I was browsing through the updated FAQ's for 4A, which are a heck of an improvement from the last FAQ's in terms of both breadth and detail, to say nothing of the topics selected. The amount of time spent on hacking and magic in particular seemed to mirror the length of the discussion threads I remember seeing (participating in) here. One thing directly occurred to me, so I will throw it out for everybody to chew on:


Anybody who remembers me at all will recall that I'm a huge fan of tying a SimRig into a Tac Net for a wealth of reasons. Because they have stated (and re-stated in the FAQ, actually) that each sense in a SimSense recording is an individual "track" of information which can be filtered on and off, that means the take from my eyes is, from the perspective of a Tac Net, no different than the take from an un-improved cybereye. More importantly, if I have vision enhancements, they count as well.


Now, it particularly says that a Technomancer can create a complex form, either through Threading or by learning it permanently with Karma, which directly replicates the functionality of a SimRig. They have to store the take offline somehow, but if you're feeding it right into the Tac Net, it's less of an issue. So the Technomancer learns the Tac Software as a Complex Form and adds that the aforementioned SimRig CF. Now you can put your teams Tactical Network hub behind the formidable defenses of a Technomancer's Biological Node. The Technomancer's Eyeball, Mk 1 Rev 0 is their primary visual sensor, while their Eardrums, Mk 1 Rev 0 are online as their primary auditory system. If the software can interpret smell into usable data (smell of Cordite™, or maybe gasoline anybody?) and you've got a useful warning from an often overlooked sense. Sensing the floor becoming wobbly or slippery can likewise toss up a warning, or sudden spikes in temperature… you get the idea.


Ok, so, now that I've opened that can of worms, have at it. I'd love to hear other ideas to take this basic concept even further, if anybody has any. And of course, my usual disclaimer: play nice, respect each other's ideas (even especially if you think they suck), and let's try to keep it from turning into a flame war. Vigorous intellectual debate is fine, and even a little intellectual bloodletting in moderation can make for a fun thread.



"Ale Chat!"

Skinlink other sensors into your CF'd simrig to get the signal count up. Wearing glasses/goggles with multiple vision mods counts, as would earbuds/headphones. Add in some small sensors that include radar, chem sniffers, etc and you've got a multitude of signals going into the 'Net.

(I'd also say they should be able to CF a tacnet as well, hell, they can CF a smartlink... it counts as well for their singals)

Also, good to see you again, 'Shara.

Yet another powergaming possibility for mancers. Yet another reason to ban them from the table.

Other than that, the possibilities of a simrig are indeed intriguing, especially for the team mage. Hello and welcome back, Neuromancer's Attack on the Sense/Net Pyramid!

Yeah, the SimRig will bring in anything EXCEPT Astral Perception from the mage... ok and the "mental" detection spells.

As to the power of 'Mancers, not having a Matrix Damage Track is a pretty big Achile's Heel, if you ask me. That and having NO option for Cold Sim.

Thanks for the welcome back, both you and X-Kalibur! Life got messy for a while, but hopefully this time I'm here to stay. *crosses fingers*

I'm sorry, am I missing something? How exactly is a CF SimRig overpowered, or even a benefit over a regular simrig? How is a 'mancer hosted TacNet any better than a regular one (with the sole exception of hacking a living node)? And how is a TacNet CF any better than regular TacNet software?

Best wishes to you.

What irks me about the mancers most are the Unwired Echos (Good morning, Mr. Anderson), and the sprites, which are obscenely useful. that and that they can hack anywhere, even a computer that is off the grid and not powered (see resonance quests), they can easily beef their dice pool to ludicrous levels with threading and sprites, they cannot be hacked, but can hack anyone and there is no defense against that (and even if they go the normal way, you need bleeding edge matrixware and to abuse the hell out of Unwired's rporgamming options and Arsenal's device upgrades to have a half decent chance at stopping them). Oh, did I mention they can have their machine sprites hack you while they'Re punching you thanks to the new Echos? Yes, they always run about in hot sim and take actual damage when damaged, hence. That is a certain weakness, but since you're not very likely to actually hit them, it's tolerable.

Mancers are like mages with all brakes pulled. And mages are overpowered to begin with. That is why I will not allow them as PCs in my games.

And the problem most mages have is that they lack vision/aural enhancements that can be counted as sensor feeds. The Simrig provides there. Very helpful.


Make the TM the admin of your TacNet and it is unhackable. Overpowered enough?

Also, TacNet CFs are subject to threading, are they not? If so, a Level 7 TacNet is not unviable. A level 7 Tacnet that is unhackable by anyone other than other mancers. Good thing SR4 wanterd to make the Hacker superfluous again, by introducing Neo.

