is the "normal" run-of-the-mill sec guards. OK, little challenge here - minimal or no karma, but the money is consumate to the apparent risks ie don't pay them any less money. If they were paid that much before, they would get paid that much now. However, make it clear that they(as their PCs) did not find it challenging, hence little karma. You don't earn karma going on walks unless your home is in Grozny or Kosovo. That should motivate them into taking some higher risk runs like in part 2.
I think this approach allows you to inject realism as well as not making your PCs feel as if they are rail-roaded.
1) If you are the GM, White Dwarf, give runs that are not necessarily compulsory. Like you can make it such that the runners can walk away from a Johnson after hearing his story. This is important for part 2.
2) Make it such that the opposition is very tough. More so than usual. By then, the PCs should have realised that things aren't what they seem. Maybe the Johnson lied about the opposition, or he was misinformed, or genuinely the PCs f**ked up their leg work(especially if you are rolling in front of them, then there is no fears about their GM is screwing them). In any case, the PCs should know that they are in above their heads and should get out fast.
3) Shit happens to everyone. Sometimes, a lot of shit happens to someone. Use the Rule of 1.
4) Probably the type of opposition you've come to expect is the "normal" run-of-the-mill sec guards. OK, little challenge here - minimal or no karma, but the money is consumate to the apparent risks ie don't pay them any less money. If they were paid that much before, they would get paid that much now. However, make it clear that they(as their PCs) did not find it challenging, hence little karma. You don't earn karma going on walks unless your home is in Grozny or Kosovo. That should motivate them into taking some higher risk runs like in part 2.
I think this approach allows you to inject realism as well as not making your PCs feel as if they are rail-roaded.
Hmmm. Point 1 has occured before. Our only problem with that approach, collectivly, is that its very hard on the GM to create a full adventure each week thats interesting as is. If the players walk away as anything more than a rare occurance, the GM either needs to prep multiple adventures, or the group has to accept the fact they may not game every session. Im interested in hearing if youve any alternatives.
Points 2 and 4 are the goal, I think, after this thread. We do roll in the open for the most part, only using a held up hand to shield really sensitive die rolls (like an npcs bluff check in dnd or something) where the pcs arent directly involved and it would be detrimental for them to see the result. [Incidently, we do use the roll of 1, its just less common when you tend to only roll at least moderatly sized skills etc. One of the ways to minimize the chance of random screwup is to not let the guy with a skill of 1 or 2 ever wind up using the skill while actually on a run until its at 3 or 4; something you cant always do but you can try]. However, the problem is in *sustaining* this sort of campaign. If you run multiple high-risk jobs, how do you keep the players interested while being realistic. Ive been thinking about ways to include high-risk, or at least evenly-matched opposition, in a far more mainstream way, but have a few snags. How can you keep the risk in, without having mechanical security become a planning nightmare, while being realisitc? How can you bring higher level players, elite corp teams and such, into play each run, and then remove them as easily? It can seem (not always but possibly) that such higher level entitys wouldnt become involved with trivial matters, and writing adventures that they enter the plot for an adventure and then leave again as easily can be difficult to do. But if they dont get tied up and the PCs are left with a lot of loose ends, theyll soon be dead PCs. Loose ends on that level tend to wind up hunting you down. Basically, Im still trying to mull over ways of putting the PCs on a level where they interact with such elements, but dont get tied in or bogged down with them, and which dont revolve around static security because of the planning issues. Again, interested in ideas if you have them.
I like how its out of the box style thinking tho, and not railroading the players is a good point. THanks for suggestions, more always welcome =)
Points 2 and 4 are the goal, I think, after this thread. We do roll in the open for the most part, only using a held up hand to shield really sensitive die rolls (like an npcs bluff check in dnd or something) where the pcs arent directly involved and it would be detrimental for them to see the result. [Incidently, we do use the roll of 1, its just less common when you tend to only roll at least moderatly sized skills etc. One of the ways to minimize the chance of random screwup is to not let the guy with a skill of 1 or 2 ever wind up using the skill while actually on a run until its at 3 or 4; something you cant always do but you can try]. However, the problem is in *sustaining* this sort of campaign. If you run multiple high-risk jobs, how do you keep the players interested while being realistic. Ive been thinking about ways to include high-risk, or at least evenly-matched opposition, in a far more mainstream way, but have a few snags. How can you keep the risk in, without having mechanical security become a planning nightmare, while being realisitc? How can you bring higher level players, elite corp teams and such, into play each run, and then remove them as easily? It can seem (not always but possibly) that such higher level entitys wouldnt become involved with trivial matters, and writing adventures that they enter the plot for an adventure and then leave again as easily can be difficult to do. But if they dont get tied up and the PCs are left with a lot of loose ends, theyll soon be dead PCs. Loose ends on that level tend to wind up hunting you down. Basically, Im still trying to mull over ways of putting the PCs on a level where they interact with such elements, but dont get tied in or bogged down with them, and which dont revolve around static security because of the planning issues. Again, interested in ideas if you have them.
I like how its out of the box style thinking tho, and not railroading the players is a good point. THanks for suggestions, more always welcome =)
Some coments which may or may not help you, but I can't keep them to myself right now:
If your "average player" can simply stand out in the open and whipe out a gang there's something seriously wrong. Any of "my" average characters would hardly survive standing in the open and fighting three average gangers, let alone a whole gang!
Seriously, if you're at that level, you need to play with the big boys. Or you need to adjust your numbers a bit, wich would lead to crippling the characters, which you understandably don't want. A normal character in Shadowrun should not be able to whipe out a gang! And I've never seen anything like that happen. I'd say every character able to take out a gang without even using cover or tactics is ripe for retirement. This is not a problem with the game, it's a problem with your group. Of course, knowing that doesn't really help you much.
And another one: Guess what, it's the GM's f*cking JOB to screw the players (not to be taken literaly)! If he would always be nice to the players the game would be boring as hell! You would have Sec Guards helping you to carry out the loot as you leave. Who wants that? It's the GMs job to be mean. Life's tough. He's gotta make shit happen. Drive by shootings happen. And there are always factors that you haven't thought of. Always. That's just how life works. No matter how careful you are, there's always that can go wrong. Maybe someone managed to get info from the fixer over two middlemen and has therefore managed to bust the meeting. Personally, whenever something bad happens I'm not going to think "What a crappy GM, he's trying to screw us." instead I think "Shit, how are we gonna get out of this alive and still get the job done?" and afterwards I'll shake his hand, buy him a drink and thank him for the exiting game.
And if you know the system SO well that you can't be challenged by anything but the most epic runs even if your characters are only average and if you're not willing to "cripple" your characters, as you put it (I would call it "returning things to normal" or "trying to be realistic"), then I would say you need to play another game.
All of this is not meant to be offensive, even if it does sound so (and I'm fully aware that it sounds agressive). I just had to vent this off. And, even though most of this has been thought out before I wrote it, don't take everything too literally. I tend to exagerate a lot when in a mood like this.
Yours sincerely,
MrSandman666 a.k.a Murphy's Lawyer
If your "average player" can simply stand out in the open and whipe out a gang there's something seriously wrong. Any of "my" average characters would hardly survive standing in the open and fighting three average gangers, let alone a whole gang!
Seriously, if you're at that level, you need to play with the big boys. Or you need to adjust your numbers a bit, wich would lead to crippling the characters, which you understandably don't want. A normal character in Shadowrun should not be able to whipe out a gang! And I've never seen anything like that happen. I'd say every character able to take out a gang without even using cover or tactics is ripe for retirement. This is not a problem with the game, it's a problem with your group. Of course, knowing that doesn't really help you much.
And another one: Guess what, it's the GM's f*cking JOB to screw the players (not to be taken literaly)! If he would always be nice to the players the game would be boring as hell! You would have Sec Guards helping you to carry out the loot as you leave. Who wants that? It's the GMs job to be mean. Life's tough. He's gotta make shit happen. Drive by shootings happen. And there are always factors that you haven't thought of. Always. That's just how life works. No matter how careful you are, there's always that can go wrong. Maybe someone managed to get info from the fixer over two middlemen and has therefore managed to bust the meeting. Personally, whenever something bad happens I'm not going to think "What a crappy GM, he's trying to screw us." instead I think "Shit, how are we gonna get out of this alive and still get the job done?" and afterwards I'll shake his hand, buy him a drink and thank him for the exiting game.
And if you know the system SO well that you can't be challenged by anything but the most epic runs even if your characters are only average and if you're not willing to "cripple" your characters, as you put it (I would call it "returning things to normal" or "trying to be realistic"), then I would say you need to play another game.
All of this is not meant to be offensive, even if it does sound so (and I'm fully aware that it sounds agressive). I just had to vent this off. And, even though most of this has been thought out before I wrote it, don't take everything too literally. I tend to exagerate a lot when in a mood like this.
Yours sincerely,
MrSandman666 a.k.a Murphy's Lawyer
THe first thing I want to bring up is about the "walking away from the run" problem. I think I've said it before, and it won't apply or work for everyone, but I tend to very much wing my sessions. Usually during the week or two before-hand, I come up with a couple of different ideas for runs. I also try to have hooks hanging that the players can snatch up. For the runs, I come up with a basic premise, the general flavor of the opposition, and a general feel for location/atmosphere. Assuming the players accept, and they start their legwork and planning, I begin to build the final product. While they're making their plans, I avoid listening to them, building my own security setups in my head. If they ask about something I haven't thought of, I try to quickly create a logical extension to what I've been creating. In the end, it becomes a very fluid situation that's partially created by the PCs, though they usually don't know how or even that they were the inspiration for something.
If they refuse, I've got a couple more ideas on the burner, ready to be built, or perhaps try to lure them into following their own agenda for a while. I had a player who decided he wanted to spend a great deal of time and effort horribly mutilating a branch of the Seattle yakuza. It took a while, but he did it. In the end, though, it comes down to improv. I realize not everyone is good at it, capable of it, wants to do it, whatever. But it's what works for me.
