I would like to point out that recently most of my posts are in a state of sleep deprvation and pain from migrains. They are curently oucuring daily also these migrains rip my ability to deal with my dysliexia to shreads. So yes my posts are shocking. Really call me out on bits if needed I think I'll be able to get my points across better. I'm nither drunk or high and I'm waiting for you guys to joke my migrains are caused by my mind trying to under stand ny own posts.

I would like to point out that recently most of my posts are in a state of sleep deprvation and pain from migrains. They are curently oucuring daily also these migrains rip my ability to deal with my dysliexia to shreads. So yes my posts are shocking. Really call me out on bits if needed I think I'll be able to get my points across better. I'm nither drunk or high and I'm waiting for you guys to joke my migrains are caused by my mind trying to under stand ny own posts.

Pro-life, I'd wager.


Also, what the hell, all self-respecting browsers have built-in spellcheckers by now (that why I am still even remotely comprehensible), so posting in a style like OP's is just a sign of disrespect, towards the language and himself as much as the readers.

I'll leave out the whole issue that being immune to a drug should mean you are immune to all it's effects.
I mean, it should be pretty obvious, but let's dicuss this assuming we are taking the RAW as proverbial as possible.

There are two kinds of addiction tests :
-one kind to determine whether a character has cravings for a substance right now.
-another kind to be made at the gamemaster's discretion to determine whether a character gains the Addiction Quality or an existing Addiction increases in level.

If you are on a substance all the fucking time, yes, the GM should call for this kind of test frequently.
You are constantly binging on the most extreme stimulant ever known to man, i think this should validate tests like this.
Which means that you will also develop a tolerance to the drug's effects (see Arsenal for details), which means that you need higher and higher doses.
You'll need two doses to get the desired effects once you have a mild addiction, 4 when it becomes moderate, 8 when it becomes severe and 16 at burnout level.

A sac symbiont works like a chemical gland, which means that it can produce one dose in 24 hours and can hold up to 4 doses.
Once you get above moderate addiction level, your symbiont cannot produce enough K-10 on its own to get you high, and would need between 24 and 96 hours before that to produce sufficient amounts of a drug that only lasts for 5x1D6 minutes.
So there might be a certain flaw in your plan, even within your reading of the rules.

Yes, you could supplement your internal production with product bought off the street.
Good that K-10 merely has an availability of 16F and is sold at bargain prices of 900 a dose (which would mean 14400 to feel effects at burnout level).

And on average, you have to redose every 18.5 minutes...see where this is going?

Getting all the implants to achieve the same benefits would be much cheaper in the long run and would be easier as well.

BTW, i would have some concerns to allow a character to be born with a genecrafted version of a recently developed technology that mimicks another, unrelated, recently developed technology in the first place.

It could probably happen. though I don't think a 3-yars old toddler would be a very good runner... Remember that your genetic heritage can only get you 2050 vintage genemods.

Note : and one thing about addiction and other amusing issues : the charater would have had them straight from birth. Probably ending up as a total burnout wreck before being 5...

Ya know....I understand from a fluff and interpretation of the rules for stating that you can only get 2050 vintage genemods and such...however, what is stated, is that you could get biotech. Not biotech from SR2, or even SR3, but biotech. So for instance, when my Sam takes Synaptic Booster, R3 from Genetic Heritage.....and it works, by RAW.

Edit: Yes, I saw the whole, with a GM's approval of course.

Now imagine a child and later on teenager with suprathoid gland or synaptic accelerator . .

I'm assuming a block was implated on the sac during the chars ealryer stages. As for you there is no way to pull off constant obe dose of K-10 look over the rules for both sac and chem gland. They can both me set up to keep a contant dose in your blod stream. Also isn't addriction an ILL effect of this drug much like the 18S damage and the permanent berserk chance.

I thought the stated guideline was that the biomod had to occur naturally in the animal kingdom. While we have many animals with the equivalent of level 1 and possibly even a few with level 2, I don't know of any non-paranormal (and I don't think that genecrafting paranormal abilities is allowed) animal with 4 initiative passes. So, per the FAQ, you're not really following RAW if you allow Synaptic Booster (Rating 3) from Genetic Heritage. Sorry.

