Looking at the new FAQ and its calification that genetic heritage can get you bio-ware. Using Genetic heritage to give a sac symbont with k-10 and natural immunity(removes all ILL effects) to k-10(though with being constantly pumped with it might make that unneeded) How ever you need you body after taking one dose of k-10 to be >12 thus taking a fomori for their high body low relative cost and other use full qualities or just a troll is a must. This as a fomoir with 9 body cost a total of 0.2 essence and 100bp. The same can be pulled of for just 25BP the two qualitys needed. However a constant dose of k-10 cant be used and addiction might become an issue.

Now I'm just pointing out some thing that is missions legal and very very op I mine 120k and alvbity 24 bio for 10 bp that gives you +3ip and a plus to your physical stats that's huge some any argubility on top of augmented max. Now i'm thinking of cooking this guy up as a corp super soilder prime runner.

Edited for clarity and easy of reading also cut some chaff out.

Would you please go back, slow down, and read your own post? Then we'll talk.

I can break chargen with the sample characters.

Whaaaat?

I can´t really even read this. Hurts my brain.

This

Munchkining isn't anything new kid. Just wait until you get in to making your own spells and equipment modifying.

Like the Murdercycle.

Right now this man is crying.

I upset someone the other day correcting "wait until in tact" eg meaning, "wait until in contact" (referring to two objects coming into contact with each other; not using the exact words) and correcting her English. She got so upset because she was a professional writer, but who lets her grammar go lax when forum posting.

On the internet, everybody is a writer.

Apologies for my shitty post was posting in a lecture with a migraine... I'll get to edditing it.

I myself prefer using the Genetic Heritage for Rating three Synaptic Boosters 240k bioware for free? Thank you

1) K-10 is neither a toxin nor a disease.
2) It is inevitable that you will fail the Edge test since you have to make one every time you redose (on an average of every 18.5 minutes), and then you get to be permanently berserk. This is assuming that you don't die from the crash, which your Natural Immunity can't protect you from since K-10 is a drug, not a toxin or disease.
3) Your addiction level will rapidly reach the burnout stage, which will put a serious cramp in your plans of magic, technomantic, or even cybered up supremacy.
4) Until inevitability catches up to you, and plunges you into a permanent berserk rage, YOU ARE ON K-10 ALL THE TIME! Life is a permanent psychotic episode, which will draw a lot of attention in a setting like Manhattan. Expect to be either abandoned or put down by your own co-conspirators before NYPD Inc drops a JDAM on all of you.

It does raise a point that genetic heritage should perhaps be on the banned list for SRM, too much of it seems to fall upon what in normal games would come down to GM discretion or GM adjudication.

Woad cancels berserk though, and is cheap and easy to get.

Also, regarding the drug / toxin contrast, that's been a sloppy portion of the rules forever. If people allow Slab to be used offensively (and it should be allowed in my opinion), then this should work too.

Heck, that right there could be a solution to the addiction problem. You're constantly on Slab when not on runs, making your character the ultimate super soldier. So long as he has a Full Immersion lifestyle, he's just unconscious during downtime and whenever he wakes up he gets to destroy shit, which is what he wants anyway.

~Umidori

I fail to see an issue here.

1) all drugs can be treated as toxins
2) the edge test and deff the crash are ill effects
3) no additcion test on it all the time....
4)see above

Doesn't Genetic Heritage gives you a free genetic modification (those things in the Genetech chapter of Augmentation)?
Symbionts are biotech, right?

Yeah but you can take biotech as gene ware so it auto grows back and such...

But...



So, yeah, it's up to the GM...

EDIT: I mean, the qualitie is only broken if the GM decides to break it...

Even applying the optional rule concerning the use of drugs as toxins (which means that your body of 12 makes you completely immune to drugs with their paltry Power of 6) you still haven't gotten around the bad part of using a drug every 18.5 minutes. Severity of Addiction, and the path to burnout are entirely GM discretion, since they are negative qualities.

Oh, and a sac symbiont has an availability of 24, which is higher than Restricted Gear will let you take at character creation. Last but not least, chemical glands (and by extension, sac symbiotes) can only produce naturally occurring substances, whihc K-10 is clearly not.

