What exactly is the justification for this? I understand that punching someone in the face requires more time and focus than pulling a trigger, but I don't understand how this makes sense from a balance perspective.

The idea is that it's more than a single swing or attack, but an exchange of blows and counterblows. Hence the various dodge, parry, and counterattack options available. The end result is the cumulation of all of those exchanges.

I think while pulling a trigger (still not very fast) is per muscle-spasm, a melee attack is not per punch thrown but per move. It can be a kick, a complex grabble, a "finishing move", a set up or other maneuvers. That makes them seem slower. Also yes, in the time you pull a trigger you cannot throw a punch one is a move over 1-2 cm, the other over half a meter.

EDIT: That will teach me to be this slow... yeah, what he said.

I *get* that, all you have to do with a gun is point and shoot which is a lot faster than trying to kick someone in the face, I'm just saying it gimps melee fighting somewhat.

Thus the old adage about not bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Ah, not really. (In my opinion). People with guns get penalties in close quarters, have limited ammo, no radically awesome maneuvers. (And don't forget EVIL ki-powers or contact-spells). Also it is silent (if you manage an instant takedown and succeed at a stealth-roll).

Depending on the build and type of specialization of a melee fighter they dish out up to assault-cannon damage with extra-effects. And many people don't really have that much training in close-quarter. With a gun you just need to spray and pray. Having enough mooks fill the air with lead takes down everybody... but if that dude is in melee with one of yours? can't well shoot him that easy, right?

What?

Melee combat itself isn't gimped at all. Everything you need to do is encased in that single complex action, and the myriad options you have available can be overwhelming. Tossing people around, disarming or breaking weapons, attacking multiple people at once, a finishing move attack, quick drawing, maneuvering people around the battlefield, etc. Compare that to your options when shooting someone. You get, what, a choice between shooting someone and suppressing an area, the latter of which takes a complex action, too. Melee wins by a landslide. Especially when you consider the huge diversity in weapons available. The sheer power of a monofilament whip is insane.

What's gimped is the effectiveness of melee combat in a world where everyone and their grandmother has an automatic at the ready. "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" and all that. But that has little to nothing to do with melee using complex actions or melee combat itself. It has more to do with the fact that you get your ass shot up before you get close enough to do anything.

Ah yes... in the open field: Of course not. But most fight in Shadowrun are in extreme near ranges. And depending on reaction and running speed (and stealth) it is VERY possible to just dodge once and initiate a close-quarter brawl which may shift to your specialization and leaving the foe with little choice. If they are no red samurai (which get fielded with Katanas (which they are trained in its use) and military armor) it is likely they will get their ass handed to them.

Melee requires a Complex Action, as stated, because of the various options available with it, most notable being the Interception rules.

The problem is not that melee is a Complex Action, the problem is that melee is defended against with Attribute + Skill + (Skill), whereas ranged is defended against with Attribute + (Skill).



This is solved in my game (limited playtesting at this point, but so far so good) by adjusting the defense rules to the following (has the added benefit of making Dodge 1 or 2 actually useful):

Defender Unaware: No defense test possible
Defender Aware: Attribute
Active Defense (Bock, Dodge, or Parry): Attribute + Skill (takes a Free Action to declare; lasts until your next action [even if that action is consumed with an Interrupt] )
Full Defense (Block, Dodge, or Parry): Attribute + Skill (takes a Complex Action, may be declared as an Interrupt action; lasts until your next action [even if that action is consumed with an Interrupt] )

Active & Full Defense stack, for a total of Attribute + Skill + Skill.

Block uses the Unarmed Combat skill, & may be used to defend against melee attacks.
Dodge uses the Dodge skill, & may be used to defend against melee, ranged, or area-effect attacks.
Parry uses the Blades or Clubs skill, & requires the use of a Blade or Club weapon (as appropriate), & may be used to defend against melee attacks.


These rules are used for all combat, be it a fistfight or gunfight.

Additionally, shooting someone isn't any faster than kicking them in the face. There's no Initiative penalty for using melee over ranged combat, which is the only place where the "speed" of the attack matters. A gunslinger just gets to shoot twice in most circumstances when his turn comes up, both of which are independent actions on their own. When your turn comes up, you have the option of spending two simple actions, too, but instead choose to do the crazy Kung Fu thing which eats up a complex action because, as previously mentioned, it's a huge, involved exchange of attacks, counterattacks, and secondary moves. Not just a quick aim and pull of the trigger.

Who's "faster" is determined solely by Initiative.

Now I'm imagining an epic lightning quick exchange of moves that are too fast for the normal eye to see :[)

Thanks, it sounds like I'm supposed to think that way.

I was just being snarky. The players in my game do their best to make sure that I know exactly how non-gimped well-trained melee combatants are.

Keep in mind that the Simple Action used to fire a gun isn't just pulling the trigger. It also includes the mental processes including choosing your target and deciding where to aim. The rules really don't support pulling the trigger blindly as quickly as you can, even with autofire. These are all deliberated, thought-out actions.