While definining an initiative pass in the real world is quite difficult, I would say a birds wings beating 1000 times a second, is pretty close to 3 IP's worth of movement. Not to mention some of the predatory cats that can tear you up before you really know it.

Beware the hummingbird-man!

Lol, now there's a mental picture that's worth it Hmm....Class III Surge.....darn, wings isn't an option

Would you that that quality for a character that's say amongst the earliest UGE babies even when there was defintively neither bioware nor genemods available ? Which is defnitively a possibility for an elf. Even more stupid, by your logic, I could make a character that's an immortal elf left over from the previous magic cycle and give him the quality. Even if he was born a few thousanf years before gene therapy was ever invented.

There's nothing in the RAW that says 'removing all your blood and replacing it with coca-cola will kill you'. But it doesn't take much common sense to apply the result. Same goes for the genetic heritage being limited to what was available at the time the character was born.

Technically... one could get Immunity (Alcohol) and then quite literally drink themselves stupid ("BAC of 30%? Really? I didn't notice..."). Thereby replacing their blood with another liquid and not dying.

Except that beyond a certain point they'd suffer the effects of blood dilution and that would kill them instead.

~Umidori

I think that falls under the "ill effects of alcohol" covered by Immunity.

The bird moves the same in SR4 with 10 beats or 1000 beats - wingbeats/footsteps/tire rotations are totally not a part of the IP system. And, looking at Running Wild, no mundane bird has more than 1 IP.


Are any such creatures statted with more than 2 IP in SR4? I do not believe so - a cheetah has only 2 IP per Running Wild, which is RAW.

It's one thing for a snake to not be poisoned by its own venom. It's another thing to drain the snake's blood and replace it with venom. *snickers*

~Umidori

This is true. The natural creatures that have been statted out, have only been given 2 IP's....which gives precedence for Synaptic Booster R1. Meaning the biotech could very well be represented in the natural world. The biotech. Which is what the rules called for IIRC. It didn't state what rating.

And using replacing your blood with coke as an example of rules not stated in the RAW is ridiculous. There's no actual rule even for replacing your blood. What we ARE discussing, is the nitty gritty of a particular rule. One that exists. And makes no mention of being limited by what was available in 2050. It does not state to go back to the SR1, SR2 books and choose from there. Not even SR3. It states biotech, and then gives the page number reference....for the current SR4 book. If you want to play it like that, that's up to you and your GM.....unless you're the GM. It does say with GM's approval afterall.

Since this whole idea is built on a RAW that includes "GM permission" I think it's fair to shoot this down with GM rulings.

First off, I'd never allow this in my game.

Second, if you treat drugs as a possible toxin, IE slab in capsule rounds or eX slipped into your drink at a rave, when a defender makes a successful resistance test he does not suffer the effects. I see Natural Immunity as a guaranteed success on resistance tests.

Now using the word "ill" as the crux of what parts effect you and what does not... that's arbitrary. Lets take slab. If you are shot with said capsule round in a fight. Well, falling into suspended animation is an "ill effect" certainly. So by that justification natural immunity prevents it. But then, you want to get some cyber and need to be put under. Oh, well now you WANT to go into suspended animation. It's not ill effects anymore so I guess you can use it now. Or eX, didn't want to get date raped so your immunity kicked in, but now that you want the charisma and perception boosts it's just fine, but that logic drop sucks so the immunity stops that part only. NOPE. That's arbitrary and cherry-picking. All or nothing.

As GM, I could say to you, "With k10 I think that the positive stat changes and berserking are ok but the IPs are bad," by that logic as it doesn't define "ill" at all, and by it's nature the word is situational.

Third. You can become addicted to ANYTHING. AR, foci, gambling, whatever. Not just drugs. A GM could rule that you become addicted to the feeling of power that comes with the positive stat change. You could burn out from that addiction in a few days. I would do this to a build like this.

There are plenty of game breaking builds, that nothing new. But don't base one off rules that require GM approval, it'll almost never fly. I can't think of too many self respecting GMs that would allow all three of these interpretations to go through.

