So, do technomancers get a +2 dice bonus to all Matrix tests for free? Is there a possibility of addiction? Do technomancers always use their living persona or is it a concious choice to do so?

By definition, they are always Hot Sim, which has a potential for addiction similar (but less intense) than a BTL. That's straight out of Unwired. And the can only interact via a conventional avatar (rather than the Living Persona) by using a normal comlink w/ a completely duplicative set of skills (Read: Hacking ™ and Hacking (Normal)).

So the only way for a Technomancer to avoid becoming addicted to their Matrix use is to either not do what they essentially live for or to pay double for everything and buy duplicate programs and complex forms for everything? That seems unnecessarily harsh, like possibly giving a mage focus addiction just for casting normal spells.

As far as I can tell, there is nothing that says that a Technomancer cannot use AR, they would just not get the bonus...
And besides, otherwise it is very hard for them to do anything, as their penalties to do anything while in VR would completely cripple them...

Keep the Faith

Um, don't take what I said that strictly. The idea, like Tymeaus Jalynsfein said above, is to have the TM spend most of their time in the meat world simply interacting "intuitively" by AR. If you haven't read Unwired (the fluff sections) pertaining to Technomancers, I strongly suggest you do so. It had a LOT of good flavor. And they also have a section about a eScapist (it's a Stream) and their apparent addiction to the Matrix, which they consider more real than the meat world, to the point they have an eating disorder. The average Decker does the majority of their simple work in AR, only going VR for things requiring more close interaction (and I am referring to this from the perspective of "percent of the waking day"). If your 'Mancer (or Decker for that matter, since it's brought up in another section with similar injunctions) is spending all their game time remote via telepresence using Hot VR, then you need to let them start feeling the starting signs of addiction. If they don't get the hint, then they deserve what they get. The exact same goes for Focus Addiction. The mechanic provided isn't meant to be a hard-line restriction, but more of a guideline to let the GM know when the player is starting to get (habitually) into dangerous territory.

And remember, at the lowest levels, mild addictions are easily written off by the character, and it's not that difficult (unless it's a really powerful substance like a BtL or NovaCoke) to keep from progressing to the next stages unless you have poor WILlpower (and the player is a willful idiot).

It's not really something you need to harp on beyond making sure your player is aware of the "feeling" it can give the character to be in Hot Sim - the direct comparison to BtL should get your point across nicely - before you start; Most players will take the hint and keep it from getting stupid.

I hope that's helpful. Everything in moderation is the rule... and that goes for GM nannying as well.

What penalties?

Does it take extra time or actions to slip into virtual reality instead?

I'm not seeing the word eScapist in Unwired, but I did find the section on the girl with the eating disorder on p133.

Thanks you two -- feel free to respond more

e-Scapists, Unwired P.138
Not all technomancers are deeply rooted in the real world. With the Sixth World being an inhospitable place for a lot of people in the ’70s, some technomancers, called e-scapists or sculptors, consider cyberspace a better world that users can shape into their own utopias. Although still bound by their mortal bodies, e-scapists try to escape reality as often as possible, embracing virtual reality wholeheartedly as the only world where they truly fit in. As the real world becomes a second home (viewing their real lives as virtual avatars like those used in the first decade of the 21st century) with a body that can be easily discarded to venture the depths of virtual reality, e-scapists excel in creating virtual environments and achieving wonders with creativity and imagination. Sprites are envisioned as true companions with their own personalities and tend to take unique forms that are reported to be more “alive” than those of other technomancers.

And as to slipping into VR, a 'Mancer doesn't have to bring up their Complex Forms (if I read the rules correctly), as they are "always on" unless they will them not to be, which makes it many times easier to go VR than for a Decker who has to load programs in sqeuence. It's not the logon for a Decker that's time consuming - it's bringing up their programs.

That help any?

So a technomancer can slip back and forth between AR and VR whenever with no penalty or action required to switch?

You're going to make me look up if it's a complex or a simple action to log in? OK, hold on. *grin* Gods bless PDFs.

[Edit: Added below quotes]

Complex Action - Log On (System): SR4A, P.131
You open a subscription to a node, and your icon appears there. This requires no test, but does require either the proper authentication to an account (such as a passcode) or a hacked account. You also need a connection to the node’s device, either with a wired connection or a wireless connection (by being within mutual Signal range or establishing a route across multiple devices).

And

Free Action - Switch Interface Mode (System): SR4A, P.229
You switch your perception from AR to VR or vice versa. Note that switching to VR causes your body to go limp, so do not do it in dangerous places. If you switch from VR to AR, you might lose one or more Initiative Passes (p. 145). If your connection is jammed open by a black IC attack (SR4A, p. 237), you cannot switch interface modes.