The other thing I want to mention is what I call the "Oh, right, I'm first level" realization. As a player, I have a head for details, a very good memory, and can usually keep up with the GMs twists and turns. I've gamed in general for a long time, and can recognize traps, ambushes, double-crosses usually well ahead of time. This is where the real role-playing comes in. Get inside the head of your character. Figure out and learn what <EM>he</EM> knows. Yeah, you know that laser grid in a high-security air-duct is probably a two-step laser weapon. Does your character? Has your character professed an interest in the deep, dark, black-bag security stunts (here's where knowledge skills come in)? No? Then he probably won't expect it the first time. He'll learn real fast, though. That's the basis of the phrase "I'm first level". As a first level D&D character, you often don't have a lot of life experience. You'll make dumb mistakes. You might not realize two people on watch is a necessity if possible until someone points it out or it burns you.
Keep in mind, there is a difference between experience and common sense. You should know that the box on the wall equipped with millimeter-wave radar has a gun inside. But stop and consider what you might be likely missing as a character. Forget the player has played SR for too long, and has seen the tricks. Half the fun is getting burned (even if you see it coming OOC) and then learning everyone's responses to it.
Another aspect of this I ran into with the last group I played with. It was a mix of SR vets, gaming vets new to SR, and complete newbies. The GM wanted people to make characters that weren't shadowrunners, but had been forced into the lifestyle for a reason (tbd by GM and player). I had a talk with the GM that boiled down to "I've been playing for too long, I don't think I can suppress enough instincts and reflexes to play this game right". What that turned into was a corp military operative who was new to the shadows being thrust together with a bunch of complete wackjobs. I had familiarity with concepts of site security, combat training, etc. They were a bunch of dancers, poets, street urchin-cyberexperiments, and humanis twits. I got to try to shepherd them through their stupid mistakes while we all learned what the shadows were like in that GMs world. I ended up falling into that character's personality very deeply, so I could gauge his reactions on his experiences rather than mine. Made a completely new game of SR.
If they refuse, I've got a couple more ideas on the burner, ready to be built, or perhaps try to lure them into following their own agenda for a while. I had a player who decided he wanted to spend a great deal of time and effort horribly mutilating a branch of the Seattle yakuza. It took a while, but he did it. In the end, though, it comes down to improv. I realize not everyone is good at it, capable of it, wants to do it, whatever. But it's what works for me.
The other thing I want to mention is what I call the "Oh, right, I'm first level" realization. As a player, I have a head for details, a very good memory, and can usually keep up with the GMs twists and turns. I've gamed in general for a long time, and can recognize traps, ambushes, double-crosses usually well ahead of time. This is where the real role-playing comes in. Get inside the head of your character. Figure out and learn what <EM>he</EM> knows. Yeah, you know that laser grid in a high-security air-duct is probably a two-step laser weapon. Does your character? Has your character professed an interest in the deep, dark, black-bag security stunts (here's where knowledge skills come in)? No? Then he probably won't expect it the first time. He'll learn real fast, though. That's the basis of the phrase "I'm first level". As a first level D&D character, you often don't have a lot of life experience. You'll make dumb mistakes. You might not realize two people on watch is a necessity if possible until someone points it out or it burns you.
Keep in mind, there is a difference between experience and common sense. You should know that the box on the wall equipped with millimeter-wave radar has a gun inside. But stop and consider what you might be likely missing as a character. Forget the player has played SR for too long, and has seen the tricks. Half the fun is getting burned (even if you see it coming OOC) and then learning everyone's responses to it.
Another aspect of this I ran into with the last group I played with. It was a mix of SR vets, gaming vets new to SR, and complete newbies. The GM wanted people to make characters that weren't shadowrunners, but had been forced into the lifestyle for a reason (tbd by GM and player). I had a talk with the GM that boiled down to "I've been playing for too long, I don't think I can suppress enough instincts and reflexes to play this game right". What that turned into was a corp military operative who was new to the shadows being thrust together with a bunch of complete wackjobs. I had familiarity with concepts of site security, combat training, etc. They were a bunch of dancers, poets, street urchin-cyberexperiments, and humanis twits. I got to try to shepherd them through their stupid mistakes while we all learned what the shadows were like in that GMs world. I ended up falling into that character's personality very deeply, so I could gauge his reactions on his experiences rather than mine. Made a completely new game of SR.
I have a topical question that's a litttle off of the current banter.
In the game in question do the characters not have goals for their life? Reasons for shadowrunning? Do they not have some objective to meet that would get them to retire?
Surely after 1600 hours over several years there must have been literally years passed in the campaign. Characters should have amassed a fortune easily significant enough to retire, moreso they should now want to retire. They have been down a long road and they should have paid the price. The characters should have evolved as people, not thinking like they did when they were new to the business, and they should have felt the pain and loss of the death of loved ones, friends and contacts. They should be painfully aware of the loss they have endured to get to the point where they are at now.
Have they paid for the emotional cost for their success? Have they paid the ferryman in the lives of their comrades so that one morning they get up and realize that after years of this carnage and mayhem that it is finally time for them to fade silently into the shadows? Cannot they now fade from the shadow community as one of the rarest of all outcomes in this line of business: Retired sucessfully?
What are these people's motivations for not having retired?
If the game for you is truly about nothing more than the job, and not the character advancement and true achievement of following a living breating personality through his career then it will get boring. It's the interesting state of the human condition and how they can justify and endure those things that keeps a game going. The jobs themselves are just gravy, somehting to bring in the rent and define the character for who they are. It is the environment that is how the character is defined, his mythic fishbowl in which he resides.
The jobs themselves, they are well... just jobs.
In the game in question do the characters not have goals for their life? Reasons for shadowrunning? Do they not have some objective to meet that would get them to retire?
Surely after 1600 hours over several years there must have been literally years passed in the campaign. Characters should have amassed a fortune easily significant enough to retire, moreso they should now want to retire. They have been down a long road and they should have paid the price. The characters should have evolved as people, not thinking like they did when they were new to the business, and they should have felt the pain and loss of the death of loved ones, friends and contacts. They should be painfully aware of the loss they have endured to get to the point where they are at now.
Have they paid for the emotional cost for their success? Have they paid the ferryman in the lives of their comrades so that one morning they get up and realize that after years of this carnage and mayhem that it is finally time for them to fade silently into the shadows? Cannot they now fade from the shadow community as one of the rarest of all outcomes in this line of business: Retired sucessfully?
What are these people's motivations for not having retired?
If the game for you is truly about nothing more than the job, and not the character advancement and true achievement of following a living breating personality through his career then it will get boring. It's the interesting state of the human condition and how they can justify and endure those things that keeps a game going. The jobs themselves are just gravy, somehting to bring in the rent and define the character for who they are. It is the environment that is how the character is defined, his mythic fishbowl in which he resides.
The jobs themselves, they are well... just jobs.
Mr Sandman, I can understand what youre saying, but understand 2 things. First, in most, but not all, of the examples given the stats I ballparked for PCs are available out of the box. Retiring a character during his first session for being immune to gnagers sorta defeats the point wouldnt you say. Second, if its never happend in your games, no one has read the books enough to realize that item A plus item B plus item C is really effective against situation D; and then applied combinations of things to their characters in order to make sure Joe Ganger cant hurt them. With Cyberware, Formfitting, and one other piece of Armor, you too can have body 8+ armor 7/3+ and be immune to ganger fire in the open, its nothing special. So without rewriting the entier availability codes and character gen rules its not something you can fix. And if *you* dont mind having Mitsuhama Unit 13 drop in on your datasteal for no other reason that to make your life hell, as the GM tries to screw you, well more power. We would be pissed the story was making no sense. If it was Mitsuhamas data fine, but stuff like that doesnt just happen without reason, the npc entities are too important and too busy to get random assignements to make the players life hell. So be sure you understand the defintition of "screw" here as something obviously out of the ordinary and pointless, and not the random stuff that GMs do spring on characters to add tension to the run, such as the one camera they forgot about or the guy watching from the office across the hall they didnt notice, etc.
Cykotek, we also usually sitck to a similar premise, it is indeed one of the more useful ways to structure adventures. But we game once a week, every week, and with only 7 days to come up with several full fletched adventures, especially ones of the complexity that involving higher level entities in brings, well it can be difficult. After a month or so I know it would start taking a toll on the GM, so I was curious if people had ideas to help with that. I appriciate the input =)
Bitbasher, the 1600 hour figure wasnt mine, and we probably havent had a single set of charaters get close to that figure for over a year, due to storylines ending and starting and characters being recreated to keep it fresh. But yea, we do use goals and so on. Im not sure Ive conveyed this well, but basically the reason we keep playing is *for the plot*. The runs are often predictable and unexciting, but much like a video game youve played before, despite the fact you know how to beat everything you still love to spend the time clicking the buttons to follow the story and see where it goes. The plot is pretty much the reason to deal with yet another run =) Its probably the strong point of our long term campaigns at the moment. But you do highlight some good points! Its just hard to want to retire at 50 karma, and equally hard to immediatly dive into such grandiose character background in the first few runs. And its also hard to keep the same character thru the blandness. So Im trying to find a way to bring back that excitment to the adventures, so that the means is exciting, as well as the ends. Again good points.
Cykotek, we also usually sitck to a similar premise, it is indeed one of the more useful ways to structure adventures. But we game once a week, every week, and with only 7 days to come up with several full fletched adventures, especially ones of the complexity that involving higher level entities in brings, well it can be difficult. After a month or so I know it would start taking a toll on the GM, so I was curious if people had ideas to help with that. I appriciate the input =)
Bitbasher, the 1600 hour figure wasnt mine, and we probably havent had a single set of charaters get close to that figure for over a year, due to storylines ending and starting and characters being recreated to keep it fresh. But yea, we do use goals and so on. Im not sure Ive conveyed this well, but basically the reason we keep playing is *for the plot*. The runs are often predictable and unexciting, but much like a video game youve played before, despite the fact you know how to beat everything you still love to spend the time clicking the buttons to follow the story and see where it goes. The plot is pretty much the reason to deal with yet another run =) Its probably the strong point of our long term campaigns at the moment. But you do highlight some good points! Its just hard to want to retire at 50 karma, and equally hard to immediatly dive into such grandiose character background in the first few runs. And its also hard to keep the same character thru the blandness. So Im trying to find a way to bring back that excitment to the adventures, so that the means is exciting, as well as the ends. Again good points.