I just read up on the chemical gland again and guess what?
You don't even have to go as far as this.

Chemical glands can only produce naturally occuring substances.

This gives you a wide selection of possible compounds, including a lot of deadly venoms and also a bunch of drugs (alcohol and "some hallucinogens" are mentioned specifically), but K-10 clearly isn't among them.


That said, a chemical gland in itself would be a likely choice for a transgenic modification, as there's a lot of animals with similar organs around.
I don't quite get why one would want to go for something as obscure as a sac endosont.



From the description, eX doesn't sound like a candidate for a date rape drug.
It's a blatantly obvious bowdlerized version of MDMA (or one of it's non-dopaminergic derivates, as eX does not have any stimulant effects).
Not quite fitted for knocking people out, i'd say.
And the empathogenic and aphrodisiac effects may ease persuasion attempts, but strictly by the rules, it would have no effect in this regard as it doesn't lower any stat used to resist social skills.

Is there anything in nature that does similar things?
Use that one instead. Or while we're at it, wanna go for a perpetual natural high?
Naturally occuring endorphines, hormones and adrenaline.

However sacs may not have that restriction. I don't have aug at hand so i cant check it.

a Sack does not produce anything, a Sac has to be filled with the stuff by hand.
Or automagically through a chemical gland.

Natural stimulants would include caffeine, ephedrine (doesn't even come close to K-10) and ecgonin, the active ingredient in coca leaves and -yeah, you guessed it- cocaine.

Which means the strongest stimulant that could be produced by a chemical gland would be something similar to novacoke, most likely with reduced effects (as it is described as an improved version of cocaine, which already has a higher ecgonin concentration than coca leaves).

Releasing adrenalin and noradrenalin would of course be an option.
In fact, it's what most stimulants do, whether we're talking about caffeine, amphetamin, methamphetamin or, hypothetically, also K-10, but it's only a part of their mode of action (with the exception of caffeine, that's entirely an adreno-agonist).
All stronger stimulants work mainly on either release or reuptake inhibition of dopamine (in the case of cocaine, throw in a lot of serotonin reuptake inhibtion as well).

I could see giving GM permission for a chemical gland that mimics the effects of betameth or other weaker stimulants based on that reasoning, but nothing as effective as K-10.




The rules say it works exactly like an internal release chemical gland.

This is only my opinion and what I would rule as a GM (I'm very liberal as a GM).

1) Any bioware is available as geneware.

2) Bioware bought (through any means, be it a quality or nuyen) is still subject to the availability and level cap rules which are the same as for bioware. At character creation it better fit these rules or the answer is no. I acknowledge that there are qualities that can get you around these rules. Because I am liberal this is fair game.

3) One way or another your character will be challenged within the game.

I imagine Shadowrun Missions would be clear about which rulebooks are allowed to be used and if anything is excluded.

As an example of synaptic booster transgenic stuff being possible, look up animal reaction times versus humans. There are definitely many creatures that can react well beyond the level 3 synaptic booster in my opinion.

I fully agree. Humans move horridly slow compared to the animal world.

Which is why humans had to invent guns and other stuff.
Do you know why there are animals that have been the same for millions of years basically?
Because there was no need for them to adapt and become even better than they allready are.

Well, the problem isn't really so much a lack of raw processing power, but rather a lack of prioritization. Humans process an awful lot of sensory information in an awful lot of ways while also pondering all that dumb crap we worry about every day with our fancy ass brains. Meanwhile, a lot of the fastest critters alive are rather small and have a few relatively simplistic reflexes and behaviors that take precedence over everything else they do. For example, water shrews are some of the fastest mammals going-- high speed cameras have shown them to typically initiate attacks in under 25 milliseconds* when they're diving and something disturbs their whiskers! It's a combination of a hard-wired, instinctive behavior, limited sensory conflict (they are primarily nocturnal and operate almost exclusively off smell and whiskers when submerged) and small size-- water shrews weigh all of 15 grams, so they actually have a bit of a latency advantage over us "big" critters simply because they don't need as many cells sending information down the pipe before it hits the brain. The size thing is admittedly a tiny consideration when compared to the complexity problem, but again, when you're talking about such fast creatures, a millisecond here and there can mean the difference between an easy meal and escaped prey.