That what you were asking?

Thanks, really appreciate that.

Null sweat. Happy to help. Thats what we're supposed to be here for. Many's the time where I stopped banging my head against the wall long enough to ask a question here which got me fixed up quick-like. It's Karma, so far as I'm concerned. *grin*

While in VR, if you want to do anything in the Meat World you have a -6 to do so... makes it kind of difficult for the Character to accomplish much... Technomancers and Hackers have the same issues in VR... though the Technomancer is generally more powerful there, and does not have an inherent need for a RAS override, becuse he does not have that hardware to override, as it were... but the fact is, he would still be trying to interact with the Matrix at the same time he is trying to act in the Meat... this is very difficult to do...

My Solution has always been to use AR primarily, with VR ONLY when absolutely necessary...

I have yet to see Technomancers treated any differently than Hackers when it comes to the VR/Meat Interactions issue...

Hope that means anything... it is kind of jumbled...

Keep the Faith

Of course, then they can take the Multiprocessing Echo and Macro twice, and they fundtion normally in both, and with double-Overclocking, they get 5 passes. Up to four in meat space and always a fifth reserved for VR. But we're talking four Echoes, and if you go with Biowire and the meat-speed bumps, that jumps to eight. Eight Echoes is a PILE of Karma that's not improving Resonance or CFs. And you don't have the durability of a Sammy.

Indeed it is... It ain't ever cheap to be the best in the Matrix...

Keep the Faith

Huh?
- Multiprocessing lets you keep an eye on several nodes at once
- Macro gives you another complex action per IP, limited to non-combat matrix actions and with a -2 modifier. And it can only be taken once
- Overclocking + Advanced OC gives you +2 Response and two extra IPs in VR
None of this gives you any advantages in the meat world, although you could probably argue the multiprocessing echo has some effect outside the matrix.


As far as addiction goes...can one be addicted to a natural sense?

By RAW, you can become addicted to Hot Sim VR and since TMs always enter VR that way, so can they.

Technomancers when they go VR are considered to be hot sim. They are not actually hot sim. This is there natural state. So no Addiction problem for TM's. Having them get addicted to it is like having a mage addicted to astral projection.

Acceleration Echo (3) gives extra +3 reaction and +3 IP in meat space, but not matrix.
Overclocking + Double Overclocking is only in VR not in meat space.
Multiprocessing doesn't allow you extra IP in meat space. It allows you to move at your Matrix initiative with out the extra IP's

Uhm… and why would the rules reference hot sim, then?

Did you see Kerenshara's post and my post up above? See p133 Unwired for a few stories about how near-constant VR has affected a few different technomancers. Hot sim VR is "realer than real" and that's the way the Matrix always is to a technomancer.

For an addict, our real world is just the dream world where they have to find a new vein and change catheters before plugging back in. (There was another story about that somewhere.)

Luckily, they can choose to go AR without their Living Persona. They won't have their +2 dice bonus to everything in the Matrix and they'll only have 2 IP in the Matrix, but at least there's no chance of addiction and you don't pass out when you go online (although you might get distracted by outside sounds/senses).

Edit: Apparently Triggvi posted some of this above...

- Multiprocessing grants an extra Observe In Detail Action, as well as the ability to monitor multiple nodes at once...
- I believe that Kerenshara might have been referring to Acceleration, rather than Macro, which grants a Meat pass, and can be taken 3 times for cumulative effect...
- The fact that Overclocking and Acceleration do not stack with each other really sucks for the Technomancer, forcing him to have to purchase both if he wants the benefits if increases actions in the Matrix and Meat worlds... The hacker has it easy as it just requires the purchase of hardware, which is generally easier than expending Karma...
-So for maximum passes in the Meat (4 Passes) and Matrix (5 Passes), you would need to Submerge at least 6 times; 4 for Biowire and 3 levels of Acceleration, and another 2 for Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking... that is a serious drain on Karma just to act a little faster...

The thought that you can be addicted to a natural sense is interesting... for the Hacker, VR Addiction is a real threat to worry about... but sense that is the natural choice for Technomancers, can it be addictive... I would say yes, because it provides the same experience to both, though I might provide a bonus to the resistance of the addiction to the Technomancer...

Definitely Something to look at...

Keep the Faith

You are thinking of cold sim not AR, but Tm's can do AR, but they can't do cold sim.

Technomancers are always attuned to the matrix, even when they are not in VR. The Matrix is a part of them, they are not whole without it. TM spend hours and hours on the Matrix in meditation and realm searches. There is no where (that I can find) that says that they become BTL junkies. No, they are not BTL addicted. It is like magic to a mage.