And yes, you're supposed to see melee as a rapid exchange of blows. Just like in any martial arts film ever produced by man.

EDIT: Oops, wrong clip.

I dont see chuck norris in that film...

I am surprised no one has brought up Bruce Lee's striking speed. (.05 seconds starting with his hand at his side) which makes it arguable that an accomplished martial artist can hit as fast as a person can pull a trigger. But before any does use this example, please be aware that such a hit must be followed by a multi second "whoooooaaaaa" and several head twists.

The other problem with melee attacks being a complex action is that drawing a melee weapon (or any weapon) is a simple action. So if you're holding a gun, and somebody charges you and gets all up in your face, it makes more sense for you to try to shoot them than to try to pull out your stun baton and whack them.

Or am I missing something?

Thanks for the responses. A quick question, what was that about attacking multiple people with a single melee attack?

Much like splitting your dice pool for multiple firearms attacks, you can do the same with a Melee Attacks... split your pool equal to the number of attacks that you take, and don't forget the penalty for switching targets...

Keep the Faith

Cuz he was probably Directing it!!! Chuck Norris that is.

Man I laughed my butt off watching that.

Now this one is more of what I think of for Melee combat.

I don't think that counts as attacking multiple people. My character rolls 12 dice on a melee attack, which is pretty good, but I don't like the idea of attacking two people with a dice pool of 6 when they get to defend with Reaction+Skill.

You split your base pool, and then add all modifiers to each attack, as normal... and yes, this makes multiple attacks against Skilled individuals a bad idea for the most part...

Against Mooks, it is not too bad...

Keep the Faith

Balance? There's no lipstick. Erhh, Balance. Ranged Combat is supposed to be better in Shadowrun.



Yeah that's a problem. There should be some way to include drawing a melee weapon in the same action you attack with. After all if the complex action is a series of attacks, feints blocks etc., then using half a second or so drawing the weapon shouldn't be so hard.

Of course there are martial arts maneuvers in Arsenal that lets you draw a blade or almost any weapon with a free action.

Modifiers as in specialization and adept powers, or do those things simply increase your base pool?

Adept Power: Improved Ability adds Skill Levels (up to 3 with a 6 Skill), so it is a part of the Skill Base...
Also, Bioware: Reflex Recorders add Skill Levels, and are also part of the Skill Base...
Specialization adds Bonus Dice, so comes after the split, applied to all pools...
Some Martial Arts Abilities would add after the Split as well...

Keep the Faith

There's an adept power as well that performs a similar function. House ruling the Quick Draw rules works (which is what the adept power essentially does), too.

Current FAQ has you add the spec dice before split.
http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#2

A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.).

Current FAQ is not Errata or rules alterations, and directly contradicts the Rules as Written in multiple instances. Current FAQ is not valid for rules debate.

This is one of those instances.

Chuck Norris doesn't have the acting chops of those guys, man.

The first borne movie had the best fight scenes in years of movies, we were coming off of slow motion bullet time everything. The second one relied too much on shaky camera syndrome, never got around to seeing the third. i preferred the books anyways.



Yup they basically said don't do this with the rule. Splitting the dice pool totally gimps you. They should have just used the normal ranged combat rule of -2 dice, they could have added extra difficulty by having the -2 apply to each attack not just the extra target, and it is already more limited in that the next target has to be within 1 meter.(I would have limited it to the character can only move a total of 1 meter while changing targets)





I don't like the faq rule, but the RAW is not particularly specific on what specialization dice are. It just says they add two dice to any test, they don't give them a specific type bonus like bonus dice. So it is probably right, I just don't like it.

Specializations do not increase the skill, they add dice.
Dice pools are specifically Skill + Attribute + Modifiers.

Anything that does not directly increase the Skill or Attribute, but does increase the Dice Pool is a Dice Pool Modifier, regardless of if it is specifically stated as such or not.

Wow, impressive underlining and bolding there. Seem pretty adamant about your point aren't you?

Just because you view information as contradictory to what you believe is true does not preclude something from debate.

Why not just ignore other things in the game you don't like? The FAQ (whether I play by it's rules or not) is a much more official source than you are.

There's certainly things I don't agree with in the FAQ, the 'clarification' on Mystic Adepts and their magic rating for one. But that doesn't mean there's no debate to be had.

In this regard it does. The FAQ isn't errata, and it's not intended to be, either. It's intended to offer clarifications about rules and situations in the game that the actual rules don't address properly. Any changes, corrections, or fixes to the rules belong in errata or an actual sourcebook. That's the entire point of errata and sourcebooks. Not some hashed together document written by a handful of people (if you're lucky) who didn't bother to double check, cross-reference, or verify a single one of their answers. And considering how many blatant mistakes and errors can be found in the current FAQ, that speaks volumes on the subject.