*Seriously, that is stupid fast. Freakishly enough though, shrews have nothing on flies and spiders. Reaction times are surreal once you get down to the insect world.

I believe that the point being made was that there were animals that were fast enough to have 3 IP's, which obviously there are. I actually didn't know that about water shrews though. That's stupid crazy fast.

The only way to be really fast is to be rather dumb and small. Small creatures experience less inertia, and creatures that have a limited set of behaviors choose faster.

You can't really transplant that kind of speed to metahumans without extensive lobotomy to simplify the brain process.

Which is why I love Foamy, my lobotomized murder gnome. He fits in a backpack or large briefcase and actually rather enjoys such cramped spaces. They work in conjunction with sedatives to keep him blissfully unresponsive when he's not needed, which is most of the time. When the shit hits the fan, his handlers deploy him to kill stuff, which he primarily does by tearing out throats.

~Umidori

Lol, sounds like a gnome Universal Soldier type.

I love munchkin characters. And I say this as a GM. After all, my players include a Doom Troll (Camoflage armor, 9 Body, Aluminum bones, rating 3 dermal plates, a riot shield and a helmet. Do you have any idea what it takes to hurt that beast? ) and a Nosferatu mage.

How do you deal with these loverly (not a mispel) characters made with "RAW" who cry when you slap em with a GM "no"? You remind them that anything they can do, so can the bad guys. And anything exceptional like that will get around and the bad guys will prepare for it. Nothing gets table agreed rules interpretation faster than going up against an enemy group thats just as nasty as they are.

So you're a suped up mutant troll whos body naturally produces a synthetic drug to which you are somehow only immune to the negatives of? *scoff* The Azzies have been breeding para creatures and metahumans like that for years. Secretly, of course. And your mission is to infiltrate the [City Name] zoo, where the corperate J has heard rumors of some new experimental super metas. Oh crap, ambushed by 6 freaked out super-drug-trolls? Tough luck chummer, roll initive.

^This.

I have absolutely no problem with the GM pulling out the stops to give my team some good tough opposition. Even if its the same stops that I pulled to create my guy.

Nor do I. Unless its done by the GM to the point of dickery but then who likes GM dickery?

Too true. In the end, SR is about having fun. Regardless. It all comes down to what you and the GM can agree on, and what he'll let slide. Yes, we talk about RAW and RAI, but it mostly comes down to what's allowed. And anything that your GM allows you to do....will most likely come back to haunt you later

sounds like a dystopian pokemon

But thats 90% of the fun in a game where every one is power-gaming (yes I do play games where I RP but my power-gaming games bring up way more questions) When every one is capable of holding of a lone star HTR team you can have some fun. We tend to play those games hard and fast.

Yeah, it's really not that hard to "break the game" using the default rules. You don't have to resort to the house rules in the FAQ to do it. And, to be honest, it's far more impressive when you manage it without having to use any weird rules, interpretations, or kinda-sorta exceptions. The basics behind the Pornomancer (though it's grown to include some of the more iffy stuff over time) is a fine example of that.

See Troll Bow Adepts.
See The Ultimate Mundane Climber.
See Mr.Lucky.
See Brick.
See Two-Hands-Revy
See Pornomancer.
See Mages dropping maximum overcast Stunballs.

You can't win an argument that RAW allows more than 2 IPs through mundane transgenics when you ignore the fact that RAW has no mundane critters with more than 2 IPs.

My argument, was to show that RAW allows more than 1 IP through mundane transgenics. There's precedence to allow synaptic boosters through transgenics. That was my argument. The text states that you can take biotech as a transgenic. Which synaptic boosters are biotech. The text then suggests to GM's that they limit it to things that occur in the natural world. Which Synaptic Boosters does. It never states at the specified rating. Now, assuming that that's your interpretation, you also have to consider, that not every creature was statted out. In fact, most of the critters that are that stupid crazy fast, aren't.