I think I know the problem.
the GM is not saying NO.
it is not going to get better until you disallow the kind of twinkmanship you are talking about. if every charachter always has 7/3 armor and a body of 8, than why doesn't your ganger too, if it was this easy to get, than why don't even low level opponents have it too.
I still think that this is a problem of the GM not being mean enough. or not being creative enough.
if that is not it than it is a problem of players who are not giving there charechters flaws, not the game rule, but the real life thing that makes them dynamic. if they are all the same, and it sounds to me like they are, than the GM needs to lay down the law and DISALLOW these combinations that make the PCs invincible.
earlier, in response to some of my suggestions of how a ganger might hurt someon like this, you ignored the basis of my point. Gangers are survivors, if they run into something that there guns don't hurt they WILL do something desperate and surprising. like ramming a vehicle into said guy. it may not kill him out right, but it will get him stuck under a car, and sure he could dodge if he knew they were gonna do it, but the whole point is that they are not gonna give him the chance to know what they were gonna do.
But then aain, I think the more I read from you, the less I think that you should keep playing. you are obviously not only burned out, but you seem to have lost the reasons you used to play, and are unwilling to put the sort of restrictions on yourselves and your players to make the game fun again.
lowering power levels makes you think of new ways to do things. yes with regualr starting you can build invincible killing machines, but if that is your goal, and it is boring, than CHANGE YOUR GOALS!!!
the most fun I have is playing flawed charechters that are vulnerable. or GMing for the same.
-Mike R.
change or die (so to speak)
edited for clarity and spelling
the GM is not saying NO.
it is not going to get better until you disallow the kind of twinkmanship you are talking about. if every charachter always has 7/3 armor and a body of 8, than why doesn't your ganger too, if it was this easy to get, than why don't even low level opponents have it too.
I still think that this is a problem of the GM not being mean enough. or not being creative enough.
if that is not it than it is a problem of players who are not giving there charechters flaws, not the game rule, but the real life thing that makes them dynamic. if they are all the same, and it sounds to me like they are, than the GM needs to lay down the law and DISALLOW these combinations that make the PCs invincible.
earlier, in response to some of my suggestions of how a ganger might hurt someon like this, you ignored the basis of my point. Gangers are survivors, if they run into something that there guns don't hurt they WILL do something desperate and surprising. like ramming a vehicle into said guy. it may not kill him out right, but it will get him stuck under a car, and sure he could dodge if he knew they were gonna do it, but the whole point is that they are not gonna give him the chance to know what they were gonna do.
But then aain, I think the more I read from you, the less I think that you should keep playing. you are obviously not only burned out, but you seem to have lost the reasons you used to play, and are unwilling to put the sort of restrictions on yourselves and your players to make the game fun again.
lowering power levels makes you think of new ways to do things. yes with regualr starting you can build invincible killing machines, but if that is your goal, and it is boring, than CHANGE YOUR GOALS!!!
the most fun I have is playing flawed charechters that are vulnerable. or GMing for the same.
-Mike R.
change or die (so to speak)
edited for clarity and spelling
Gangers dont have access to body 8+ and armor 7/3+ because they do not have the expense account to cover it, do not know arms dealers that can get them the goods, dont have the connections to get quality cyber implanted, and dont have the know how to aquire custom fitted body armor. This is basically the reason why a Johnson comes to *you* and not the ganger he could hire for 1% of your bill.
And no, hitting someone with a car on a whim wont work. Even if the driver in question managed to get enough successes on an acceleration test to go from dead stop to ramming speed in a single action the player being hit would *still* get a perception test to notice a car peeling out and likley wouldnt fail, cars peeling out being rather obvious. Unexpected actions fine, but when gangers really find something they cant hurt they would run, thats how you survive. Same as runners when they run from a facility after their cover is blown. It sounds to me like you just describe what happens rather than using the all the rules, which is a different style of play. Glad it works for you, but such a solution wouldnt fly for us, as I tried to explain before.
And again, without rewriting the character creation rules its hard to evenly change powerlevels. You cant just change the availability code, because things like assault rifles are still available even at 3, and other items even less. If you just lower buildpoints, all it does is land you in a different set of stats, with the "stalemate" set to a different level. It doesnt really remove the problem, it only moves where it is. This is really a whole nother problem with the equipment not always scaleing up in a balanced manner, but like modern economics dont do that either so cant really complain, just makes it a bit hard as a game system sometimes. And its not really a part of our problem specific because bad guys follow the same rarity restrictions when applicable.
We dont need restrictions, we need a new bent on the game, a new approach angle. And Ive come a long way in obtaining one thanks to many helpful posters. Please dont rant, no one else has.
And no, hitting someone with a car on a whim wont work. Even if the driver in question managed to get enough successes on an acceleration test to go from dead stop to ramming speed in a single action the player being hit would *still* get a perception test to notice a car peeling out and likley wouldnt fail, cars peeling out being rather obvious. Unexpected actions fine, but when gangers really find something they cant hurt they would run, thats how you survive. Same as runners when they run from a facility after their cover is blown. It sounds to me like you just describe what happens rather than using the all the rules, which is a different style of play. Glad it works for you, but such a solution wouldnt fly for us, as I tried to explain before.
And again, without rewriting the character creation rules its hard to evenly change powerlevels. You cant just change the availability code, because things like assault rifles are still available even at 3, and other items even less. If you just lower buildpoints, all it does is land you in a different set of stats, with the "stalemate" set to a different level. It doesnt really remove the problem, it only moves where it is. This is really a whole nother problem with the equipment not always scaleing up in a balanced manner, but like modern economics dont do that either so cant really complain, just makes it a bit hard as a game system sometimes. And its not really a part of our problem specific because bad guys follow the same rarity restrictions when applicable.
We dont need restrictions, we need a new bent on the game, a new approach angle. And Ive come a long way in obtaining one thanks to many helpful posters. Please dont rant, no one else has.
I apoloize for ranting, but you seem dead set on seeing things your way.
I have no trouble challenging my players with gangers, no I don't just "tell a story" I just play my opponents like I would play a PC, if a gang wants you dead, or thinks you are a threat to them, they will try new and ingenious ways to get you.
yes there are problems with my examples, but they are not insurmountable. nor were they meant to be the end all be all, they were just examples of different ways a gang might approach this problem.
I was trying to point out that inventiveness is what will keep the X < Y < Z mentality at bay, SRs ability to handle this sort of inventiveness is exactly why i love playing/running it.
this will be my last post in this topic, I apologize again for the rant.
-Mike R.
I have no trouble challenging my players with gangers, no I don't just "tell a story" I just play my opponents like I would play a PC, if a gang wants you dead, or thinks you are a threat to them, they will try new and ingenious ways to get you.
yes there are problems with my examples, but they are not insurmountable. nor were they meant to be the end all be all, they were just examples of different ways a gang might approach this problem.
I was trying to point out that inventiveness is what will keep the X < Y < Z mentality at bay, SRs ability to handle this sort of inventiveness is exactly why i love playing/running it.
this will be my last post in this topic, I apologize again for the rant.
-Mike R.
I once had this problem. Until I read an article from Dragon Mag.tm, that basically said that Orcs and goblins don't need to be stupid. That even "Cannon fodder" has the capability of coming up with a good plan, after all the leader didn't get to be leader unless he was more cunning then the rest.
Example: Street gangers with molotov cocktails to flush opponents from cover, have 1 of those gangers have a single Aero- grenade (that they scavenged off the streets and saved for just a situation: gangers motivation; to be promoted).
Gangers generally know their streets better than most. Use this to your advantage. If the members are holed up in a secure location picking gangers off, have the gangers come around the backside or alleyway. Surely they know the ins and outs of their turf. Remember, Gangers generally rule their turf with a certain amount of authority. Say after a firefight with 'runners, said gang leader hits up all the shops and eateries in his area looking for info. on said 'runners, after he does his Legwork he finds the 'runners typical haunt and exacts his revenge by either torching the place late at night when its closed or staging a drive-by while runners are inside.
Sec-guards are people too, if a Sec- team gets beat say one of them gets a wild hair and decides to make this 'runner team his mott for destruction since they put him out of a job or compromised his job.
Lots of threads and mini-stories come from these ideals.
And keep my 'runners quaking in the boots when deciding when and were to pick a fight with someone.
Just some ideas.
Example: Street gangers with molotov cocktails to flush opponents from cover, have 1 of those gangers have a single Aero- grenade (that they scavenged off the streets and saved for just a situation: gangers motivation; to be promoted).
Gangers generally know their streets better than most. Use this to your advantage. If the members are holed up in a secure location picking gangers off, have the gangers come around the backside or alleyway. Surely they know the ins and outs of their turf. Remember, Gangers generally rule their turf with a certain amount of authority. Say after a firefight with 'runners, said gang leader hits up all the shops and eateries in his area looking for info. on said 'runners, after he does his Legwork he finds the 'runners typical haunt and exacts his revenge by either torching the place late at night when its closed or staging a drive-by while runners are inside.
Sec-guards are people too, if a Sec- team gets beat say one of them gets a wild hair and decides to make this 'runner team his mott for destruction since they put him out of a job or compromised his job.
Lots of threads and mini-stories come from these ideals.
And keep my 'runners quaking in the boots when deciding when and were to pick a fight with someone.