Only other TMs can hack a biological node, making your TacNet virtually (heh) secure.

Not really. It doesn't change anything about the functionality of the TacNet. And it can still be hacked by resonance entities.


And I still don't see why that would be a particularly powefull advantage, let alone overpowered.
It's an advantage, yes. But it doesn't change anything about the TacNet functionality and on itself, hacking resistance offers no game breaking combat advantage, as far as the TacNet is concerned.

Are there some rules I missed?

To Hack a TM I recommend a Crescent Laser Axe.

And that is a good thing? Check out the Threading too, please.


Which would spontaneously stop being a Laseraxe, courtesy of the Machine Spirit. And then the mancer would use it's awesome Matrix Initiative and threaded Level Umpteen Skillsofts with Widget support to smack it up your face.

A TM needs time and karma to reach those states of brokeness and is fairly worthless as anything but a dedicated hacker until that time. Mages are at least more well rounded out the game... generally speaking. I can, using rules presented and the normal BP, make a hacker with 5 matrix IPs that a good number of systems would have a hard time stopping.

The big problem most people seem to have is stealth, which is a quick hot fix. Tie it to their firewall, or don't allow them to thread it higher.

If you need house rules, it is broken RAW.


KarmaGen is Neo's friend.

While that is a theoretical advantage, you will find it hard to find a group that is able to provide 14 different sensory channels EACH.



I replied to the threading above (we are abit out of sync due to the edit). I am not saying hacking resistance is not an advantage. I am saying that cannot see how it is an overpowered (read: game breaking) advantage.
If the GM wants to hack the biological node, send a resonance entity. Problem solved.
If the GM thinks that TacNet itself is too powerfuly, have it removed from the game.
If the GM thinks threading a TacNet CF (definitely a neat advantage) is too powerful, point him at the required minimum amount of sensory channels required for such a TacNet.

I can see you arguing that a TacNet CF is better than a regular TacNet and I would agree. I just can't see how you would justify to call it overpowered.

TacNets cap at 3 per RAW. (Or rather a +3 bonus) also, KarmaGen is not RAW either, invalidating that argument.

simrig supplies 5 (sight/smell/sound/touch/taste), lowlight/IR/UV/Ultrasound Googles make 4, Biomonitor is another 1, Helmet with hearing amp, filter and selective damper is another 3, Smartlinked weaopons and googles/cyber is another +1 and then everybody gets a Sprite living in their googles for that last +1. And it doesn't even take any cyber, so the team mage can do this too. This would not even cost all that much.


Optional, but last time I looked it was in Runners' Companion, so yes, RAW. TacNets are hardcapped, capping even threading? Because a TacNet CF is not a program.

Unless I missed an item in the FAQ, my copy of Unwired lists Tactical AR software as going to a rating of 4, however no software rating is ever a hard maximum, merely the maximum that can be bought.

Maximum hardcap is Processor. However, for Unwired there was a cap for buyable TacNet Software at 4 (not 3, mea culpa). Like with Skillsofts, for all I understand this is a hard cap.

Technically, the hard cap is double the System rating, thanks to Optimization, and System is only limited by how much time you have to program, since nexi ignore the Response cap that normal commlinks suffer. Someone who takes the time to write it himself can run a Rating 12 Tactical AR Network on an off the shelf 1500 nuyen nexus that they bought at the mall.

Threading, of course, bypasses all of this.

They do? Source please?

And I distinctly remember that Optimisation still caps at System. It just makes running more program "points" on any given system possible, making commlinks actually half valid.

Your list above can be disputed:

If we are being literal about that list, the vision Enhancements from the goggles in your above excemple wouldn't count, as they are neither natural nor cybernetic in natire and do not count as "sensors" but rather vision ehancements. Also, "Taste" and "Touch" wouldn't count, either, dropping your total by 6 points already. Personally, I would allow the vision enhancements from the goggles to count, but we're not arguing personal preferances here.

The next hurdle is:

That brings up a few situational questions:

-Does the Biomonitor add any relevant information in the given situation?
-Does smell add any relevant information in that situation?
-Does the hearing amplifier add relevant information in that situation? (It wouldn't during a firefight, for excemple)
-Does the sound damper add relevant information in tat situation? (It wouldn't during an infiltration attempt, for excemple)
-How does the sprite even add relevant information? (technically he would not be counted a sensor)

Even then, the maximum bonus is hardcapped:


Does your team really field 7 members? If that is the case, your TacNet is the least of the problems.