It's fine for the FAQ to offer a temporary solution when a real answer doesn't exist for one of the questions, but that needs to be clearly labeled and it still doesn't make it an official rule.

Not to mention that the authors of said FAQ have also specifically sated that the FAQ is not intended to, & does not, serve as Errata.

In any rules debate, the FAQ has absolutely no priority whatsoever over the printed rules or Errata. And considering just how many direct contradictions the FAQ makes against the Rules as Written, the entire document is effectively null.


Edit: I don't know just how often you read these forums, but in case you are not familiar with me, in rules debates, I provide the Rules as Written - how the game functions mechanically as printed (including Errata). If I say something is RAW, it is exceptionally rare that I am wrong (although it has happened). I also make it quite clear that I do not play RAW; my own House Errata document is at least equal in size/corrections/alterations as the official Errata. Thus, my "personal preference" has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion at hand, because it is probable that my personal preference is in direct contradiction to the Rules as Written statements I am making.

Quick question about a point on splitting pools in melee. The pool modifiers apply to both attacks? For example, a character with Agility 4 and Unarmed Combat 4 has a pool of 8. He makes a split attack giving him 4 dice as a base for each attack. If he has a specialization in unarmed that gets added to both attacks? Say its blades instead of unarmed and he is an adept with a rating 3 sword weapon focus and specialization in swords. So splitting his pool gives 4 dice per attack +2 for the specialization, +3 for the focus and +1 for reach on each attack giving final pools of 10 for the first attack and 8 (-2 for second target) for the second attack. Is this correct?

Yes, all of the modifiers (good or bad) apply to both attacks.

Just checking. Thanks Doc. I've got to do something to clean out all the old rules rattling around in my brain. I'm still thinking in SR2 & 3 terms for specializations.

Yes, if the second attack is indeed aimed at a second target. If it is aimed at the same target as the first attack, the -2 does not apply.

All a skill of 4 does is add 4 dice to your test. Saying +2 dice to your test can mean a lot of things, maybe it would have been better if they had said it gives you +2 to your skill in the specific area of your specialty but they didn't. And no things that are not labeled are not automatically dice pool modifiers, there is no RAW that says so as far as I am aware. That would make things easier sure, but unstated things are just unstated and ambiguous. That is what Faqs are for they clarify things that are ambiguous.



The -2 dice pool modifier for extra target is under ranged combat so I do not think it applies here. Though I could be wrong.

On the topic of melee, i have always played it as a true opposed test. If you try to attack me and i get more hits then you, then i end up attacking you and my extra hits add to damage. I always liked this because it makes melee combat more dynamic and exciting. Also it made combat go on abit faster.

--cang

Fastest Gunslinger Quickdraw and Fire is 0.271 Seconds

@Grimwolf
Wow, impressive underlining and bolding there. Seem pretty adamant about your point aren't you?
Muspellheimer is right about that. Specialisation is a situational Modifier to be added after splitting the Pool.And I can understand him completely,it makes me angry too,that the FAQs contradict the Rules

he who Dances like Water my Friend
Medicineman

Build a melee adept and whore out his powers in one specific direction and you'd be appalled at how much they can do with simple-action melee attacks.

Take Bear Who Digs Through Walls as an example: with simple action attacks he can dig a 2 meter tall, 1 meter wide tunnel (large enough for Bear to fit in) through concrete at a speed equal to a (real life) walking rate (4 miles per hour).

Reduce that to a complex action and he's still digging faster (with his bear hands) through concrete faster than you or I could dig through loose dirt (and only a 1 meter square tunnel to boot!)

AFB at the moment, So I can't recall if this was a house rule integrated by our GM, a sidebar or part of the main rules.

I'd consider limiting the total dice pools (after split) to Attribute+SkillX2 level.

Using the Unarmed4/Agil4 example from above, your total dice (between the two pools) would be 16.

This helps alleviate some of the runaway modifiers.

It's an optional rule which limits it to (Attribute+Skill)*2 or 20, whichever is higher. It's in the corebook, for Anniversary, at least.

Oh? Didn't know about the 'whichever is higher' bit. Thanks.

Yes, it's from SR4A, pg61, if you wanted to know the source.

What about cover? It's a valuable asset in a gunfight.

Yes, it is. It is also not always available or reliable. It does not balance out against ranged combat being defended against with Attribute, vs. melee's Attribute + Skill, often even when it is available & in use.

Yes, it is. It is also not always available or reliable. It does not balance out against ranged combat being defended against with Attribute, vs. melee's Attribute + Skill, often even when it is available & in use.

If you have less than 5 Dodge, it does. And most non-runner characters have less than 5 Dodge.

Medicineman, you seem to be implying that the fastest gunslinger can fire faster than Bruce Lee could strike. However, unless I'm missing something, 0.05 seconds for Bruce Lee is over 5 times faster than 0.271 seconds for the gunslinger.