No where is there does it even hint that they become BTL addicts.

Mesh reality, not multiprocessing


@Rotbart and Tymeaus: An addiction needs a stimulus which gives some sort of reward. But if something is just the way things normally go, does that "mormalness" really qualify as a reward? Sure, TMs get edgy or catatonic if they are withdrawn from the matrix - that's just the way humans react to partial sensory deprivation. For example, these rooms with walls which swallow every sound reflection make most people feel uneasy after some time, a few people will even become sick right away. THat does not mean we are addicted to hearing, just that messing with our senses can have any number of psychologic and psychosomatic effects.

Of course hot sim addiction is just one of a huge variety of possible matrix-related addictions, people today also get addicted to the internet or parts thereof without any hot sim. And given their constant contact with the matrix, technomancers will be very suspectible to things like media junkie (quality from unwired), AR porn addiction or excessive MMORPG usage.

Don't confuse TMs getting edgy in the complete "silence" of a dead zone with the addiction to Better-than-Life signal intensity.

You are right about reality mesh. I was lazy and didn't add it.

Of course personality has a lot to do with people. I was commenting that they don't automatically have BTL addiction. They were confusing VR hotsim through a sim module with a TM VR. One is shoving a persons perception to were it wasn't suppose to go in the first place. The other is a natural extention of themselves.

Mesh Reality really is a pretty good state, except for the -4 for Combat/Cybercombat actions if performed simultaneously, though Macro will reduce such penalties (-2 instead of -4)

As for the Addiction reference above...

Understood, there are myriad ways to mimic the addiction of someone who is becomming dependant upon the feed of Hot SIM VR... I am not sure exactly that a Technomancer could be addicted to their natural sense, though they sure act like they are addicted to the feed, as evidenced in the text for Technomancers... and as such, I would go with the fact that they ARE obviously addicted to that feed, but they have no mechanics related to it, because they are always capable of feeling the rush should they want to, and in fact do keep themselves connected 24/7/365 unless someone takes an active attempt to sever that connection... It is very dificult to completely cut a Technomancer off from the Matrix/Resonance... But when you are, they start to go a little crazy...

Seems pretty addictive to me, even if it is a natural state of existence... Hell, you can even make the argument that Sensory Deprivation for extended periods of time has the exact same effect for normal humanity, and it has been shown to cause disorders if pushed to far... So in effect, yes, we ARE addicted to the senses that we possess, for when we are deprived of them, we start to go a little crazy...

And before the obvious counter comes out, yes, you can be a well adjusted individual that is Blind and/or Deaf... For people that have never known that sense, it is very easy to adjust compared to those who have lived with it for a very long time, and then suddenly lose access to something that they have never been without...

Keep the Faith

Well, my problem with the word "addiction" is that an addiction does not just encompass withdrawal symptoms if the addict can't get his kick. An addict develops a constantly increasing tolerance (which has to be met with a higher doses or spending more time on it), his thinking becomes compulsively focused on getting the next fix, and all parts of his life and person start deteriorate exponentially over time.

If you just define hot sim addiction as "he needs it and starts acting funny when not jacked in for some time", most technomancers certainly are addicted or at least close. But if you consider the full consequences of an addiction you would doom every emerged character - the physiological and psychological consequences of an addiction will not let somebody survive for long in the sprawl, much less will a burnout addict be capable of shadowrunning.

Sure... which is why by default, they do not have the Addiction Quality... But I would say that they certainly could if the player (and GM) thought that it was appropriate... my only problem with applying the quality is that they can always fulfill the addiction, since they are just a thought away... so it is generally inappropriate in that regard, thoguh I guess that it is no different than a character addicted to Longhaul, as long as he has planned accordingly...

You can place a Technomancer out of the VR realm though, as they are able to use AR to hack with... so I guess, that they could "Kick" the habit of VR by not using it until "Cured" of the addiction, but for a Technomancer specifically, it can become a never ending cycle of addiction and therapy, as they always have access to the addictive substance... no different from a Hacker, actually, but it is easier for a Hacker to avoid VR than it is for a Technomancer...

Keep the Faith

I'd expect pretty much all TM's would have both SIM and matrix addictions, in the same sense that a lot of internet users have net addictions (I know I do) or coffee drinkers have cafine addictions (again, self confessed). And so what? I think its safe to assume that being a TM makes you immune to the worst effects of SIM addiction (seeing as the SIM is part of your natural neurology), and if you aren't getting your matrix fix as a TM, you are doing something very wrong.