Since threading complex forms allows them to exceed ratings of 6 I would rule that a TacNet CF could be threaded past 3 as well. Not sure if there are specific rules governing it, though.

Also, you can only sustain so many threaded programs until your dice pools drop to 0.

At first I agreed with most of hermit says, but GMing with one on the team has led me to soften on them.

I've found that a lot of the techonomancer craziness can be overcome with more simplistic matrix tricks.

For instance, the tacnet is only "secure" if it's set up as a centralized tacnet, otherwise a hacker could hack anyone on the team and have at the tacnet. So everyone needs to slave their comlinks. That can be a problem in of itself. But even then, a spoof can work magic on that tacnet, since we all know encryption is fairly weak. Send the spoof to the teammates with the Access ID of the TM and suddenly enemy blips disappear, the map overlay is deleted, someone shouting "RUN!" gets modded in real time to say "ATTACK!", or since the links are slaved, just send a command to shutdown, etc. Easily turn that bonus into a negative modifier if you wanted. Won't effect the TM's info and he'll see it happening if he's isn't slotting a sim during the mission, but he'll have to spend his time devoted to stopping the spoofs and fixing the info. Or even if you don't spoof it, you can eavesdrop on it with a Capture Wireless Signal action. That can easily set up an ambush. Course, both these require you know the tacnet is there, but so does regular exploit based hacking.

Let me know if I got anything wrong there though, I'm still iffy with the matrix sometimes but I think that's all possible.


Also, I think p 125 Unwired says that "Tactical Software" has a maximum rating of 4, not 3. And the wording is "Software", not "Program" so it should apply to both Programs and Complex forms if I'm not mistaken.

Optimization caps at System. System 6 means 6 points of Optimization, which means a System 6 can run a Rating 12 program.

Unwired pg50 under the heading of "Nexi" says "Their configuration and design also means that System rating is not capped by Response."

They're a sensor system. Replace Touch and Taste with spatial recognisers in the googles and an orientation system woven into their clothes.



A Health Counter for each party member? That is far more useful than smell sensors are most of the time.


Gas, vague direction of smelly things (humans can actually smell threedimensionally).


Selective filter and it does.


It damps out the sounds the team makes, making possible to focus entirely on environment noises. Like the tiny cough from three booths away which you otherwise might not have heared for the sound of your own breathing.


Sure he does. Everything's better with Sprites. But if you dislike the Sprite, add a Radar Sensor on each party member's helmet.


4 man, 3 drones with machine sprites. If you really want to split a couple hairs, make it biodrones and count them as critters.


Me neither. If not, however, the sky is as much the limit as with everything else that is threadable.


you can sustain a couple for free with the right echos. I think there even was an exploit to make every new threaded CF subtract 0 from the DP, but I think that has been pulled by SR4A.

One other thing about Tactical AR software that puts a damper on TMs running it. Even if you can't hack into the technomancer's biological node, everyone in the team is broadcasting a huge amount of extremely valuable data which anyone with a decent Decrypt and Sniffer program can listen in on without any member of the network knowing.

it is worth noting that the simrig could just as easily be replaced with nothing more than a bunch of handheld sensors for the mage. it really isn't that big of a deal.

Not to mention, you could just jam the signals, if you wanted to.

Yes, it can be, but who says the macner needs to ask? And if the mancer is accepted ont he tweam, why not trust him as much as you'd trust the hacker?


Hard Encrypt (24 h) every commlink and you stop that dead in it's tracks.


As normal CF have a cap of (Resonance), yes. But the fun thing about threading is that it bypasses this.


I used to take the text means to say "a maximum of 6 points up to level 6". But your interpretation seems iteresting.


They still have the Hardcap of 6 on the system though. As always for mundanes, it is "to a maximum of 6".


But that'd miss the natural senses. I thought of an external simrig? Like they were around in SR1? As in Strange Days? Or is that Lostech by SR4?


Sure, but that'd be one step short of blowing up the compound, unless you specifically pinpoint the runners before, which can be pretty hard with Sprites and the mancer slicing through your guards' links like they weren't there and fucking with them.

Doesn't encrypting like that mean it'll take 24h to decrypt even with the PROPER password? It's used for highly precious information stored for later usage, not 'hot' connections, afaik.

The goggles are listed under "optical devices", not under "sensors". Taken literally, they don't count, regardless of their enhancements.
The Orientation system is not available as a non-cyberware solution. If you want a GPS, buy a GPS (which is available), but an Orientation System is cyberware only.
The Helmet wouldn't count, either, but you could use Earbuds instead, as you could interpret their listing under "audio sensors & enhancers" in your favor. Hence I won't mind the helmet, not to get held up on semantics.