Just some ideas.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Points 2 and 4 are the goal, I think, after this thread. We do roll in the open for the most part, only using a held up hand to shield really sensitive die rolls (like an npcs bluff check in dnd or something) where the pcs arent directly involved and it would be detrimental for them to see the result. [Incidently, we do use the roll of 1, its just less common when you tend to only roll at least moderatly sized skills etc. One of the ways to minimize the chance of random screwup is to not let the guy with a skill of 1 or 2 ever wind up using the skill while actually on a run until its at 3 or 4; something you cant always do but you can try]. However, the problem is in *sustaining* this sort of campaign. If you run multiple high-risk jobs, how do you keep the players interested while being realistic. Ive been thinking about ways to include high-risk, or at least evenly-matched opposition, in a far more mainstream way, but have a few snags. How can you keep the risk in, without having mechanical security become a planning nightmare, while being realisitc? How can you bring higher level players, elite corp teams and such, into play each run, and then remove them as easily? It can seem (not always but possibly) that such higher level entitys wouldnt become involved with trivial matters, and writing adventures that they enter the plot for an adventure and then leave again as easily can be difficult to do. But if they dont get tied up and the PCs are left with a lot of loose ends, theyll soon be dead PCs. Loose ends on that level tend to wind up hunting you down. Basically, Im still trying to mull over ways of putting the PCs on a level where they interact with such elements, but dont get tied in or bogged down with them, and which dont revolve around static security because of the planning issues. Again, interested in ideas if you have them. |
This is where the Meta Plot comes in. This is where the GM needs to plan something bigger just the next run, and have a further reaching agenda. Start having runs overlap one another, or slowly tie in together in some way.
Maybe they are really working for a Johnson who operates through a variety of "faces" as it were. Maybe some one or something big has taken an interest in them. They are being groomed for something Big. Or maybe they are being set up. Some one wants them to take the fall for something, and it wants them to fall far (Cyberpunk is a Noir genre after all).
Give them run after run of tough targets, even for seemingly inconsequential items and goals. After all, who can really understand the mind of a dragon, immortal elf, ancient free spirit, or eccentric multi billionaire? And the more inconsequential the better, that way the players are less likely to have their characters keep goods for themselves. Or, alternatively, include something the characters are sorely tempted to keep. Data worth millions of nuyen, rating 10 power foci, ahead of the curve gear. Really test their nature. If they are good little runners and pass on the gear as planed, then make them wish they had it later on. If they keep the gear and screw over the Johnson, make them wish they had not. Let word on the street leak out, send a teams after them to recover the merchandise, let their reputation plummet.
If this gets the characters start wondering (emphasis on the character here, if they players ask, the response from the GM should be "Is that something your character is wondering about?), then so be it. What is the big deal with making the character wonder if something bigger or more sinister is going on anyway? If the characters really want to know what is going on then they doing to investigate? That's up to them.
Heck, the GM doesn't even need to come up with a meta plot to begin with. Give them a nice pattern, two hard jobs, one easy job, followed by another one hard job, then another easy. Repeat until the characters start to catch on. The GM can always wait until the character start investigating things for themselves to retrofit the back story (the story of the goings on outside the preview of the characters). No muss, no fuss. It is something writers do all the time. I've used it myself when I took over as Storyteller for a long running LARP and in running Amber games. The players rarely notices, it allows the GM to clean up plot holes, and it makes it look like the GM had this grand scheme planned all along. And no one ever said that back story has to be final as well. There can always be schemes within schemes.
As for how realistic it is, think on this. How realistic would it be for a team of runners who can so easily walk through opposition such as normal corporate security guards and whole street gangs not attract the attention of something bigger? To use a sports analogy here for a moment, if a person is playing collage sport at a professional level of skill, how long would it really take before that person caught the eye of recruiters at the professional level? Same thing goes for those in any profession.
And what about enemies? After a while the runners are going to make quite a lot of them. Sure, the runners may be able to walk through most of their enemies if they show up one at a time, but when the enemies run across each other and start comparing notes? The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
If this stuff still doesn't work to make the game more fun and exciting, then it's time to get out. Go find another game to play. Try a LARP game. I can guarantee that you will not be able to apply such an easy danger formula when most of the plots and threats comes not from the faceless minions of a GM but from other players' characters themselves. If that still doesn't do it for you, then it's time for a new hobby entirely.
| QUOTE (sable twilight) |
| As for how realistic it is, think on this. How realistic would it be for a team of runners who can so easily walk through opposition such as normal corporate security guards and whole street gangs not attract the attention of something bigger? To use a sports analogy here for a moment, if a person is playing collage sport at a professional level of skill, how long would it really take before that person caught the eye of recruiters at the professional level? Same thing goes for those in any profession. And what about enemies? After a while the runners are going to make quite a lot of them. Sure, the runners may be able to walk through most of their enemies if they show up one at a time, but when the enemies run across each other and start comparing notes? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. If this stuff still doesn't work to make the game more fun and exciting, then it's time to get out. Go find another game to play. Try a LARP game. I can guarantee that you will not be able to apply such an easy danger formula when most of the plots and threats comes not from the faceless minions of a GM but from other players' characters themselves. If that still doesn't do it for you, then it's time for a new hobby entirely. |
Realistic. If you are doing your job well as a shadowrunner, you are not attracting attention. In fact, if you are a good runner, you will limit the kind of attention you want to expose yourself to. Just enough to get jobs or more exposure to get bigger ones.
Once again, with respect to enemies, if the runners were good, they would never have left a trace. Even if they killed someone, all they are going to leave is a corpse, if they are good. Besides, the enemy of my enemy is not someone I want watching my back.
As it is, to use White Dwarf's analogy, a chess game. Every move has a counter, and like chess, an good move may be ??!! and a bad move may look !!??.
Thanks Tortui and Sable, excellent illustrations. Ironically enough, part of the reason our characters started to avoid being built up to the 100s of karma level was in fact Metaplot. We went through a phase where every campaign became so involved with an overarching story that once that story ended it was a letdown to do something different, so we rolled a new team =). Certainly part of creating a "points 2 and 4" situation is to use Metaplot for sure, along with character motivations, to really push a story! Its in the behind the scenes planning and execution of such a higher end story Im running into flow issues; most notably maintaining that level of intrigue and realism, while keeping the game open and interesting. Its not easy to plot far down the road when players may or may not take a job, and when youve no idea how they will react to such high end players like Tir Ghosts etc, *and* on top of that keeping the mundane security high enough to be a challenge without becoming a nightmare of wires the runners have to wade thru to pull off a job. Im working on some ideas, perhaps I should post a sort of example run when Ive got it ironed out, to see if that helps with anything.
| QUOTE (The White Dwarf) |
| Gangers dont have access to body 8+ and armor 7/3+ because they do not have the expense account to cover it, do not know arms dealers that can get them the goods, dont have the connections to get quality cyber implanted, and dont have the know how to aquire custom fitted body armor. This is basically the reason why a Johnson comes to *you* and not the ganger he could hire for 1% of your bill. |
No gangers with a body of 8? Dermal plating and plastic bone lace are dirt cheap (especially if you're street scum not above buying it used...) and the former at least is exactly the kind of cheap, non-invasive cyberware a ganger might have.
All that's needed to ruin the day for an overconfident PC with 8 body and 7 ballistic armor (who can apparently just stand there and shoot it out with a whole gang, wasting combat pool dice in the process) is one ganger with a 2,500 Y smart link, 1000 Y shotgun and a 100 Y box of EX shells that was bright enough to wait around a corner while his dimwit friends were charging out into the open and getting shot to shit.
If they can afford bikes to ride on, or can manage to steal and sell the occasional car, they can afford any of that stuff - what exactly are the reasons why some of them wouldn't have it, aside from "That's screwing with the players"?
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
Realistic. If you are doing your job well as a shadowrunner, you are not attracting attention. In fact, if you are a good runner, you will limit the kind of attention you want to expose yourself to. Just enough to get jobs or more exposure to get bigger ones. |
::rolls eyes:: Whatever.
People are going to notice. Whomever fixed you up with the job will notice. If you pawn stuff off, the people you sell to or those that set up the sales meet will notice. The runner might not say anything, but this is not to say your Johnson or Fixer will not say anything.
And there are industry watchers. Someone with a vested interest in what ever or whom ever the runners hit can start doing investigations themselves.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Once again, with respect to enemies, if the runners were good, they would never have left a trace. Even if they killed someone, all they are going to leave is a corpse, if they are good. Besides, the enemy of my enemy is not someone I want watching my back. |
As for enemies, let's take your leaving a corpse as an example. There is always forensic investigators. Every gun leaves unique rifling patterns on the bullets they fire. Even today, there is talk about requiring gun manufactures to test fire rounds and keep the results on file for law enforcement. Picture if this becomes reality. These would be kept on file, for any security or law enforcement forces to track. They can then track buyers and sellers of weapons. Even if the characters purchased their weapons through shadow sources, there is still a trail that leads to a point. Eventually it can be traced.
A trace will always be left. It is impossible not to leave a trace. Watch a program on forensic investigators to get an idea of what sort of evidence can be found on even the most careful crime scenes. And considering how most players describe how their runners are act out side a run, do you really think they will really be all that careful on one? How many runners really take care to make sure not trace of them exists anywhere? When is the last time you've had a runner take the time and effort to seek out every possible picture or every trace to every record of every transaction attributed to them? How many runners refuse to have any life outside of Shadowrunning completely? That's the level you would have to take it to realistically take it even today to be as trace proof as you seem to think "good runners" are supposed to be.
And even if you have the "perfect team", that never does anything wrong and always covers their tracks in every possible way conceivable, then maybe that is exactly the problem. If you don't play a character with hooks then no hooks are ever going to get you. Why not start playing a real and realistic person, and not the disposable, generic runner that is only unpacked out of the box when it's time to go to work? Someone with family or friends? Someone with complications, goals, weaknesses and as well as strengths? Someone with a personality?
And revenge does not have to be sought just by the person that was killed. What about the scientist whose work was stole or destroyed? What about the corporate manager who was fired because of actions of the runners? What about family and friends of those who the runners killed? "Hello, my name is Indigo Montoya. You kill my father. Prepare to die."