One way to model this would be to give the character a mild allergy / phobia (regarding prolonged periods without matrix / hot SIM use) and immunity to hot sim addiction (or at least any lasting physical effects there-from).

And how does a TM percieve the AR? With his biological, "hot" sim-module

Hot sim addiction is not an addiction to using the matrix via VR, it's an addiction to the neurological stimulation from a sim module. And just like an alcoholic cannot just have a few beer with his friends, a hot sim addict would be in trouble even when exposed to signal levels which are considered safe for healthy persons. The only way an addicted hacker (emerged or not) could kick his habit would be to restrict himself to AR gloves and image links...even that could be too close to the real thing and cause a relapse.

If hot sim is addictive for technomancers (and not just in the sense we are "addicted" to seeing or hearing), they are screwed. They wouldn't just fade like otaku, but really burn out or become completely nuts (ie. dissonant) when they grow older.

Um, actually... no. (To the first part) Per the information in Unwired, you need to keep a sharp distinction between the 'Mancer's inate ability to interact with the digital world around them and their biological node. When they aren't VR, they're "perceiving" the AROs around them and interacting subconciously, but in no way is it VR - they aren't vulnerable to Black IC or similar attacks. So if they restricted themselves to AR only, they'd be fine. But again, it's just a genuine high, not instantly addictive. Otherwise, all 'Mancers and high-end Deckers would be drooling veggies with IVs hooked up to permanent NutriJacks™ in their arms.

And thanks for finding the right Echo for me (Mesh Reality) Sengir. You knew what I meant even if I was too lazy to double check what I wrote. I'm really new to dealing with the detailed Crunchy Bits™ of Technomancers, so I'm nowhere as fluent as I am with say, the Awakened. The idea I was trying to pass was that with a pile of Echoes, a 'Mancer could get to 4 Meat OR VR passes and a 5^th pass in VR only but able to be in both simultaneously for just a net -2 penalty with the right other Echoes. The problem, of course, is that people with four passes have this tendency OOC to start thinking they're Samurai, right up until the Bad Guy hoses them down with lead and they discover that speed alone does not a Sammy make.

Well Said... Much better than I said...

Keep the Faith

Unwired p.35 says:



Which to me means that they suffer no penalties for using hot-sim and cannot be addicted.

e-scapists sounds to me like the VR equivalent of "comfort" eaters.

No, when in AR he can still walk around -- the Matrix is overlayed on reality. When in VR, his body goes limp because he's not really "there" anymore -- it's like an astrally perceiving mage.

I feel that that means he suffers from the addiction with no mechanical representation of that... the fluff clearly indicates that withdrawal from Hot-SIM VR is hard on a Technomancer... they have all the indicators of Addiction, just none of the mechanical drawbacks... it is a social thing...

Interpretation, I know, but there it is...

Keep the Faith

I didn't claim that they are in VR, I pointed out that even in AR, a technomancer is still using the equivalent of a sim module. A sim module is the "modem" which translates computer signals into neural input, so everybody who is using a trode net, implanted DNI, or his "biological commlink" to acess AR is still using a sim module. And if you are addicted to the neural feed from a sim module after using a too strong signal for too long, that means perceiving AR with a sim module is feeding the habit and will trigger the urge to get MORE - just like a person who got addicted to alcohol after too many strong drinks can't just cure himself by drinking only beer. Even if it's the worst watery piss beer.



And 100 virtual cookies to Achsin for a RAW reference, although I certainly enjoyed the discussion.

No doubt that it is the Sim Module interface that you have to contend with, but even without HOT Mods, it is STILL the SIM Module that is interpreting the signal for the brain... you can use a Hot-SIM Modded module and still transmit at acceptable limits so that you are not experienceing the HOT SIM Effect... you do that always in Cold SIM and AR as a matter of fact... It is not until you boost that signal to Hot Sim Levels that you will have a problem...

The fact that you can satisfy the addiction by just a thought is the real problem with addiciton to HOT-SIM VR... the levels of Cold SIM and AR are just not strong enough, and that Hot Sim is just a blink away... the fact that you get additional benefits (along with the obvious drawbacks) is why using that HOT-SIM is so tempting... Using it is just positive reinforcement, and it will likely make you just want to go right back to it whenever you are accessing the Matrix (assuming that you are in a position to do so that is, not everyone likes just going limp in public places)... After all, you are powerful in HOT VR (yeah I know, +2 Dice is not POWERFUL, but it is the rush of that additional ability that is really addicting)...

Keep the Faith

Keep the Faith

There Matrix sense is as inborn for them as sight is. It you were suddenly blind, you would edgy and scared too. When they are cut off form the matrix they react like a they have just become blind or deaf, suddenly. In effect they have. That doesn't sound like an addiction to me.