That's why I pointed out the relevance ina given situation. I don't doubt the listed sensors add viable information in certain situations, but not in all situations. When they don't add relevant information, they don't count as a sensor channel.



Drones with a sensor rating of 14?



You can't have unlimited echos. You are still tied to your submersion grade.

But does their CF's count as forms of Software? My inclination is yes as they are still code, albeit code that acts in a very different manner, but still code. The quote says that the software itself is capped at 4, not a program. That CF's are not programs is obvious, but is there anything really supporting that CF's are not forms of software? I'd love to know cause I think it can make a difference on a couple of things.

Nope. It just means that you have to spend 24 hours encrypting the nodes. However, none of that works on signal encryption, so they can sniff the wireless data traffic's laughable encryption, then use a Hacking+Sniffer opposed by the receiver's System+Firewall.

In short, you spend five seconds breaking their signal encryption (which can't be Strong). You make an Electronic Warfare+Sniffer(3) test to intercept the traffic, then once you're listening in on the data coming and going from a user, then make a Hacking+Sniffer test against the weakest link in the system (like the drone, with its' device rating of 4), and start filling the network with incorrect information, all the while feeding the Tactical Network's massive pool of shared data to your own forces.

Really, Tactical AR software is a great idea, but as long as signal encryption in Shadowrun is worthless, it's a liability waiting for anyone who isn't pants-on-head retarded to exploit.

You're talking about Strong Encryption from Unwired, p66, yea? Sure, you can do that to the comlinks. But the wireless signals they are sending cannot be strong encrypted. So they decrypt-->spoof option works fine against that.

Yes, but threading ignores any CF caps. That includes this one.


Not if you encrypt a node.


Machine Sprites add their rating to everything they reside in. Sensor rating also is 6 if you do not slack trally bad in Arsenal (and the rules still boggle the mind). And you can beef up drone sensor channels with bonus components strapped to the drone if you like. Sure, that would be bending it, but tell me where it is explicitly forbidden.


A submersion of 4 or 5 is not unfeasible.

As for the TacNet: If you really rules lawyer as restrictive as possible, you can kill it, yes. But few would (relevance can always be found if you look hard enough). Also, googles are extra sensors since they are not cybernetics, by favour of your table above. It has simsense, cybernetics, other. They are 'other'.


Ah right. There is an exploit for that too, though - have an agent present on each 'link and drone that spoofs itself every 4 seconds. New encryption is according to a key that exists as a list of random numbers on the link (same lists on every link, so communication is not disrupted). To get one of these lists, you'd have to crack a link. That'll take a day though. Spoofing is defeated.

I thought it ended up in the same result but before I decide to don my flavored shoes I'll need to go home and do some reading first to back up my faulty memory.

You got a page reference for me? I couldn't find it.


Explicitly forbidden? Certainly not. Rare? Most certainly. Until I can verify your page reference I cannot further comment on that, though.


That's 70-95 Karma just for the Submersion. That's hardly beginner rate. If we are talking about teams with 70-100 Karma at their disposal, we already talk about an invoking mage. A Rating 7 tacnet isn't even worth bothering about once you have Rating 8+ Great Form spirits. But that's a different argument, forgive my ramblings.
For the full bonus of a rating 7 TacNet, you'd still need 9 group members, each contributing 14 relevant sensor channels. That's going to be hard to find, even with such high submersion grades.


You cannot argue something is overpowered, when you are lenient on the rules. You need to look at the RAW. If your house rules make something overpowered, change the house rules.
The Goggles are listed under vision enhancements. Sensors come farther down the Rulebook. Your GM can allow them if he wants to (I would), but strictly by the RAW, they don't count.
There are three seperate categories:
Natural Senses, Cybernetic Senses and Sensor Systems. The goggles don't count for the first two and they are not listed as sensor systems (which is why you cannot add a MAD scanner to your goggles).

Not a problem. Guessing that shared encrpytion key is exactly what the Decrypt program does, and something as crude as a shared static key is probably going to be a very, very low level Encrypt program.

Damned Double Post...

You do realize that a Technomancer can be jammed just like any other signal... and because their signal is tied to their Resonance, it is really not all that hard to jam them... Of course, once a Technomancer's Resonance surpasses 6, then you have some issues, but they are not the uber-gods that hey are made out to be...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

And how exactly is a Crescent Laser Axe Hackable? Please provide a relevant source... You still need a node for the sprite to inhabit, no Node, no inhabitation by the Sprite... and last I checked, a LAser Crescent Axe is not a node...