I am not saying the enemy of my enemy in regards to runners, who are a "superstitious, paranoid lot" to begin with (to paraphrase a quote). I am talking about what happens when enemies of runners meeting up with other enemies of runners.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| As it is, to use White Dwarf's analogy, a chess game. Every move has a counter, and like chess, an good move may be ??!! and a bad move may look !!??. |
And at this point it really sounds like you and White Dwarf both are trying to fine excuses for not upping the difficulty, yet still complaining that things are too easy. Which is okay, but makes the conversation pretty pointless and going on is beginning to be a waste.
In realty, the odds of the situations you and White Dwarf have been describing are much less realistic and likely then anything the rest of us have been throwing out.
just some food for thought. Does your group/GM use the Legality rules? In reading the posts it seems to me that Law enforcement and the like are not equated in you adventures. I try to keep these things in mind so that I can be realistic. In my campaigns if your PC is going toe-toe, mano e mano with an entire gang the po-po will be all over you in literally minutes. Why? Because you cant stage a 5 minute gun battle with 4 or better people, in the open, with civilians around and not have the local police blocking the area off and arresting everyone acting suspiscious, wearing FFA (or better) armor and carrying weaponry. And what about civillians? Wanna spice things up? Tell one of your PCs that the stray shot that missed the ganger took the life of a civy ( my response as a GM to the PC, "No Karma for you this adventure. Did you really think you could wage a private war in Public with a gang without innocents being hurt?") Now I know that sounds ruff, but they have a Legality system in place for this reason.
Another example: Lonestar officer sees gangers o the move to a street brawl, officer calls in back-up, not un-realistic IMO, or is it? More to the point you cant be a shadowrunner if everyone in your immediate area knows you because of the battles you've waged. I award extra Karma for doing adventures without firing a shot. Keeps the drama alive ( for us, I realize that most people would rasberry the idea and would think that the rule detracts from the game, but as a rule self defense is self defense). I also question the idea that gangers don't have the funds, capability, or intelligence to get Black market weaponry, what are they doing then? Even if the sheer number of "special" equipment is very limited surely one gang or another has something worth while in their midst? How do they survive as a gang and not get eaten up by the others if they dont have tactics, skills and weaponry to help them.
This is just food for thought. These ideas can be applied to any situation.
You don't like using gangs? Then whats to stop the Sec gaurd from being issued a "special" weapon for duty as a "dry run for the Corporation", or the Johnson being a flat out liar looking to get even with the 'runners for another Runner group or organization.
I've even splitt my PCs into 2 seperate groups that played alternate each other... on the same run (unknowingly) until the end when I had them meet on the same night for the finale.( that adventure went Great as the PCs OOC got to reminsce about aspects of the game they left for each other).
I hope this has proved to be of some value to you.
Another example: Lonestar officer sees gangers o the move to a street brawl, officer calls in back-up, not un-realistic IMO, or is it? More to the point you cant be a shadowrunner if everyone in your immediate area knows you because of the battles you've waged. I award extra Karma for doing adventures without firing a shot. Keeps the drama alive ( for us, I realize that most people would rasberry the idea and would think that the rule detracts from the game, but as a rule self defense is self defense). I also question the idea that gangers don't have the funds, capability, or intelligence to get Black market weaponry, what are they doing then? Even if the sheer number of "special" equipment is very limited surely one gang or another has something worth while in their midst? How do they survive as a gang and not get eaten up by the others if they dont have tactics, skills and weaponry to help them.
This is just food for thought. These ideas can be applied to any situation.
You don't like using gangs? Then whats to stop the Sec gaurd from being issued a "special" weapon for duty as a "dry run for the Corporation", or the Johnson being a flat out liar looking to get even with the 'runners for another Runner group or organization.
I've even splitt my PCs into 2 seperate groups that played alternate each other... on the same run (unknowingly) until the end when I had them meet on the same night for the finale.( that adventure went Great as the PCs OOC got to reminsce about aspects of the game they left for each other).
I hope this has proved to be of some value to you.
oops wrong icon... sorry.
| QUOTE (holychampion) |
| Because you cant stage a 5 minute gun battle with 4 or better people, in the open, with civilians around and not have the local police blocking the area off and arresting everyone acting suspiscious, wearing FFA (or better) armor and carrying weaponry. |
Mostly good points, but most Shadowrun gun battles don't actually last 5 minutes (100 combat rounds), so unless the PCs are forced to staple someone's guts back in during the aftermath of the fight, the shooting will be over before someone makes the call, and the runners will be gone long before the cops respond.
First off, I do not know about White Dwarf, but I am just pointing out that for every move the GM makes, for every specific scenario you can think of, there is a counter.
Yes, there are industry watchers, but if you are careful and your fixer is careful or you use multiple fixers... I could list various examples but WD didn't ask for specifics but for generic metaplot/game things.
I can live with that, so I make suggestions generic, keeping in mind that with every move the GM(GM - singular) makes, there can be a perfectly appropriate counter from the players(and that is players - plural, more brians).
You ask about the various examples of enemies, have you considered that your players have read the SRComp too? So if they take pains to disappear/clean up/sanitise/tie up the loose ends, it still comes and bites them in the ass? Forensic evidence? Ever taken a look at the unsolved crimes files? Gee, in your world, there must really be a God of Justice then, no unsolved crimes right?
I do not speak for my runners, but I do not think that they have no personality or that PCs in games are generic, disposable ones. What I do take issue is that you do not grasp the basic complaint of this thread - how to provide an exciting game without being heavy handed if the PCs are doing everything right?
Yes, there are industry watchers, but if you are careful and your fixer is careful or you use multiple fixers... I could list various examples but WD didn't ask for specifics but for generic metaplot/game things.
I can live with that, so I make suggestions generic, keeping in mind that with every move the GM(GM - singular) makes, there can be a perfectly appropriate counter from the players(and that is players - plural, more brians).
You ask about the various examples of enemies, have you considered that your players have read the SRComp too? So if they take pains to disappear/clean up/sanitise/tie up the loose ends, it still comes and bites them in the ass? Forensic evidence? Ever taken a look at the unsolved crimes files? Gee, in your world, there must really be a God of Justice then, no unsolved crimes right?
I do not speak for my runners, but I do not think that they have no personality or that PCs in games are generic, disposable ones. What I do take issue is that you do not grasp the basic complaint of this thread - how to provide an exciting game without being heavy handed if the PCs are doing everything right?
"5 Min." is an exageration. In my campaigns I have a house rule "on S dmg from a Ballistic Wpn, make a Quickness Test. failure means to fall down."
So sometimes... theirs survivors in my campaigns. And hopefully that makes things more realistic.
So sometimes... theirs survivors in my campaigns. And hopefully that makes things more realistic.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| First off, I do not know about White Dwarf, but I am just pointing out that for every move the GM makes, for every specific scenario you can think of, there is a counter. Yes, there are industry watchers, but if you are careful and your fixer is careful or you use multiple fixers... I could list various examples but WD didn't ask for specifics but for generic metaplot/game things. I can live with that, so I make suggestions generic, keeping in mind that with every move the GM(GM - singular) makes, there can be a perfectly appropriate counter from the players(and that is players - plural, more brians). You ask about the various examples of enemies, have you considered that your players have read the SRComp too? So if they take pains to disappear/clean up/sanitise/tie up the loose ends, it still comes and bites them in the ass? Forensic evidence? Ever taken a look at the unsolved crimes files? Gee, in your world, there must really be a God of Justice then, no unsolved crimes right? I do not speak for my runners, but I do not think that they have no personality or that PCs in games are generic, disposable ones. What I do take issue is that you do not grasp the basic complaint of this thread - how to provide an exciting game without being heavy handed if the PCs are doing everything right? |
Define heavy handed. I do grasp the point of this thread and I have not seen any suggestions here that are at all heavy handed. They have all been realistic. Far more realistic then character concepts that White Dwarf has so far hinted that populate the team he or she is gaming with.
All team members with body of 8 (through attribute and cyberware) wearing enough armor to require a Quickness of at least 5 to avoid penalties? How realistic is that? How many mages would really spend that much time in their lives working out at the gym to get that body 5 or 6 when there are so many other exciting things to investigate on the astral? How many are really going to spend the time increasing all the things that go into quickness when all the other mages are hanging out talking about the nature of reality down at the bar? How may are then going to go under the knife and have cyberware implanted that will cause interference with something the rest of metahumanity sees as one of the greatest gift a person can receive? Not only that but how many people are really going to want layer their skin with something that will deaden their sense of touch? Sure, it might keep them alive on a run, but its really going to kill their intimate life.
How can players honestly demand realism and realistic encounters when the characters the players create character are not even realistic themselves? If the only characters the players create are optimized shadowrunning machines then I don't see how it is unfair that the same rules cannot be applied to eveyone they also encounter.
And as for cleaning up their act, yeah right. How many psychopaths, sociopaths, druggies, party animals, socialy inept, and lunatics characters are created compared professionals who really can move without a trace?
You want to talk about what it would really take to "disappear/clean up/sanitize/tie up the loose ends"? How many characters pick up every bullet fired in gun fight? Bullets can tell investigators type of weapon used, and even when and where it was manufactured. How many characters have the ability to patch stray bullet holes and make them undetactable? Or even disguise the wounds on people that have been shot? Those holes can tell an investigator the distance and location of the shooter and even give an idea of how tall the person firing the weapon was. How many character either use caseless ammunition or take the time to pick up every case? If they didn't, did they make sure to use gloves every single time they handled their ammunition? And thin rubber gloves don't count, those still leave finger prints.
And this is stuff that commonly looked at by forensic investigators today, in 2004, without the aid of high-end computer and 3D modeling and expert systems that will be available by 2063.
And that still leaves trace biological material around, such as hair, skin flakes, etc. To take care of that, you need magic. The spell Sanitize. How many teams make use of that spell every location they interact with? And do mages make sure to do proper background cleaning after?
Let's say there was a spirit involved, even if it was disrupted. How often to characters take on the astral quests necessary to completely destroy a spirit? If they don't there is always the chance some one will contact the spirit and start nosing around.
And how many runners mind wipe every single contact they interact while doing legwork, so the contact cannot accidentally let slip that the runners were asking questions, like say while being interrogated by Lone Star? Also, the more contacts you use, such as using multiple fixers the more likely some one will speak.