Christ, do I have to repeat the alcoholic example again? Exposing an addict to his vice triggers the addiction mechanims hardwired in the brain. It does not matter how much you water it down.

What you are missing is that a Technomancer is really no different from a Hacker in the regard that they can use a Hot-SIM Modified Module in modes that do not expose them to those levels of signal by using Cold Sim or AR...You are right that it is a risk, and I have stated it as such... but it can be avoided if desired... expecially since the Technomancer does not HAVE to use those HOT-SIM Levels to be on the Matrix...

For example... Just because an alchoholic is susceptible to alchoholic drinks (those things that play upon his addiction), he is not triggering the behavior if he drinks Tea... By the same Token, Just because a Technomancer has a problem with Hot-SIM doe snot mean thta he has the same problem with AR or Cold SIM... they are completely different things (There are No Hot Modified SIM Signals, which is his trigger)

The fact is that he will need to resist to temptation... Yes... but as a Technomancer does not actually have that addiction (They cannot gain it by RAW, though I do think it could be very thematic) as a negative quality, there is no real mechanical effect to resolve, and it becomes all fluff...

Keep the Faith

Technomancers don't use sim modules at all. They project themselves in the matrix and not through a sim module. They are not abusing there brains like a hot sim hacker would with a sim module or some one using BTL. Technomancers can have lot of flaws or even vices that are self imposed, BTL from using there inborn talents is not one of them.

Ethanol and caffeine are two completely different substances...


...whereas the difference between hot and cold simsense is merely in the peak levels of the signal, which equates the concentration of an addictive chemical.

I think the idea of Technomancers being penalized for something that they do instinctively is just bad. I mean come on, in the very beginning TM's suck and they suck BADLY! Why hit them any harder than what they're getting hit with already? Do you penalize Sammy for their 'ware? Do you punish the Awakened for their magic?

Technomancers have an automatic biofeedback filter based on their Charisma. The Biofeedback filter shields them from the bad effects of simsense (pg 233 SR4A):

*shrug* It's possible that's how simsense works, Sengir. It's a game and we don't know. Hot sim may be qualitatively different from cold sim; it certainly functions in a categorically different way in the game mechanics of Black IC. Hot sim addiction also certainly functions wholly separate from cold sim in the game mechanics as well.

In fairness, KCKitsune, focus addiction is a big problem, and even augmentation addiction exists.

You may want to check up on focus addiction again. You have to be running your magic rating x 2 in active foci on a regular basis to even qualify. For a starting mage (with easily achievable 5 magic), that is a combined total of 10 from all their foci.

Also, as was already posted, TMs are immune to Hot-SIM addiction (this is different from something that acts like an addiction, such as Media-junkie, which is very similiar to a TMs addiction to wireless signals)

Luckily it is a game with source books, Unwired has a chapter on simsense

The only difference between hot and cold sim are certain parts which get filtered out by a peak controller: Signals which would fry the brain instead of merely stimulating it, everything that messes with the autonomous nervous system (breathing, heartbeat etc.), and too frequent or too strong stimulation of the "pleasure centers" in the brain. Everything else remains the same, and there is also mention of sublimal advertisement via AR.

That is, the effects of hot sim may be qualitatively different from cold sim. The fact that they are very similar in form doesn't change that at all.

I feel like 10 points of foci is a tiny threshold, but your mileage may vary.

If you aren't holding onto a decent rating power focus, maybe. Otherwise that is room for a rtg 4 power focus and 2 rtg 3 sustaining without chance for addiction.

On the subject of Hot-SIM addiction I would say that cold sim would not immiediately restart the addiction process because it isn't the same amount of stimulus trigger. It feels less than real instead of more than real ... in fact, I could see it being used as a substitute for addicts, much like how we use Methadone currently.

I'm afraid I'd have to disagree with this. Continuing the alcoholic comparison, it's like handing one a beer and saying it's not real liquor because the concentration's lower.

Which is so easy to get (10 points of Foci) that it is not even funny... Hell, I have seen characters with high Teen levels (the one I remember was about 17 points worth) of Foci in the past...



They are indeed not-susceptible to the actual mechanics of SIM Addiction... but the fluff describes a pretty good picture of an addict when they are disconnected... there is no mechanics (as I have said earlier), but it is a great roleplaying thing in my opinion... and it is interesting that you chose to use Wireless Signal Addiction for the Technomancers, because by the mechanics, they do not have that either... they just act like they do when they are disconnected... interesting indeed)...

Keep the Faith