Keep the Faith

EDIT... Missed Hermits Post... Damned similar Icons are confusing... Sorry for the redundant information

Tacnets actually Cap out at +4 Bonus (Unless I missed an Eratta somewhere, this is located on Pages 125-126 of Unwired... Rating 4 is the Max.), and requires a team of 6 seperate individuals (at the least) each with at least 8 seperate channels to obtain... now, it is not all that hard to achieve * channels, but Threading above +4 does not actually help, as that is the cap... so waste of time for the Technomancer...

Keep the Faith

Once they're at the game-breaking point of having two levels of Swap, they can thread up an ECCM form to overcome the jamming fairly easily and sustain it for as long as they want.

This is true... no doubt... but as you said earlier (I think that it was you anyways), by the time that the Technomancer is playing with his multiple levels of Submersion, it is a whole different game...

We have a technomancer in our group with about 4-5 levels of Submersion (I believe that he has about 230 Karma or so. maybe more) and he is powerful on some levels, however, the Team Hacker (My Cyberlogician) still has things that he can do that the Technomancer just has issues with... in the end, I would say that we are about equivalent in most things, with some Matrix Actions in which HE Excels, and other Matrix Actions in which I Excel... but he is not so powerful that he cannot be controlled...

Keep the Faith

Heh. Hahaha. Ha.


Sorry, my technomancer laughs and laughs at that one.

Yeah... How many Technomancers actually tell their teammates that they are a Technomancer?

Keep the Faith

You know, this makes me think of something from John Ringo's "Live Free Or Die". An alien with hyper-advanced computer implants accidentally hacks into people's private files, because it's hard NOT to look past meaningless defenses. I see 'Mancers largely in that light, that they tend to drift a bit subconciously and to them digital privacy would be limited at best.

Just my thought.

Sure, as long as you ignore Unwired.

Page 112: "Although normal programs are only commercially available to a maximum rating of 6, cutting edge software with a rating of 7 or higher does exist."

Page 78 (Diez de Octubre Airbase, Aztlan): "Node 4: Firewall 6, Response 7, Signal 2, System 7"
Page 79 (Zurich Orbital Terrestrial Substation, New York): "Firewall 9, Response 8, Signal 4, System 8 (all nodes)"

Yes, these are extreme cases, but certainly not Resonance-based.

Invest 7 or 11 karma into an ECCM CF, and things that are actually able to jam you will be rare.

Everything electronic is a node. Your toaster, your music player, your Victory massaging underpants. And if it has no node, it has an RFID. A mancer who has this electrotouch Echo can hack at touch, whether or not that node is even matrix capable. There you have it, your axe has been hacked.


Yes, exactly what I have been saying. Fairly soon, a mancer becomes too powerful to be controlled. If your team mancer is not, it is because the player gimps him or does not see the exploits he has at hand.


It means I exploit the Scripts rule, not that it makes sense in-game. Also, with an umpteen bit code, you eventually reach the point where there is not enough processing power to bruteforce it. Of course, this only highlights the fucked up state of encryption in 4th.


I can argue, however, that we should abide by the core book that says "what is not expressively forbidden is legal", and not a restrictive "if it is not explicitly mentioned as legal, it is forbidden", which is what your stance is. RAW, if you will, dictate the first stance, though.


Why 9? We need 7, don't we? Although sprites count, and therefore, hjust putting soe into surveillance drones should do the trick.


Diagnosis power, but it seems hard to apply this to tacnets, unless you count it as aiding whoever uses the tacnet. IT'd also add (power*2)/3, not it's power. Page reference would be for the German basic book and as such useless to you, but here you go: pp 236.

If you need to use an optional rule for it to be broken, it is not broken.


Graywulfe

That's why runners should do EMCON during a job. If you keep all that stuff running a technomancer is the least of your problems, the army of Red Samurai and drones who could easily pinpoint your position thanks to that electromagnetic christmas tree will probably be worse.


I'm in ur marker, changin all ur serial numurz
No shit, that's gonna hurt ^^

Speaking of stuff that hurts, if the TM can still hack with a laser axe in his head he deserves it


When in operation, tacnets provide dice pool bonuses for certain actions. The dice pool bonus is based on the number of team members (that is, each member that is supplying the minimum amount of sensor channels). The bonus equals the total number of team members minus 2 (you need at least 3 members to have an effective tacnet, so the first two don’t count), up to a maximum equal to the software’s rating. So a team running Rating 4 tacnet software with 7 team members gets a dice pool bonus of +4 (the maximum). A team running Rating 4 with 4 team members gets a +2 dice pool bonus (4 – 2).