You want untraceable. That is the minimum level characters would have to work at to be untraceable. How many players even actually have their characters actually take a background skill forensics? If they don't then as a GM I would rule they would have no clue on how to clean up their act, and if they tried they would likely leave more evidence behind then they managed to clean up. Until you can prove to me that a team takes their " disappear/clean up/sanitize/tie up the loose ends" act to that level, then a GM claiming that someone with a vested interest in tracking down a group of runners responsible for runs against targets abc, xyz, and pdq doing so is not heavy handed.
Yes, there are many unsolved crimes, but the more crimes a group commits the more likely that they will leave evidence that will end up cross-referenced. From this information investigators can start building a profile of the runners. They might not have a name or a picture, but they can get a pretty good idea of what the team is like, how they operate, maybe even when they have a change in team members. And with the expert systems they have available, a flesh and blood profiler doesn't even have to be assigned. To top it all off, the more methodical and consistent the team operated, the easier it is going to build a profile on them. And if it involves a group of cop and security force killers, they will quickly get pretty high on the wanted list.
We don't even know the PCs in question. All we have are descriptions that they could probably take out a buch of gangers single handedly. I do not make any judgement on the roleplaying value or the RP skill of any of WD's players. Also I make no judgement on the realism of WD's PCs (they may actually be quite good for, all you know).
What if they can do all that - uber at combat, pick their own battles, not afraid to run if outclassed, the Grand Admiral Trawns (Star Wars) of SR? This is what I'm assuming, because this is the brief that WD gave to us. I assume that I'm dealing with good players with their PCs, no hooks, totally pro. I see a realistic challenge, you see unrealistic. For you, PCs must have flaws somewhere, somehow. Perhaps it is more real for you to have a PC with Q7 and B2, OK, I can live with that. But I am not going around dissing other people's playing style.
Someone has asked for advise with certain constraints, I give advice and suggestion based on these constraints. Perhaps his PCs started with all 4/5s in their Attributes, and gradually improved, 1 karma at a time, keeping their collective heads down, avoiding attention, etc. What is so unbelieveable or unrealistic about that?
What if they can do all that - uber at combat, pick their own battles, not afraid to run if outclassed, the Grand Admiral Trawns (Star Wars) of SR? This is what I'm assuming, because this is the brief that WD gave to us. I assume that I'm dealing with good players with their PCs, no hooks, totally pro. I see a realistic challenge, you see unrealistic. For you, PCs must have flaws somewhere, somehow. Perhaps it is more real for you to have a PC with Q7 and B2, OK, I can live with that. But I am not going around dissing other people's playing style.
Someone has asked for advise with certain constraints, I give advice and suggestion based on these constraints. Perhaps his PCs started with all 4/5s in their Attributes, and gradually improved, 1 karma at a time, keeping their collective heads down, avoiding attention, etc. What is so unbelieveable or unrealistic about that?
How many (insert whatever here) is rather unrelevant. Successful shadowrunners are by definintion the minority of the edge of a fringe culture. All those awakened characters are well over the listed population of awakened beings, but that doesnt stop anybody from playing one. Demographics really shouldnt be brought up here, because the story will use whatever is required, within reason. And its not unreasonable to surmise that a team of 4-5 individuals selected to be payed an entire years wages to commit a single crime takes steps to prevent being caught.
They dont need to be perfect, they only need to conceal enough to make it impossible to connect anything. Trackable guns can be solved by coughing up 500 nuyen a run for a new pistol each time, and is well within a runners means, for example. No need to worry about traces when you dont have the gun theyre linked to. Things like that can make it easy enough to dodge the typical investigations done by entities like Megacorps that wont go sharing the knowledge with everyone, because to do so would require them to admit to being compromised and possibly reveal shell-corporation held assets. Theres a lot of angles at work, you only need to make it harder to track you down that its worth, and you get away. And cleaning up the astral? Sanitize? How many teams do that... umm... us. We have also on occasion preemptivly geeked contacts for just such reasons, call it what you will. When its get a little bad rep or have the corp black ops team find you, you do what u gotta do. Its all biz in the shadows....
As for Holy Champions point on legality.... well we tend to play SINless individuals (ahh the irony) that are usually illegal by virtue of whatever theyve got on them. So we avoid the law, pay off the law, or kill the law. Its something like 80% of the first, 15% of the second, and 5% of the last, not like we go straight to guns there; but just being careful you dont look suspicious, having a cover story, and keeping that mage around if at all possible goes a long way to making sure its not even an issue. I mean, if you have 1 mil in illegal computer data in your trunk, and you drive the speed limit, with a seatbelt and headlights on, gun under your seat, its rather hard for the law to find out without something like a high speed pursuit to give it away. Just an example, but thats the sort of mentality that we use to get around that issue best we can. It is one thing that has caught us a few times tho, hard to always stay outta the limelight. But each time it gets harder to do so.
Keep the ideas coming please, try not to get bogged down in the stats and how relative you think they are, for us theyre perfectly fine and reasonable and realistic.
They dont need to be perfect, they only need to conceal enough to make it impossible to connect anything. Trackable guns can be solved by coughing up 500 nuyen a run for a new pistol each time, and is well within a runners means, for example. No need to worry about traces when you dont have the gun theyre linked to. Things like that can make it easy enough to dodge the typical investigations done by entities like Megacorps that wont go sharing the knowledge with everyone, because to do so would require them to admit to being compromised and possibly reveal shell-corporation held assets. Theres a lot of angles at work, you only need to make it harder to track you down that its worth, and you get away. And cleaning up the astral? Sanitize? How many teams do that... umm... us. We have also on occasion preemptivly geeked contacts for just such reasons, call it what you will. When its get a little bad rep or have the corp black ops team find you, you do what u gotta do. Its all biz in the shadows....
As for Holy Champions point on legality.... well we tend to play SINless individuals (ahh the irony) that are usually illegal by virtue of whatever theyve got on them. So we avoid the law, pay off the law, or kill the law. Its something like 80% of the first, 15% of the second, and 5% of the last, not like we go straight to guns there; but just being careful you dont look suspicious, having a cover story, and keeping that mage around if at all possible goes a long way to making sure its not even an issue. I mean, if you have 1 mil in illegal computer data in your trunk, and you drive the speed limit, with a seatbelt and headlights on, gun under your seat, its rather hard for the law to find out without something like a high speed pursuit to give it away. Just an example, but thats the sort of mentality that we use to get around that issue best we can. It is one thing that has caught us a few times tho, hard to always stay outta the limelight. But each time it gets harder to do so.
Keep the ideas coming please, try not to get bogged down in the stats and how relative you think they are, for us theyre perfectly fine and reasonable and realistic.
Actually I think a lot of those factors need not apply. Characters can make custom weapons themselves, it's easy with 2060 gear to mill a new barrel for your gun so that it's untraceable. Ballistics is a dead end so the star probably won't bother.
Skin flakes? Half the world, in the computer's mind, does not exist (SINless). Trying to trace them is a nightmare, do you think the star is really going to go through the Redmond Barrens and DNA test each squatter for matching skin flakes? They can't even afford to send in a patrol car. This is a dead end.
Magic is an actual good thing to try given the nature of lingering auras. But since, theoretically, only 1% of all shadowrunners are magical (and a similar percentage of 'Stars) they likely won't waste a mage's valuable time unless they already know magic was used. This is a dead end.
It's an old story. The police build a 10 foot wall but the Criminals usually have a 12 foot ladder ready. More crimes go unsolved now than did 100 years ago.
Skin flakes? Half the world, in the computer's mind, does not exist (SINless). Trying to trace them is a nightmare, do you think the star is really going to go through the Redmond Barrens and DNA test each squatter for matching skin flakes? They can't even afford to send in a patrol car. This is a dead end.
Magic is an actual good thing to try given the nature of lingering auras. But since, theoretically, only 1% of all shadowrunners are magical (and a similar percentage of 'Stars) they likely won't waste a mage's valuable time unless they already know magic was used. This is a dead end.
It's an old story. The police build a 10 foot wall but the Criminals usually have a 12 foot ladder ready. More crimes go unsolved now than did 100 years ago.
I've always seen it as runners being part of the unspoken system of how corporations deal with each other. No one admits to it, but everyone uses runners. If a corporation gets hit by runners, they don't have that much motivation to track down a bunch of lowlife criminals who were merely hired by a competitor. Hell, they might hire the same group to hit one of their rivals next.
However, there are lines you don't cross. If the runners get in and out smoothly, and the next day they notice their prototype is missing, they won't be happy, but they will still shrug - it's part of how business works. If the runners shoot some security guards, they might make some effort to track them down, at least for a week or so. But if the runners blow up buildings, shoot non-security personnel, and otherwise cross the line, then you will see them use all of their technological and magical techniques to track the runners down. Now, if the characters do a general crime of that sort (ultra-violent), Lone Star might not even bother with forensics - they will just lean on the shadow community until they narc on the characters, just to stop their illegal businesses from suffering.
Truly professional runners (which should be the exception, not the rule) are unlikely to ever bring down serious corporate heat on themselves. Their enemies are likelier to be security chiefs or division heads whom they have victimized, who take it personally and go looking for payback.
However, there are lines you don't cross. If the runners get in and out smoothly, and the next day they notice their prototype is missing, they won't be happy, but they will still shrug - it's part of how business works. If the runners shoot some security guards, they might make some effort to track them down, at least for a week or so. But if the runners blow up buildings, shoot non-security personnel, and otherwise cross the line, then you will see them use all of their technological and magical techniques to track the runners down. Now, if the characters do a general crime of that sort (ultra-violent), Lone Star might not even bother with forensics - they will just lean on the shadow community until they narc on the characters, just to stop their illegal businesses from suffering.
Truly professional runners (which should be the exception, not the rule) are unlikely to ever bring down serious corporate heat on themselves. Their enemies are likelier to be security chiefs or division heads whom they have victimized, who take it personally and go looking for payback.