Genetic Heritage gives one genetic modification for free and references pg. 72

pg. 72 is the entire Genetech chapter which includes: Phenotype adjustment, Transgenics, and Genetic Infusions.

Pg. 93 (within the Genetech chaper) discusses Transgenics, and more importantly for this discussion, Animal Features. At first I just saw the title and thought..."oh yay, I can look like an animal" and then after reading the FAQ, I took a closer look....and there it was:

"Most of the functional changes available through biotech are also possible through transgenic alteration...."

So what is Biotech exactly? The referenced portion gives pg. 61 of Aug. which is the rules section for Bioware and its subparts like Symbionts and such. Biotech, is bioware

Edit: Dang...I post too slow.
Edit Edit: As for the availability, that doesn't really come into play since you're getting the piece for free, and not buying it.

I've already said that. I mean the immunity quality is GM based so are man made drugs in sacs/chem glands and so is the use of those as trans genics. I mean there are lots of places you can lock down on this. As for additction haveing a constant dose of the drug iirc bypasses it as the drug NEVER wears off.

Here's where we full stop.

Optional rules are not used in SRM. This includes most stuff that "requires gamemaster's approval", unless specifically allowed in the SRM FAQ.



-karma

No its RAW in the books GM's aprovel is normaly falited the other way in missions see all skills not implicitly bared from drone auto-softs being legal in missions.

Yeah, I was just pointing that out to show that the Genetic Heritage qualitie does not need to be banned as someone said some posts up. It only breaks if the GM allows bioware that is not recommend (in most circumstances) by the FAQ. So the problem is not the qualitie itself.

It's in the FAQ. That is not the same as the RAW.



-karma

Its a califaction of RAW. RAW its self says the same just very opapely see.

The key to your argument is a single almost throwaway line, not further elaborated on in the book, or given any sort of actual rules mechanic treatment.

It's fairly clearly tossed in as a gamemaster option. Which the FAQ confirms.

Items that require gamemaster approval by default in SRM have the gamemaster response of "No, you cannot."


-karma

Thats not true. There are a few thinks that have that line where the responce is yes yes you can.

Name one.

I'm sorry for an almost irrelevant post...but what exactly does SRM stand for? ShadowRun......

Shadowrun Missions, the ongoing or "Living" shadowrun campaign. If you'd like to know more I'd love to go into it, but it would be very off topic here.

And all the ones that are allowed are SPECIFICALLY called out in the Missions FAQ.

This isn't one of them.

I'll also point out the WHOLE LINE from Augmentation is as follows:

"Most of the functional changes available through biotech (p. 61) are
also possible through transgenic alteration for comparable Essence and
nuyen costs but longer treatment times (typically several months)."

The partial rules quote seems an attempt to be clever by omitting the fact that no actual rules on such an option are detailed. No mention of what the "comparable" Essence or Nuyen costs are. Note that it says, "comparable". Not "the same as". Also, no exact treatment times are listed.



-karma

Back when synner was a dev he posted that the skills for auto soft rule where RAW in SRM as they have the GM aprovly stamp on skill that require creative thinking. Synner stated that all skills bar the ones explicitly stated in the text where good to go.

Yeah, the forum for Missions stuff is here:
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showforum=20

But even as a general SR4 question, it's firmly in Gamemaster House Rule territory - as I pointed out, the books mention the possibility but fail to actually provide rules on how to implement the idea.



-karma

Yes they do the rules are same cost and essence os the basic bio but its a natural(geniticly natrular) part of the body so it is detected like geneware.
Also the FAQ is kind practicality a broad based errata atm.

It was by no means meant to mislead on it, just that it was the pertinent information. As you said, there were no mechanics given that listed the treatment times, nor changes to essence cost...so for the point that I was making, was irrelevant.

"comparable" is not "the same as".

It means "similar".

Not "the same".

The rules are not detailed. Therefore they have to be made up or created by the gamemaster. He might decide to use the regular Bioware costs, but that's still him creating rules that aren't in the books. A given gamemaster might decide that the prices are at 110% of the listed Bioware costs. That might be considered "comparable" too.