I agree with Glyph. True professional runners would be more likely to have personalised enemies, individuals rather than a organisation or the system looking for them.
However, because of the nature of their work, true runners would have done their parts in the rise in the fortunes of certain people (especially Mr Johnsons, a string of successful ops would spell promotion). So in a perverse way, the very people that are looking for them might very well want to shield them too.
However, because of the nature of their work, true runners would have done their parts in the rise in the fortunes of certain people (especially Mr Johnsons, a string of successful ops would spell promotion). So in a perverse way, the very people that are looking for them might very well want to shield them too.
Theres a whole, WHOLE lot of bad logic and misconceptions here:
| QUOTE |
| Actually I think a lot of those factors need not apply. Characters can make custom weapons themselves, it's easy with 2060 gear to mill a new barrel for your gun so that it's untraceable. Ballistics is a dead end so the star probably won't bother. |
Nice idea, but virtually no characters have the equipment or skills necessary to do this. Beyong that, chaging barrels every time you shoot (at) someone would certainly make you memorable as the person buying gun barrels by the gross. It's far better really to change guns.
| QUOTE |
| Skin flakes? Half the world, in the computer's mind, does not exist (SINless). Trying to trace them is a nightmare, do you think the star is really going to go through the Redmond Barrens and DNA test each squatter for matching skin flakes? |
No, but those flakes get matched to each other and set up a MO. They create a papertrail of things done and methods of operation. This can add up significantly. This is analogous to someone leaving DNA or prints behinf but they dont have a criminal record. This information is kept on file, and active and oftens leads to arrests at a later date.
| QUOTE |
| They can't even afford to send in a patrol car. This is a dead end. |
Lone Star is a multi trillion nuyen extraterritorial megacorp. They can definitely afford it, it's just that most of the time there's no reason to do so. Should they decide that it needed to be done Lone Star could do damn near anything. Does that mean it's going to happen? No. But dont fool yourself into thinking they cant afford it.
| QUOTE |
| Magic is an actual good thing to try given the nature of lingering auras. But since, theoretically, only 1% of all shadowrunners are magical (and a similar percentage of 'Stars) |
This is a bad leap of logic. just because 1% of the polulation is magic that has nothing to do with the % of magically active amongst LS or SR's. In fact, LS actively recruits magically active people just like all other multinationals. There is also a general consesus that there is a disproportional percentage of megically active individuals in the shadows. Im published material typically one out of every 5 or so is magically actibe, maybe higher. In each team of 5 or so people theres always at least one mage, sometimes more.
| QUOTE |
| It's an old story. The police build a 10 foot wall but the Criminals usually have a 12 foot ladder ready. More crimes go unsolved now than did 100 years ago. |
This is a true statement that means nothing. 100 years ago there were less crimes, and FAR less people. There are more unsolved crimes because theres a whole lot more crime. The conviction rate for crimes today is FAR higher of a percentage than it was 100 years ago thanks to modern technology and its application.
Example: in a town of 1000 people there are 10 crimes. 9 of them are never solved, 1 is. 100 years later there are 10000 people living in the city. there are 100 crimes and 80 of them are solved. Guess what? that means there were more unsolved crimes than 100 years ago! That means nothing because there were 70% more convictions, there were more people caught too! thats the nature of an increasing population.
FYI: I work for the police in a civilian position.
Example: in a town of 1000 people there are 10 crimes. 9 of them are never solved, 1 is. 100 years later there are 10000 people living in the city. there are 100 crimes and 80 of them are solved. Guess what? that means there were more unsolved crimes than 100 years ago! That means nothing because there were 70% more convictions, there were more people caught too! thats the nature of an increasing population.
FYI: I work for the police in a civilian position.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| FYI: I work for the police in a civilian position. |
You mean you can work for the police in a military position too?
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| You mean you can work for the police in a military position too? |
More importantly, can you work for the police in a missionary position?
I think you can. For the secret police. Last I heard the KGB(or whatever alphabet soup they are nowadays) are hiring...
Ok, I think I'm getting closer grasp on your problem, White Dwarf, and I actually find it rather shocking.
If you indeed manage to create a starting character with the standard set of rules who can take out a gang without even trying to take cover or dodge then you're taking things way too far. No, my characters don't go looking for the absolute perfect combination of items and stats to solve situation XYZ. Why? Because it's not important to them! They're not trying to be perfect because it's not fun to be perfect. If you're trying to have a fun and exiting game with perfect characters, guess what: you're our of luck! Not gonna happen. If you want to have a fun and challenging game, try to go for something less-than-perfect. Yes, that does mean that you have to 'cripple' your characters. It does mean that you have to refrain from taking optimized combinations. It does mean that you should maybe spend some points on skills and attributes into things that won't do jack for you on a run just because it would fit the character!
When chreating their characters they don't think "Is there a more efficient way to solve this situation?" instead they think "Will this fit my character?".
So, you are indeed right. Changing the rules won't do anything for you. You need to change your attitudes! You don't need to be perfect to survive in the shadows. You need to be good at what you do but not perfect. Perfect characters are not fun to play. I intentively apply flaws and hooks and vulnerable points to my characters. They all have enough stuff that could potentially get them hurt and/or in trouble. Why? Because it's more fun and it's REALISTIC! Really, how great are the odds that a person, even though a very good shadowrunner, has not a single weakness?
And how realistic is it that a Shadowrunner who is "just starting out" (yes, I'm aware that a starting-level character is usually not new to the Shadows) is already familiar with all these uber-effective tactics and combinations.
I really don't see the motivation in playing the kind of characters you describe. Even though there still is potential for role-playing in the characters, you take the fun and challenge out of the game. You're ruining your own game!
I think it all boils down to this: change your attitude or stop playing (or keep playing and stop complaining). Any system can be broken if you try hard enough. You managed to do so with Shadowrun. Either you play halfway realistic characters (especially since realism matters so much to you) or you go do something else. Don't blame it on the game. Shadowrun has more then enough flaws but this is not one of them.
And as a side-note: my GMs don't throw irational shit at us all the time. Sometimes but not all the time. When they do, it's fun. They use it sparingly though, which is the good thing. The rest of the trouble that's coming down on us is unforseen but still rational. You can never foresee and prevent ALL the consequences of your deeds. That's just how life works. And if the GM is good at what he's doing he'll find ways to "screw you" while still staying rational.
Sorry for being so harsh but I really find no other way to say this.
If you indeed manage to create a starting character with the standard set of rules who can take out a gang without even trying to take cover or dodge then you're taking things way too far. No, my characters don't go looking for the absolute perfect combination of items and stats to solve situation XYZ. Why? Because it's not important to them! They're not trying to be perfect because it's not fun to be perfect. If you're trying to have a fun and exiting game with perfect characters, guess what: you're our of luck! Not gonna happen. If you want to have a fun and challenging game, try to go for something less-than-perfect. Yes, that does mean that you have to 'cripple' your characters. It does mean that you have to refrain from taking optimized combinations. It does mean that you should maybe spend some points on skills and attributes into things that won't do jack for you on a run just because it would fit the character!
When chreating their characters they don't think "Is there a more efficient way to solve this situation?" instead they think "Will this fit my character?".
So, you are indeed right. Changing the rules won't do anything for you. You need to change your attitudes! You don't need to be perfect to survive in the shadows. You need to be good at what you do but not perfect. Perfect characters are not fun to play. I intentively apply flaws and hooks and vulnerable points to my characters. They all have enough stuff that could potentially get them hurt and/or in trouble. Why? Because it's more fun and it's REALISTIC! Really, how great are the odds that a person, even though a very good shadowrunner, has not a single weakness?
And how realistic is it that a Shadowrunner who is "just starting out" (yes, I'm aware that a starting-level character is usually not new to the Shadows) is already familiar with all these uber-effective tactics and combinations.
I really don't see the motivation in playing the kind of characters you describe. Even though there still is potential for role-playing in the characters, you take the fun and challenge out of the game. You're ruining your own game!
I think it all boils down to this: change your attitude or stop playing (or keep playing and stop complaining). Any system can be broken if you try hard enough. You managed to do so with Shadowrun. Either you play halfway realistic characters (especially since realism matters so much to you) or you go do something else. Don't blame it on the game. Shadowrun has more then enough flaws but this is not one of them.
And as a side-note: my GMs don't throw irational shit at us all the time. Sometimes but not all the time. When they do, it's fun. They use it sparingly though, which is the good thing. The rest of the trouble that's coming down on us is unforseen but still rational. You can never foresee and prevent ALL the consequences of your deeds. That's just how life works. And if the GM is good at what he's doing he'll find ways to "screw you" while still staying rational.
Sorry for being so harsh but I really find no other way to say this.
You know what? This discussion has reached the level of pointlessness and exasperation.
White Dwarf comes in and whines about how predictable everything is and how cake all the runs have become. We ask to analyze the situation, and White Dwarf refuses to give us any hard numbers. We offer suggestions on ways to up the difficulty and reasons for why they would happen, and White Dwarf whines about how unrealistic those suggestions are or how much more work that would take. We suggest building characters with a few limitations or a little weaker then the optimized uber runners the team has been building, and White Dwarf whines about they don't want to cripple their characters.
At this point White Dwarf, it's looking like you don't want a solution after all. If you did, you would take some of our suggestions, try applying them to your group, and come back and give us the result. I'm not sure what you are looking for, sympathy for how dull and stagnant your gaming style has become maybe? I don't know, but you're not going to find it from this person.
White Dwarf comes in and whines about how predictable everything is and how cake all the runs have become. We ask to analyze the situation, and White Dwarf refuses to give us any hard numbers. We offer suggestions on ways to up the difficulty and reasons for why they would happen, and White Dwarf whines about how unrealistic those suggestions are or how much more work that would take. We suggest building characters with a few limitations or a little weaker then the optimized uber runners the team has been building, and White Dwarf whines about they don't want to cripple their characters.
At this point White Dwarf, it's looking like you don't want a solution after all. If you did, you would take some of our suggestions, try applying them to your group, and come back and give us the result. I'm not sure what you are looking for, sympathy for how dull and stagnant your gaming style has become maybe? I don't know, but you're not going to find it from this person.
I know WD, how about starting a new campaign where all the PCs work for Lonestar. Differnent pace, or change it up and make one of your PCs Gm a session. Let them feel your delima. or start gaming every other week to allow you some thinking time. Use your civy job to come up with ideas. I know I have, not every run has to be "the data Steal". Give them a murder to solve, a kidnapped victim to rescue. Just a few ideas, Have fun. ( Iget the feeling i'd have an interesting time Gming for a group like yours).
FYI: Formerly Marine MP
FYI: Formerly Marine MP
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| I've always seen it as runners being part of the unspoken system of how corporations deal with each other. No one admits to it, but everyone uses runners. If a corporation gets hit by runners, they don't have that much motivation to track down a bunch of lowlife criminals who were merely hired by a competitor. Hell, they might hire the same group to hit one of their rivals next. However, there are lines you don't cross. If the runners get in and out smoothly, and the next day they notice their prototype is missing, they won't be happy, but they will still shrug - it's part of how business works. If the runners shoot some security guards, they might make some effort to track them down, at least for a week or so. But if the runners blow up buildings, shoot non-security personnel, and otherwise cross the line, then you will see them use all of their technological and magical techniques to track the runners down. Now, if the characters do a general crime of that sort (ultra-violent), Lone Star might not even bother with forensics - they will just lean on the shadow community until they narc on the characters, just to stop their illegal businesses from suffering. Truly professional runners (which should be the exception, not the rule) are unlikely to ever bring down serious corporate heat on themselves. Their enemies are likelier to be security chiefs or division heads whom they have victimized, who take it personally and go looking for payback. |
Glyph, where exactly in my examples did I say the corporations would be tracking down or becoming the enemies of the Shadowrunners? Just about all the examples and suggested I have used are about individuals. Sure, the corporation might suck it up and just take the loss as a write off, but that does not mean that the individuals who may work for or have worked for the corporation will do so. People get pretty petty and vindictive. And depending on what position they are in with the corporation, they may be able to bring quite a few recourses to bear on their target.
As for Lone Start not investigating, we must have very different views of them. In my opinion, I would think they would be very concerned about any person our group of people who kill security guards, as being a person who kills security guards would be seen as being not very far away from being a cop killer. And giving the extra territorial nature of corporations in Shadowrun, and the fact that corporate security is the law enforcement on corporate land, the two are pretty much the same.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| I agree with Glyph. True professional runners would be more likely to have personalised enemies, individuals rather than a organisation or the system looking for them. However, because of the nature of their work, true runners would have done their parts in the rise in the fortunes of certain people (especially Mr Johnsons, a string of successful ops would spell promotion). So in a perverse way, the very people that are looking for them might very well want to shield them too. |
Why would they? Let's put it like this, I'm a big shot CEO/Great Dragon/Immortal Elf/Grand High Poobah. I've got a ton of money. Some of it made as the result of runner activity on my behalf. Unless I had a very specific and personal addenda for a specific team, why would I want to waste recourses protecting any of them? If they are eliminated, then I don't have to worry about some one writing about the runs that netted me all that cash in their memoirs. And if I need more runners they are a dime a dozen. Where as if I start trying to protect them, that can traced back to me (since, being an upstanding citizen and all that I have a SIN), which would raise all sorts of other questions.
Even some one in the middle level scheme of things would not bother. Not only do they have the same concerns as the more powerful individuals above, but they often do not have the recourses to spare even if they did.
Nope, runners are on their own. They are expected to take care of themselves. They are called deniable and disposable assets for a reason. The most they can ever hope to expect is a bullet through their brain to make sure they don't talk.
| QUOTE (sable twilight @ Feb 18 2004, 11:38 PM) |
| Why would they? Let's put it like this, I'm a big shot CEO/Great Dragon/Immortal Elf/Grand High Poobah. I've got a ton of money. Some of it made as the result of runner activity on my behalf. Unless I had a very specific and personal addenda for a specific team, why would I want to waste recourses protecting any of them? If they are eliminated, then I don't have to worry about some one writing about the runs that netted me all that cash in their memoirs. And if I need more runners they are a dime a dozen. Where as if I start trying to protect them, that can traced back to me (since, being an upstanding citizen and all that I have a SIN), which would raise all sorts of other questions. Even some one in the middle level scheme of things would not bother. Not only do they have the same concerns as the more powerful individuals above, but they often do not have the recourses to spare even if they did. Nope, runners are on their own. They are expected to take care of themselves. They are called deniable and disposable assets for a reason. The most they can ever hope to expect is a bullet through their brain to make sure they don't talk. |
Then let me put it like this as a counter: You have been in the business for a long time. You've worked for many concerns.
You have also accumulated a lot of dirt, proof of guilt/evidence/testimonials/affadavits,etc. If you are wasted, these accumulated material is transmitted to all interested parties (corps, governments, Corp Court, etc). Now then, tell me that the powers that be do not have a vested interest in the status quo that would be disrupted if certain material came to light.
If you happen to have evidence about the bomb that took out Ryoi Shiawase or have the real deal on the identity of Damien Knight, wouldn't it be in someone's best interest to keep you alive, just that bit longer? To put it in your own words, they are expected to take care of themselves, by making sure you value their continued well being.
Which in turn brings us to the topic of "He does A, I do B, you do C to counter, she does D to stop you..." and WD's point that "Let's not get specifics here". Some of the RP docters seem to want to cure the patient by curing only his symptoms(get specifics) or by killing him (go find another game, change your playing style). Well, you do not like the way someone plays his game, then don't comment, you are not being constructive.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
Then let me put it like this as a counter: You have been in the business for a long time. You've worked for many concerns. You have also accumulated a lot of dirt, proof of guilt/evidence/testimonials/affadavits,etc. If you are wasted, these accumulated material is transmitted to all interested parties (corps, governments, Corp Court, etc). Now then, tell me that the powers that be do not have a vested interest in the status quo that would be disrupted if certain material came to light. If you happen to have evidence about the bomb that took out Ryoi Shiawase or have the real deal on the identity of Damien Knight, wouldn't it be in someone's best interest to keep you alive, just that bit longer? To put it in your own words, they are expected to take care of themselves, by making sure you value their continued well being. |
The cost benefit analysis is pretty simple. If you were that much of a threat then you would have been be eliminated. That's what other runner teams are for. If runners as a whole operated on that level, blackmailing their employers all the time, which I point out is not very professional, then the Shadowrunning community as a whole would out of jobs. Remember, you don't threaten your boss when some gutter punk, who will likely work for half what your asking, will be more then happy to bullet through your head.
In addition, that "evidence" of yours is likely worthless. Johnsons don't tell you who they are, that's why they are called Johnson. Johnsons don't tell you who you are working for, they just give you a job to do. Johnsons don't tell you way the job needs to be done, they just expect the team to do it. "Your just a microscopic cog in his in catastrophic plan…" The only evidence that you would be able to supply is evidence that you were behind the bombing, or that you were hired by some unnamed employer to break into such and such laboratory and steal such and such item. If you are going behind the Johnson's back and investigating enough to get evidence against them, then word will quickly get out that your team is not trustworthy and should not be worked with.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Which in turn brings us to the topic of "He does A, I do B, you do C to counter, she does D to stop you..." and WD's point that "Let's not get specifics here". Some of the RP docters seem to want to cure the patient by curing only his symptoms(get specifics) or by killing him (go find another game, change your playing style). Well, you do not like the way someone plays his game, then don't comment, you are not being constructive. |
Well there really are not very many options here:
White Dwarf says that the outcome is too predictable, and the only thing that gives much of a challenge are medium-high level threats.
There really are not a lot of solutions here:
- White Dwarf can make characters who are of a lower power level or have something going on in their lives and a personality that extend beyond an interest in Shadowrunning.
- White Dwarf can introduce a higher level of threat to the game to keep the character on their toes.
- White Dwarf can move on and go to another game system in which the character creation does not allow them the option of mopping up low level opposition (since it seems that White Dwarf and fellow gamers can't find in their hearts to make a character with 110 or 100 build points, cuz apparently that 123 is set in stone somehwere).
- They can suck it up and just deal with the situation they have brought upon themselves, since it's becoming obvious that anything else we suggest is not going to satisfy.
If you have any other suggests, feel free to chime in, instead of just trying to out think and shoot down any suggestions the rest of us have been offering (which, to me, appears far lest constructive then anything the rest of us have been doing).
I tried to read all the posts but got to page 3 and just gave up. I hate to give an unnecessary remark to a thread so I hope I´m able to get something new in here. As I understand it Dwarf, you have a team in witch all players are well inversed in the rules and the game world. You have played the game so long that the players know virtually everything that goes on and how to handle every situation. You don´t want to play out social situations to much or at least you don´t want the players performance decide the outcome. And finally you seem to be able to counteract every suggestion made on this thread, witch probably is the reason people keep posting 
Now, I would love for my players to have some more knowledge of the rules and the gameworld, as would my players. But I can see your dilemma and I´m glad not to be in it. Considering your previous replies this won´t be easily solved. The things that come to my mind have all ready been posted. But the core of the problem seems to be that you are to on par with your game master, making the same logical assumptions as him, and therefor the right assumptions every time. You should play with a diffrent game master! Post an ad for an experienced game master and your current one could be a player intstead. You will probably be furious at the new order of things but if you bow down to the new regent things will get interesting again for sure.
Now, I would love for my players to have some more knowledge of the rules and the gameworld, as would my players. But I can see your dilemma and I´m glad not to be in it. Considering your previous replies this won´t be easily solved. The things that come to my mind have all ready been posted. But the core of the problem seems to be that you are to on par with your game master, making the same logical assumptions as him, and therefor the right assumptions every time. You should play with a diffrent game master! Post an ad for an experienced game master and your current one could be a player intstead. You will probably be furious at the new order of things but if you bow down to the new regent things will get interesting again for sure.
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