Again, it's gamemaster created rules. House rules.

Additionally, can you please point out where exactly it shows us how long each specific treatment takes?

The SR FAQ specifically confirms this is a Gamemaster Approval thing.



-karma

Here is the whole FAQ entry:

"Can I get bioware as genetech? If so, can I get it in different grades, and what is the Essence cost?

Sort of. Most of the functional changes available through bioware are available through the Animal Features transgenic alteration genetech for comparable Essence and nuyen costs (p.93, Augmentation); i.e., a transgenic digestive expansion would cost 0.5 Essence and 20,000¥.

The exact limitations of what is and what is not available are up to the gamemaster; as a rule of thumb for gamemasters out there: if it's in the animal kingdom already (echolocation, gecko thumbs, gills, etc.) it's probably fair game. More exotic implants like chemical glands for synthetic drugs, false front, and symbionts are a little more iffy; though anyone who's had children could at least make an argument for little parasites growing inside of you being completely natural.

Unlike bioware, however, genetech is not available in grades; therefore any transgenic alterations of this type will be based on the base Essence and nuyen cost of the bioware.

Yes, this does mean that a character with the Genetic Heritage quality can get a piece of bioware as a transgenic modification for "free" (i.e., no nuyen cost) with the gamemaster's approval; the character still has to pay BP for the quality and Essence for the bioware/transgenic modification."


So it would take 1-3 months, wich is the treatment time for the Animal Features transgenic alteration (Augmentaion, p. 93).

Note that even if you are ok with the rule that says you can have genetech that does the same thing bioware does, this rule is especific to the Animal Features genetech, so you should choose a bioware that mimics some animal feature: "if it's in the animal kingdom already (echolocation, gecko thumbs, gills, etc.) it's probably fair game. More exotic implants like chemical glands for synthetic drugs, false front, and symbionts are a little more iffy"

My point is: you can take the FAQ as RAW if you like, but to have a symbiont as a genetic alteration that is suposed to mimic an animal feature would be a (not recomended) GM decision.

How ever symbionts are inderpendent creatures. And two very aproctese can be taken here. One if a syboont can make k-10 then you can make a chem gland that dose so. Or there are animals that are born with sybontic ceatures in them to soem extent most life is an example mitochondria make a weak president though.

Serious question: could you slow down a little and read over your post before you hit submit?

How ever => However,
inderpendent => independent? interdependent?
aproctese => ???
syboont => symbiont
dose => does
sybiontic => symbiotic
ceatures => creatures
soem => some
president => precedent

I dunno, it's funnier to think of a mitochondria as President.

What platform would he run under?



-karma

not touching politics with my ten foot pole . .

Energy, naturally.

Disregarding the other issues already presented, wouldn't having an immunity to K-10 remove the "good" effects as well?

This new clarification is munchkinable enough without going this wacky anyway

My guess is Dumori is sleep deprived.
And drunk.
And high.
And probably at least one or two more things.


I literally could not decipher some of his posts (mostly because I gave up before I got a headache),and the rest takes far more effort to read than normal.

Well, it's a little murky, but as I believe was pointed out earlier in this thread, Natural Immunity does say that you can take 1 dose of the agent every X hours "with no ill effects."

The intention of Natural Immunity is that it is to be used against poisons and vemons and the like, which arguably do not have positive effects. However, if they did, those effects would be canceled as well.

If you drink chlorine in large quantities, it kills you. If you drink chlorine in very small quantities in your tap water, it makes you healthier. If you are immune to chlorine, you cannot die because of it. You also cannot benefit from it.

~Umidori

The description of Natural Immunity does mention drugs. Plus, from what I remember, they're treated as toxins in the rules anyway.

I can't find any mention of it earlier in this thread, but there are admittedly many posts that had to be decyrpted

The quality is correct, you can take a dose and not get any ill effects. You also don't get benefits, as the intention of the quality is to defend your body from the agent in question affecting you. How does your natural defenses know to leave on the good effects? It doesn't.